Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast

Shorts: Ancient Wisdom

• David Gwartney / J.R. Gwartney • Season 1 • Episode 12

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The ancient Greek philosophy of Stoicism is making a comeback in modern times.  Stoicism offers a compelling pathway to virtue, but does it tell the whole story?  As opposed to Stoicism, Christianity does tell the whole story - at least in the minds of believers.  But within that story, can Christians learn to pull out a structured path to becoming better people?  What can the two learn from each other, or are they incompatible?  In this episode, we discuss some of these ideas.

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David:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Navigating an Ancient Faith podcast. Coming to you, as always, are, you know, we always say David and J. R., but I thought about. Man, what about just saying the Brothers Gwartney, you know, or the Gwartney Brothers, like the Walensky brothers, they didn't do The Matrix. There's some movie producers that are always known as, you know, so and so brothers.

J.R.:

Uh, yeah, who was it, um...

David:

I think it was the Walensky Brothers, there's a couple of them too, but...

J.R.:

Yeah, I'm thinking of, uh, Kingpin and Something About Mary, I forget those guys.

David:

Yeah. There's a, there's a couple of them, but yeah, maybe we just ought to say, yeah, brought to you by the Gwartney Brothers. Maybe it doesn't have the same ring, but we'll try it.

J.R.:

We'll see. We'll see.

David:

Anyway.

J.R.:

You just, uh, you just got back from, you just got back from Montana, right?

David:

I did. I was in Montana for a week and

J.R.:

How was it?

David:

It was, it was really interesting. First of all, it's beautiful. I got to play in a really odd way, a long story, which is probably not, we don't have time for this podcast. But, but I got to play movie star a little bit because my wife was involved in the filming of a movie last summer in Montana. And so we got invited to the premiere and through our involvement, we actually got to like walk the red carpet and it's this little Montana town, you know? Um, but there were, there were a couple of, well known actors in the film and. And they kind of lined us up and they're like, okay, you guys are going to go with this group. Yeah, so we got to walk the red carpet and wave to the cameras and sit in and watch the

J.R.:

Pause for pictures and all that stuff.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

What'd that feel like?

David:

Uh, I felt a bit like

J.R.:

Was it surreal or?

David:

Surreal, a bit like an imposter. It's like, man, what am I doing here, you know?

J.R.:

Sure. Yeah.

David:

And the truth is everyone looks at us and they're like, uh, who are you guys? You know, but anyway, it was

J.R.:

Just in case we'll go ahead and take a picture.

David:

Right? It was fun to play movie star for a for a couple hours.

J.R.:

That's cool, man. Yeah, there you go.

David:

So that was fun. Yeah

J.R.:

All right, so what uh, what is on the topic for today?

David:

So we are going to continue recording a couple of shorts while we take a break in July and then we'll pick back up in August. But, in the last episode, you threw out this idea of ancient attention, and if I remember correctly, we really talked about the trade off between information and concentration. So, we batted that idea around. And so, today, we're going to pick up, a similar thought, but the idea of ancient wisdom. And, again, by these shorts or just these one offs, this isn't an entire series. We're just using our downtime here to bat around a couple of ideas.

J.R.:

That's right.

David:

Um, shorts probably isn't appropriate, because I think we went about 25 minutes last time. But, no time limits. We'll just see how this conversation goes.

J.R.:

I was about to say, I'm waiting for the day when you and I just talk for five minutes and say, Well, that's it. That's all I got, you know. Okay. We'll see you.

David:

We said it was going to be short.

J.R.:

I don't know if that's ever going to happen or not.

David:

Good night, everyone.

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

David:

Well, so anyway, we're going to talk about an idea I wrestled with for, I guess, last year. And by the way, we put corresponding articles on the website, navigatingandancientfaith.com. We're not just going to rehash the articles. So I'd encourage you, if either of these last two podcasts sparked something, sparked some interest, go to the website and check out the articles associated with those as well, and there you can leave comments. But I was wrestling with this idea a couple of years ago. I wanted to learn more about Greek philosophy. And so, by the way, I just finished reading The Complete Works of Plato.

J.R.:

Wow.

David:

That's, uh, that's no small feat. I think I've been working at it for about a year and a half now.

J.R.:

I was about to say, that's a pretty good undertaking.

David:

So, yeah. So, probably, if you just read The Complete Works of Plato, you probably have at least a minor in Greek philosophy.

