Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast

The Descent

• David Gwartney / J.R. Gwartney • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this final recap of our trip to Greece in October 2022, we discuss The Descent.  What does it look like to experience the sacred and then return to normal life?  While we are tempted to capture that experience in the moment or recreate an experience for others, those attempts rarely work.  So what are we supposed to bring home with us?  In this episode, we discuss our take-aways from the trip, but also discuss that larger issue of how encountering the sacred should change us.

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David:

Greetings, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast. Thanks for listening today. My name is David Gwartney, and with me is JR Gwartney.

J.R.:

Hey, how are you doing? Everything good?

David:

Yeah, doing all right, doing all right.

J.R.:

Nice and warm in Tampa, I'm sure.

David:

Yeah, it is. Yeah. How's it, how's the weather in Tennessee?

J.R.:

We got, uh, 60 degrees and I'm absolutely loving. It makes me wanna, yeah, take my shirt off and run around the street without if I didn't get arrested.

David:

Nice. Nice.

J.R.:

Yeah, super nice up here, which is probably cold for you, I'm guessing.

David:

Uh, it was chilly. It was chilly yesterday, but yeah, it was, it was fifties. Yeah.

J.R.:

Well, I'm headed down to<cold> Florida this week, so, uh, I'll be, I'll be glad to get some warm weather.

David:

Yeah, a little bit of break from, well, Tennessee winters aren't that bad.

J.R.:

No, that's not too bad.

David:

So today we're gonna talk about, we're gonna wrap up the Greece series. We've talked several episodes now about our trip to Greece that we took in last October, and we wanna put a bow on this series and talk about something that we talked about on the very last night on our trip. And we were sitting in Thessaloniki, I can remember it like it was yesterday.

J.R.:

Ah, yes.

David:

One of the themes on our trip that hopefully we've had a chance to listen to those podcasts about The Ascent. But that was a major theme on our, our, our trip. When we talk about The Ascent, we're talking about rising to a spiritual experience and how in the ancient world they understood that there was so much physical in that, you literally had to climb to ascend. And so we talked about the ascent the whole trip. But on the last night, I think it hit us these we started talking about, okay, what are we gonna take home? and then I think it hit us that, yeah, we're talking about The Decent now, right?

J.R.:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, because getting ready for our flight we're, we're, you know, packing everything up literally, and, and kind of, it, it did, it, it was kind of fed into that entire, idea that we were there, that we had when we were there about, well, we got it. What goes up must come down and, and we're about to head back to real life, right?

David:

Right. If you, uh, unless you're a monk in Meteora, I think, um, you know, if you have this spiritual experience, whether it's a trip in Greece like we did, or whether it's a, I'm thinking a lot of things, you know, summer camp or a, or a church conference, or just a vacation of your own, you know, there's always that point where you have to come back to reality. And I say a monk in Meteora, but, uh, maybe it got routine up there for them as well, you know?

J.R.:

Uh, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't see how it could you know what, I, I was, I thought about this, uh, you know, you were talking about up in Tennessee here, that it's, the weather's not that bad. I remember the first time I came, I came up here for college and, uh, the first time I experienced a real winter with snow and everything like that. And then it went into, into spring and summer and fall. The falls here are gorgeous, because the leaves change colors. And I remember the very first time I experienced it, I was like, this is, it's gorgeous. I love the weather up here. And about the time you get sick of it, it changes and<Yeah> uh, you know how you go to different places and you're like, uh, the mountains or something, you're like, man, this would never get old. But the truth is just like everything we, it, it becomes mundane. And I don't think about the weather anymore. I don't think about how the, the leaves change. It's just, I've been here too long. Right. And so if you lived on the mountaintop, I assume that, you know, even in Meteora, uh, you just stop noticing the sunset or something like that. I, I, you know, it becomes, it becomes routine, I guess.

David:

Yeah, that's true. I can see, uh, you know, I think of those monasteries in Meteora with the monks up there and I, there probably is a point at which they kind of are looking down, going,"I wonder what all those people are doing down there."

J.R.:

What's the big deal, right?

David:

Yeah. So anyway, we're gonna talk today about this idea of The Descent. So we've talked about The Ascent. Now we're gonna talk about The Descent. And when we talk about The Descent, what we're really talking about is not just us prepping to come home, but really two or three ideas at a higher level. You know, what, what are we meant to take away from a a, an amazing spiritual experience? What, what are we supposed to bring back with us and share with other people? And are we supposed to change any, or is it just something that we experienced and we kind of, you know, write it down, take some pictures, and then just go home. And that's the end of it, which I don't think that's the case, but that's what we're talking about with the descent. When you have a spiritual experience or an amazing moment, what is it that you're supposed to capture and bring home? And, you know, we talked about this, um, we talked about the futility of trying to take pictures of what we were seeing because it, it just doesn't capture the experience at all. Right? But it's our, it's our lame attempt to try and capture an experience, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. I think that's the first mistake I, I don't know that it's a mistake but it's one of the first mistakes we make is the attempt to try to capture the moment. And, uh, and we, we realized this in Egypt, when you take a picture of the pyramids, you know, everybody's seen the pyramids. You can google the pyramids. It's nothing special. but we, you know, we are, when you're standing at the base of it, man, it is an entire different perspective. And so the immediately, the immediate thought is to grab your phone. It's like, man, lemme take a picture of this. You know, because I'm sure nobody's ever taken this picture, right?

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

And this will really capture it and I'll show my friends on my, on my three-inch screen, on my phone, right? And, and it's just one of those things that's something impulsive that we do. Uh, and, and so that's kind of what we were talking about as far as The Ascent is, is it a mistake to try to capture it, because we know that with pictures you can't capture it. I mean, cuz you come back and you j- it's just not the same, you know?<Yeah> Uh, it's so, so is it a mistake to try to capture it to begin with much less take it with you?

David:

Yeah, and that's the question I, and I think our first reaction is always to say, I wanna capture this. And you were talking about, you know, pictures on your phone. And of course I have, you know, 500 pictures on my phone from the, the trip. And I go back and look at'em. And at some point, you know, in one sense, yeah, it does take me back to that moment. But in another sense, I look at the picture and, you know, that's a very poor representation of what it was like to be, you know, at the pyramids or, you know, on top of the Acropolis or something like that.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And or a sunset, I think of a sunset, you know, um, when I go to the cabin, there's always a beautiful sunset. And I always take pictures and what's the point, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and maybe that's it. Is, is that you just said it, it takes you back to that moment.

