Symbolism in the Psalms: Ascending the Mountain, Descending to Hell

There are several Psalms that are described as Psalms of Ascent.  These are songs that likely would have been sung on pilgrimage to Jerusalem.  To go on pilgrimage is to ascend the Mountain of God.  But other Psalms also refer to descending to the grave or to The Pit.  What is the significance of the language of descending to the underworld?  Delve into the profound symbolism of ascending and descending in the Psalms, as we unravel the mysteries of these spiritual journeys.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Review
• 8:11 Psalms of Ascent
• 14:00 Psalm 121
• 20:08 Psalm 122
• 26:38 Psalm 128
• 33:06 Psalm 135
• 43:44 Psalm 30 and the Descent
• 53:19 Psalm 6
• 1:07:08 Psalm 18
• 1:10:55 Psalm 69
• 1:15:25 Psalm 95
• 1:21:08 What's Your Trajectory?

Transcript

Ascent and Descent

David: [00:00:00] Greetings, everyone. Welcome to the Navigating an Ancient Faith podcast. My name is David, and as always, my co host is J. R. 

J.R.: How's it going?

David: Good. Good. How are you? 

J.R.: Going good in Florida? I'm a little, a little under the weather.

So if my voice cracks or something like that, that's, I'm not going through puberty. It's just yeah, a little bit of drainage, that type of stuff. My wife had this crud about a week ago and I thought I dodged that bullet. But now she's doing better which is good because now she can take care of me, but <okay, all right> we'll fight through it. Yeah, I think we'll be fine. 

David: Understood. If you start hacking up a lung, we'll edit it out. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. That's a great thing about yeah, editing and post production. Yeah. Yeah. All the coughs. Yeah. 

David: Well, here fall has arrived. It's only a high of 85 today. So, oh goodness. We are basking in the cool fall weather.

J.R.: Yes. And when you walk out in the mornings it's, oh, it's so nice here. It's like, you know, low [00:01:00] 60s in the mornings. Be a little chilly. <Oh, yeah, That'd be nice.> Yeah, yeah. So, so here we go. Leaves will start changing. 

David: Well, not here. 

J.R.: Halloween's around the corner. Yeah. 

David: Palm fronds will start dying. Yeah, yeah. That's what it is here, but yeah, yeah. It's, it's within reach now. And I have a week at a cabin in about three weeks. I hope you can join me, but. That's, I talk about it all the time. That's coming up. I, man, I start counting the days down because I get in the car. I drive up to North Carolina and when I get out of the car, I'm in shorts and it's, it's like 55 or 60 degrees. It's just wonderful. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the annual getaway. It's coming up. 

David: Yeah, it is. It's coming up.

J.R.: Yeah, I'll try to make it up there for a day or two. 

David: We'll do some recording if you make it up there. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, in the show notes, we'll put GPS location when we're there, everybody can join us. Yeah, yeah. Let's make a big party out of it. 

David: I'm sure the cabin hosts will love that. Yeah, yeah. We'll have an informal, what do they call it, informal meet and greet or something like that, [00:02:00] so. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you've said before on the podcast that you lose service once you, as soon as you hit that driveway.

David: You do, yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, and the funny thing is, last time I joined you, I went up to what I thought was your cabin, and it was open. I walked in, I sat there, I unpacked. Yeah, I was sitting there hanging out for probably, you know, an hour. And of course, you can't text me or anything like that. <Yeah.> And eventually, I think the owner of all of them came knocking and he said, "Hey, You know, he basically cleared it up. I was like, oh, I thought this was, yeah. What you doing? I was about to get in the hot tub, man. Yeah, yeah. That's right. 

David: Hot tub. Cook a little dinner, get the grill fired up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And meanwhile I'm just up the, up the mountain and I'm sitting there waiting for you.

J.R.: Yeah, you were just a hundred yards up the way. Wondering what's taking me so long. Oh, . Yeah. life without gps and cell phones. It can happen real quick. 

David: Yes. Yes. And there are still areas where that happens. So yeah, and the mountain is one of them, and that's a good thing. So 

J.R.: there we go. That's a good segway. 

David: Yeah, it [00:03:00] is. Because speaking of mountains. <Yeah, that's right.> Yeah, so we're in the middle of the series on Symbolism in the Psalms. Of course, we started episode one with the mountain of God and the symbolism of the mountain of God. So we won't rehash that. Then we move to ancient trash talk, and that was fun.

The symbolism there is just all of the different ways that the Psalms reference, in a way that isn't clear in our English versions, kind of polemics against foreign gods. It gets pretty graphic and explicit. Just in almost a, you know, a violent way. Yeah. Of like, you know, when you know the words that you're looking for. But we talked about that, and then last episode we talked about the Divine Council. 

J.R.: Yeah, that was fun. 

David: Yeah, and that was fun. And there again, that language of the Divine Council, once you look at it, we looked at, what, Deuteronomy, we looked at Job, and once you start to see the imagery... yeah, that there's this [00:04:00] divine counsel that God presides over, and there's a lot of those references in the Psalms once you, again, know what you're looking at.

J.R.: Right. Yeah, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And it's one of the things that I was telling you is that in church Sunday, I won't tell the whole story, but in the Sunday school class, it was, we were going over a passage in Samuel, and I'm like, yeah, this ties in beautifully to what we were talking about. And so I gave my opinion on it through the lens of the divine counsel, and it was, yeah, interesting, to say the least.

David: Oh, okay. Was it well received? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah, very well. Yeah. Well, like I said, it's, it's one of those things that once you see it, it's not that we're just coming up with these wild ideas and saying, what if the Bible means this. It's supported all throughout the Bible. I don't want to say it's not anything you can argue with. It's just one of those things that there's so many supporting verses that talk about what we're talking about, that, it becomes one of those things where you say, man, how come I've never heard of this before?

David: Yeah. Yeah. Some of these are a little bit controversial if you bring them up once, but yeah, when you [00:05:00] really look at the thread all throughout the Old and New Testament and look at the context and see the usage of certain images over and over, it actually shouldn't be that controversial, but it still is in some circles.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, it becomes more difficult to push away. 

David: It's a, yeah, it's just a different way of reading the Bible that I think you and I are both really enjoying, and it's just opening up Scripture again. And we talked about this, how you can read the Bible at so many different layers, and this is just another layer, which you can read it at, and you can read the same story you've read a hundred times, and you look at it through this lens and you go, Oh, wow, I've never seen that before, you know.

J.R.: It doesn't undo anything you've already been taught or anything like that. But yeah, it is. It does give you a depth. 

David: Yeah. So that's where we've been so far in this series. We have a couple more to go. We could have done - I was thinking about this too - we could have done 10, 15 more episodes on different symbols in the Psalms. And I wanted to throw that out there too, because, you may be thinking, well, why didn't they cover this or why didn't we cover symbolism of, like, the [00:06:00]Messiah in the Psalms.

And, you know, there's just so many ways you could run with this idea of symbolism. We're just focusing on these four or five, but just acknowledging that, yeah, there's a dozen more out there, at least, that you could focus in on the types of Psalms, the symbolism throughout the Psalms. So it doesn't mean those aren't important. We just pick these five cause we've been processing and think they're interesting. 

J.R.: So, well, it's also one of those things. Once you see things this way, you see several different threads, it's not just about trash talk or it's not just about the mountain or the Sheol or whatever we're talking about. It gives you a chance to start thinking in the symbolic the ancient symbolic way. And then you catch all these things, and you get better at it. It's kind of like learning a new language or, something else that, you kind of get better at the more of it you do.

So there's lots of symbology in Psalms, and we're just touching on a few to try to take the training wheels off and get us to start thinking that way. 

David: Yeah, yeah. If you're wondering, listening to this going, I wish they would have covered this, let us [00:07:00] know. And we'll do another round of these or something like that, so. 

J.R.: Sure. Yeah, there's plenty in there. 

David: Alright, so today we are going to talk about Ascending the Mountain and Descending to Hell. Now we talked about in the closing of last episode, how that was a big switch, ascending the mountain, but then descending to hell. And you see this contrast in the Psalms. That's what we're going to talk about today. Right. We've talked a little bit about ascending the mountain but it's such a, gosh, it's such a pervasive image. The more I really understand what ascending a mountain meant in the Old Testament or in the New Testament also, but in the ancient mindset, there's just so many layers to that as well, because we talked about ascending when we did our series on the Greece trip.

This is going to be a little bit different take on that, so we're not just going to rehash what we talked about in that episode, The Ascent. So we're going to talk about ascending the mountain, and then we're going to add this contrast to it because you see both sides in the Psalms of [00:08:00]descending to the underworld, or just in our parlance, in hell. 

J.R.: There's a lot more to it than descending to hell. <Yes.> Right. Yeah, so where do you want to start? 

David: All right, so yeah, in the Bible, in the Psalms, most Bibles will have a section of Psalms, and they have this subheading called the Psalms of Ascent. Right? And in the couple of Bibles I have, study Bibles, you know, Psalms 120 to 135 will be called the Psalms of Ascent. Okay, so there's 15 of them, and they're called the Psalm of Ascent. I think that's not even our label for it. I believe that's even in the original. <Right.> If I'm in the original text, if I'm right about that.