J.R.:

No, I'm proud of you for that because that's, that is not easy. That's I've read some Plato. Some stuff is really interesting and grabs you, but it, it doesn't have the grab that modern writing has, you know.<Right.> It's just kind of a back and forth, you know.

David:

Overall it's fascinating. Some of his works are really interesting, especially after you've read a couple and you kind of get that flow of how he writes and what he's talking about. But I'll be honest, there are a couple where I'm just skimming it because, like, I just don't even know what they're talking about, you know? But most of them are not like that. But anyway, you know, so I set out on this quest, kind of a learning path of Greek philosophy. I wanted to understand it a bit more. Well, one of the things that really grabbed my attention was Stoicism. It's, it's a school of Greek philosophy. And I came to find out last year, and I think actually you turned me onto this website. I don't know if you remember that.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, it was something like, Optimize or something like that. I also know that I listen to Modern Wisdom, which is, it's a podcast, and he talks about Stoic philosophy a lot, and things like that.

David:

So, come to find out, there are a number of people who call themselves'modern Stoics', and I've read a couple of their books by a

J.R.:

Yeah, making a bit of a comeback.

David:

Yeah, yes, making a strong comeback. But I kind of found myself drawn to this idea of, maybe even selfishly liking the idea of calling myself a modern Stoic. You know, it's kind of a cool thing to, kind of a hip thing to call yourself, you know. But anyway, I was reading these books and one thing that jumped out at me is, is I liked how it was laid out. I liked how it was structured. And there were these principles about this is how you go through life. This is how you respond to adversity. These are the things that create virtue. And by the way, just as an overview, the goal of Stoicism is to, uh, achieve this state called eudaimonia in ancient Greek, but it's really this idea of human flourishing. And the way that you do that is you pursue the virtues.<Right.> Which is a Greek concept as well. We don't really talk about virtues today, but people still understand what it means to be a virtuous person. So

J.R.:

But, yeah, that moral, virtue is the highest good and that it leads to the ultimate in, you know, flourishing, things like that.

David:

Right, right. Flourishing. So to become a truly flourishing, fulfilled person. You actually have to be a virtuous person, and that's kind of a cool idea, you know.

J.R.:

Sure.

David:

So the way they laid it out fascinated me, and I found myself thinking, Man, I really like this idea of Stoicism. But then I had this other thought, and then I'll pause and get your input into this idea, because then I found myself with this tension of, well, Christianity, the Bible, has a lot of these same things, but it's in a different form. So... You know, why would I pursue Stoicism when I can simply pursue my faith, at a deeper level? And I wrestled with that idea for a couple of months. So, this idea of ancient wisdom kind of comes out of that, that wrestling, and I'll eventually get to one of my conclusions. But, yeah, that's the thing I was wrestling with. I'll get your thoughts. Have you wrestled with that? Or, uh, you've read some Stoicism, too, you know, like, what's the good and the bad, the draw of it, versus Christianity, say. Not that I'm pitting the two against each other, by the way.

J.R.:

Well, no, I think it's a good question. I mean, maybe I'll ask you the question: What are the gaps in, let's say, let's just call it contemporary religion, that you see that Stoicism filled for you? What was the draw? Because it's, you're right, it is something, it is a framework of living a virtuous life. And if I were to stop somebody on the street, they would say,"Oh yeah, that sounds like religion." That sounds like, you know, you're going to church or something like that. So, what is, what was it, you know, what gaps did that fill?

David:

Well, so, I think one of the gaps for me and this may be a personal thing, but it's something you and I have talked about too is that I think modern religion actually does not do a very good job of laying out a path of virtue. I know even in the Protestant church, I, I've been involved in Protestant churches throughout my life, and, and I've been behind the scenes, and they'll just tell you that they struggle with how to put people on the path of discipleship, and what it even looks like.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

So I see that gap in what you might say modern religion. And then I read Stoicism, and I, I thought to myself, well, Stoicism has a lot of it already mapped out for you. Of course, not the ultimate end goal, because as a Christian you would say, you know, the end goal isn't human flourishing, it's actually to be conformed to the image of Christ, at least that's what I would say the end goal of the Christian life is. But yeah, all of these other, you know, you might say lower virtues, very good things it's an entire system laid out that actually leads people on this path. And of course all these modern adherents, you know, are very disciplined people. It says they've changed their life, you know. They've become better people. They've become more disciplined people. And that part of it, I guess, really appealed to me. That is a gap I see in modern religion. I don't know, do you agree or disagree with that?