David:

Yeah. Yeah.

J.R.:

But we mistake it by saying that it'll take other people to that moment and it doesn't even come close.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

And maybe that's what we're trying to do when we capture, we're like,"I can't wait to show people this." And if, maybe, if you're trying to capture it, uh, with the idea that, man, I want to bring this moment back to my own mind, even when I come back home, then there, there may be some, there may be some value in that. Uh, but so many times we try to capture it to show other people, you know, for the other people to have the experience. And it's like, yeah, you're, it's just not even close.<Yeah> You can't do that.<Yeah> And, and it actually gets in the way. And that's what we were talking about is, is how many times, uh, is trying to capture the moment actually interfering with the moment itself.

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

And can you do that too much?

David:

Because yeah, we talked about that because you can find yourself, trying to capture, take a picture of that sunset, you know, or we were in Meteora watching the sunset, you know, everyone gets their cameras. But it was, it was actually funny on Meteora because everyone had their cameras out. But there was a moment where I think everyone just stopped because it was almost awe.

J.R.:

Yeah, no, that was exactly right. And, and it's these big boulders and rocks and people are running around and playing and, the closer the sun got to the horizon and when it started hitting and it really started dropping, it was like everybody settled down. Everybody stopped playing. It was kind of like everybody's, everybody stopped. It was silent. There were conversations going on earlier. Y you know, uh, it's, it sounded, you know, cuz there were dozens of people up there. but yeah, it was interesting how everybody, just kind of instinctively stopped talking and, uh, we all gazed at the same direction. Everybody was looking at the same thing. Everybody was perfectly quiet. Even the kids and stuff like that.<Yeah> and it was it was kind of this universal, understanding of, of we're seeing something beautiful and so let's respect that.

David:

And it was kind of a rare moment too, because, you know, how many times are you in a crowd like that and everyone's trying to take pictures or record something so they can take it back, post it on social media. I think that's probably the big temptation nowadays. And like you said, you actually miss just that moment of awe<yeah> that you saw.

J.R.:

Yeah. No, I think you're right.

David:

I remember being at a John Mayer concert this is probably the very beginning of the really social media craze, everyone pulling out their phones, taking pictures and I remember being at a John Mayer concert and he started the concert by just saying, after he played the intro song or something like that, he paused and just said,"All right, can I just make a request?" He goes,"Everyone, just put your phones down. Just put your phones down and let's just listen to music tonight." And I remember that very distinctly because I thought it was such a cool thing to say, you know,"Hey, put your phones down. Don't try and record this." You know, your friends aren't gonna want to hear an hour's worth of, you know, John Mayor concert through your phone. You know, it doesn't capture being at that concert, you know?

J.R.:

Right, And it, and it's just one of those things where, where it's, that's kind of always been the case. We go to live shows because we want to see it live but it does seem like it's more of a contemporary thing to, to, to pull out a phone and try to capture it. And, and, and I, I guess it's because we're carrying around cameras all the time in our phones and things like that, but it, it is interesting to see that, we pay the a lot of money to, to go hear the music live, but then we turn around and try to capture it on our phone when we've got Spotify. There were studio versions of these songs that are better you know, that are gonna sound better than what you're recording. Uh, you know, why are we trying to capture it? But I, I actually went to a Mayer concert and he said the same thing at, at mine also, you know.<Yeah> So<same tour> it's a good idea. Yeah, probably.<Same tour> Probably, yeah. Yeah. It's like, man, yeah. Let's, let's be in the moment here. Let's, let's take in this moment. This is why you're here. Let's all do this together. Let's all gaze at this sunset together, so to speak. And, uh, enjoy the moment and quit trying to grab it and take it home with you.

David:

And I can imagine an artist up on stage, you know, playing to, uh, well it's hard to imagine for me, but, you know, playing to a whole room full of people and just looking out and seeing a bunch of phones pointing at you and you just want to go,"Ugh, put your phones away." You know?

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah.

David:

Like, put your phones away. So as a contrast to that John Mayer concert, it's funny because my wife and I just went to a Bonnie Rait concert. The crowd, you know, noticeably older, but<Sure> the concert started and Bonnie's playing and, and there was a moment where my wife looked at me and she said,"Look around. Do you notice anything?" And I looked around and I said,"Yeah, nobody has their phones up." You know, and that was probably the, probably the over 50, over 60

J.R.:

They're all our age. That's right.

David:

Yeah. It never even, it never even occurred to them to like pull their phone out and start recording and Bonnie didn't even have to make that announcement, you know, but

J.R.:

That, that is funny. Well it is funny how it's just younger people are, are wired. They instinctively think to pull out their phone. And sometimes that's a good thing, you know?<Oh, yeah> I can't tell you how many times I've, I've, I've thought, man, I wish, uh, so-and-so could see this. And my daughter's with me and she's like,"Well, you know, you got a phone, send her FaceTime'em." You know, or something like that. And it's like, oh yeah, I guess I could do that, right?

David:

I can do that? Yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. But they instinctively think that way, whereas it's, it's an extra step for us. And, uh, so yeah, I'd say our age group is certainly when it comes to concerts or stuff like that, are, are better at maybe just enjoying the moment. But if you're younger generation, yeah, there, there may be that kind of instinct to capture it. And, uh, I think that's kind of what we're talking about The Descent is not trying to capture it or that actually interferes with the moment. And there are ways that you can come back and, and relive the moment. We'll talk about that here in a little bit. But, uh, yeah, for the time being, man, the first, first step I think is to not try to hold onto it, not try to, uh, take it with you because it's, uh, it's, it's meant to be experienced fully in the moment. And, any attempt to try to hold onto it actually makes the moment more elusive. And we don't realize this in the moment, but it, it definitely does. Sure.

David:

Yeah, I think that's a good summary of maybe the very first thing that we realized is when you have an experience like that, really avoid trying to capture it via, you know, a phone or, or, or something else. I guess it's all in a phone now, but

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

David:

In other words, like, don't miss, don't miss, I guess that moment of awe. Don't miss the moment of awe because you're trying to capture something that you can't bring back with you anyway, I guess.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

And there's

J.R.:

Well, awe is, awe is focused attention.

