Symbolism in the Psalms: Know Your Enemy

Uncover the deeper meaning of the Psalms. 🔍  Some of the Psalms were written in response to events recorded elsewhere in the Bible.  Reading the stories that are connected with these psalms can uncover hidden insights.  Often, the writer of the psalm is peering into the spiritual realm as they are reflecting on the events of the material world. 🔮 In this episode, we also explore how some of the early Church Fathers understood and applied the Psalms to their own lives.  Join us as we conclude this series exploring symbolism in the Psalms.📜✨

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Review
• 9:52 Psalm 57: Fleeing Saul into the Cave
• 20:26 Psalm 18: Defeating the Philistines
• 29:27 Psalm 3: Absalom's Betrayal
• 34:30 C.S. Lewis' Four Levels of Meaning
• 43:38 Who is the Enemy?
• 55:04 Final Thoughts

Transcript

Know Your Enemy

David: [00:00:00] You are listening to the Navigating an Ancient Faith podcast, and we are your co hosts. My name is David, and with me is J.R. Hey, how you doing? Good, good. How are you? 

J.R.: I'm doing good. Just got back from Philadelphia. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: So, yeah, I saw Independence Hall, all the, neat historical things. I've never been to Philly. Have you? 

David: I stopped by there... 

J.R.: Airports don't count. 

David: No, it was some trip. I remember seeing the Liberty Bell.

J.R.: Oh, okay. Yeah.

David: But it's such a vague notion. It's one of those, like, maybe I just dreamt that. But I'm pretty sure I saw the Liberty Bell.

J.R.: Yeah, you'd remember that, surely.

David: Yeah, yeah. I remember walking through a park area. Yeah, yeah. So it was some trip a long time ago, but yeah, we passed through Philadelphia, probably stayed there the night, saw the Liberty Bell, what, Independence Hall or something like that. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Neat town, neat town. So we watched National Treasure before we left. And yeah, kind of did the National Treasure tour. It was a lot of fun. 

David: Yeah, and you just went to see uh, [00:01:00] Jerry Seinfeld in concert, right?

J.R.: Yes, yes. How was it? Our, our favorites. I think you turned me on to Seinfeld, you know, 30 years ago.

David: How, how was it? Like, I've seen his stand up and, I've seen it on TV, but how was it in a big concert environment? 

J.R.: Very good. Yeah. He's still got it. He's still got it. He can still go on a riff about pop tarts and 

David: Just about nothing. Yeah. Show about nothing. Right. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. No, he still kills it. Yeah. It was great. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. We had a friend of ours gave us tickets and we enjoyed it. So I made a whole night of that. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a busy week or two, which is why I couldn't record. I think you, you've been bugging me, like, we do, we got to do another episode. 

David: I know. You've, been out of town. I've been out of town traveling next week, taking a retreat to the cabin, looking forward to that. So yeah, it's been a challenge to try and get this episode recorded. So, 

J.R.: Well, you know, well, I'll come up and join you at the cabin and we'll knock out a few episodes. 

David: We'll knock a series out. That's definitely the way to do it too. That's definitely the way to do it because trying to schedule a couple hours every other week with our [00:02:00] schedules is sometimes challenging. 

J.R.: Well, the problem is it mean you get together and talk for like an hour and a half and then we say, okay Do you want to start recording?

David: That's true. That could that tends to uh we talk for an hour or two before we even start hitting the record button. So ...

J.R.: Yeah, so we'll get we'll get better at it. Yeah All right final psalms. 

David: Yes, we are wrapping up this series, Symbolism in the Psalms, where we've been talking about different ways to read the psalms, the hidden symbolism in a lot of the psalms. And we've talked about things like the divine counsel, we've talked about ancient smack talk, we've talked about a number of these things, so, yeah, it's been a good series. I've enjoyed it, and we're gonna wrap it up tonight, so... 

J.R.: Alright, where are we going tonight? 

David: Yeah, so last episode we talked about the imagery of ascending the mountain and then descending to Sheol or the Underworld.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: And I did want to clarify one thing because it's one of those things where I was re listening to it, and I actually saw a [00:03:00] couple of references to this idea that I, and I don't want to confuse people, because I said that King David didn't have much of a conception of the idea of the afterlife, or heaven. And I do want to not overstate that, because there are psalms where King David and some of the other prophets actually talk about this belief that their soul, and actually their body, will stand before God one day.

I think it's true to say that it was this vague notion that was really clarified in the New Testament. Yeah. And so I stand by a lot of the stuff we talked about, you know, about descending to Sheol and what happens to my soul and all that. But I did want to just throw that out there because it's one of those little things that bother me. I'm like... Yeah, there are Psalms where David says, you know, but I trust that I will stand before you one day, 

J.R.: Well every time I listen to our podcast, I always think man, I should have said this.

David: Yeah. Yeah, I know. 

J.R.: So every time we listen to it, it's the stuff we want to add. So yeah, there you go. Yeah Yeah, add it in [00:04:00] there.

David: Well tonight we're gonna talk about Know Your Enemy, and this is going to be a little bit different one because we're not going to talk about some big allusion in the Psalms. We're talking more just about a general way that we can read the Psalms several different ways. Pick a psalm, any psalm. Here's different ways that people have read that psalm, you know, throughout the centuries. So tonight's episode we're going to talk about Know Your Enemy, and I gotta give a shout out to Green Day for letting me borrow that song title, Know Your Enemy.

J.R.: That's a, yeah, that's a good reach. I'm not too familiar, what, that's, no, I'm not, I'm not too familiar with that one. Okay, so, i, I'm vague, I, like, I just, I don't have the tune in my head, but ... 

David: Okay. Well, you, I think you'd recognize it, but it's the follow up album to American Idiot, and it's called 21st Century Breakdown.

J.R.: Okay, yeah. No, I stick with 90s Green Day, man. Love 90s Green Day. 

David: Alright. 

J.R.: I can't fault you for that. I guess I lost touch. 

David: Well, so, 21st Century Breakdown [00:05:00] was the attempt to kind of recreate that kind of rock opera American Idiot feel. Yeah, and they didn't quite pull it off, but it's still a good album. I like it.

J.R.: So yeah, there we go All right. I'll give it a listen.

David: But there's one more tie in too because we got a you know, go off on our rabbit trails before we actually start talking about this. So last episode we were talking about the songs of ascent, right? And we were talking about the idea of that was kind of their playlist and we of course reference several times our Greece Playlist.

J.R.: Yeah. We'll have to add Green Day.