J.R.:

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from. But what I hear you saying is that Stoicism is a more structured framework, whereas, the biblical narrative is well, that's it. The Bible is more of a narrative.

David:

It's the narrative, right.

J.R.:

Right, it's the narrative side of the structural framework. And obviously there's overlap. The Bible does have a framework on how to live your life also. But you're right, the Stoics did kind of take that to the next level and very meticulously kind of laid out this path.

David:

Right. And, you know, there's even this idea that... I think there were some Stoic philosophers, I think it's Epictetus, might have been alive and writing around the same time as the Apostle Paul. And so there are some people who would see a lot of Stoicism in the Apostle Paul. Some people don't like that comparison, you know. But I definitely think Paul was familiar with some aspects of Stoic philosophy. And there are some people who would say, look, Stoicism has a lot of compatibility with Christianity, and there would be other, the other side of the coin is there's other people who would say, well, no, it's got nothing to do with each other, you know. Completely different aims in life. So, all that's kind of this fascinating, give and take, between some of the ideas of Stoicism and how they relate to Christianity. But, yeah, I think, I think the conclusion I came to was that Christianity is a story. At its very heart, it's a story, right? And that's what differs from Stoicism. Stoicism isn't a story. It's a framework. It's a structure on how to live, and you could argue whether it's a good one or not so good, but a lot of people have benefited from it. But at its heart, Christianity is a story, and I think one of the conclusions I came to was really that forces the Church, or that forces us, to actually pull that framework out of the story. But it's all there in the story.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably right. Yeah, do you think that Stoicism is an attempt at morality free from religion? Do you think that's part of the negative view of it, if there is one?

David:

Well, uh, It did, well, I would say it depends on whether you're talking about ancient Stoicism or modern Stoicism and

J.R.:

Yeah, well either one I mean Stoicism we just said is making a resurgence and maybe we could dig into why we think that's happening. But yeah the ancient Stoicism either way. Do you think that that it's an attempt at morality free from religion?

David:

I well, I think when philosophy was just blossoming, you know, around fourth-century BC, third century BC, um, I do think one of the appeals of philosophy was that it was starting to break away from all the traditional gods and, you know, religion back in Greek times looked very different than religion to our day. Like, the goal of religion back in ancient Greece was not to become a better person. It was basically not to irritate the gods.<Right.> Right> So,<right> and so then philosophy comes along and fills that gap, right? And says, no, there's actually value in becoming a better person, and really you're not gonna get it by worshiping Zeus. So

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right.

David:

There's a little bit of that. And so, I think in terms of modern-day philosophy and Stoicism, I think, again, it depends on what circles you run in. I think some people would definitely say, no, this is, there's a lot of good principles we can pull in to faith and learn from Stoicism, and the two working together. And there would be others, I've read some others, who are really adamant to say, like, no, the idea of Stoicism is, the potential lies within yourself. It doesn't lie with a, a god somewhere. And I've heard modern Stoics talk about that, too. So, it just depends on what circles of Stoicism, I guess, you run in.

J.R.:

Right. Well, ancient Stoics, and, and I suppose modern Stoics, too, they criticize superstition.<Yeah.> They don't like the, uh, the excessive emphasis on external rituals and certainly things like sacrifices, but ceremony. They view those practices as kind of mere superstition and it doesn't contribute to, uh, someone's moral development or their inner virtue. And so Stoics kind of believe that true piety and devotion should be focused on cultivating wisdom and virtue and ultimately living in harmony with nature is what they'd say. But you know, but yeah, they, they, they're anti kind of superstition. And you're right, ancient religion, certainly, ancient Greek religion, uh, very, very superstitious, very, very pointed at the gods, pointed at those things that you just talked about. And, and so I think Stoicism was kind of an attempt to pull the virtue that religion at the time was trying to instill in us, but maybe come up with a more structured, academic type framework for virtue, as opposed to simply pointing at quote unquote, the gods and saying, this is why we should be living virtuous lives.