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

And anything, anything that you, you know, you've had a conversation with somebody where they've pulled their phone out and uh,"Yeah, hold on real quick. Just lemme send this text out." And it, and it, and it breaks the, it, it breaks the conversation, it break, you know, kind of just takes away from it a little bit and, and us doing that in the moment actually has that same effect. So awe is focused attention and anything that we do to try to capture that actually breaks that focus.

David:

Yeah, well said. Well, one of the Bible stories I guess that we, I, I thought of when we were talking about this and you know, again, we were sitting in, in Thessaloniki in our hotel room, we had just had some coffees and pastries and we were about to walk on the waterfront. And as we were talking about some of this very ideas, one of the stories from the Bible that came to mind was The Transfiguration. And so we started talking about that, you know, how the transfiguration well, do you have it up?

J.R.:

Uh, yeah. Yes. Matthew 17.<Yeah> yeah. After six days, Jesus took, took with him Peter, James and John. They went up on a high mountain by themselves, and there he was transfigured before them. His face shown like the sun and his clothes became white as the light. Then there appeared, Moses, and Elijah talking with Jesus. And this is what you were talking about, Peter said to Jesus,"Lord, is it good for us to be here? If, if you wish, I'll put up three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah."

David:

Yeah. Yeah. So I thought about that verse that you just read there, Matthew 17:4. And you know, I wonder if that was the ancient version of how do I capture this moment, you know? So

J.R.:

Yeah, he has the phone out.

David:

Yes, we have the transfiguration. You know, Jesus is there and then next to'em appears Moses, Moses and Elijah. And you know what is poor Peter, we always pick on Peter but you know, Peter's the one who blurts out you know,"It's good for us to be here. Let's put up three shelters." Let's try and capture this moment. And I, I was laughing about that cuz I really do think maybe that was the ancient version of, you know, taking out your iPhone."Hold, hold on guys. Let me try and video this" You know?

J.R.:

Yeah. Y'all gets closer together. Get in the, get in the frame. Yeah. Let's type that type thing. You're right.

David:

Wait to, yeah. How many, uh, how many likes am I gonna get when I post this video, you know?

J.R.:

Right.

David:

So, but it, it is interesting that Peter's reaction was, you know, how do we keep this moment going? How do we just stay here? And I think you and I had talked about before that, uh, when he says,"I will put up three shelters" there's a, a actually a lot of meaning in that idea of putting up a shelter because I think in our minds, we think he just wanted to like throw a tent up or something, you know?<Right> A couple of camping chairs and we're like, well, what's that about? That's weird. But actually what it was is, when people would assemble, when different tribes and, uh, leaders would assemble, especially in a nomadic culture, like out in the desert, they would put up tents. And the tents symbolize that we're about to have a meeting, we're about to assemble, right?

J.R.:

Right.

David:

And so when you kind of understand that backdrop drop of it, it makes a little more sense. And the positioning of the tents, you know, would be very important. The most important person would have the big tent right in the middle, and whoever was on the tent, you know, on one side and the other that kind of gave everyone their rank and order there. So actually what Peter's doing kind of makes sense. You know, hey, if we're gonna have a big assembly here, why don't we start putting up shelters so we can, you know, this is gonna be a several day thing. And of course, Jesus' response is actually, I'm looking at the, I'm reading through this right now, and Jesus doesn't really even acknowledge him. He probably just rolled his eyes, but you know,

J.R.:

Yeah, he just ignores him. Yeah, moves on.

David:

But you know, the whole, I, the whole idea is like, he doesn't even really acknowledge the comment because the idea is that like,"No, Peter, we're not gonna do that." and then he's transfigured and they disappear and the moment's gone. But can you imagine if can you imagine if like, Peter's off getting, you know, wood for shelters and they disappear and

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.<You know> And he missed out on it. Right. And he missed it because he was trying to prepare to hold it. That's right.

David:

So I thought there was an interesting story around this, uh, you know, idea of trying to capture a moment. It's not a new thing. It goes all the way, you know, back to the very beginning. Somehow, you know, someone had a, in a cave, you know,"Hold on, let me try and chisel this into stone." You know?

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and when we went to Jerusalem, it was like this, it was kind of a little bit different. I didn't realize that, you know, when we're going to, uh, the traditional sight of, of Jesus' crucifixion or the tomb, you're not going into a cave and you're not the cross, you know, the, you're not seeing a hole in the ground where the cross was.<Yeah> It's just a, a tabernacle. it's a church now. And so you walk inside this gorgeous cathedral and they're like, yeah, here's the traditional site right here in this corner. And it's like, wow, that's kind of interesting. And so there is, there is kind of a tendency and instinct to want to memorialize, commemorate a site or a situation by building a shelter, or maybe a tabernacles is a better word. so that we can come revisit this place and I think that's what Jesus was well, Jesus' non-response to Peter might have been saying,"No, just be here in the moment. There'll be a time later if you want to, if you wanna come back and stack some rocks, that's fine"<Yeah, yeah>"but right now, right now, be here right now."

David:

Yeah. And yeah, so, and that was pretty common thing throughout the Bible is, you know, actually memorializing something by piling rocks. They did that in the Old Testament and you know, we've done things to memorialize places, but that's a little bit different than saying, I want to capture this moment, what's happening right now, you know?

J.R.:

Right, right.

David:

Because you don't start building rocks in the moment, because like you said, I like that idea of awe is focused attention of, you know, you can't be in awe if you're out gathering rocks, right, to memorialize something.

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right that's right.

David:

You're gonna miss the awe.

J.R.:

Sure, sure. Yeah, exactly.

David:

Well, so we've kind of talked about what not to do, but then, you know, you and I started talking about, so what are we supposed to take back with us?

J.R.:

Yeah. I think that, uh, I think that's, well, that's the, that's what we're trying to figure out is, is how much of it do you try to capture in the moment? And, and we kind of covered that about, well, first of all be in the moment. But then how do we relive that? Because, you know, there is, I mean, we are supposed to, come down. We are supposed to descend, but we're not supposed to descend the same way. You know, we're, we're not coming back the same people we were when we, before we ascended, right?