But yeah, these are grouped together as the Psalm of Ascent. So, first question we got to tackle is, what is the Songs of Ascent? What is this talking about, right? <Yeah, yeah.> So, did a little bit of research, and you know, this isn't anything controversial or anything like that, but most [00:09:00]scholars believe that these were songs that were sung by pilgrims as they made their way to Jerusalem on pilgrimage. <Right.> Which makes sense because we talked about if you're going on pilgrimage, you're ascending, right? Yeah. If you're going to Jerusalem, you are always ascending. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right. No matter what direction you're coming from. 

David: Right, right. Yeah, you are ascending if you were going to Jerusalem. So that's why these are called the songs of ascent, because these were songs that were recited, sung together, as pilgrims made their way to Jerusalem for one of the feasts or festivals. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, and it's obviously with large groups of people, typically, you know. Groups from your village. It's not like you're traveling with you and your family only <right> you know. It'd be large groups of people so you can kind of see that we'll pass the time by singing songs, and <yeah, yeah> give the kids something to do.

David: I think that's a good example because you get in a car on a family vacation and, [00:10:00]what do you do you turn on the radio and you start, you start singing together as a family. I remember doing that. You know, when we never sat around the house singing together, but on family trips, I can remember that.

J.R.: Yeah, the Carpenters. The Carpenters. Or whatever they found on the radio, I guess. 

David: No, so one of the things I remember, I was just thinking this on our family trips, I remember our father would turn on country music, and specifically, I remember Glenn Campbell. Now, I don't think, I don't think our dad... Well, No, I don't think our dad ever listened to like country music <right> just at at the house. You know turn on the radio or at the house, but on I remember a couple family road trips. And to this day, on my Spotify country music playlist. I like some old school country, like, I have several Glenn Campbell songs. Cause I like Glenn Campbell. I don't know, it just has that association to me. I'm like a kid again, sitting in the back of our station wagon and, you know, our dad is playing Glenn [00:11:00] Campbell. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, I remember uh, the Gaither Trio 8 tracks, I think is pretty much, yeah, my memories, yeah.

David: That was another one. 

J.R.: Running through Yellowstone. 

David: With the Gaithers playing, yeah. 

J.R.: Yep, there you go. 

David: And you know, we did this too on our trip to Greece. We had our own Spotify playlist, right?

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: And that was great, you know I actually named it and I still listen to it at least once a week, but... 

J.R.: Oh yeah, I listen to it all the time. 

David: But yeah, for whatever reason, the two of us just bonded over 90s grunge music on our Greece trip, and so... Yeah, that became our playlist. 

J.R.: Yeah, I'm not sure what, it didn't really tie to Greece very well, but I think it was just kind of just, do you remember this song? It started that whole rabbit hole that we went down. 

David: So, I don't know, on YouTube every now and then, you know, you're scrolling through YouTube and I'll see this video that says, What if Taylor Swift had recorded a metal song? I don't know if you've ever seen those videos, but ...

J.R.: Yeah, the AI generated stuff?

David: Well, it's [00:12:00] AI, but it's also just a musician who, who kind of tinkers around with, okay, what if covers Metallica with this country music star covered this Metallica or this rap song, you know? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. I have seen stuff like that. 

David: So I was thinking about that and I'm like, okay, what if Soundgarden did a psalm, like, 120? Psalm 120. What would that? I don't know, would it be fantastic, or would it just be a train wreck? I don't know. But I was trying to merge our Greece trip playlist with the idea of Songs of Ascent from the Psalms. That's where my brain was going. People think I read these, you know, books like Plato, but no, this is really where my mind is at all the time.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Well, I'm going to stick that in Chat GBT after the episode, and we'll see what we come up with. 

David: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Sure. We'll come up with something. What would Psalm 122 sound like if performed by Rage Against the Machine?

J.R.: Yeah, Kurt Cobain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll give it a shot. 

David: Anyway, that's this idea of, we're trying to pull in things like, when you travel, you have a playlist, right? You sing songs together in the, in the [00:13:00] car. And in the ancient days and not so ancient days, even that's what this is referring to. These songs of ascent that, as you alluded to, there would be groups of people who would travel together. And so, of course, they would sing songs together. And so these things were written down, they were recorded, they were easy to memorize. A lot of these are short. That's the other thing I noticed as I was reading through these, you know. Yeah. So the kids could learn them, and then the next year the kids could actually participate more. And by the time you're an adult, you'd memorize these because you sung them every time you travel to Jerusalem.

That's at least how I picture this. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, it's just ingrained in your brain like Michael Jackson. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's what the Songs of Ascent are. And I think it's cool because once you understand that they are sung by pilgrims making a pilgrimage, I think a lot of the imagery from these particular psalms kind of starts to jump out at you. So, let's look at, we're not going to look at all 15 of them, we're just going to look at a handful of them. But let's start with [00:14:00] Psalm 121. 

J.R.: You want Psalm 121 verse one says, "I lift my eyes up to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. He will not let your foot slip. He who watches over you will not slumber. Indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. The Lord watches over you. The Lord is your shade by your right hand. The sun will not harm you by day nor the moon by night. The Lord will keep you from all harm. He will watch over your life. And the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore." Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

So it makes sense. It kind of has the whole ascent as we're traveling down the road. It gets hot. he won't let our foot slip. Which is nice because as we saw when we were going up to Delphi things can go sideways real fast, if you don't plant your foot, right, right?

David: Yeah. If you're sending any one of those you know, the Acropolis at Philippi. <Right.> Delphi. Yeah. It'd be very easy to [00:15:00] slip on one of those paths, so. 

J.R.: So, sure. Yeah. It's kind of, as you're going along, you're just asking for protection along the way. 

David: Yeah. And so, a psalm like this makes sense as you're walking to Jerusalem or a holy site. You know, and I like the way it even starts out. "I lift up my eyes to the mountains. Where does my help come from?" So that imagery right off the bat, I lift up my eyes to the mountains. I mean, that's the ascent, right?

J.R.: Yeah, absolutely. 

David: That's, that's raising your sights upwards because you are about to ascend the mountain. And as we talked about, this ties back to the very first episode of this series. Any type of pilgrimage is going to be an ascent, and it didn't matter if it was a small hill. You were still going to ascend the mountain, right? <Yeah.> And so that's how this Psalm starts out. It's almost like the beginning of a pilgrimage. I lift up my eyes to the mountains. Where am I headed, you know? I'm going to ascend up. And where is my help going to come from? My help comes from the Lord. In fact, you know, when we were kids, this just occurred to me too. [00:16:00] You remember sometimes if we were going on a long trip, we would start by prayer, right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. That's right. Every sure. Every vacation. We've pretty much started that way. 

David: Now. If we were just running to the store, we were on our own, but , yeah, that's right. I guess that's how to take that. But ...

J.R.: Yeah. No, you had no protection there. 

David: Yeah. , no. Any trip like that can be, perilous . And so, you know, you start out with a prayer that's, I remember doing that as a kid, and this is very much in the same vein.

J.R.: I do that with my family now, sure.

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Keep the tradition. 

David: And so, you mentioned, you know, we skip down to verse 3, you already talked about, he will not let your foot slip. And again, if you've ascended a hill or a mountain, you can appreciate that imagery. You know, the chance that you're going to slip off the side of a trail, or, injure yourself, or snakes, or bandits, you know. Traveling is perilous. 

J.R.: Mars Hill in Athens. You and I were saying it is like oh, yeah, it's like a sheet of ice. It's crazy. It's i'm assuming it's marble? I'm, not sure what the rock is, granite? But anyway, it's there's so many people that go up there [00:17:00] man. It is worn completely slick. In fact, we saw a couple people fall right blood drawn. I mean, and as you're walking, you're thinking, man, how is this not illegal to be up here altogether? Right? There's got to be some fatalities and it's not really a real high mountain by any stretch. It's basically a hill. But yeah, thinking man, people have got to be losing their life here every year. <Yeah. Yeah.> It's rough. 

David: And one day they're going to close it and that's going to be a sad day. But ...

J.R.: Yeah, we're going to say, well, we, we were there before they, the lawyers got involved. 

David: Yeah. Right. Yeah, so that's the idea is, you know, that this journey is going to be filled with challenges and some danger like every trip is, and so it's just praying for God's protection. Right. Now, the one more thing that jumped out at me, actually this last time I just read this you mentioned, you know, the Lord is your shade at your right hand, the sun will not harm you by day, the moon by night. I actually got curious about that little phrase, because the sun will not harm you by day. Okay, I think of a [00:18:00] sunburn. 

J.R.: Yeah, what, shade from the moon? 

David: Yeah, the moon? Okay. 

J.R.: That's never been that dangerous to me. 

David: But, if you look at the original language, the sun will not harm you, that word for harm is actually smite. Okay. And as it's used throughout the Old Testament, smite is... someone strikes you, right? Someone attacks you. And so in this sense, now we have to go back to this ancient idea that the Sun and the Moon had spirits behind them. 

J.R.: Okay, yeah. <Right?> Yeah, that makes sense. 