David:

Right, right. And the other, you know, the gods in ancient Greece, in ancient Greek mythology, too, the gods are hardly paradigms of virtue, either.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

David:

That, that was the kind of the first hurdle to overcome, you know, because it's like,"Hey, be like Zeus." And it's like, uh, really? You want to be like Zeus?

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one.

David:

He's kind of a, you know, ladies man scoundrel running around on his wife all the time. But anyway, that's beside the point. Well, we were talking the other day and I thought you brought up an interesting point of one of the benefits of story over just a structure of philosophy is that it's easy to remember. I don't know if you remember talking about that, but<yeah, sure.> go ahead and share what you, what you were saying about that.

J.R.:

Well, the idea that a story is, is so easily transferred that I might not remember the concepts and all the five points or whatever of a certain idea. But a story is just easy to remember and you carry it with you. And even if you don't get the exact details right, you get the gist of the story right. And it's just so easily transferable, especially in ancient society, when you didn't have the written word.<Right, right.> And yeah, so stories are just easy to, easy to transfer.

David:

Yeah, so I think that's one of the strengths of the Bible, the Christian story, is that, well, there's a lot of it, but it actually all flows together to tell one story. And it's easy to take with you, which is is easier to take with you than, you know, the story of there was, uh, the Son of God who came to Earth and lived this perfect life and then died on the cross and rose from the grave, right? That story is easier to take with you more so than ten propositions of how to achieve better virtue in your life or something.

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And, and, and you can dig through it different layers. The story is better for different ages.<Right> So a child can understand a story. And, how many times we are talking about, some of these fairy tales that we've recently heard podcasts of digging into, and, you know, these are stories that I knew from being a kid. And when you hear somebody peel back the layers of it, you're like,"Oh wow, I think, I think they're right. I think that's exactly what that story means." There is something deeper behind it. Sure. So, so you can kind of tackle it at different levels of intellect, different levels of wisdom. And obviously the best stories can be dug into very deeply, right? And, and so I would say the biblical story is certainly one of the deepest stories that can be remembered as a child or dug into as a brilliant philosopher.

David:

Right. Yeah. I mean, you can take any story in the New Testament or letters of Paul. And I mean, you can, I mean, there, well, there's literally been books written on the layers of meaning. And that's the other thing I think that was helpful for me to think through is this idea that story is transferable, right? I mean, some of the stories we tell you mentioned the fairy tales. I mean, those were told ages ago and some reason we're still telling them, right?

J.R.:

Oh, yeah, sure.

David:

No one goes, Oh, that's out of date. No, I mean, that's a good fairy tale captures the imagination.

J.R.:

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

David:

And there's something

J.R.:

Well, I just saw the other day I was looking at a breakdown of Pinocchio and I was thinking, yeah, well, I'm going to find out who wrote Pinocchio and get the original book and kind of, you know, dig down deep into that story. They don't even know who the original author is. It's been written a dozen times. You know, obviously you got the Disney version, but, uh, there is no author, at least that I know of, that, that is definitive as the author of Pinocchio. It's just been a story that's been passed down from generation, yeah, for, for centuries, I suppose.

David:

Yeah, we're still, tell it today, and Disney makes remakes of it. Sometimes ruin it, right?

J.R.:

Yeah, no, no, no kidding, yeah. If you ask anybody, Disney's the author of Pinocchio, but no, it goes way, way before<yeah> Walt.

David:

Yeah, well, so, and yeah, so I guess that's some of the conclusions that I came to, you know, is look, story is memorable, story is transferable, you know, story is easily communicated. And at the same time, if you're willing to, I guess, pull out the structure, like the principles and the structure is all there too in a story, you just have to work to pull it out.

J.R.:

Right, that's right. So maybe that's the question, why, of why do you think Stoicism is making a resurgence when the narrative is already there? Do you think that we are, do you think that churches are having trouble pulling out the structure?

David:

Yeah, I think, well, like I said earlier, I think churches in general have a difficult time making the story really how do I say this? applicable to modern day life. And systematize, I would say almost systematizing it in a way that you could say, okay, here's what Jesus said. But like, but what does that mean tomorrow when I, when I go into work and my boss irritates me? Or what does that mean? And you know, I think, I don't think it's too much to say, a lot of the, uh, a lot of Modern Christianity maybe fell into a little bit of pop psychology, so some of it feels very shallow, I would say.<Yeah.> Now, not all of it, you know. There are some good churches out there really teaching some good things, so don't, don't misunderstand me. But...