David: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so the first time me and three good buddies of mine, we went to Israel and I think it was 2005. And this is funny because we rented a car and we, the cars back then had CD players, no one knows what those are anymore. Yeah. But they had CD players, so we're like, we need music to play during our trip. So we went to this first record store we found, it's funny because we each [00:06:00] grabbed a CD, right? And we said, we're gonna play these, we need some music to play. So one of the CDs that was grabbed was Green Day, American Idiot, and it had just come out. And I remember listening to that album, like nonstop on that trip. And it became the soundtrack to that trip. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. What a win.

David: Yeah, so when we were divvying it up, the CDs, I'm like, I'm taking this one home, you know, with me. And of course, I think they won an album of the year later on for that album, but. 

J.R.: Oh, no, that was a great album, man. 

David: Yeah, I don't even remember the other CDs. Although one I think was, this is a reach too, one I think was Cake. 

J.R.: Oh, Cake. Yeah. One hit wonder. Yeah. I don't even know what the hit was. I just, I, that little tune is bouncing in my head. 

David: No one fought over that one. I don't know who took that one home. All I know is I snagged Green Day because American Idiot became the playlist for that first trip to Egypt and Israel that you and I actually recreated some years later. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, you came out ahead on that one. 

David: Yeah, definitely. [00:07:00] Definitely.

J.R.: So, know your enemy.

David: Yeah, yeah. So, know the enemy. Here's how this ties into the psalms. So, there's a lot of psalms and doesn't take much reading to come across one, where King David, and most of these are King David, and we've talked about how other psalms were written by other people, but King David refers a lot to enemies that are chasing him, right?

J.R.: Right, literal enemies.

David: Yeah, literal enemies. And so there's several psalms that talk about, you know, my enemies are closing in on me. And for King David, that was meant quite literally, right? Sure. In fact, I did a word search on just enemy, and it's about a hundred times in the Psalms that the word enemy appears, and that's not even the wicked and, you know, other variations of that same idea.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: So a hundred times, yeah, quite often, David is complaining about enemies that are after him. And a little bit along the same line we talked about last week, [00:08:00] David talking about being cast into Sheol, you know. Well, one of the reasons is because, well, enemies are after him, right?

Right. So I want to talk a little bit today about what it meant for David. Because David was literally talking about enemies after him, and different ways that we can take that interpretation and actually apply it to us, because we'll get to this, but you know, most of us don't have people chasing us, hunting us down.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, well, there's been times in my life, but yeah.

David: But we'll not talk about those times. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, my old high school principal. I think he's still after me. Yeah, okay. There's a few guys out there. Yeah, yeah. I'm on a hit list somewhere, but no, yeah, you're right.

David: You may read these psalms different then. Yeah, that's right. You're like, he's still after me. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess that I'd start out with is, one interesting thing that I started to realize several years ago about the Psalms, especially about these Psalms where David's talking about his enemy, [00:09:00] is these Psalms are actually referring to specific incidences in David's life, and some of these incidences are actually talked about elsewhere in the Old Testament. So I think it's kind of interesting to read a Psalm and then understand that - and some of the psalms will even say, David wrote this when this happened. And then you can go back and read that event, and it kind of sheds a whole new light on that psalm, right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it gives you an idea of exactly what's going on. Yeah, yeah. That is not talking in general terms.

David: Yeah, he's not just, you know, woe is me, my enemies are after me, I had a bad day at work, anything like that. He's, these are literally people chasing David down and he's reflecting on it because he's a poet, because he's a musician, he's writing this stuff down, expressing his angst to God about enemies that are after him.

Okay. So let's look at the first example, let's look at Psalm 57 one through six [00:10:00] and I can read this. I have this one. If you want me to read it, you got it up. Alright, Psalm 57, and I'll just read the first couple of verses, but it does start out by saying "For the director of music to the tune of Do Not Destroy", which that sounds like a Green Day song too. 

J.R.: That's right, I, I, I, it was just looking at it. 

David: You were right there, yeah, I beat you to the punch. Right, yeah. And it says ...

J.R.: Yeah, that's an 80's metal shirt

David: Yeah, yeah, Do Not Destroy, that's got Green Day written all over it. 

J.R.: Do we know the tune of Do Not Destroy? 

David: I don't think we know that tune. 

J.R.: That's just lost to history, that's too bad. 

David: Yeah. But it may have won a Grammy that year.

J.R.: Yeah, I'm sure it did.

David: Alright, and then it says "Of David when he fled from Saul into a cave." Okay? So, we know this is referencing a very specific case. And again , this part is part of the Psalms. This wasn't added a thousand years later or anything like that. But the introduction to each psalm, some of these are in the original or the earliest documents we have. They're noted like this, and that's how we know that that's what it's referring [00:11:00] to.

J.R.: Yeah, these aren't just headings that were added on afterwards. 

David: Right, right. Okay. So Psalm 57:1 says, "Have mercy on me, my God, have mercy on me, for in you I take refuge. I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed. I cry out to you, God Most High, to God who vindicates me. He sends from heaven and He saves me, rebuking those who hotly pursue me. God sends forth His love and His faithfulness. I am in the midst of lions. I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts. Men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens, and let your glory be over all the earth."

So this one's talking in very general terms. The word enemy is not even in there, but clearly David is being pursued. Disaster has come upon him, and he says those who are pursuing me are like, very graphic language, very, you know, poetic language. This is really where we get the poetry [00:12:00]part of the Psalms You know, where he says I am in the midst of lions. Whose teeth are like spears and arrows. Yeah, so, you know.

J.R.: Yeah, they're closing in.

David: They're closing in the soldiers are closing in and I'm like a trap beast almost, you know.

J.R.: Right, right running out of places to run.

David: Yeah, yeah, so we can read this as okay David's, worried for his life. But when we realize that this is actually around a certain episode that takes place in the Bible, yeah, you know, it kind of takes on a new meaning and you kind of know the story too, don't you?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it said when he fled from Saul in the cave. 

David: Yeah, so 1 Samuel chapter 24 verses 1 through 3. Actually, do you have that up? 

J.R.: Yeah, I've got it right here. Verse 1 says that "After Saul returned from pursuing the Philistines, he was told, 'David is in the desert of En Gedi.' So Saul took 3,000 able young men from all of Israel and set out to look for David and his men near the crags of the wild goats. He [00:13:00] came to the sheep pens along the way. A cave was there, and Saul went to relieve himself. David and his men were far in the back of the cave. The men said, 'This is the day that the Lord spoke of when he said to you, I will give your enemy into your hands for you to deal with as you wish.' Then David crept up unnoticed and cut off a corner of Saul's robe."