David:

Right.

J.R.:

And so we wanna know how, what do we bring back if we're not supposed to capture the moment? What are we supposed to bring back? And, uh, well we talked about several things. just earlier in the conversations, I do think that that, that taking a quick picture or something like that can take me, does take me back. I look through my phone all the time about our trip and it does take us back. You talk, one thing that I thought was funny is, uh, we unwittingly created, a grunge, what is it? A playlist on Spotify, We put together this thing because we were listening to this I don't know we were in a grunge mood. So we're listening to 90s grunge music and Nirvana and Foo Fighters and all this kind of stuff. And we, we put together a playlist. And it's funny that when I listened to those songs, there are certain songs that I can tell you exactly where I was at in Greece when you or I were, were listening to'em, you know? It's so weird that my mind does that. But that, I think that's an interesting thing, that we can actually go back. You can actually take it, that's, you can actually go back to that moment<Yeah> if you connect it with music or something like that. And I'm, I'm assuming that's why music is so instrumental in religious experience anyway. But, uh, a little bit disconnected idea, but, uh, as far as the grunge music. But it is interesting that it does, it pulls you back. And so there are things that we can do in the moment that we can take that with us, so to speak. But the, but also we kind of, uh, we do, we, you're right, we have to learn how to descend and how to come back to normal life. I think I made the comment at one point that, uh, it's great to fall in love, but if you've, if you got, hearts in your eyes all the time and things like that for, for your significant other then, you know, that that'll trump go into work that'll trump eating and sleeping sometimes, right? You have to, come off of that high to, to actually live life, together and move forward so yeah. How do we, how do we come down and what do we bring with us?<Yeah> And, how do you make that change, moving forward?

David:

Well, so it's interesting because I think the conclu, one of the conclusions I reached is, you know, so we're not trying to capture that moment, but we, what we can bring back with, with us, are rituals. And I heard someone else say this recently, like you know, you can ritualize something and that's a way to bring some of the experience back to share with others. So you're not saying,"Hey, here's exactly what we experienced." But here's a little ritual. And it's funny because yeah, the 90s grunge playlist was, has a total ritual. And, and we can list several of those. So here's a funny one, because I just thought of this the other day, is another music related ritual that we brought back, or at least I did, was, uh, there is a Spotify channel that is a jazz channel, of 80s and 90s songs. And so the other day I wanted something just relaxing to listen to, and I was like, yes, the 80s and 90s jazz versions of rock songs. And if you haven't heard a jazz version of say, like, uh, Metallica or Smells Like Teen Spirit, like

J.R.:

Enter Sandman, yeah.

David:

You're, you're missing something, right? You know?

J.R.:

But that play that was playing and, and we didn't find that, it was just what we noticed at several different hotels and several different restaurants.

David:

Several restaurants, yeah.

J.R.:

We were like, it's like I've heard this song before, or I understood, I, I recognized the lyrics, but I'd never heard this song. And then we figured out, it's like, man, they love these jazz covers of<Yeah> 80s and 90s, 80s and 90s songs.

David:

It became a game. It became a game. Like, okay, next song, like who's the first to recognize what you know,<Yeah> what, what song is actually playing? Cuz it's, you know, this nice smooth jazz sound going on. And then you realize, yeah, it's like Metallica, Enter Sandman or something like that.

J.R.:

Yeah. No, you're right. That ca that can be a ri ritual and it takes you back. That's exactly right.

David:

So yeah, rituals and we, we talked about cappuccino freddos, you know, we've talked about that previously as well. Like, so there are little rituals that you can bring back with you that help take you back to those moments. And I'm sure if we thought hard enough, you know, I could think of rituals that I brought back, uh, from other trips, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah. Okay. So here's a question. Can you look at rituals is, is it, uh, can you back engineer that? Does that make sense? And, and we kind of talked about it with the, with the pictures where I can look at my pictures of the pyramids and it takes me back there, but I can't take show that picture to somebody else<Right> and, and it really capture it. Well, rituals are the same way. So, so there are rituals that we come across in, in, uh, in, in different religious services and things like that. Uh, can those be back engineered to, to take you to a certain spot? Or are those rituals usually designed to take the person who's already been to a particular place back?

David:

Yeah, well

J.R.:

Does that make sense?

David:

Yeah. I, you know, I think the things we were talking about, like, I'm not gonna play a grunge list, uh, you know, to a friend of mine and go,"Hey, don't you feel like you're in Greece?" You know, like they just yeah, yeah, exactly> they just look at me But the larger idea of ritual, I, I'd have to think about, because the larger idea of ritual, I think is this idea that you are helping people collectively remember something in a very ritualized manner that they didn't really experience themselves. I mean, when you talk about like religious ritual, church ritual, that's really what it is. You know, that you're, you're, we're collectively trying to remember this.

J.R.:

Right. What do I tell my descendants? When you build the, put the stones together, for future generations to look back and they say, build a marker so that when future gen generations ask, you can tell them. So you're saying that ties into ritual or that can become a, a, a, a component of ritual so that other generations that didn't experience, uh, whatever the Red Sea crossing or whatever it is<Yeah> that, that, uh, they could be a part of that, right?

David:

Well, I think of, I think of say the Eucharist, right? Like none of us were there at the Last Supper, and yet we've ritualized it, uh, because, you know, we've been taught its meaning. We read about its meaning in the Bible. And so now every time, you know, we, we engage in the Eucharist, we're actually engaging in the ritual that goes back to the Lord Supper, but none of us were there.

J.R.:

Okay. Yeah, sure.

David:

So that would be an example of something that's been, you know, ritualized.

J.R.:

Okay. Okay. So part of the descent is to, uh, is to create, or, or perhaps part of the descent is to create a ritual?

David:

Yeah, I think, and you know, I, I, gosh, it's not obvious what those might be, but I do think, I do think, I can think back at times where I've created a ritual from say, uh, a retreat I had at a cabin. And if I were maybe teaching other people, leading a small group or something, there might be ways to start to pull that ritual in, you know, and I could say something like,"Hey, at the cabin, I always did this, and I want to kind of introduce this ritual to this group and we can participate in it together." And then, you know, I think it's a matter of like, that could become meaningful for people. So I think that's kind of a, maybe not a great way of really getting into it, but I'm still kind of processing it. But we can definitely bring back rituals for ourselves. And I think with a little thought or the rituals, I, maybe the better way to say it, is the rituals that have really wider meaning that other people will automatically, or over time, start to gravitate to those rituals and participate in something maybe that they weren't involved in initially. I, I don't know. Does that make sense?