J.R.:

Well, yeah, no, but...

David:

I think as a general characterization, I think if you ask the person off the street, as a general characterization, they would say, well, yeah, it seems pretty shallow, you know.

J.R.:

Yeah, the modern church is focused more on making, having an interesting sermon that grabs the attention and, we've talked about this before about kind of the idea. You go to church and you're not getting the structure. You're getting three points that will make your marriage better or, uh, you know, ideas to help raise your kids and things like that. Not that those don't matter, but that it's sort of turned into a, uh, pop psychology self help idea, a group that we come to and we listen. It's almost like we go to a Ted talk about how to raise kids or how to, how to get along with coworkers or a lot of times that's what it kind of boils down to when you go to church. And there's a place for that but you're right you're not pulling out a deeper structure and so it's no surprise that when Stoicism, well the resurgence of Stoicism, comes along that people wake up and they're like, oh wow that makes sense. These stories that I've known my whole life, that that's this structure behind it. And it grabs people's attention because they haven't heard it.

David:

Right right.

J.R.:

So we're in a sense we're kind of malnourished to it.

David:

And I think there's a deeper thread there, too, that, you know, look, if, if you teach me how to be a better person, then I will automatically be probably a better husband, a better father, a better employee at work. So, you know, you know what I mean?

J.R.:

Yeah, sure.

David:

It's a deeper level, like, and, and that's where I think the, the Greek idea of virtue, I think could make a resurgence too. And maybe that's the resurgent but behind stoicism is, you know, look if the church actually said,"Here's what it means to be a better person and here's how it's formed in you." Then maybe we wouldn't need so many sermons on, here's how to be a better husband and a better wife and a better parent and a better kid. Those are you know, there's workshops for that, times for that but really at the heart of it, it's you know, it's how to be a better person and In Christian language, I would say, how to be transformed to the image of Christ, you know? Not just to be a better father or husband or worker or boss.

J.R.:

Yeah, it's getting down to that foundational nature of ourselves that we need to address.<Right, right.> And when we do that, all those other things seem to lay out pretty nicely. And, again, it's not that there's not a place to tackle these everyday topics that we come in contact with. But that, uh, you know, when, when I go to church and when I consider the supernatural and when I consider eternity, I want something a little bit deeper than five points on how to be a good neighbor or, you know, that type of thing. Yeah, that's right. That makes sense.

David:

Yeah. Well, so yeah, that's kind of my journey. Like I said, I put an article on the website, uh, I'll end with this, that I just finished reading, Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton and you've already read it. But interestingly enough, he basically ended on this same idea, that the difference between philosophy and religion, that's the way he put it, is that religion is the story. Religion is the story that captures the framework, that captures everything philosophy is trying to do, but it's not just a framework. And I thought that was kind of a cool idea, you know, to read someone like Chesterton and go, Oh, okay, he, he arrived at the same place I did a hundred years ago. But nevertheless.

J.R.:

Yeah, no, I like that. Sure. That's right. Well, if you're in the category of Chesterton, then you're in good company.<Right.> Right. That's right.

David:

Right. But he talks about, uh, that was a fascinating book. You know, he talks about mythology and philosophy and religion. And, and that's kind of how he put a bow on it as well. So I think we'll leave it there. Let, uh, Chesterton have the last word.

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right. Well, I think to summarize it, I think you're saying that philosophy, it captures the human condition that we can all understand. But religion, is better at explaining why. The why behind all of that.<Right> And so there's a lot in philosophy that really resonates with people because there's, you know, you hear things and you're like, oh wow, that really makes sense to me. What's going on behind the scenes. But that doesn't ultimately get to down to that foundation of why is it that way? Why is it that we feel like that we should be better people? Why don't we just move along being selfish and doing what's best for me. What is it, what is it behind all that? And that's what I think religion is attempting to address.

David:

Right. And a religion tells the deeper, well, it tells the overarching narrative. It's the story, but it tells the overarching narrative about why things are the way they are.<Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.> And so, yeah, I mean, we just need to tap into that, that rich story.