David: Yeah, so pretty well known story if you grew up in church or... <Yeah, sure.> But I think it casts Psalm 57 in a different light when you understand that this is the story that that psalm is referring to. <Right.> And just as you were reading, you know, it talks about Saul comes in with 3,000 men. Well, it's like, no wonder David describes them as lions with, teeth of swords and spears.

J.R.: Yeah. He just sees a sea of spears out there. Yeah. Pursuing him up in the hills of En Gedi.

David: In, yeah. In the hills of En Gedi. And that's the other thing, you know, you and I messed around En Gedi one day.

J.R.: Love that place. 

David: Yeah, it was great. Just, yeah. And if you've haven't been [00:14:00] there En Gedi is off of the Dead Sea and rugged hills that are just full of caves. So . 

J.R.: Yeah, I was trying to think of how to describe it. It's kind of like, not as deep as the Grand Canyon, but it, but kind of like the walls of the Grand Canyon, except it's just Swiss cheese. It was incredible. We could, we climbed all through there and there were holes and like it says, in the crags of the rock, the crags of the wild goats. There's still goats there, by the way. I don't know if it's the same goats, but ...

David: Maybe the descendants. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. There's still goats there, interestingly enough.

David: And there were the other thing that was there are the Hyrax. 

J.R.: Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. They don't get a shout out in the Bible.

David: But. No, actually, you will find the name, the Hyrax, referred to in the Bible. I forget where. Yes, but it is in there.

J.R.: Well, not in this, not in this story.

David: Not in this story.

J.R.: That's pretty interesting. 

David: Which if you add, if you add to David hiding in a cave, the scream of the Hyrax, you know how terrifying that would be. 

J.R.: Oh, gosh, [00:15:00] yeah. Yeah, that's just a complete nightmare.

David: Because we heard that in Uganda, right? 

J.R.: In Uganda. It just sounds like, it sounds like women screaming out in the forest. <Yes.> In the jungle. I mean, it sounds exactly like that. And the first time I heard it, I was like, Oh my gosh, somebody, something's going on. <Someone's getting murdered.> No, no, it's just the hyrax. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's worth YouTubing if you want to hear it. 

David: So that's another layer of adventure here to David hiding in a cave and 3,000 men are after him and, you know, passes the goat pens. The Bible doesn't say it, but the hyrax were there and they're terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. They scream out. Yeah.

J.R.: But yeah, it's one of the, but En Gedi was one of those places that when you visit, this story makes sense when you go there, because I've read this story and I've thought, you know, how in the world did David, how is he hiding in the back of a cave and how did 3,000 men not notice him? You know, I mean. I don't know. It just never made a whole lot of sense. Yeah. And, and then how does David get the chance to cut off the [00:16:00] corner of his robe? And I've read that in the past and I've just thought, it's difficult to understand how David could have gotten past the guards or cut Saul's robe without knowing.

But then when we were there, we discovered really quickly, man, this is not, this isn't like a cave where you go in a big cave and, you know, a hundred feet back the cave stops. Right. This is like a series of tunnels all through these hills. Yeah. And you and I played around in there and at one point, I wiggled up through a few tunnels and before you know it, I'm a hundred feet above you and I'm hollering down at you and you're like, how in the world did you get there? You know.

David: Yeah, you, you can end up if you start following some of these tunnels, yeah, you can end up in a completely different place from where you entered into them. So you could totally see, first of all, having been there, you can totally see how if someone wanted to disappear in En Gedi, it would take 3,000 people to find them, probably. 

J.R.: Oh, yeah, yeah. If you knew those tunnels, you were as good as gone. 

David: Right, yeah. You just disappear, never to be found [00:17:00] again. Right. But then, yeah, you start to understand how, they're all searching for David, and Saul goes into a cave and, you know, relieves himself. And, yeah, somewhere in the back of the cave, David is kind of hiding out, and he can creep up close enough to cut a corner of Saul's garment off. And of course, the rest of the story goes that David's men are like, you know, Yes, we can finish the deal right here.

J.R.: Yeah, here's your chance.

David: Yeah, here's your chance. This is given to you on a platter . Go ahead and take it, David. End the whole thing. And of course David, you know, has enough integrity that he says, No, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna kill Saul. He's still the king. He may be trying to kill me, but, you know, that's for God to, you know.

J.R.: God's chosen. Sure.

David: Yeah, and far be it for me to kill God's chosen. So that's the well-known story of that. But yeah, so then we go back to Psalm 57, and this Psalm starts to take on a different meaning, different light, you know. David's still crying out, have mercy on me, God, have mercy, deliver [00:18:00] me from this, vindicate me. And so that's just kind of the first example. We don't have to go too much into this, you know, but... 

J.R.: Well, I do think it's interesting that David is - in this psalm - he's asking for God to have mercy on him, for help, basically help me out of this impossible situation. And then you read the story and you find out he had a way out.

David: It seems like it. He you know. Yeah. 

J.R.: But, because of his integrity and he had everybody chasing him and he had the integrity to know that it wasn't his place to take Saul's life. But it's still interesting that he was calling out to God for an answer, for help. Even though in some ways it's like the old joke I sent you a helicopter and two boats or do you know that joke? Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. It's sort of like that. It's like I was praying for a solution and here it is right in front of you and you didn't take it.

<Yeah.> And so that's the way it seems. But what he's doing is, he [00:19:00] recognized that there's a spiritual aspect to this whole thing that's playing out. And, and it wasn't his, it wasn't supposed to take Saul's life. But he's still calling to God to kind of what? 

David: Yeah, it's kind of like, I think what you're saying is it's, it's almost like David is saying, God deliver me from this situation, but not in a way that's going to compromise the hierarchy that you've set up.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, there you go. 

David: Maybe, yeah, maybe it's something along those lines, you know, not in a way where I'm going to have to like, regret my decisions, compromise my integrity. 

J.R.: Right. I realize there's a higher plane that this is happening on. Yeah. And, and I don't want to subvert that. 

David: Right. Yeah. No, that's interesting. Cause I didn't, I didn't even think of that aspect, but yeah, you read this psalm and you think, well, yeah, God delivered him right there. And it's not the first time, if you think about, you know, the life of David, where something obvious seemed to kind of fall in David's lap and [00:20:00] David didn't take it because for him, it would have been a compromise.

J.R.: Yeah, he clearly saw everything being played out on a different plane than what was right in front of him. What was right in the moment. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. So that's just one example of reading one of these Psalms, especially talking about David being pursued by his enemies and then reading the story and how the two can help shed light on each other. So let's take another example. Let's go to Psalm chapter 18.