J.R.:

Yeah, no, it does. And, and I like the idea that it calls you back. You know, obviously we weren't at the Last Supper, but at the same time, we can be called back to a moment where the Last Supper was perhaps powerful and meaningful to us. I think there's another tendency, especially in, religion in general, Western religion, particular particularly, that, that when you, when you come up with, uh, a really neat idea, and I think about this, you, you'll, you'll know where I'm going with this in, in the church, that you come up with a neat idea, something that makes a profound impact. There's a tendency to want to package that and make a book out of it and make a, uh, well, I'll go, I'll show my age, make a, a DVD set out of it and, and a, a five-week Bible study, you know, and hope that, hope that it catches and then spread it to every church you can possibly you know, because I think that's, that's, uh, an attempt at ritualization, but it's missing, it's, it's missing something, you know? And, and I think what it's missing is you're trying to generate the experience from the ground, from, from the ritual without having had the initial experience to begin with, if that makes any sense.

David:

Yeah, no, I think, I think it's definitely easy to try and manufacture an experience for people rather than just, uh, you know, ritualizing.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's a good word. A manufactured experience.<Yes> There's a, there's a lot of that, uh, that we see and, and<Yeah, so and that's not what we're talking about. Yeah, that's right.

David:

Yeah. So the, I, that's probably the second thing is, you know, what can I ritualize and maybe, uh, what can I ritualize that might be meaningful to other people without trying to manufacture an experience, right?

J.R.:

Right. Yeah, no, that's, that's a good way of putting it.

David:

Well, another thing that we had talked about, that I think we have a tendency to do, especially if you, uh, I, I think actually you mentioned this idea, if, you know, as a kid going away to summer camp,<oh, yeah> having an amazing week and thinking, you know, man, my life's really gonna change, and, you know, a week later you've completely forgotten about it.

J.R.:

Sure

David:

So, when we have a meaningful spiritual experience, when we have an ascent type of moment, I think there's a tendency to kind of overestimate the immediate impact and underestimate the small incremental changes that can happen from something like that.

J.R.:

Yeah. Th yeah, I think that's exactly right. Yeah. Cuz you want to take the, you wanna take the emotion with you and emotions, I mean, we know how it is. Sometimes you have good days and bad days, and all it takes is a rough day to blast away the emotional experience that you might have had the week before, the night before, whatever. And, uh, and so yes, so we try to carry the emotions, but what we're talking about in the descent is how do we ah, I like that word ritualize. Uh, we'll, we'll, I'll put that to the side for a little bit, but how do we, how do we make those incremental changes that, do embody the, original religious experience?

David:

Yeah, I, well, I've learned over, I, I've learned over time taking these trips and I, I keep saying that I've so I take a, a yearly retreat to a cabin, and I can definitely think of those times that it's changed me. But again, it's been in small ways. So it's not to say I'm gonna come home and everything's gonna be different. Because I, I, I come home and, you know, still have bills to pay and, you know, my wife probably has a lot of stuff for me to do around the house. So you kind of hit reality pretty quickly upon re-entry.

J.R.:

Sure.

David:

I think in any experience like that. But, you know, what are the small incremental changes? I can think back to some of the things that I've done. Uh, I remember one retreat specifically where I read a couple books and I wanted to read more, and it, so in that way it just changed what I read really, honestly, for the next several years, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, well finish that thought.

David:

Well, so that, that I just said, that's one thing. And, and so I've tried to temper how much is going to change, but also I've tried to be intentional about, okay, what are two or three things that I can take back, even if it's just what I read. Um, I'm trying to think of other examples.

J.R.:

Well, when we came back from Delphi, we both read, uh, a book called The Oracle. And it was, it was interesting cause we had that conversation. It was like, man, I wish we would've read this before we went to Delphi. And then we continued the conversation and we were like, no, I'm actually glad that we read it afterward, you know.<Yeah> Uh, because it kind of solidified, uh, uh, uh, what we saw, you know, cuz, cuz we had a context for the entire book. If I had read it before, there would've just been so too many, disjointed ideas that I didn't quite wrap, that I wouldn't have been able to wrap my head around. But once, uh, once we had been there and we'd been to the site, then we read about the Oracle, the ancient Oracle, uh, it, it, it, it kind of was another layer on top of that that really helped deepen the experience of being there. And so I, I thought about, I mean, it kind of, it, it was interesting. It was like going back when I read that book.<Yeah, yeah> So many parts of it. Uh, and so yeah, so what you read returning from, from it and, and we're talking about obviously a particular place, and we're trying to kind of overlay that with the idea of a religious experience. But yeah, what you read and what you follow up with does help kind of, it does show through in different light and, and, and you, and you hold onto it in a different way.<Right> And, and so yeah, I think, I think you're right. What you read matters afterward, hold helps hold onto it.

David:

So there's other small incremental changes, but I think the other point that I've learned is that those small incremental changes need to be directed exactly to that ordinary routine of life, right? Because that's where 95% of our life is lived, you know?

J.R.:

Right. Sure, sure.

David:

And so it doesn't do any good to go, man, I can't wait for the next trip and, and just go back to normal. But it's, it's what can, what can I change? Whether it's what I read, whether it's, you know, maybe it's a spiritual practice that you, uh, experienced for the first time and you wanna bring more into that. Maybe it's just a different perspective on some of your relationships. These are just kind of things that I, I think through when I come back from a particularly meaningful moment. But I do think it is supposed to, in very small ways, you know, affect just that day-to-day routine. It's not supposed to be the same, you know? And I think we miss the point of that if we do just go back and engage the very same way that we've always done it, you know?