David: You know, again, we've said this over and over, but it bears repeating, that in our modern mindset, well, you go, well, is it talking about the Sun or the Moon, or is he talking about, you know, some spirit? And the two, you can't separate the two in the ancient mindset. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: So this imagery of the sun will not smite you by day makes more sense if you understand, that there is a spirit behind it. That's why it makes sense to include the [00:19:00] moon as well. Because on the initial reading, you know, it's like, what's the moon gonna do to me?

J.R.: Yeah, the moon doesn't seem dangerous. 

David: Right, right. But it's, you know, it's more symbolic language. But it's also very real in the ancient mind that, look, the sun can harm you. The moon can smite you. Unless you've had this kind of prayer of protection. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, bad things happen at night, so I guess they just associate it with the primary.

David: Yeah, it could be another allusion to that. There's a saying, you know, nothing good ever happens after midnight. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. So I think that was true in the ancient world, too. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, those are some of the things I picked out in this Psalm 121. Do you have anything else to add to this one?

J.R.: No, it's pretty straightforward. It's a good start because we're clearly talking about ascending to the mountain the pilgrimage, that aspect, and all that kind of ties together nicely, yeah. 

David: Yeah, and in some of these ways, I, I was reading through them, they almost build on each other a little bit, but then every now and then you can't [00:20:00] press that because, you know, some of it, is just a completely different topic that it's talking about, but it's still included in one of these Psalms of Ascent, but...

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: So, let's go on to the next Psalm, then, and it is the very next Psalm, 122. I'll read a couple of verses of this one. So, Psalm 121 starts out, again, I think it's a great way to start out, I lift up my eyes to the mountains, you know. I'm setting my sights on a pilgrimage, so... Yeah. Psalm 122, again, it says, A Song of Ascent.

"I rejoiced with those who said to me, let's go to the house of the Lord. Our feet are standing in your gates, Jerusalem. Jerusalem is built like a city that is closely compacted together. That is where the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, to praise the name of the Lord according to the statute given to Israel. There stands the throne for judgment, the throne of the house of David. Pray for peace of Jerusalem. May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your [00:21:00] walls and security within your citadels. For the sake of my family and friends, I will say, peace be with you. For the sake of the house of the Lord our God, I will seek your prosperity."

So, now you get the image, almost, that you have arrived at Jerusalem, but you're not quite in the city, right? <Yeah.> At least that's the image that I got of this. 

J.R.: Right, the lower city, or outside the walls, or... 

David: Yeah, maybe going over that last hill, you know, the city suddenly lays out before you and you go... Ah, yes, there's Jerusalem, our feet are standing in your gates, Jerusalem, like we're almost there, right?

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. It's funny because I, on every vacation, I get to a point and it can be different places, but I get to a point where I tell myself, Hey, even if I blow a tire or even if the car breaks down I'm close enough that somebody could come get me. I'm only like an hour or two away. You know, it's kind of like on a long trip. <I did that too.> Yeah. Yeah, you're kind of like hey i'm close enough that, hey, you know, a buddy could come pick me up now, [00:22:00] but yeah, sort of that idea. We're not here yet, but we're close enough that I'm definitely going to make it now.

David: Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's funny. Cause I do that too. I, I'm like, okay, I'm within range now where I could call, you know, my aunt, I know a lot of her have to call my wife back, but I could call my aunt, something like that. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Even if somebody has to come get me, I'm spending the night in my own bed tonight, right?

David: Yeah, right. Yeah. So ...

J.R.: Yeah, you kind of see that in here.

David: Yeah. And I think again, once you picture this as a song of pilgrimage going to, in this case, Jerusalem, like, okay, the context just fits perfectly in this song. And we don't have to go through every verse, and we could pick out a lot of imagery, but yeah, this is, I see Jerusalem, I see the gates, we're almost there. And he's describing it, you know, Jerusalem's built like a city, closely compacted together, and it is. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, well, that's, I read that, and I'm thinking, that sounds miserable, you know, packing a bunch of people in there. But, but what it is, it's, it's imagery of protection, [00:23:00] you know, it's, a school of fish, so to speak. That when everybody's packed in together, yeah, there's, there's good and bad to that, but the good is that I'm in a huge group of people that, you know, I'm not going to be attacked by wolves or bears or anything like that. Right. Right. So, yeah. 

David: Yeah. And by a lot of accounts in the Bible, they would have one of these high feasts or festivals, and the city would just be packed. In fact, people probably were camping outside the walls, you know. <Right.> Which is another piece of this in verse 7, there's a phrase in here that jumped out to me. "May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels," which is kind of what we're talking about.

But, I think the other contrast here to start to bring in the ancient mindset again is, the city represented a place of order and protection, right? That's what the city represents. Because you just maybe spent the last couple days traveling through, talking about sacred space, [00:24:00] the wilderness. <Right.> We talked about what the wilderness represents. <Right.> Yeah, chaos, right? Danger. Unknown. <Yeah.> So, even if you're traveling with a large group of people you know, you're traveling through the wilderness, through hills, through pilgrim trails, but it was all danger. It was chaos. It was unknown until you actually reached the city.

J.R.: Right. So. And like you said, even if you're outside the walls of the city, you're camping with other groups of people. You're not worried about wild animals anymore. <Right. Yeah.> Yeah. And so there's just protection in this, you know, in, in this group. And if you were sent out in the wilderness, well, by yourself and not prepared for it, man, it was a death sentence. And I think that's why John the Baptist is such kind of an interesting figure, is it's the guy outside the safety of a camp announcing the arrival of the Messiah that's going to unite all the camps together, so to speak, you know. But it's that same analogy that wouldn't have been missed on ancient <Right.> [00:25:00] by ancient listeners, that out of chaos comes order. 

David: No, I think that's a good point. I never thought of that. But John the Baptist, and it talks about how he eats locusts and honey, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, he's very much the strange person in the wilderness. Right, the outsider. Yeah, that's where you would encounter the strange person.

J.R.: Right, yeah, and John the Baptist definitely qualifies. 

David: Yes. In fact, so one of the, okay, so this is another thing. When we went to these Orthodox churches in, in Greece, you and I commented, I remember at one point commenting that you'd see the icons of Jesus and Mary and John the Baptist and the disciples. And we commented that John the Baptist, you could always pick him out because he had crazy messed up hair. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, these are like puzzle pieces. You know, these are not wonderful drawings. I mean, they're very fascinating paintings, but they're sort of a little bit what I might call simplistic. But [00:26:00] yeah, John the Baptist, he always had the crazy hair shooting everywhere. It's like, yep, there's John the Baptist. 

David: And we were joking that, you know, I wonder if John the Baptist is like, man, come on. That's how I'm remembered, you know?

J.R.: My hair doesn't look like that, guys. That was one morning. Yeah, I had a bad hair day. I'm stuck with this the rest of my life <Yeah, yeah.> for all generations. 

David: so I think this psalm definitely gets to that idea of, you know, we're arriving at the city, you're out of the danger of the wilderness, and you're approaching the safety. The peace and security of the city of Jerusalem.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, out of chaos into order. I like that. Yeah, that's right. 

David: That's a cool image. Alright, the next one is, let's go to Psalm 128.

J.R.: Yeah. Verse one says, "Blessed are those who fear the Lord, who walk in obedience to him. You will eat the fruit of your labor. Blessings and prosperity will be yours. Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house. Your children will be like olive shoots around your table. Yes, this will be the blessing for [00:27:00] the man who fears the Lord. May the Lord bless you from Zion. May you see the prosperity of Jerusalem all the days of your life. May you live to see your children's children. Peace , be on Israel."

David: Okay, so this one again, there's not an immediate tie in, but it does say that it's one of the Psalms of Ascent, right? So we know it fits in somehow. That's one of the clues. And I think this one is just this idea of taking a pilgrimage in obedience to these Old Testament directives to honor these feasts, to go to Jerusalem several times a year, once a year. Not everyone could do it, but you were supposed to do as much as you could, you know?

But this idea of that taking the ascent and taking the pilgrimage will bring blessing, right? And this, this is a psalm specifically about blessing, right? <Right.> And even Psalm verse five says, you know, may the Lord bless you from Zion, right?

J.R.: Yeah. What's the significance there?

David: May you see the prosperity of [00:28:00] Jerusalem all the days. So yes, well Zion I think is really specifically the temple mount in this case. Okay. So again, it's the mountain of God, right? There's that. Yeah It's literally where the temple was at and it's the end point for your pilgrimage. Once you arrive at the temple, you've arrived. So I think it's just that, you know, may the Lord bless you. But the blessing comes from Zion, and the next phrase says, you know, "May you see the prosperity of Jerusalem all the days of your life." And so there again, it's very much may you get to see how Jerusalem is flourishing when you take these pilgrimages.

J.R.: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Sure. 

David: Yeah, so we know it fits in somehow, so I'm reading these Psalms, I'm thinking, okay, now what part of the pilgrimage does this describe? And that's kind of where I landed on this one. The other thing is in verse 1, I'll point out, it says, "Blessed are those who fear the Lord, and who walk in obedience to him."

And it's very much that idea of walking. And what do you do on a pilgrimage? You walk there, [00:29:00] right? It's easy to take that in the way we would take it today. You know, walk in obedience to God. But I think almost there's a more literal meaning to this idea of, you know, Blessed are those who walk in obedience, who take pilgrimage in obedience to God.