J.R.: Okay, Psalm 18, again, that has this introduction, and in mine, the NIV, it's saying "He sang to the Lord the words of this song when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and the hand of Saul." So that's kind of the intro that we were talking about. Yeah, same thing. 

Verse one says, yeah, verse one says, "I love you, Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my deliverer. My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my [00:21:00] salvation, my stronghold. I called to the Lord who is worthy of praise, and I have been saved from my enemies. The cords of death entangled me, the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me, the cords of the grave coiled around me, and the snares of death confronted me."

David: Yeah, this is something very similar that we had covered previously. The whole image of the cords of death coiling around me and pulling him down.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: And again, we talked about how in that episode, how that was very much a reference to Sheol or the underworld. <Yeah, that's right.> Being pulled into the grave.

J.R.: Right, and so he goes on I'll pick it up in verse 16 Okay, says it says that "He reached down from on high and took hold of me. He drew me out of the deep waters. He rescued me from my powerful enemy, from my foes who were too strong for me. They confronted me in the day of my disaster, but the Lord was my support, and He brought me into a spacious place. He rescued me because He delighted in me."

David: That's a cool way to [00:22:00] finish that part of the psalms out.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right.

David: So this is, again, another psalm. It says it's a psalm where Saul was pursuing him. There's a lot of references to enemies in here. This one actually specifically mentions, you know, the word enemy. He rescued me from my powerful enemy, from the foes who were too strong for me. And there's a couple of other...

We talked about this last episode, too, where, you know, you start to see these different symbols that we've talked about previously in all these different psalms. And so just as you were reading verse 16, "He reached down from on high and took hold of me. He drew me out of the deep waters." You know, so the deep waters, there's, there's that symbolism again.

J.R.: Yeah, that imagery of chaos.

David: Of chaos, yeah. Right. Chaos, close to the underworld. You know, not a good place to be. <Yeah.> So, this one is interesting because this one is actually a reference to 2 Samuel 22, and [00:23:00] we won't read 2 Samuel 22, but I'll just go there real quick. So if you go to 2 Samuel chapter 22, one of the things you'll see is that the entire chapter is basically a repeat of the psalm we just read.

And so again, you know, I've even in my study Bible, it says, you know, see Psalm 18, part of that psalm we just read. We read a couple of verses of it, but it's a very long psalm. So Psalm 18 is actually just kind of dropped into 2 Samuel verse 22, as part of the narrative almost, which I think is kind of cool because, again, I'm not sure I really realized for a long time that some of these psalms are actually part of the story. It's not just referencing a story, it's part of the story. And this is an example of that. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's easy to look at the psalms as sort of like, well, these are just stories, kind of like we look at our music. You can get some interesting theology out of our praise and worship music today. But nobody really, [00:24:00] nobody really kind of digs through it for deep theological truths necessarily, you know, even though there's some of that in there.

So it's easy to look at the Psalms and say, well, these are just sort of their praise and this is how they pass the time. Yeah. Remembered how God saved them and things like that. But it is interesting to see that it's actually built into the story. That, that it's, that not only is it in the song book, the song is also in 2 Samuel and in other places. <Yeah, yeah.> Yeah, that's kind of interesting.

David: Yeah, I think you're right. It's very easy to read these as very nondescript, just, you know, journal entries.

J.R.: Yeah, general praise.

David: Songs, doodling lyrics down, but no, these, these all have a context to them. somewhere. We know we lost some of that context, but we're covering Psalms today that, you know, we know the context or we're pretty sure what the context is that gives a whole new meaning to this Psalm.

So if you back up one chapter to 2 Samuel chapter 21, so we talked about how [00:25:00] chapter 22 is basically Psalm 18 dropped into the story. So I'll just read a couple of verses to give a little bit of context. So starting in 21:15, it says "Once again there was a battle between the Philistines and Israel. David went down with his men to fight against the Philistines, and he became exhausted. And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed 300 shekels, and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David." So there's David's enemies again. "And then Abishai, son of Zeruiah," I'm not sure I'm pronouncing all these right.

J.R.: I was about to say, I'm glad you took these verses.

David: "Came to David's rescue, and he struck the Philistine down and killed him. And David's men swore to him, saying, 'Never again will you go out with us into battle, so that the lamp of Israel will not be extinguished.'" So basically, someone said, I'm going to kill David, and they go out to battle, but one of his men step up [00:26:00] and kill the enemy. But David was in danger and his men say, look, this can't happen again.

J.R.: Right, they saw the, yeah, they saw the seriousness of it. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. So then 18 says "In the course of time, there was another battle." So there's another battle with the Philistines. I'll skip some of these Well, so verse 19 continues "In another battle with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair, the Bethlehemite, killed the brother of Goliath, the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod." So there's the brother of Goliath. That's interesting too.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Is this where all kind of Goliath's brothers got finally wiped out? 

David: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. And so that's kind of this story, "Still in another battle," verse 20. So it's talking about all these conflicts they're having with the Philistines. <Right.> And so that becomes the context for Psalm 18, which, you know, again, I think it's really cool that that gives the context, then, for what we're reading in Psalm 18.

One of the main takeaways I [00:27:00] take from this, and it's something that we talked about, so we see these very tangible stories about how In a battle with the Philistines, this happened. And then, you know, David went out by himself, and his men said, this can't happen again. So they killed Goliath's brother. But if you read then, if you go back and read Psalm chapter 18, this is the psalm, remember, that talked about, you know, the cords of death are dragging me down, right?

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: And so I think it goes back to this idea, then, that David was kind of writing about and understood what was happening in the spiritual realm while these physical battles are taking place. Right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes back and he kind of sees, he ties together spiritually what's happening.

David: Yeah, it's more than just a battle that took place. And that's very much an ancient mindset. You know, a battle was never just a battle. A battle was a war between warring deities. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. There's [00:28:00] just this connection between the physical and the spiritual realm. Yeah. Yeah. That there's a corresponding spiritual counterpart going on.

David: Right. So on one hand in the physical realm, we read this story about how David went out by himself and this guy who was trying to kill him came close to killing him. And one of his men stepped up and killed him before that happened, right? <Right.> That's happening in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm, you know, David goes back to his tent, and it's almost like he has this insight, he has this, foresight to say, man, the cords of death were wrapping around me and I didn't even know it. Yeah, it was a close one. Right. Yeah, right. 