J.R.:

Well, and my family all they get a kick outta me coming back from these trips because they're like, oh, he doesn't shut up about it. And, and they can be talking about whatever salad dressing and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna tie it into, oh man, you should have, you know, you should have seen the salad dressing over there, should have seen the salad dressing in Greece or something like that. So everything it is, it is funny cuz everything ties back to the trip or the experience. And we can do the same thing, uh, you know, with, with religious experiences is that, is how you come back changed. And it doesn't mean you incessantly insist on turning every conversation to uh, whatever your experience it is. But you do find that so many conversations you have will draw you back to, uh, this experience and when you join a community and, and it can be just a single conversation with one of other person or it can be the broader community. When you engage that to the community, that actually, makes the experience more tangible in your day-to-day life as well. And sometimes just reliving the, reliving the experience, using it to, inform other people about the experience. Uh, yeah, it gives you a chance to kind of talk it out and things like that. And that really makes it, uh, more of a day-to-day, how to relive that and how to bring that with you. Because if, if, if something changes you, well, what good does the change do if it doesn't reflect in your day-to-day life anyway?

David:

Yeah, absolutely.

J.R.:

So you want to come back with some kind of change and, and so if it's a genuine experience, it's going to work its way into, the cracks of your life, the day-to-day, uh, interactions that you have. And we all know that these things wear off. You know, the camp high does, does die down, but at the same time, that's the emotion. But the practical part of it that we can share with other people, that really does stick with you. And sometimes when you try to, let's say write it all down and try to try to take it with you in a concrete way, uh, maybe, maybe that's also a way that we're missing. Well, you'll just overlook, uh, all the opportunities that you're going to have, you know, when you come back to, to relive that and bring that to other people.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

that it happens more than you think.

David:

Yeah. And you know, I've had, uh, certainly I've had experiences where, you know, nothing changed because I just was oblivious to the whole thing. But I've also had other experiences where you get some feedback where I, I remember one time in particular, someone actually just said to me, they're like,"You're different since you came back." And I thought, oh wow, It's that noticeable, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah, what a compliment.

David:

Yeah, yeah. So one of, one of the things I really try to do is I, when I have those ascent type of experiences, is to, and maybe it takes a long, maybe it's all in the rear view mirror, you know? But I want to be able to look back and go, yeah, things subtly changed since that experience. And if it didn't, then, you know, I kind of wondered what I missed, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah. Or question the experience, maybe.

David:

Or question, yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah. Maybe it's not as profound as I thought it was.

David:

Yeah. Yeah. If it didn't change anything then, you know, maybe it was just a, a John Mayer concert. I don't know.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David:

Although that's not a dig against John Mayer concert. That was a great concert. But

J.R.:

No. Well, it, it is something like, you know, I think more on the lines, something surface like a video game. I could get into a video game and love it and I could, uh, you know, be a little high off of it and think, dang man, that was awesome. But, uh, you know, it's, it's not gonna enter into my conversation with other people. It's not gonna, you know, unless I'm kind of a bit of an oddball that I've gotta tell everybody about this video game that I played or something like that, right?

David:

Yeah. You don't wanna be that guy.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't wanna go there. So it's like, yeah. So, so maybe that would be a chance it feels intense and, and music can do this and movies can do this to it it feel, it, it feels intense, but you're right, if it doesn't of, uh, seep into your regular life, maybe that's an indication that I can look back and say,"Well, maybe that's not the spiritual experience that I thought it was."

David:

Right, right. Yeah, maybe it was just a fun experience. Maybe it wasn't the transfiguration, you know?

J.R.:

Right. Yeah. Maybe it was just something novel. Yeah, that's right.

David:

There's another aspect that of this that I heard actually upon returning, and I thought it was a, a, a cool idea. I think you and I have both been listening to, uh, this Exodus series led by some really great thinkers, Jordan Peterson and Jonathan<Oh, yeah> Pageau and Oz Guinness. But, so I'm gonna give them credit for this insight, but I immediately thought of us talking about The Descent was, so they're talking about, you know, Egypt represents, um, the tyranny and the goal is to get to the promised land. But then in between you have the desert they were in the desert 40 years. So there's that number that you like, right? 40.

J.R.:

Right? Yeah. Yeah. The necessary wilderness.

David:

The ne yeah. The necessary wilderness.<Right> So, you know, and our idea might have been, uh, our idea might have been to well get through the desert as fast as possible.<Sure> But they were pointing out that the desert is where they actually had these encounters with God, right? The desert is where they had the pillar of fire and the pillar of smoke, right? They didn't have that when they got to the promised land.<Right> And they had, you know, Moses striking the water, and you can read, it's funny, is you can read the Exodus story and all kinds of amazing things happen out in the desert,<Right> and they still, they complained about it.

J.R.:

Yeah. The supernatural was in the wilderness.

David:

The supernatural experiences were in the wilderness.<Right> Yeah, and once they got back to the promised land, the promised land is just their normal life, right?

J.R.:

Uh, yeah. Sure.

David:

And so I think one of the things I took away from that is the value of getting away, whether it's a retreat, whether it's a, you know, a church conference somewhere or a trip to Greece, like we took, is to, in, in a more positive sense, I guess, to go into the wilderness and have eyes open for something that you're not gonna see in your everyday life<Yeah> because that's where it happens, right?

J.R.:

Right, right. No, and that's one thing, that's one thing that's interesting about travel, and we were talking about that, is when you travel, when you leave the country, when you leave your homeland, everything is different anyway. And so your eyes are always open. It, it's, it's, I always tell people that one thing I love about travel is that, that the telephone poles are different. The cars are different.<Yeah> The, the billboards don't look the same. Every tiny aspect of life looks different. And because every aspect of life looks different, your eyes are much more wide open than if you were having the same experience in your hometown, so to speak, right?<Right, right> And so your eyes are open anyway. And then, so then it's kind of no surprise that you get these, uh, aha moments, these spiritual moments, when everything is so different and the language is different, and the food is completely different than anything you could get back home and the freddos are different and you, and, and so you have this complete experience and that is partly what opens your eyes. And that can only be done in the wilderness or it can only be done we get out of our, our own routine.<Right> So I, I agree with you. That's a, that's a good point that we can actually, uh, pull away, go on a retreat, go to the mountains, go to the cabin, that type thing, and pull away from your regular life. And that can actually, generate, again, I'm not trying to say that you can manufacture a religious experience, but it can pull you out and, and when you pull out of your day to day, your eyes are opened wider.