J.R.: Okay, yeah. See, I hear walk in obedience, and I sort of hear that, as you're going principle of obedience. That it's not just a Sunday morning thing, that it's not just a ritual, it's as you go through life, walk through obedience. And let it, let it, yeah, let it infiltrate every area of your soul, of your life.

David: Yeah. Well, there is that higher meaning, but I think... I think the word here, walk, is the same way in the New Testament that the word peripateo is used, which means to walk. And, so you and I encountered this again on our trip, is that the pathway leading up to the Acropolis in Athens was called the, [00:30:00] I think it's called the Peripatos. I may be mispronouncing that. But it means the walkway, and it also means the sacred way.

J.R.: Right, the sacred path, yeah. Right? 

David: There, there's something sacred about walking the sacred path. The ascent. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. That it's not just about the destination. 

David: Right, and it's much more than just, oh, I gotta walk there. Right. No, walking is part of the experience. <Yes.> And then, from that, we can build up to these higher levels, where, that's where we get the idea of walking, especially in the New Testament, as walking has to do with your relationship with God. But the imagery was grounded on literally walking from place to place, you know?

J.R.: Yeah, it was built into the ascent. Yeah. 

David: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And so I think the same word as being well, obviously in the Old Testament word, the Old Testament word is halak, but there again, very much this idea of walking, literal walking, [00:31:00] as an image of living your life, you know? 

J.R.: Yes, yeah, that's right.

David: Yeah, so I think that's the picture of this, is those who are committed in obedience to God to honoring these pilgrimages, however often you could make them, you know, your family would be blessed. That's what this psalms talks about, right? Yeah, your wife will be a fruitful vine. Your kids will be olive shoots. I guess that's a good thing in the Old Testament, right?

J.R.: Yeah, sounds like a win. 

David: Your little olive shoot. How's the little olive shoot doing? 

J.R.: That's right. But it is, it is, it is a good example of when you build these things into your life as opposed to, you know, like we would say modern day, we would say something like the Bible's not just a bunch of do's and don'ts do this, don't do that, it's a way to live your life. And I think that's what they're saying with the, the principle of obedience here is ingrain this into your life and it will benefit you. It will not only benefit you, it will benefit your family. It's almost like muscle memory , to your [00:32:00] family or to your children that they're going to see you live this out. And they're going to see that it means more than just a list of do's and don'ts. You know, dad said, don't do this. Or mom said, don't do that. Right. <Right.> That it's, they see you live it out. And so when you build that principle in your family, it does make a difference. We've heard this, the saying do as I say, don't do as I do, you know. which is obviously a terrible, terrible way to go, you know, but yeah, people probably saw that. And when I see the significance of mom and dad taking this pilgrimage and bringing us along, I can see that their faith is ingrained into their actions, not just they said, do this. And I better do this or I'm going to get in trouble. Right. It's much more of a walk.

David: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a good summary of this Psalm is it's really about, hey, incorporate pilgrimage into your spiritual life, as we would say it, and you will see the blessings, [00:33:00] you know, flow through you and your family, right? <Yeah.> Which is a cool image. That's a cool image. <Sure.> Alright, yeah, so let's do one more. Let's look at Psalm 135, which this is the last of the Psalms of ascent, and then we will take a radically different tone in the rest of this podcast. <Okay.> We'll talk about the descent, but let's let's hit on the last one here and look at what this one is talking about. I'm just gonna read a couple of verses because then we're gonna talk through the middle section of this psalm. Verse one starts out, "Praise the Lord. Praise the name of the Lord. Praise him, you servants of the Lord, you who minister in the house of the Lord, in the courts of the house of our God. Praise the Lord, for the Lord is good. Sing praise to his name, for that is pleasant. The Lord has chosen Jacob to be his own, Israel to be his treasured possession. I know that the Lord is great, that our Lord is greater than all gods."

I'm gonna stop there because this sounds like, we talked about this before, the typical psalm, you [00:34:00] know, praise the name of the Lord, praise the Lord, all that. But, the way that I read this first part of this psalm is that it talks about those who are ministering in the house of the Lord. So I almost picture this as the culmination of the pilgrimage, right? That you're actually standing in the temple. <Right.> And you're, so what would you do? You're praising God, that you're finally there. You're standing in the middle of the temple. You're looking at those who minister in the house of the Lord. The Lord is good. He brought you there safely. That's kind of how I look at this one, right? <Right. Yeah.> Now, verse 5 and the following verses, and we can work our way through this real quick, but verse 5 hits on this idea of when we talked about ancient trash talk, right? and the divine counsel as well. I know that the Lord is great, that our Lord is greater than all gods.

J.R.: Yeah. You know, we talked about that last week. 

David: We talked about that last time that, you know, okay, there are other gods out there, but our Lord is greater than those gods.

J.R.: Right. [00:35:00] Other, other Elohim.

David: Other Elohim. Yeah. Yeah. <Yeah. That's right.> So as this Psalm progresses, then , it starts to expand on this idea of, our God is greater than other gods. He makes the clouds rise from the ends of the earth. But then in verse 8 it says, "He strikes down the firstborn of Egypt, the firstborn of peoples and animals. And He sent signs and wonders into your midst, Egypt, against Pharaoh and all of his servants." Okay, so what's going on here, and why did this suddenly turn to Egypt? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right. We're seeing the pattern here. 

David: Yeah, so, and I'm, this is another thing I'm learning, is that when I start to see this reference to Egypt in the Psalms, it's going to reenact the Exodus. Right?

J.R.: Right? And I'm, yeah, that makes sense. 

David: Yeah, and I'm learning to pay attention to that, because once you see Egypt mentioned, the following verses are probably going to describe some aspect of the Exodus. [00:36:00] <Right.> And that kind of sets the tone. So now this Psalm 135 introduces this idea of Egypt. So what, where's it going with this?

And I would put to you that what's happening is that it's actually comparing pilgrimage to this idea of the Exodus, right? So, okay, part of pilgrimage is reenacting the Exodus. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's interesting because you, you think of a pilgrimage and it's a journey toward a destination, which I, it definitely ties into the Exodus, but I think of the Exodus as leaving slavery casting off bondage, that type thing. Now, obviously the promised land is there, but yeah, it goes back to the understanding of that necessary wilderness . You can't just leave Egypt and go directly to the promised land. Right. Right. Yeah, that necessary journey. And so, yeah, that makes sense, that the pilgrimage kind of replays that idea.

David: Yeah, you brought up this point of, to get to Egypt to the Promised Land, you have to travel through the wilderness, and I, I think that's [00:37:00] where it's not only being led out of slavery in Egypt, it's traveling through the wilderness. And it's arriving at your destination, which is the promised land.

So in that way, I think it mirrors pilgrimage. And, you know, any kind of... We talked about this before in previous episodes, but anytime... we're not talking about just any vacation, like a trip to the beach, right? We're talking about specifically something with a spiritual aspect to it, to a biblical aspect to it. Something meaningful, a retreat really kind of sets pilgrimage apart from just a family vacation, right?

J.R.: Right, yeah, spiritual journey. 

David: Right, and so you are very much leaving something behind, and I think that's true, really. That's been my experience as I leave on a retreat, or if we take a trip to Greece or Israel or something like that. There is this sense where you are leaving something behind, because you want to come back different, right? [00:38:00] <Right.> And there's going to be a wilderness. There's going to be, whether it's just the plane ride, or whether it's going to get, you know, your flight gets canceled the day before you leave.

J.R.: Yeah, sure. Travel's a hassle, yeah.

David: Sure, right. And so, all that is going to have to be overcome before you arrive at your destination. And so in that way, I think, pilgrimage very much is almost a re enactment of the Exodus, which is, I think, what this psalm is bringing out here. 

J.R.: Okay, yeah, that's interesting. And at the end it says, you know, again, it says, Praise God from Zion. It has that idea of Zion. 

David: Right, because that was the end point, right? 

J.R.: Right, right. Well, it's interesting, I just googled Zion is interesting to me because it means City of Holiness. And, you know, earlier in the other psalm we were talking about, you know, cities in the Bible. are typically not bastions of morality, right? There's an implied unholiness to cities in the Bible. Speaking of other cities of Babylon and Sodom and [00:39:00] Gomorrah and things like that. <Right.> Yeah. And so cities actually have a negative connotation, but as we said earlier, you know, they were protection from the unknown outside. So there's kind of this trade off of protection at the expense of, what, principles or morals or something like that, right?

But Zion is this uncommon holy city where we kind of find both the protection of a city, but we don't have to give up our principles to live there. Does that make any sense? 

David: Yeah, yeah, okay. 

J.R.: Yeah, there's just a general idea of cities in the Bible. It's not a positive image, typically. <Right.> So when I found that, you know, when I see that Zion is City of Holiness, I thought, oh, that's kind of interesting, it's a place where you don't have all the negative aspects of the typical city that the Bible describes. You don't have to give up your principles to go there. This is a place where it actually ties all those things together. There's not a trade off. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. . Yeah. So Psalm 135 on the surface, the first time I read it, [00:40:00] I thought, man, this is jumping all over the place. But then if you see it as the reenactment of the Exodus and that as the kind of basis for pilgrimage, then that the Psalms make sense, because I'm going to skip through this really quick. But verse 11 says "Sihon, king of the Amorites, Og, king of Bashan and all the kings of Canaan." And again, there's a lot of imagery in those names that are being thrown out.