J.R.: And it's interesting because you know that ancient people saw an earthquake or they, they'd see a flood and you knew that they kind of said, oh, the gods must be upset with this or however they viewed that.

So you knew that they, that things that happen in the physical world, they associated to spiritual forces. But you don't really see it the other way around, where things that are happening in battle, that [00:29:00] there's a corresponding spiritual counterpart to that. <Yeah.> Does that make sense? You know what I'm saying? <Yeah, yeah.> It's like, if there's an earthquake, it's easy to say, oh man, this is, the gods are angry with us. Right. But you don't typically go the other direction with those analogies. And that's what David's doing. 

David: Yeah. We're in battle here, but there's spiritual forces also waging war.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's sure. 

David: All right. One more example, and then we'll start talking about how different people throughout history kind of talked about these Psalms. So. Psalm 3.

J.R.: Yeah, the introduction to Psalm 3 says "A Psalm of David when he fled from his son Absalom." So here we go again. Clearly a counterpart to what was going on in the, in, in his, in his life.

Verse one says, "Lord, how many are my foes? How many rise up against me? Many are saying of me, 'God will not deliver him.' But you, O Lord, are a [00:30:00] shield around me, my glory, the one who lifts my head. I call out to the Lord and he answers me from his holy mountain."

David: Yeah, so there's an image of the Holy Hill, right? The Holy Hill.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. We talked about that. 

David: So that's another one. We talked about that, that he calls out to the Lord and God answers him from his holy mountain, because that's where God would answer you from, right? That's where God resides. 

J.R.: Whether or not you're in proximity to it or not. Right. You know, we talked about that, the idea that the ancients wanted to be in proximity to that holy place. But here's a good example of, it doesn't matter where I'm at, right? He answers me from his holy mountain. 

David: Yeah, yeah. So, this is another one where, again, David talks about how many foes are after him, how many people are rising up against him. The introduction that you read talks about when he fled from his son Absalom, and if you know that story, that's quite a story.

But we can pick up a little bit of that story in 2 Samuel, chapter 15.[00:31:00] So the short story is that Absalom is David's son, and David is still the king, but Absalom begins to raise up basically his own army, right?

J.R.: Okay, to overthrow his dad.

David: Yeah, yeah. Right. And verse 10 talks about Absalom sent secret messengers throughout the tribe saying, "As soon as you hear the sound of the trumpets, then say, Absalom is king in Hebron." So, you know, he's saying, here's the signal, and you're going to make me king. Right. 200 men from Jerusalem had accompanied Absalom. They had been invited guests, and they went quite innocently, knowing nothing about the matter. But then it says in verse 13, "A messenger came and told David, the hearts of the people of Israel are with Absalom."

 So then David has to flee Jerusalem. And he's on the run from his own kingdom and from his own son.

J.R.: Right. The people have kind of turned against him.

David: Yeah. And so, the story plays out, a lot happens with his son Absalom, [00:32:00] but yeah, so Absalom disrespects his father David with David's own wives. Concubines, you know, in plain sight won't get into all those details. David raises an army to counteract Absalom's army, and they're on either side of the Jordan River. And you remember how this story ends, is that Absalom is riding his donkey and his hair gets caught, right?

J.R.: Yeah, loved this story.

David: Yeah. So David's army actually routes Absalom, Absalom's fleeing and his hair gets caught and he's found hanging in a tree. 

J.R.: Oh, well, it's such, what is it? Poetic justice. I don't know.

David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, do you remember how that story ended? I'm trying to think. 

J.R.: Well, obviously he got his hair stuck in the branches. Yeah. And I, I believe one of the servants of David found him and ran and told, Joab, I believe. And [00:33:00] Joab says, Well, why didn't you kill him? And the servant said, I wasn't going to kill the king's son. Are you crazy? And Joab goes back and throws what throws a spear into him and kills him. 

David: Okay. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I seem to remember. Yeah, that one guy had a chance and said, Yeah, I'm not going to do it. Kind of for the same reason we talked about earlier, you know.

J.R.: Right. Yeah. This isn't the, this, it's not my place. It's not my place. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently Joab said, no, it's my place. 

David: He got over that. Yeah.

J.R.: Yeah. He didn't have any issues with it.

David: So yeah. So then Absalom dies and of course David mourns his son, even after all that, and then goes and, and retakes the throne. But, so that's the whole story of David and Absalom. And so there again, it's very interesting then to go back and read Psalm 3 in the light of everything that just happened, right? So yeah, when David said, how many of my foes are rising up against me? I mean, he's talking about his own son taking the throne from him.

J.R.: Yeah. My own family. Yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. Is turning against me. 

David: So those are just a couple examples of interesting Psalms talking about the enemy, but very much referencing actual events in the life of David. And so it's one way to read the Psalms. When Psalms say, this is referring to this event, go back and read that event, and then go back and read the Psalm.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, clearly, clearly we're about talking about physical enemies that are chasing David. Right. Philistines, Absalom, these are all real people. Yeah. But you're saying that there's also another layer to this. 

David: Yeah, so there's different ways to read this, so that's kind of the actual event that we talked about. <Right.> So one of the things that helped me in reading the Psalms, where I began to read the Psalms different, is some of the early church fathers, some of the desert fathers, were referencing this way that they read the Psalms, and it kind of opened up all the different layers of how you could read something like the Psalms different ways. So I [00:35:00] bring up this whole issue again that we talked about at the outset of this episode.

You know, most of us don't have people hunting us down, trying to kill us. Right. Most of us, you know, after a day at work or something like that, we don't go read these Psalms about how many are my enemies and their teeth are like swords. Most of us, if we're honest, you know, can't relate to that.

J.R.: Yeah. Probably not. 

David: Yeah, hopefully not. But there are ways to read the Psalms that can start to get to these deeper layers of meaning that can actually start to apply to our life. One of the things, I'll get back to the Desert Fathers, but one of the things I just read recently is that C.S. Lewis actually mentioned four levels of meanings in the Bible. And so I wrote these down real quick, that he talked about the literal meaning, so that would be, you know, we're reading a psalm that's referring to an event in David's life, right? 

J.R.: The Philistines are actually chasing me.

David: Yes, the Philistines are [00:36:00] literally chasing him. <Right.> He talked about the typological, or I would say the symbolic, and we've talked about the symbolic all throughout this series. 

J.R.: Right, the connection between the physical and the spiritual realm. 

David: Yeah, exactly. That, you know, the mountain of God. The deep waters, all those things have more meaning, symbolic meaning than sometimes, well, most of the time, I would say that we today understand what it is.

J.R.: Yeah, our kind of simplistic reading of it. Right. 