David:

Right. I think that's some of the prep of doing some of those things that we talk about is the expectation that, eyes wide open, I'm going to keep an eye out for, a sign from God, you know? Or not to, not to get too weird, but, you know, some kind of, uh, supernatural experience, some kind of spiritual experience. My eyes are gonna be wide open because, you know, honestly, driving around town in St. Petersburg, you know, my eyes aren't wide open to the wonder of God in the world, you know?<Right> Um, but you know, somewhere else it might be, and maybe, you know, it's, I think it's hard to do that just in your routines, your day-to-day life. I use the example sometimes, you know, I get up in the morning and I have my routine of making my coffee and breakfast and books and plop on the couch and try to read for a while, and I can do that pretty much without even thinking, you know?<Yeah> My eyes aren't wide open. But, you know, going back to Greece, you know, every breakfast we had, was a different experience. Right?<Right> It was all different. How did they make that? Ooh, what's that? You know? And so even something as simple as a breakfast, it's like

J.R.:

Yeah, what's this called?

David:

Yeah, your eyes are open to, to the wonder to experience something different. And I do think that's a big value, again, if you're prepped for it, of going on a retreat, a trip like this, um, you know, any kind of, event that takes you out of your routine.

J.R.:

That's experiencing life as a child, right. Because children, that's what they do. Everything's new to them. And so, uh, when, when my daughter was little, bitty mom had a line and she said, uh, she said, you brought her into this world. Now let her show it to you. And I thought, man, that's so true, because, you know, a kid, a two year old, a three-year-old, a four-year-old is, is on their knees and they're looking at a caterpillar in the grass."Come look at this."<Yeah> And they're just, they're just mesmerized by it. And, uh, and when you see a child interact with the world, there's something, I don't know, there's something that calls me to do that. So, so when you know the Bible and, talks about,"like a child" uh, that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, naive and uneducated and you know, it, it means, it means a approach, approach the world with, with wonder and, keep your eyes wide open and be blown away by the leaf that fell on the ground and the things that we pass by every day.

David:

Yeah. Yeah.

J.R.:

And, and, uh, yeah, I think that's all part of it.

David:

Yeah, definitely. I want to ask you? And then I'll share, I want to ask you like, personally how this trip changed you? What has your descent been like? But any other big thoughts about, you know, how do we, how do we handle the descent well and take everything we can without, like you said, without trying to capture an experience that we're just gonna lose, right?

J.R.:

Well, I think, I think we, you know, it's kind of just summarize whatever, what, what we've talked about. You reflect on it when you can, uh, take those moments, to remember the feelings, the emotions associated with the experience, and consider the impact on your life, you know, and to try to work that into your regular spiritual practices. I like that idea of rituals. Um, I'll think more about that. But yeah, try to integrate that into my regular spiritual practices, something that can take me back to that, to that moment. and yeah, we talked about connecting with others, communicating with others. Mm-hmm. and that kind of, that, that actually creates community that can, that can, give you the opportunity to carry the experience with you. Follow up, read, Yeah. And just stay open to growth and learning. Stay open to the idea of going willingly, going out into the wilderness, because uh, you can't grow unless you're, unless you're in that area. So yeah, be open to new experiences. Be open to new perspectives. And, sometimes that may feel like going out into the wilderness because it's the unknown, but be open to that because that's where growth happens and that's where you, meet the supernatural, let's say.

David:

Yeah, I like that idea of, of voluntarily go out into the wilderness. And of course, you may be listening to this and think, well, that's easy if you go to Greece. But, you know, I think you and I talked about this before we left, there's always a moment before any big trip or a retreat, uh, where you think to yourself, this would be easier if I just didn't go.

J.R.:

Yeah, I don't have time for this.

David:

Yeah. I, I remember

J.R.:

There's a lot of work, a lot of money, uh, you know, yeah. Uh, I can't get away from my job. Yes, exactly.

David:

Yeah. It's easier I remember talking to a guy who wanted to take a serving trip to Guatemala with us, and he just said,"You don't understand. I just, I don't have time, you know, work won't And I just thought, well, you know, there you're missing out, because it's never easy. I, I, one of the, one of my first retreats I took to the cabin, I'm telling you everything the kitchen sink was thrown at me to tell me it would be easier not to go. And it was one of the best retreats I ever had, you know?

J.R.:

Yeah. And you and I, every, every time we go somewhere, we always just look at each other and say, all right, who's gonna get the call first? That something's going wrong at the house.<Yeah, yeah> You know, the pipe's broken, the, the dog's sick, whatever it is, you know?

David:

Exactly. Yeah.

J.R.:

But yeah, you're right. Yeah, uh, yeah, willingly go out into the, into the wilderness, even though it's difficult. And maybe the que- maybe another question to turn around to turn that around is to say, if it's not difficult, was it,<Hmm> is it a worthwhile experience at all?

David:

Did it really stretch you? Yeah.

J.R.:

Right. You know, and maybe that's, maybe that to tie, go back to that video game, uh, experience I was trying to kind of tie together<Yeah> is, yeah, that's just a little too easy, you know, to sit on the couch and watch an interesting movie, uh, that's just a little bit too easy. And so therefore, it's no surprise that, uh, maybe a great movie, but doesn't ascend to the religious experience that we're talking about.<Right. Right. Right> There are gonna, there are always going to be difficult.<Yeah> di difficulties involved.

David:

Yeah. No, I, I was thinking, you know, I don't live too far from the beach and so to say"I'm gonna go to the beach" You know, that's probably not gonna be a religious experience for me cuz it's easy, you know?

J.R.:

Oh, yep. But I am 10 hours from it, so, yes. So it maybe it would be a religious for me. That's right. All right. So what was your, uh, what was your takeaway? What, what's, uh, how do you, uh, how did you handle the descent? What, what are some things that you did to, to bring the experience back?

David:

Well, we've talked a little bit about just ritualizing some things. Uh, you know, like I, I love those cappuccino freddos that we had over there. And so I think both you and I,

J.R.:

Ahh, almost every day. Yes.