J.R.: Oh, yeah, sure.

David: We've talked about that, but he gave their land as an inheritance and as an inheritance to his people. So now they're approaching the promised land. And they're going to have to take it from these pagan kings, right? <Right.> One might say giants, even. 

J.R.: Sure. Sure. Og. Yeah, Og is synonymous with giants. 

David: Yeah, right. So, you know I'm skipping ahead then. "The Lord will vindicate his people. The idols of these nations are silver gold made by human hands. They have mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot see." So we talked about, actually, that phrase [00:41:00] in a previous episode. So now it's talking about... Yeah, trash talk. We talked about how now they're kind of trash talking their idols, but, you know, very much challenging the spirit behind those idols. And again, this is Israel taking the promised land. So David just didn't switch gears to talk about idols, right? This is all encompassed in taking the promised land. Right. 

J.R.: And therefore, all encompassed in, in every pilgrimage. 

David: Right, right. Yeah. And so then it ends with, "All you Israel, praise the Lord, house of Aaron, praise the Lord." That was the priest. "Levi, praise the Lord, you who fear and praise the Lord."

And then what you said, "Praise the Lord from Zion to him who dwells in Jerusalem." So finally they've arrived. And so I really think that's a cool image of a pilgrimage as reenacting the Exodus. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, that's super interesting. I like that. I, well, it's just one of those things you, we think of a pilgrimage as a little simplistic of, well, I'm packing up, I need to go to the holy city [00:42:00]and you know, we got to do this two or three times a year or maybe once a year and you don't really see the whole process until you kind of see it tied in with leaving Egypt behind, going out to the wilderness and arriving at the promised land, you know? <Yeah, yeah.> And you see it a little bit more clearly through that pattern or image. 

David: Yeah, so that's just a couple of the Psalms. Like I said, there's 15 of them. I think we only looked at about four or so, but it's, it is interesting with that backdrop to then go back and read all of those different Psalms that are called the Songs of Ascent, and you can almost pick out what stage of the journey they're on, so to speak. You know, or what aspect of the pilgrimage that this is really talking about, which I think is really cool. 

J.R.: Right, right. Just that image of the mountain all together is neat. That depiction representing, you know, this progressive focus as we advance toward the summit, you know. <Right.> And yeah, that there's actually stages in there. It's not just a quick journey. Like I said, you just can't go from Egypt to the Promised Land. There's [00:43:00] stages that we have to go through to make that, finish that process. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. And you're right. That's very much captured in this symbol of ascending the holy mountain or ascending the mountain of God. <Right.> It's a progression. It can be dangerous. But the closer you get to that journey, you know, you start to get clarity of this is what I came here for. I came to be in the presence of God. We talked about that theme as well, but that's what this mountain of God represents and the ascending of it.

J.R.: Yeah, so it's worth going back and listening to The Ascent. We kind of dig in this a little bit more and we didn't have completely time to go to that depth, but it's worth going back and listening to that. But there's another part to this that you were saying earlier. 

David: Yes. There's another part. So whatever the old saying, you know, what goes up must come down, right? <Right.> So we talked about the ascent. We talked about the mountain of God. But there's also a lot of imagery throughout the Psalms of, we can summarize this as the [00:44:00]descent. Now, you and I briefly talked about the descent as one part of the journey back home, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. It's, the descent was, in that episode, was more about, yeah, coming off of the ascent and letting it change your life. But this is, this is something a little bit different, deeper, right? A little darker here. 

David: There's, there's very surface level understanding of the descent, which means, okay, you've experienced this, you've stood in Jerusalem, and now it's time to go back to your normal life, whatever your village is, or, you know, wherever you lived. Same thing on a pilgrimage today, you got to return home. But there is also there seems to be this warning of descending almost too far, if you think of it that way. Because there are a lot of these Psalms that talk about going down to the pit, and we're gonna, we're gonna look into some of these and some of the terminology. But really, it's, if you picture the mountain and descending, and then, you know, the base of the mountain is kind of your everyday [00:45:00] life, it's almost a warning of saying, don't descend too far. And this image really helps me, this symbol of the mountain, really helps me because, look, once we descend beyond the city, you know, beyond the city walls, we're back in the wilderness, but we can't stay there too long, or we have to be careful when we're there, because there's a danger of descending too far into the chaos and into the unknown.

J.R.: Yeah, it's just that understanding of sacred geography, you know, understanding that, that, that they're, they're talking about mountains and valleys are not merely mountains and valleys. They represent something, you know. Right. And, , even I was thinking about this, the Genesis creation story can kind of be seen as this progressive movement from disorder to order. You know, and in the end, you kind of see these three levels. You see this, the heavens, you see the land, which is where humans reside, and you see the underworld.

And I mean, that's for another podcast to discuss all that. [00:46:00] But what I'm, I'm just trying to point out that you do see the same pattern there as you do here. <Yeah. Yeah. Okay.> The sacred geography. 

David: Yeah, it's all through there. And so I think that idea of sacred geography is when you start to understand that, that's a good backdrop for what we're about to talk about. Because at this point. There may be people are going, man, these guys went off the rails. What are they talking about? But let's get specific here. What we're talking about. So the first one we're going to look at is Psalm 30, because there's a number of Psalms that have a strikingly different tone to them. <Yeah. Yeah.> And so Psalm 30 verse I'll read verse one through three, and then we can kind of start to unpack this idea of the descent. Okay. And again, this one says of David. So again, traditionally, it is attributed to David. A lot of these actually are attributed to David, and I'm talking specifically about these songs of descending because we also know that there are songs from the exile I always kind of lump [00:47:00] everything in that David wrote the Psalms, but we also know there's a number of Psalms that were written by other people at different times, but I just wanted to point out that we're, this one at least is traditionally attributed to King David.

I will exalt you, Lord, for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me. Lord my God, I called to you for help and you healed me. You brought me out from the realm of the dead and you spared me from going down to the pit."

Now I'll stop right there because there's two or three references to this idea of David was in the depths. He was calling out from the pit, and the Lord delivered him. <Right.> Right. And so when we're talking about the descent, we're going to talk about this language of the depths. We're going to talk about this language of the pit and the realm of the dead. 

J.R.: Right. Even what you read was probably from, what, the NIV or something like that. <Right. Yeah.> If you kind of look through it, you see this verse differs from one translation to another. You know, the realm of the dead and in many translations [00:48:00] says Sheol or some says hell or Hades and others are less specific. They'll simply say death or the grave. And so before we get into what all this means, why is there such a wide variety of interpretations there? 

David: Okay, so yeah, so we'll get into that a little bit, but some of it is this tendency of modern translations to want to smooth over and make it more readable, which in a lot of ways is helpful, but it can also blur the original meaning. Yeah, so a word like we're going to talk about this one next, but a word like Sheol doesn't mean anything to us right? <Right.> and so the other thing I would say is because. Every one of these words that you just kind of went through has layers of meaning to it, and that's where I want to start with this psalm, is this idea of the pit, because... <Okay.> this idea of the pit is mentioned several times in the Psalms.

And the pit sometimes translated, the grave. I think you said [00:49:00] that. Mm hmm. Again, I think when we talk about the grave in our modern society, we separate the idea that there's a body buried in that grave, but the spirit isn't there, right? If we visit the grave of someone, we go, especially if it's a loved one or a family member we still think, well, they're in heaven, right? But I'm visiting the grave. <Right, right, right, right.> So, in the ancient world the grave, though, symbolized an entranceway down to the underworld. It was the first step in the descent. And there's, it's much more clear in actually what that word means than just saying the pit, or trying to project this idea of descent on the pit, because the pit can literally be a grave, it can be a well and it also can mean to descend into, right?

Okay. So it actually is wrapped up in that word, the pit. But again, in the ancient world, this idea of a pit or a [00:50:00] grave, or even a well. Right? Yeah. A well could be seen as an entrance to the underworld. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. That's interesting. Okay. Yeah, I would see the pit and my modern translation would say that either means hell or it could mean the grave. It could go either one of those. Yeah, but yeah, not much nuance beyond that. 

David: Right. And it could be a grave, but it could also be literally a pit. And so, even something like when Joseph is thrown in a well.

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to ask about that.

David: Yeah, yeah, okay, so, you're on the same page here. So even when someone like Joseph is thrown in a well, there's deeper meaning than that he was thrown into a little hole in the ground, 

And to be thrown in a pit, again, in the ancient world would be descending dangerously to the underworld. It would have that meaning to it. <Right.> So again, Joseph wasn't just thrown in an empty well. Joseph was being cast into the underworld. [00:51:00] Now, that didn't always mean that you died, just as when David talks about being in a pit or going down to the pit, like, it doesn't mean he died. But he meant he feared for his life, not only because of the circumstances he was in, but also this idea that I'm, I'm getting dangerously close to losing my soul to the underworld. It would have that idea to it. 