David: And then C.S. Lewis said there's the moral level and there's the spiritual level. And those two are kind of, I would say, very similar, but we're going to talk about the spiritual level here in a minute. But, you know, the moral level would just be we today would say, what's the moral of that story? <Right.> Right. So we could go back to Psalm chapter 3 and say, "How many are my foes? How they rise up against me?" Actually, if you skip down to verse 5, I like this because David's talking about how he's being chased and pursued, but then verse 5 says, "I lie down and sleep, [00:37:00] I wake again because the Lord sustains me."

And so it's just that idea that, you know, even in the midst of this pursuit, I can go to sleep, and I can rest, and I wake up in the morning, and it's a gift from God, right?

J.R.: Right. Yeah, that's right. 

David: And that's something that we could say, that would be one of the morals of the story, right? That we could take away. 

J.R.: In the midst of your trials, know that God has a purpose for it, and, yeah, that God sustains us as well.

David: Yeah, yeah. Sure. And that, I've had times where, you know, I'm under a lot of stress, I'm maybe worried about a lot of things. But if I can just put those to the side just for the night and get a good night's sleep, you know, and I can wake up thankful to go, that was a gift from God, you know, just that night's rest.

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: So that would be an example of reading one of these psalms and saying, okay, here's the moral, right? Here's the moral of this story. <Right.> And again, we could go through each of these verses [00:38:00] and, you know, each of these verses could have kind of a moral to the story, so to speak. And so the last thing that C.S. Lewis talks about is the spiritual. One of the things that I think that the early Church Fathers really contribute is this idea of the spiritual meaning of how to read the Bible, but specifically of the Psalms. Actually, I was trying to find some examples of where I'd read it in this past week, and I couldn't find it, but I know I've read it. It's kind of a general thing that I've seen it referenced so many times, but then you're looking for a specific example.

J.R.: Yeah, you can't recall. 

David: Yeah, what book did I read, and, you know, can't find it. But, so I want to talk for a couple minutes about one of the things that The Desert Fathers talked about, which is this idea that the enemy can be equated to this idea of a spiritual enemy that is kind of tormenting us with thoughts.

And, in the Desert Fathers writings, there's this idea of what's, I've heard it referred to in [00:39:00]Greek as logismos, or logismoi. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but... Okay. But it's this idea of a thought form, right? And so a logismos might be an idea or a, or a thought, but it actually, in the way that they used it, it takes the shape of a thought that's implanted in you by a spiritual force. 

J.R.: Okay. Okay. Yeah, like the devil or the angel on your shoulder. 

David: Yeah, yeah. That would be a good example.

J.R.: Whispering in your ear. Yeah. 

David: How we would say that today. The devil's whispering in your ear. Right.

J.R.: So Bugs Bunny had it right. Yeah. Pretty theologically accurate.

David: Yeah. Maybe, maybe, bugs Bunny is more referencing the spiritual, the Desert Fathers than we realize.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right.

David: No, but I mean, I think everyone has experienced a time. I know I experienced this. I hope I'm not alone. But, you know, I mean, I can sit down to prayer sometimes. And, you know, just being honest, I'll have a terrible thought. <Yeah, yeah, yeah.> And have you ever done that? And [00:40:00] you find yourself thinking, where did that come from? 

J.R.: Where in the world did that come from? Right. And, and I've actually thought before, man, this is, this has got to be something spiritual going on because these thoughts don't pop in my head when I'm just going throughout my day. <Right.> Yeah, I have. I've, I have you know, bowed my head to pray, focus, meditate, and these, weird thoughts come in my head. Yes, I've had that happen many times. 

David: Right, exactly, yeah. And I have two, and I'm glad I'm not alone then, so thank you. 

J.R.: No, you're not crazy. 

David: No. So, yeah, so this is the larger idea, this, this could be a whole different episode, but this larger idea of some of the early fathers that talked about where our thoughts come from.

J.R.: Yeah, no, that, that's interesting, because I don't... I don't think about it very often, or we just, we just don't talk about where did that thought come from? Sometimes we do, but but yeah, that they took that seriously. 

David: They took that seriously. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, just briefly outlining it, we have thoughts for different reasons. We have thoughts. I can sit here and recollect, [00:41:00] you know, things I've done in the past, stupid things I've done in the past that can prompt thoughts. Right, right. If I'm watching a movie or a TV show, right, there can be a scene all of a sudden that's particularly violent, or maybe particularly racy, and that's gonna prompt certain thoughts and images in my head.

J.R.: Right. Yeah, sure.

David: You know, and so, I can be in a conversation with you, and you can bring something up, and that kind of fills my head with different thoughts, right? <Yeah.> And so, the fourth category, or another category that they would say is, consider the idea that there are spiritual forces that are suggesting thoughts to you. You know, and, and they would be very clear into saying, like, look, they can't harm you. You don't, if you're a believer, you don't have to worry that they're going to you know, what, take you over, or something like that. <Right.> But one of the things they can do is kind of whisper these thoughts to you and kind of prompt your thinking in a certain direction. And if [00:42:00] you're unaware of it, that's where you can, you know, find yourself suddenly thinking some kind of angry thought or prideful thought and just kind of running with it. And all of a sudden you've just derailed yourself, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. No, that's interesting. I mean cause I've experienced that myself and I've just never thought about it in that context. <Yeah.> And I think there's something to that though. 

David: Yeah. And I think you're right that it kind of in our modern rational worldview that we don't really give that much credence, but actually I've benefited from starting to give it credence, from starting to be aware of saying, Okay, where did that thought come from? And how do I put a stop to it, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, just our whole journey that we've been going on helps me realize there's definitely a spiritual realm that is actively engaging in spiritual warfare, you know, and no, that that's, that's becoming more and more real to [00:43:00] me as we read some of these passages in the Bible. And I'm starting to think on that level, and the more I think about it, the more this is not absurd at all. This is not mystical or, or ...

David: Right. It is. Well, the one thing I think we could say is it's not just something that, you know, ancients believed because they were superstitious and we know better now, right? Maybe they were onto something, right?

J.R.: Right. Yes, that's right.

David: Yeah. Maybe David knew more than we give him credit for by seeing the cords of death, dragging him down in the spiritual realm when he's fighting an actual battle, right?

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: So anyway, one of the things that these early Church Fathers, again, talk about is that you can read the Psalms and when you encounter Psalms that start talking about the enemy, I may not be pursued by someone physically trying to kill me. But I am being pursued by these spirits who want to derail my thoughts, right? <Right.> And so that's [00:44:00] kind of where this all ties together, is I've benefited from this idea that we can read the enemy in the Psalms as the spiritual enemy that are trying to derail us and mainly through these, you know, they would say these logismoi, these, these suggestive thoughts, which I think is really interesting idea.