David:

bought little mixers and, and figured out how to make'em. And, you know, I listened to that, uh, well, I made a Spotify list called Grungin' in Greece, you know, that I listened to at least once a week, probably to take me back.<Yeah> So, I mean, those are just little rituals. But, so I did try to, ritualize some things, um, tried to change some of my reading too. I think that always happens. But, you know, I think the bigger thing that I would have to say, and I haven't quite figured it out, I haven't quite figured out how to put exact words to it, but like one of the things that has really helped me was I came home, of course, we're trying to get Navigating An Ancient Faith, you know, going, sharing it with other people. So I came home super focused on getting down all that I could, just in terms of writing, in terms of putting together, uh, you know, websites, uh, talking about the podcast. I'm writing a book on Phillipi. We'll talk about that, you know, future episodes. But, you know, I tried really hard to get all of that stuff down while it was fresh. But one thing I'll say that I found is that there were a couple of things that I would do to waste time, and I don't do those anymore. And I, you know, I've looked back and after work I would, you know, play a, play a video game, just turn your brain off for 30 minutes or something like that.<Yeah> And I can look back and I go, I think I've played that video game twice in the last five months.<Yeah> And I can think of other li just real little things, you know? Um, but I look back and go, yeah, I don't do that anymore.

J.R.:

Yeah, I've noticed that too. That's interesting, because, you know, just the whole whatever, swipe through Pinterest or, uh, you know, yeah, you're right. The little time wasters I noticed I don't do that as much.

David:

Yes.

J.R.:

And it, it wasn't a conscious thing. I'd like to say that I was just resolute about that. But no, I came back and, and I'm just not, I'm just not interested into it, in, in it. And, and so usually I take that time if I've got you're, you're right. Like if I've got 20 minutes, normally that would've been, well, you know, let's just see what's happening on Snapchat.<Yeah> Uh, but, but now it's like, eh, I could probably, I could probably get, get a chapter to, you know, of this book that I'm reading or something like that.<Yeah, yeah> And I'm not sure why it, I'm not sure why that's the case. Cause what, cuz at least like I said in my case, it, it, it's not, uh, that wasn't a conscious, this is what I'm going to do, you know?

David:

No, I don't think it was in mine either. Although, I'm trying to think how I put it into words. Then. I guess the best way to say it right now would be that I think I came back re-energized and understanding that, you know, whole bible history, everything, understanding the original culture is that's a passion of mine. That's what I really enjoy. And so I would say I came back refocused on what really gives me energy and passion. And I realize that it's not, I realize kind of in a roundabout way, it's not in like, you know, the, this TV show or that video game or this social media thing. Like, that's what I would say. Like I connected, it helped me connect with my passion, and I want to live more of my life there.

J.R.:

Wow, well said.

David:

Maybe that's the way to say it.

J.R.:

Yeah. Well, okay, so, so if I ask you, if you find yourself doing meaningless time wasting activities and we all know what those are, you know, whatever that is for you does that mean that it's, it's time to push yourself, it's time to, time to plan the trip, time to time to make something out? I mean, is that what that means?

David:

Well, I think there's, uh, some truth to that, you know, especially if you're doing it out of boredom. You know, I, I've, one of the things I've learned is, you know, if I'm just kind of wasting time and I'm board, then I, I need to do something to refocus about what I'm passionate about, you know?<Yeah> And so maybe those are, maybe that is, uh, you know, a couple of warning signs of, Hey, maybe it's time again, I like that idea maybe it's time to voluntarily go out into the wilderness, you know? Maybe it's not a trip to Greece, but maybe it's a, a weekend away somewhere or, uh, even your own hometown, you know? Maybe it's time to go to a, a forest preserve that I haven't been to yet, you know?

J.R.:

Oh, yeah. Well, they, the kids talk about the tech, what is it they call tech vacations or what are they, what's the term? It's something like that. But basically, yeah, leave the phone at home, leave the tech at home and just whatever, go out and, and even if it's just as simple as dinner or something like that, but yeah.

David:

Yeah. Try a new restaurant, you know, something like that.

J.R.:

Yeah, something like that. But, but yeah, actively, intentionally leave, uh, the tech behind<Yeah> because we recognize that as a distraction, so. Yeah. I like that.

David:

What about you? Is there any, anything that you would say, this is how I've handled the descent and what I've taken back?

J.R.:

Well, uh, so as we're talking about it, the more, the more we're talking about it, the more I'm thinking well, maybe it's a little bit more unconscious than I realize, and we're trying to say, here's what we can do to hold on to, the ascent, when the reality is, is that if it was a meaningful experience, it's gonna change you anyway. Right? So, so, uh, again, it's like unconsciously I'm not doing this the time wasting stuff.<Yeah, yeah> Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm wanting to read about, that time and that era and connecting things in, in history and things like that and, and wanting to expand my, my knowledge of it. So yeah, that's all part of it. But, but now I'm starting to think, well, maybe it, maybe it's because of the experience that causes those things, you know?<Yeah> And so, yeah, I don't know.

David:

Maybe that's a good way to wrap things up or kind of summarize it, I would say maybe is that, It's a little bit of both: On one hand, you know, a true spiritual ascent moment will probably change you whether you realize it or not. At the same time, there are things that we can do to make sure that we're in the moment to make sure we're bringing the right things home. You know, not trying to manufacture something for someone else.<Right, right> And, and pay attention to what happened and how I can change. And it probably is, you know, it's probably both. It's probably a little bit of both.

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

David:

Well, I think that puts a bow on our Greece series. I'm sure we're gonna continue to talk about it.

J.R.:

Yeah, I was about to say, I don't want it to end.

David:

Yeah, I know, but everyone else is probably like,"Move on guys."

J.R.:

The audience is probably tired of it. Sure. We can move on, yeah.

David:

No, we will talk about other, other topics. But yeah. Um, the Greece trip was an amazing experience and I think these couple of podcasts we've been talking about have been our attempt to just, try to put into words what we experienced and, and hope that other people can connect with that as well. But we'll, we'll be talking about other topics as well. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. If you did, please subscribe and you can check out a lot more resources on our website, navigatinganancientfaith.com. There's articles and videos and other resources on that website as well.

J.R.:

Yeah, and I feel like that, uh, surely in this conversation a few questions have popped in your head. Please leave that, uh, on our website. We will answer those. We'd like to have a conversation with you and yeah, see where it goes.

David:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for listening to everyone. We'll talk to you next episode.

J.R.:

See y'all.

People on this episode

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David Gwartney

Host
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J.R. Gwartney

Co-host