J.R.: Well, modern, you know, you talk about a pit, I'm stuck in a pit. What you're saying is, I'm depressed, I'm caught up in my own yeah, and, and so I guess we kind of have carried that symbolism forward a little bit, that we can get lost in our own minds, we can feel like we're on the precipice of death. I guess that holds true to ancients would have seen that. 

David: Yeah, that's a good analogy. We say I'm down in the dumps. You know, I'm in the valley right now. I'm in a pit. Like, we all know what that means. <Right, right.> And so, it's that same idea that there's a lot of meaning attached to something as simplistic as [00:52:00] a pit or a grave or a well.

J.R.: Yeah, but is there much more to that than just the imagery of it? Or is this a real place? Is this a... 

David: Yeah, we're going to get to that next because in this psalm, just to wrap up Psalm 30 then, you know, here's David saying, "You lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me." So one of the things that's going on here, of course, is David literally feared for his life because 

J.R.: Was Saul after him here?

David: Yes, he was a fugitive, right? Saul's chasing him. And so, he's in caves, he's hiding out, I think he goes and hides out with the Philistines, even at one point. But very much fearing for his life. But the way David describes all this, all throughout the Psalms is, you know, you lifted me out of the depths you called me out of the pit, out of the realm of the dead. And so, you know right there that all those words mean the same thing. And that's why the pit is more than just a hole in the ground. It is the entranceway to the realm of the dead, [00:53:00] because it's all in verse 3 right there, right? He's saying the same thing. Okay, so. 

J.R.: Yeah, so on one layer, it is as simple as the way we see it, as in the pit, I'm down in the dumps, I'm depressed, you know. <Yeah.> But as, yeah, as we're about to find out, it actually means a little bit more. 

David: It means more than that, yeah. Okay. So, let's move on to another example of this in Psalm 6.

J.R.: Okay, yeah, Psalm 6 says, "Lord do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath. Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am faint. Heal me. Lord, for my bones are in agony. My soul is in deep anguish. How long, Lord, how long? Turn, Lord, and deliver me. Save me because of your unfailing love. Among the dead, no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?" Yes. Okay, so where, yeah, what's he saying there?

David: Yeah, so, initially it sounds like he had a bad day. <Right.> Right, so, you know, he had a bad day, and, you know, David kind of has [00:54:00] a flair for the dramatic sometimes, you know, so it's easy to read it that way, but verse five specifically, he's like, how long my soul's in deep anguish. But then verse five specifically, among the dead, no one proclaims your name.

Well, that's kind of ...

J.R.: Took, yeah, he took a little bit of a weird detour. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. And then it says, "Who praises you from the grave?" Now that's that word again, the grave. Yeah. So the word there is Sheol. Okay. And you'll see that translated various ways throughout the Old Testament, but again, in the NIV, my version, I'm looking at it, it says, who praises you from the grave, but it literally says, who praises you from Sheol. <Okay.> And that's a word used all throughout the Psalms. 

J.R.: Right, and that's a proper name, a proper place, right? 

David: Yes. So, what is Sheol? Sheol is the place of the dead as the people of the Old Testament understood it. Okay. 

J.R.: Okay. Is that, would this be the Egyptian underworld? The [00:55:00] understanding of, purgatory is, is it something like that? 

David: Well, so what we're starting to hit on is our ideas of what we've heard of heaven and hell and purgatory. But you've got to remember, none of those things were actually developed at the time of the Old Testament and even in the ancient world. So, gotta take a step back here and say, okay, what is Sheol? Sheol is the realm of the dead, or the underworld. And what did the ancients believe about the underworld? Right?

And it raises another question, and this might be the better way to approach this whole idea is, because I was studying this a couple weeks ago, reading this, and I'm thinking, so David's having a bad day here, right? But all of a sudden it turns into this idea of, among the dead, no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from Sheol? So, like, wow, I mean, David is suddenly, almost imploring [00:56:00] God not to banish him to the underworld, almost. 

J.R.: Yeah, which is, yeah, seems a little bit, like you said, a little bit dramatic.

David: A little bit dramatic, right? So it raised a bigger question, is why was David, and this isn't the first time this happens in the Psalms, why was he afraid of being sent to Sheol? Why was David constantly, not, I won't say constantly afraid, but on several occasions he seems to express fear of being sent to Sheol.

J.R.: Well he's never been told about the assurance of salvation. 

David: Right. He just didn't read the right modern theology textbook, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. He didn't read the letters of, yeah, Romans? Come on. 

David: Yeah. No, but I think you hit on something, because the more I thought about this, and I did some reading myself to back this up, but, so the Old Testament doesn't have a developed idea of heaven and hell. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's interesting. You're saying that it's not really mentioned... No. at all, or... [00:57:00]

David: No. So, Sheol is where everyone goes. It's the underworld, when they die. And to help us understand what is meant by Sheol, it also helps to understand a little bit of Greek literature as well, because it was being developed around the same time. You can see it in some of the Greek myths, but then Plato and Socrates come along and... Socrates, in particular, actually starts to talk about what the underworld is. 

J.R.: Yeah, the underworld is very Egyptian, very Greek, yeah, very mythological, yes. 

David: It's the ancient mindset. 

J.R.: Right, and so we don't really associate that to biblical thinking. 

David: Right, but it's very much in the Old Testament. So, Socrates, as he's facing his own death, it's interesting because there's a place in Plato's Apology where Socrates is talking, and he's talking to the jurors who are about to condemn him to death. And he basically says, you know, look, I don't fear death. [00:58:00] And he says, death is one of two things. This, I'm summarizing Socrates argument here. He says, death is one of two things. It's either a long sleep, like, basically, your soul just goes to sleep and you're done, right? Right. Which he says, kind of humorously, like, which doesn't sound like a bad thing. 

J.R.: Not a bad deal. I'm tired, right?

David: I'm tired. I'm worn out. If it's just a long slumber and sleep, then I'm okay with that. 

J.R.: I can handle that. Sign me up.

David: Yeah. But the second thing he says, or he goes you know, or I will go to the underworld and I'll spend time with the heroes of old. And he mentions like Heracles and Odysseus and Perseus, right? <Okay.> So his logic, his reasoning is, well, If you go to the underworld and you get to hang out with some of these heroes of old, that doesn't sound like a bad deal either. 

J.R.: Yeah, okay. Right? Yeah, well, I can see his line of thinking. 

David: Yeah, so he says, so he very much says, so either way, he goes, I don't fear death because this is his, the Greek conception of the [00:59:00] underworld. Now there's another myth that Plato records, and I'm not going to remember the details, but he talks about it's the myth of Er, it's E-R, I think. It's the myth of Er who actually goes and travels through the underworld, which sheds a little bit more light on Greek thinking of the underworld, too. But their conception was, to summarize, everyone, when they died, went to the underworld. 

J.R.: Yeah, so it's not necessarily a terrible place. 

David: Right, right. Now, Plato and Socrates begin to develop this idea that if you lived a virtuous life, then the underworld was nothing to fear, because you would hang out with other virtuous people. That's what he was talking about when he talks about the heroes of old. Well, it wouldn't be bad hanging out with... Heracles, right? Hercules, in Romanized name. So that's not a bad thing, but there's also this idea that if you weren't a virtuous person, then the underworld wasn't going to be a very pleasant place for you.

J.R.: Okay, yeah, yeah. [01:00:00] Basically, your deeds define what stage of the underworld you're gonna be cast to. 

David: Right, right. But there wasn't this distinction of heaven and hell. We don't see that come along until the Incarnation, until the New Testament. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's interesting, that heaven... I mean, Heaven, you thought, you would think, would definitely be in the Old Testament.

David: Yeah, but there really isn't any idea of, you know, oh, I'm going to go to Heaven when I die. And I think that explains why David, in several different places in the Psalms, is almost expressing concern about being sent to Sheol. 

J.R.: Well, that, opens up that other idea of, I've thought this before, is how did you know you were saved in the Old Testament? <Yeah.> You know, and, and we talked about, well, you kept the commandments, or you, you know, like the, the rich young rule that came to Jesus. I've kept the commandments all my days. Basically, it's something along the lines of, yeah, I was a really good person, and I was part of God's chosen people and I acknowledged or observed all the [01:01:00]festivals and things like that, right? <Right.> But it was still tied into your actions and your deeds in life. 

David: Right. So there was an aspect of being part of the Israelites, the people of God. But even all throughout the Old Testament, you can, you can see that, hey, just because you're part of ethnic Israel doesn't mean you're in. <Oh, right.> So there, it was more about the proper relationship to the covenant. Okay. But it wasn't really distinguished what that meant after you died.

There was this sense that God was going to preserve Israel, but there wasn't really a clear sense of what that meant for someone who died, right? And so, one of the things I think you also see in David, being worried about ending up in Sheol, is that, you know, David made mistakes along the way, right? He was a fugitive. He was hanging out with the Philistines. He was messing around with Bathsheba, right? [01:02:00] So, but there would have been a fear of saying, okay, in certain moments, I am not in right relationship with the covenant. 