J.R.:

So one of the things about Stoicism, I was trying to kind of wrap this up because I didn't want to, I don't want to pit philosophy against religion. But, but one of the things I was trying, I was thinking about is Stoicism kind of has its place and it reminds me of, I think you wrote something about sort of the different categories of truth. And that there's a hierarchy to it, that you have, your personal truth, whatever you're feeling. You have scientific truth that obviously explains things that can be measured and, you know, tested scientifically. And then you have philosophical truth that explains the human condition. And then above all that, you have religious truth that is sort of what we were talking about earlier, the why behind the human condition. And so, Stoicism is, is, it has its category, but a lot of times you were saying that people sort of, what, that they get the hierarchy of it wrong. That they put the philosophical truth above the religious truth, right?

David:

Yeah. A lot of that, a lot of that idea we'll explore this on another podcast.

J.R.:

Yeah. No, I like the idea.

David:

You know, there's a lot of competing truth ideas out there. And we take a step back, they're not really competing. They're just not aligned properly on the hierarchy. Obviously as people of faith, we believe that spiritual truth is at the top of the hierarchy, right?<Yeah, yeah> So, and I think that's a good way to kind of wrap this up is so, you know there's a lot of good points about something like Stoicism. But they don't have to compete because, at least as a person of faith, I'm not putting Stoicism at the top of the hierarchy.

J.R.:

Right. But they do have to be in their proper place.

David:

They have to be in their proper place. Yeah. Yeah. And we see that today in our culture where, you know, my personal truth is the highest truth. And you're like, no, no, no, you've got that completely upside down.

J.R.:

Right. Right. Right. And not that there's not a personal truth. Not that there's not a place for that, right? I mean, because everybody has different experiences, and they see the world differently, so there is a place for it, but you have to have it in the right position in the hierarchy. No, that's, that's, that's a good way of putting it. It doesn't necessarily compete with all the other truths.<Right.> Right, it just has its place. All right, there you go. So, uh, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna keep going down the Stoicism path?

David:

I, I, well, I'll, I'll always kind of be interested in it, because I do think there are good things to learn from it. But, uh, yeah, I landed at the idea of like, no, let's, let's figure out this, this whole, uh, you know, healing, meaning, and transformation. Let's do that, rather than just become a Stoic, right?

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right. Well, yeah, lots of philosophies package ideas really, really well. And so it resonates. And so, if you can find something in Stoicism that really explains the human condition in a particular way, and I think, I think that's what you saw, then yeah, there's a, there's value in that. Uh, and ultimately we can bring that into religion and kind of see where it ties into that religious hierarchy where does this, work well with my understanding of religion? And if it does, then yeah, build it in. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Keep, keep, stick with it. Sure.

David:

Yeah. Well, cool.

J.R.:

Keep, keep with Plato. So, so who's, who are you going to read after Plato? The Complete works of who?

David:

Yeah, the problem with reading the complete works of anyone is like, well, I've read them now. So,<Yeah, well.> No, I tried

J.R.:

Best of luck with Chesterton.

David:

I looked at, uh, I actually started a little book on an introduction to, uh, Aristotle. But, he's all over the place. I mean, a brilliant thinker, but man, he's, he wrote, uh, he wrote all kinds of things about scientific treatise. It was much beyond philosophy, so I think, I won't be reading the complete works of Aristotle, if there is such a thing, but.

J.R.:

Well, it's funny, it's interesting that a lot of the ancient scientists, philosophers, you read their complete works or you, you learn more about them and you realize they were kind of nuts in this one little arena of life, you know? I mean, yeah, uh, yeah, it's tough to pin, hitch your, hitch your horse to any ancient philosopher completely, you know, but, you know, take what you can from them. I like it.

David:

Yeah, but they were brilliant in their time to have a lot of wisdom for us today and, um, you know, way ahead of their time,<Sure.> to be sure, so. Well, I think it's a good place to stop for this"short". Hope you enjoyed it. Like I said, if you like what you heard, there are articles on our website, NavigatingAnAncientFaith.com. You have an opportunity to leave comments there on those articles, or if you just want to be in on a discussion about anything we talked about, you can join our Facebook group, NavigatingAnAncientFaith as well. And we'll pick things back up, if you're listening in real time, in August. We are gonna start a series on Symbolism in the Psalms, and I'm excited about it.

J.R.:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Yeah.

David:

Yeah, that should be a good one. So stay tuned for that, and thanks for listening, everyone.

J.R.:

All right, we'll see y'all.

People on this episode

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David Gwartney

Host
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J.R. Gwartney

Co-host