J.R.: Well, you've heard it kind of in shallow terms, you know, the devil made me do this. And, and we're not talking about a cop out, you know, of, I did this, I guess the devil, you know, made me do this awful thing. <Yeah.> But it is true that, there is something that there is something about our thoughts that we don't control ourselves. We think all the times, you know, we'll, we'll think how many times have you had a thought and you, almost like physically hit your head saying, stop thinking that. You know, get out of there. What do you, you know, and it's almost like this recognition, this implication that there's something outside of myself that's [00:45:00] controlling that. And so we all experienced that. And I just think the ancients gave spiritual voice to that. 

David: Yeah. I think they recognize it much better.

J.R.: Right. Yeah. I think so.

David: Yeah. So then if you take that idea then back to Psalm 3, and we'll just use this as an example . So Psalm 3 verse 1, again, I'll, I won't read the whole thing, but skip through Lord, how many are my foes? How many rise up against me? Many are saying of me, 'God will not deliver him.'" Well, okay. So we know the actual event that was taking place there, right? But then if you read it in terms of, you know, how many are my foes? How many are rising up against me? Like, how many of these oppressive thoughts do I have?

J.R.: Yeah, how many of those voices are in my head?

David: How many of these voices are coming - and even the next verse that says, many are saying, you know, about me, God will not deliver him. How many voices, how many times does that voice say, you know, God's not going to deliver you?

J.R.: Yeah, what are you thinking?

David: Yeah, why are you, why are you sitting down to pray? God's [00:46:00] not listening to you. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, you really think he's up there? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. 

David: So then it goes on, "But you are a shield around me, my glory, the one who lifts my head." And then, again, "I call out to the Lord and he answers me from his holy mountain." Again, in that light, I think that takes on a different type of symbolism too, right? 

J.R.: Right. So when I get confirmation from time to time, you get that, whether it's a feeling, whether it's a thought you get that confirmation that yeah, God is listening. God heard my prayer. Yeah. That he is out there and that those voices that are saying, come on, really? <Yeah.> You know, you're going to pray to God about your job? You know, there's what, yeah, three billion people on the planet and you think he's going to, he's worried about whether you get that promotion or whether this guy at work is annoying you or something like that, right? <Right.> And yeah, and, and those voices are always in our head, but then every once in a while you get that confirmation that affirmation that, no, God does hear me, that God does [00:47:00] supply my needs.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You do, you do read it differently. I like that. 

David: Yeah, a couple more verses just because I think they're, they're cool and they really drive the point home. "I will not fear though tens of thousands assail me at every side." And sometimes it does feel like tens of thousands of voices are assailing me. And then it says, "Arise Lord, deliver me, my God. Strike my enemies on the jaw." I like that too. "Break the teeth of the wicked." You know, God, strike these people down. And that's another thing that I think the Ancients and the early church fathers were not afraid to say, God, I'm being assailed by this spirit right now. God, lay the smack down, right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

David: Break, break his jaw. Tell him to leave me alone, basically, you know. And they believed that God would answer that prayer. God would answer him from his holy hill, right? So, this, this Psalm 3, I think, is a cool example of how it takes on an [00:48:00] entirely different meaning from the actual story that's going on, once we understand some of the teachings of the early church fathers and the wisdom of some of these early monastics of, you know, hey, what if the enemy is these spiritual beings wanting so badly to derail your thoughts and distract you and discourage you and derail you, right?

J.R.: Right. Yeah, I definitely like reading that through that spiritual lens. You know, because I think we, I think we naturally try to pull the moral of the story out. We obviously, if you're a history buff, you want to get the actual context, the physical context of what was going on when he'd written this.

But, you're right, I think we, man, there's so much of the Bible that we read and we don't see the spiritual, we don't look at it through that spiritual lens. Yeah. But yeah, but along even with, along that spiritual lens that were trying to read it, there's also kind of just a practical, you know, I get in my own way a [00:49:00] lot. I, my own mind is deceptive, you know. And the Bible talks about how deceptive our hearts are. And that's what they're talking about, that we can fool ourselves so many times. Yeah, where Paul says, you know, that I have the desire to do good, but I just can't carry it out and I keep doing the evil that I don't want to do, right? <Yeah.> I think that's, I think that's, it's in Romans. But yeah, that, that I want to do something.

There's also this battle going on, it's easy to point to these little spiritual demons that are whispering in our ear. But also there's this battle going on inside our own heart that Paul's talking about, or it's inside our own mind. And so there's a spiritual battle going on, but there's also an enemy within myself. There's a battle going on within my own heart that, I need God's help to pull me through. 

David: Yeah. The, the cliche, sometimes I can be my own worst enemy <sure> holds true. And I, but I think actually that's a good point because I think what you're pointing out is, so we've talked about [00:50:00] how, yeah, there are spiritual forces kind of at play and we talk about the devil made me do it. But the opposite of that is, sometimes, a lot of times, maybe that, you know, look, I just need to own it, right? <Right.> There doesn't need to be any spiritual force prompting me to make bad decisions. <Right.> I'm perfectly capable of myself. But sometimes I think we use one or the other almost too much as a crutch. Like we all know people or I've known people who you know, nothing was ever their fault It was always the devil, right? <Yeah> Is, evil's after me right enough and I'm <sure> you look at some of the decisions they make, and you're like, uh yeah, that's I don't think the devil really had to force you to do that, right?

J.R.: Right, right Well, I think it's just a deflection that it keeps you from having to look in the mirror. <Yeah Yeah.> We do this, you know, I'm thinking of the current political and social climate. You know, there's a tendency to dehumanize people that we [00:51:00] disagree with so that we don't have to take their opinion seriously. Right? And as soon as you dehumanize somebody, whether it's looking at my situation and dehumanizing it by saying, the devil made me do it, or looking at you and dehumanizing you. And therefore being able to dismiss our differing opinions. You know, there's just something in, in me, part of the battle that goes on in my heart is my tendency and temptation to simply dehumanize people I disagree with. <Yeah.> And, I mean, that's, that's sort of, I mean, golly, you see that everywhere today.

David: Well, and, and perhaps today we are too quick to label others as the enemy. <Right.> And you know, maybe that's too strong. Like, hey, maybe that person's not your enemy. Maybe they just disagree with you. 