J.R.: Okay. Yeah, that's it. So it's a little bit more defined than just David worrying all the time that am I saved? Am I not saved? Am I going to heaven? You know, that type thing that we kind of wrestle with today. It's tied in directly to the covenant and whether he was, you know, he was cast out of the city. He's, he's on it on the run. And so he can't do all these ritualistic things with the temple and yeah, he felt like he wasn't in a good place in relationship to the covenant and so therefore he was unsure, that if I die, am I going to go to a bad part of the underworld or am I going to be in the good part of the underworld?

David: Right, right, right. Yeah, I think, I think that's right. It was about alignment with the covenant when you're on the run, when you're not, you know, aligned with the things that God's asking you, there's some, concern of, hey, am I in a good spot here? What happened if I would [01:03:00] die right now? What happened if Saul's troops catch me right now? <Right.> And kill me. What does that mean for my soul, right? 

J.R.: It's interesting because you just don't think of Old Testament, especially great Old Testament characters, Abraham, David, Isaac. You don't think of them struggling with their, what we would call salvation. And I realized that wasn't a term that they understood in the Old Testament. But yeah, that they struggled with their relationship to God. You just don't really picture that very much. <Right, right.> Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting. 

David: Yeah. So I think it comes out of this undefined idea of what happens even if you were declared righteous, I think you know, people like Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, I think there was an understanding that if I am declared righteous before God then I don't necessarily have to fear what's to come, but I don't know what is to come, you know? <Right.> That it might be this idea of the underworld is gonna be not a bad place for someone like me. Yeah. It's kind of this Greek conception. And [01:04:00] it's not really till we get to the New Testament, which this could be an entirely different episode.

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to say, I've got all kinds of questions right now. 

David: Right, this conception of heaven and hell. So, one of the things that, you know, I think you said it once, that... Interpreting something like this as hell that's putting a later concept back into the Old Testament that wasn't there.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's adding something unnecessary to the original context and meaning. 

David: Yeah, yeah, because, you know, we all know what hell is, you know, damnation and devils with pitchforks and all that. <Right.> That wasn't the ancient idea of the pit or the realm of the dead or Sheol, right? Yeah. Because everyone went to that place, basically.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. This is making me think of all kinds of things. Maybe it's just a whole nother episode. 

David: Yeah. We'll have to get into that later. So hopefully a phrase like this, then in Psalm 6:5, you know, "Among the dead, no one proclaims your name." cause you're just, you're in the underworld now.

Who praises your name from the [01:05:00] grave, right? <Right.> So the idea is like. God, don't send me there yet because I still have things to do. Which again, once you get to the New Testament and say you kind of equate heaven with the kingdom of God, that we would say, no, in the next life in God's kingdom, you know, we will be praising your name. And you don't see that in the Old Testament. 

J.R.: Yeah. And it's interesting just because it's so easy to project our understanding of salvation back onto the Old Testament characters, which is clearly not the case. 

David: Right. Right. Yeah, we have to kind of keep the Old Testament at Old Testament times. Greek philosophy and mythology help us bridge that gap, but then, yeah, it's not till you get to the New Testament that really the Incarnation, and the whole idea too is like bodily resurrection. Because keep in mind too, in the New Testament who was it? The Sadducees didn't believe in bodily resurrection, right? 

J.R.: That was a wild idea. 

David: Yeah, that was crazy. And the same thing [01:06:00] happened when Paul's talking with Greek philosophers. Paul brings up the resurrection of the dead, and he loses them.

They're like, ahh, 

J.R.: Now you're just going completely nuts. 

David: Yeah, you've gone off the rails here, Paul. You know, we were tracking with you, but yeah, everyone knows there's no bodily resurrection. <Right.> And so that's very much that transition between your body went to the underworld and that was it, right? Your body's in the grave, your soul goes to the underworld. This idea of a bodily resurrection? That's nuts, but we don't encounter that till we get to the New Testament. 

J.R.: Right, it took Paul to come along, or somebody like Paul, to clarify these thoughts. 

David: Yeah, it took Jesus actually demonstrating it, teaching about it, and then people like Paul and Peter actually start teaching about it and saying, okay, this then is what happens after we die.

J.R.: Okay, yeah. No, that's, that's, that's interesting. But, and, and still just that idea of how they viewed death or how they viewed the underworld. You just want to go back in time and ask them. <I [01:07:00] know, yeah.> Do you think that there's a place? Do you really think that it's under the earth? Do you really think it's in the depths of the sea or whatever, you know?

David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's go to Psalm 18 and look at another example of this. Now, again, the notes, as this chapter begins, this is of David when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hands of Saul. So this is directly related to escaping Saul's grip.

Verse one says, "I love you, Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my deliverer. My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. I call to the Lord who is worthy of praise, and I have been saved from my enemies. The cords of death entangled me. The torrents of destruction overwhelmed me. The cords of the grave coiled around me, and the snares of death confronted me." Now, that's pretty graphic language right there. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Sounds like a modern horror film. 

David: Yeah, the cords of the grave, [01:08:00] which tells you again that this is more than just the idea of my body's going to lie in a grave, right?

J.R.: Right. Well, the idea that the grave actively pulls you down. 

David: Right. Which, kind of reinforces this idea, then, that the grave is more than the grave, the grave is the entrance to the underworld. 

J.R.: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. It's not just this passive idea of, yeah, he died. 

David: He died and his body was put there, and, you know.

J.R.: Yeah, it's almost like there's a magnetic attraction pulling you toward the grave. 

David: Right, right. Right, okay. And again, the word here, the cords of the grave, coiled around me, the word there, grave, is Sheol. Okay, so this is another example of where he's saying "The torrents of destruction overwhelmed me, the cords of death strangled me, the cords of Sheol coiled around me."

I mean, it's a very graphic, scary picture of being pulled down into the underworld, right? <Right.> The snares of death confronted me. So, just more interesting language of [01:09:00] how, again, we see this. Like, David's on the run, Saul's chasing him down, and David is expressing this fear that not only he would die, but what happens after I die? Right? <Yeah.> The chords of death are dragging me to Sheol, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Well, and, and I don't think we're overstating it. I think there's a tendency to say, well, he's just be using poetic language and that's true. But the poetic language actually points to what he believed happened, right? I mean, yeah, yeah. What he understood death to be that it wasn't just a static state of I'm alive and now I'm dead. It's that there's a wilderness journey that I'm going to have to go through. And it's pulling me down to the underworld, and yeah, it does. It ties together that whole pattern, that the way they viewed things.

David: Yeah, I think that's a interesting way of putting it, that, you know, if you're in the right relationship with God, if you're sitting in the palace in Jerusalem, you know, everything's good, you don't [01:10:00] walk around fearful of any of this. But when adversity strikes, I think you're right, it's almost described ...

Well, let's go back to this idea I think we talked about last episode. What's happening in the physical realm is mirrored in the spiritual realm. In the spiritual realm, yes. Okay. So that's what's happening here. So right, if I'm on the run, if Saul is chasing me, I'm hiding out in those caves in Qumran, remember those, right? <That was awesome.> En Gedi and all those places, and we know that's where David was talking about in at least some of these cases, then there's a spiritual battle going on too. And 

J.R.: a corresponding spiritual battle.

David: That's where I think you get this imagery of the cords of death. And it wasn't just saying, Oh, it was scary. It's literally saying this is what's happening in the spiritual realm as I'm acting this out in the physical realm. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's interesting. Yeah. I love that. 

David: Yeah. So that's another layer to this idea of the descent and Sheol. Let's look at a couple more real quick and then we'll wrap this up. Psalm 69 [01:11:00] is an interesting one.

J.R.: Alright. The first read three verses of Psalm 69 say, "Save me. Oh God. For the waters have come up to my neck, I sink into the miry depths. Where there is no foothold. I have come into the deep waters. The floods engulf me. I am worn out for calling for help. My throat is parched and my eyes fail looking for God."

So yeah, this idea that he's drowning, obviously, you know, that same kind of poetic imagery. But is there something more there than trying to just point out that I'm dying here, right? 

David: Yeah, I think it's much more than we would just say, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm drowning at work today, <Right, right.> I think it's more of that idea of there's a spiritual battle going on in this predicament that David finds himself in. And here, the image is not so much of Sheol, but it is this idea of the waters represent chaos, right? And the depths of the waters represent - that's the realm of the Leviathan [01:12:00] and you know, ultimately the underworld. <Yeah, yeah, yeah.> Would be at the very depth. So, I think it actually starts to get to that idea. That when David's talking about the waters have risen up, I sink in the miry depths. Like, this is the flood coming, chaos is everywhere, he even calls out into the deep waters, okay? And again, the deep waters would be closer to the underworld than you would like to be, right?

J.R.: Sure, sure. Well again, this goes back to the creation story, where God tells the seas to bring forth life but then it says he created the Leviathan, which seems a little strange, you know, like why would God create this awful creature in the depths, you know. But then when you understand that the ancients would have seen the oceans, obviously, as a place of increasing disorder, the further away from land that you got right there because the oceans give you food and give you life if close into shore, right? But the further you way you get, man, [01:13:00] it gets to be a mess out there, right? For obvious reasons, they thought this. <Yeah.> So kind of this increasing disorder, the further away you got.

David: Yeah, yeah. So this idea of the deep waters I'm sinking is very much wrapped up in this idea of the descent. I've descended too far, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. I've gone too far I'm in too much chaos. Yeah. 

Okay, 14 and 15 say, "Rescue me from the mire. Do not let me sink. Deliver me from those who hate me. From the deep waters. Do not let the floodwaters engulf me, or the depths swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me." So it's that imagery again of the pit is not just death or the grave. It's an active image of what's going on in the spiritual realm, and it's actively trying to pull him down. 

David: Yeah. Now, the pit here is not Sheol, but it is interesting that he's in the midst of these floodwaters in the depths, and he's still talking about the pit. So that goes to your point, that, this is a very active [01:14:00] spiritual thing that's happening. It's not just a pit in the ground. 

J.R.: Well, and you can't have a pit in the ocean, right? <Yeah.> So he's tying these two ideas together. 

David: Right. He's tying the two ideas together. That the depths is an entranceway into the underworld, just as a well on the land would be an entrance to the underworld. Or a cave as well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this is other, just other really interesting imagery and symbolism when you really think about what David is talking about. And again, I go back to this question of, you know, man, why was David so worried about this? We don't walk around, if you're a Christian, at least I hope you don't in constant fear of going, what if I end up in hell at the end of the day, right? Right. You know, I'm gonna go to the store, but if I get in an accident, you know, what's gonna happen to me? 

J.R.: Yeah, I'm not in the right relationship. 

David: Right, so, I mean, fortunately, I don't think, well, if you really understand Christianity and faith, I don't think you have to worry about [01:15:00] all that. We can take that too far now sometimes. <Oh, sure.> But, you know, it's just interesting to see David wrestle with this stuff on what seems like pretty constant basis. 

J.R.: Yeah, and again, it's just like, it's so easy to project our idea of salvation back to the Old Testament and to realize that no, it wasn't that way. They didn't see things that way. <Yeah.> They held a more mythological ancient mindset. 

David: All right. One more, and then we'll wrap this up because this is an interesting one. I'm going to read Psalm, a couple of verses out of Psalm 95 real quick here. Verse 3 says, "The Lord is a great God, the great King above all gods." There's that imagery. It's actually, I say it's hard to read a psalm now and not encounter some of this imagery that we talked about somewhere. <There it is.> Yeah, can't get one verse to go. Yeah, there's another. 

J.R.: He's above all the other gods. 

David: Yeah. So verse 4 says, "In his hands are the depths of the earth, and the mountain peaks belong to him. The sea is his, for he made it, and his [01:16:00] hands formed the dry land." Now, in light of everything we've talked about, this is an interesting verse, as well. That at the end of the day, the depths of the earth, right? So, the depths of the earth contrasted with the mountain of God. Right. Right? The sea is his, for he made it.

And again, talking about drowning in the depths of the sea, the Leviathan you know, the chaos. But, the sea is his, for he made it. And in his hands are formed the dry land. What this is saying, I think, it's a good way to end. It's just saying, at the end of the day, all these places don't have to be so scary that we walk around in, you know, terrified of them if we really want to start adopting the ancient mindset. Because at the end of the day, there's still this acknowledgement that, look, God made all this, right? The other gods, the Leviathan. 

J.R.: And not just the physical world. It's not saying, you know, I would read that and say, yeah, God made the mountains and he made the oceans. But this is saying a little bit deeper. No, no, no. He made the underworld. He made the [01:17:00] heavens. They see this as a larger picture than just the material, physical earth. <Right. Yeah.> Right. There's no place you can escape the hand of God. Right. 

David: Right. Yeah. And there's another Psalm. I think we talked about it previously where David, despite everything we just read, David still says, where can I go from your presence? And the answer's nowhere. <Right.> So nowhere is beyond the reach of God. That's a good way to kind of wrap this up, even though we've talked about these images of the depths, the underworld, Sheol, the pit. At the end of the day, look, God made all this, and nowhere is beyond the reach of God. 

J.R.: Right. And proximity to holy places mattered in all the other ancient religions. And what this is saying is, even when we're far from the, we'll say the protection of Zion, right? It's available to us which is not the typical ancient way of looking at things because proximity to a holy place mattered. And that's why people went on pilgrimages and journeys to get [01:18:00] close to that holy place.

But the new paradigm is that the follower of Christ, I realize that's not Old Testament language either, but the follower of Christ has access to holiness and protection wherever we may be. Whether we're in Sheol, whether we're in, you know whatever part of life we're in as opposed to the ancient mindset of saying, no, no, you kind of have to be close to this temple, close to this even idol or something like that. Proximity mattered. Yeah. And this is sort of saying that proximity is worth pursuing, but it doesn't take you out of the realm of God's ability to affect and protect your life. 

David: Right. And you could, to go back to this idea, if you could be in the wilderness, in some place that is scary, unknown, but if you were oriented correctly to the covenant, then there was this sense that you had nothing to fear. 

J.R.: No, that's, that's good. It's, it's easy to read these verses and to assume that like, the mountain is the ideal place to be, and the wilderness is [01:19:00] someplace to be avoided. Right. But I think the better understanding is that both of these situations are not only a part of life, but they're used by God to shape us into, you know, the types of people that he can ultimately use. Yeah, yeah. And none of it's out of his reach, right? 

David: Right, none of it's out of its reach. One last thing I would say is this ties back to Psalm 24, where, if you didn't listen to the episode on Trash Talk, it's worth going back and listening to our talk about Psalm 24 because the image, if you remember, is of Yahweh storming the underworld palace of Baal. And the whole point of that is hey, Baal is sitting in this palace in the underworld, but Yahweh is coming, the true king of glory.

That's the language that's being used, and Yahweh is going to inhabit it. So we even bring this idea back then that even in the underworld, like Yahweh reigns, right? Yeah. And so we see that in the Psalms, too. So yeah, there's this tension, I guess, in the Psalms of, you know, what does it mean to descend into the pit and the [01:20:00] underworld and Sheol and to not really know what happens after you die. But also just clinging to the knowledge that, look, God created all this, God's in charge of it all at the end of the day. <Yeah.> And so you don't have to walk around in constant anxiety. Even though we see moments where David is wrestling with all this, the unknown. 

J.R.: Right, right. I just like that even though we kind of have this new understanding of what Old Testament people believed about the underworld and things like that, it still ties back to God reaches you wherever you're at. <Yeah.> You know, and that's kind of at the beginning when we said we're not bringing these things up to shake any type of belief or understanding of the Bible. We're actually bringing these things up to, first of all, you see that the way ancients viewed things obviously a little different than the way we view them as moderns. But also that that thread of truth is still there all through it, you know, and, and that it, that even though my understanding of what the ancients believed may be [01:21:00] surprising, the thread of truth through the Bible is still there and it still points to the same thing that it can actually reinforce your faith as opposed to shake it.

David: The way I kind of summarized all this in my own mind was, you know, we talked about the ascent, we talked about the descent. The image of the mountain really helps versus the wilderness. But really, I've come to the conclusion that it makes me ask in my own life, not so much where I'm at, because again, that idea of God is everywhere, but it's like, what's the trajectory right now? Like, which direction am I heading?

J.R.: Heading up or down, right?

David: Yeah. Am I heading up or down? And I think that's a good question to ask every now and then, just in general, you know, am I ascending or am I descending? <Right.> With all that ancient understanding wrapped up in that. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. I love that. Well, it's also what we talked about earlier. The idea of the wilderness is, that's where people met God. That's where, that's, I mean, it sounds like a scary place. But Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the Israelites, they were [01:22:00] all called into the wilderness, and they met God there. <Yes.> They didn't meet Him in the camp.

David: A lot of transformational things happen in the wilderness. Yes, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Well, any other final thoughts on anything we've talked about? 

J.R.: No. pretty much covers it. I really enjoyed this one. This is interesting because it's one of those things that I really will read the Psalms and, the Old Testament differently, you know, through a little bit different lens. <Yeah.> But yeah, it adds to it. 

David: Yeah. There was a lot more to this one than I anticipated when we started talking about it and, you know, looking at some of the Psalms and writing some notes. The more I got into this. Yeah, it's there's a lot more there than I realized. So 

J.R.: Yes, many many rabbit trails. Yes Yeah, what do we have next week is next week the last week?

David: Yeah, so next episode will be the last one in this series and It's called Know Your Enemy. And it's not going to be so much about specific symbolism that we've talked about in previous episodes, as it will be just a general way [01:23:00] to read some of the things you see in the Psalms, especially on the Psalms where David is talking about my enemies are after me. There's a more spiritualized way that we kind of learn from some of the early church fathers that has helped me. It kind of changed the way I read the Psalms about five years ago, so we'll be talking about that next episode, and that'll wrap us up. 

J.R.: Yeah, that sounds interesting. All right. 

David: So thanks for listening. We have a website. And we have a Facebook page. If you have any questions or thoughts, you just want to get in contact with us and bat some ideas around. It's all under Navigating an Ancient Faith. Of course, if you're listening to the podcast, you already know about the podcast, but we would also appreciate any kind of ratings, reviews. It would help get the word out. 

J.R.: Yeah, share this with your friends. 

David: All right, we will talk to you next episode.