J.R.: Right. Right. Yeah. But again, you know, as soon as we dehumanize somebody, as soon as we slap a label on them, then that that's [00:52:00] permission that it's implicit permission, why I don't have to listen to their <Yeah, that's true.> yeah, to, how they disagree with me.

David: Right. , if I label them the enemy, they're out to get me. Why should I listen to anything they have to say? When actually maybe I could learn something <right> from listening to another opinion, yeah. And that's very much the, the atmosphere today. 

J.R.: The Carl Jung quote "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." Yeah. I love that because it's true. Anything that gets under your skin is a chance for you to say, well, what is it about that? Why can't I forgive that person? Or why, why does it bother me that bad? It's an opportunity for you to look in the mirror. And, and listen, you know, it's, it's, Jung isn't saying that everything's your fault, but you're the only one that you can change. You're the only one that you can get to the bottom of. And so it does give you a chance to kind of, you know, always look in the mirror and say, What is it about this person? Or what is it [00:53:00] about this situation that irritates me? How come that bothers me so much? And it can lead us to an understanding about ourselves. 

David: No, I think that's a great question. Why does this thing bother me so much, you know, and that may say more about me than it does about the situation. But, but yeah, that's interesting. That's an interesting question. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, it works out well. 

David: Well, we're bringing up all these, I think I'll come back to this word that you like, you know, we're bringing up the tensions here, right? <Right.> So, there are very real enemies out there. Don't be naive. They're out there. But we can also be quick to vilify people. Sometimes the enemy is within me. Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy, right? And so there's you know all these realities that we have to kind of wrestle with. And that's the perspective that we can bring to these psalms, that you know as we read through and we read all the times David talks about his enemy. Well is Is this one about me? Is this one [00:54:00] about maybe I really am being oppressed? Maybe I'm vilifying others when I shouldn't, you know? Maybe I'm calling people the enemy when, like you were saying, I'm just dehumanizing them instead of listening to them. I think all that's wrapped up in kind of this spiritual interpretation of the Psalms that we've been talking about.

J.R.: Right. Well, just like C.S. Lewis's advice of, look, read the psalm and read it in those four different ways, like that's worth writing down, specifically in psalms. You could probably do this throughout the Bible, obviously, but specifically in the psalms, read it in the historical context, read it in the moral context, read it in the spiritual context, and you'll get something out of it. You know, so many different ways. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. You can read it four different times and get four different things out of it. 

J.R.: Yeah. So if the Bible is boring to you in any way, yeah, tackle it this way. It's like peeling the layers back of the onion. You're going to find so many [00:55:00] different ways that you're going to be able to read this, you know?

David: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that kind of wraps up the whole series. I think it was a good way to end it because we've been talking about really specific symbols. But, you know, when you step back and understand. And there's a lot of layers here. And again, I think we've said this before, but we could have done 10 more episodes <oh, sure> of different symbols and different ways to read the Psalms.

J.R.: Yeah, and the encouragement to the listeners is now go find those 10 more, those hundred more. Yeah, go in the Psalms and find them. You'll see it so many times. Yeah, once you see it, you can't unsee it and you'll see a hundred different examples of it. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. Well, any last thoughts?

J.R.: Well, I'm starting through this whole series. I'm starting to kind of understand the ancient mindset and seeing sin and seeing, seeing the spiritual side to things. [00:56:00] You know seeing, you know, seeing sin as sort of this alignment with, dark spiritual forces. As opposed to just, well, I shouldn't have done that, you know. And it sounds a little sci fi, but the more you understand about the Old Testament and tie a few ideas together, the more you can see that that's exactly what the writers of the Old and the New Testament believed and understood: that there's a spiritual corresponding battle going on, that corresponds with your physical reality.

And the more I think about it in those lines, the more I think, man, I think they're exactly right. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think it's this mystical sci fi idea. I think that's exactly what's happening. 

David: Yeah, I, I think I have also been prompted to, it's one of the themes that jumped out at me, is maybe I should be asking more, you know, if something's bothering me, if something's happening in the physical realm, whether it's work or relational or, you know, to ask, Alright, what's going on in the spiritual realm right now?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's [00:57:00] exactly, yeah, that's right. 

David: And even saying that, I think sometimes that may feel a little weird. 

J.R.: Well, our rational scientific brains, like, what are you doing there, you know? 

David: But, but, as we've been looking at through this whole series, man, you know, the writers of the Bible, they believed, that was their worldview, they believed that. And they, they wrote about it with much more confidence about, this is what's happening in the spiritual realm right now, than I would ever have, you know. I can take some guesses and I think it probably takes practice to really understand Okay, maybe this is what's happening to me spiritually right now. <Yeah.> Through through this event, right? But yeah, I want to explore that more in my own journey. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I agree I think that's I think that's exactly what we can all get out of this. 

David: Yeah. Well, we'd love to hear any of your thoughts if you have thoughts, things that you're taking away from this series, we'd love to hear about them. You can leave them on our Facebook group, Navigating an Ancient Faith, or our website. You can contact us, we'd [00:58:00] love to hear some feedback. 

J.R.: Alright, so what's the next series? What's the next episode? Where are we headed? 

David: Well, we're going to actually finish out the year. It sounds weird to say that, but that's kind of the schedule.

J.R.: I know, isn't that crazy? 

David: But we've been talking about this series called Stranger Things. That there's a lot going on with things like AI, aliens were in the news for a while. <Yep. Yep. Yep.> Yeah. So I know you're you're looking forward to talking about it.

J.R.: This is all right up my alley. , I love the show, but I love the, I love the topics. AI. Yeah, there, there are, there's a lot of things going on that at least get you to think about it through a biblical lens. How to biblically, how do you tie in with AI, artificial intelligence? How do you tie in with the story of aliens? <Yeah.> So yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun. 

David: Yeah. And that's how we're going to tackle this is we're going to talk about, as Christians, how should we be thinking about this and even bringing back some of the symbolism and, what does this really mean? Because there's a lot of different ideas, crazy ideas, you know, a lot of noise, [00:59:00] yeah, a lot of noise out.

That's a good way to put it. There's a lot of noise out there around these subjects. So that should be fun. It'll be a three part series. We're going to talk about some of these things that are popping up in the news that are scary, if you don't understand them, maybe, maybe they are scary? Maybe they shouldn't be scary to us, but we'll talk about all that.

J.R.: Yeah, all right, sounds good. I'll I'll meet you up at the cabin. What do you say? 

David: That sounds good. All right, great. We'll talk to y'all next episode. Thanks for listening.

J.R.: All right, we'll see you.