Stranger Things: Apocalypse Now

Many today live in constant fear that our planet is on the brink of total destruction.  🌎Media and politics amplify this anxiety, but what does the Bible say?  Does it foretell Earth's destruction even as the faithful are taken to heaven? 🚀In our final dive into "Stranger Things," we confront the apocalyptic fear of our planet's impending doom. Explore the parallels between Noah's Flood and the apocalyptic visions of Revelation, unraveling the deeper truths about the end of the world.  📜 Join us as we seek solace in ancient insights that may just ease our contemporary anxieties.🔍

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The Doomsday Clock website: Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

A More Optimistic website: Human Progress

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:22 Apocalyptic Fears
• 9:24 The Doomsday Clock
• 15:45 The Covenant With Noah
• 23:15 The New Heaven and New Earth
• 35:12 The Return of Christ
• 41:58 Fear Not

Transcript

Apocalypse Now

David: [00:00:00] You are listening to the Navigating an Ancient Faith Podcast. My name is David and with me is JR. Hey, how about that hike we had today? 

J.R.: Oh, dude. Felt so good. It was beautiful, but my feet are killing me. I stood up a second ago and... , just walking around the cabin. Feet are hurting. My hips are hurting. <Yeah.> I'm too old for this, man. I can't, I can't do this. We're not hitting the Appalachian trail like we had planned. 

David: No, no. A couple hour hike. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, my watch said six miles. That's okay. That's legit. And it was not, you know, it's not road miles. This is up and down. This is pretty aggressive. <Yeah.> But yes, it was fun. Saw some neat waterfalls. Beautiful out here. 

David: Beautiful rock formations and water chute almost really high. And then we'll have to go back there because we found that whole ropes course about how to actually shimmy down.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Campsite. <Yeah. Yeah.> All right. So next year we're doing hot dogs. We'll do a, we'll do an episode from the top of the waterfall.

David: [00:01:00] That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So obviously we're coming to you from North Carolina. That's why we're doing some hiking. We've been knocking out this whole series on Stranger Things while we're here, which has been fun. Do a little recording, do a little hiking. <Yeah.> Got a good dinner tonight. 

J.R.: Oh yeah, that's right.

David: What is it, Prime Rib? Prime Rib special down at the Lakeside Lodge. Yep, there we go. Yep, so we're doing alright here. We're hanging in there. For any of you worried about us. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: But back to, this should be the last one. And I'll tell you what. You know what else this episode marks? 

J.R.: What? 

David: The end of season one. 

J.R.: Oh, that's right. Yep. Season one, in the rear view. How many episodes does that put us at?

David: 20 episodes.

J.R.: 20 episodes, okay, that's about that's about right. <Yeah. Yeah.> Yeah. All right So you start sketching out penciling out next season.

David: Oh, I got a lot of ideas in my head.

J.R.: Yeah Yeah, we'll pick it up.

David: Yeah, so that is kind of a fun milestone to reach. Yeah, actually I was reading some numbers about how most podcasts don't ever make it to a second season.

J.R.: Okay, it doesn't matter if anyone listens or not. We will do a second season. 

David: [00:02:00] Yeah, just we've just to spite that stat.

J.R.: That's right 

David: No, so that's kind of a fun thing. So this is how we're going to end our season for those of you who are listening along pretty much live or something like that. <Yeah.> we are going to also wrap up the series on Stranger Things where we've been talking about some of the weird, strange, things happening in our world.

J.R.: Yeah, right. Yeah, that's right. Speaking of the end, right?

David: Yes. Speaking of the end times. Yeah. Apocalyptic. Yeah. So we've kind of talked about this one as Apocalypse Now, which is the old movie, but yeah, you know, that whole apocalyptic fear. So we've talked about AI, we've talked about aliens, UFOs, And today, if you haven't picked up, we're going to talk about this whole apocalyptic fear that we tend to be living with in our modern society. 

J.R.: yeah. Well, unlike AI, and probably a little unlike aliens, apocalyptic fear has always kind of been around. <Yes.> It's not anything new, but at the same time, you and I were talking, you and I grew up in the Cold War. [00:03:00] Movies, you know, War Games that talked about a nuclear holocaust where everybody gets wiped out, you know. <Yeah.> And so we had our own, apocalypse kind of going on. But at the same time, I don't really ever remember worrying about it.

I don't remember sweating it. I don't remember much you know, like I said, it was in the movies every once in a while, but I, I just don't remember worrying about it. And I don't know, it just seems like there's a little bit higher fear right now. 

David: Right. Yeah. And that's one reason we're going to talk about this, is because a lot of the numbers, a lot of the stats will tell you that, especially the younger generation, live in a lot of fear that the world is about to end, <Yeah.> for a variety of reasons. And so, what we're going to talk about today to wrap up this series, and this season I guess, is... How should Christians respond to this? Should we jump right in with all the fear? After all, does the Bible not talk about the destruction of the end of the world? 

J.R.: Sure, right.

David: Armageddon? <Yeah.> You said that, do you want to sing that Def Leppard song? 

J.R.: Armageddon It, yeah. I don't know.

David: Are we [00:04:00] getting it? 

J.R.: Are we getting it? Yeah, that's right. We may be getting it, man. I don't know. So there are some scary things going on out there. <Yeah.> The nuclear threat has not gone away. environmental disaster. <Yeah.> What was, I think we've passed it already. What was the date that we were going to be beyond the ability to reverse global warming?

David: 2012, the world was going to end.

J.R.: Well, 2012, yeah. 

David: Based on the Mayan calendar. 2020, we were going to be beyond hope environmentally. And of course you, I'm sure if you pull news articles out there, there have been all kinds of predictions of the end of the world.

J.R.: Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. There's something out there that says the world's ending next week. <Yeah.> Yeah. 

David: So as Christians, we've have always introduced this subject last couple of episodes as we tend to go to one or two extremes, right? <Right.> So we tend to compartmentalize things which says, look, the Bible doesn't have anything to say on this topic. So, you know, yeah, I should worry about nuclear war, I should worry about the environment, I should worry about all this [00:05:00] stuff, because these are modern problems that the Bible doesn't have anything to say about.

<Right.> Right? And then we go to the other side, we swing to the other way we read in the Bible this divine pronouncement that this can't be true, there's no way this can be true, because the Bible... doesn't affirm it. <Right.> It would go against the teachings of the Bible. It would go against the teaching of the church. So ...

J.R.: So yeah, we do kind of go from one extreme to the other. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. And that seems to, I think that tends to be a typical reaction of religious people. Is we swing one way or the other, right? Which is why we need a forum like this to discuss these things. 

J.R.: Yeah, talk it out. Yeah. One of the things we always talk about is this living in the tension between two ideas. You know, I think the Bible talks about that. I think, I think it's Christians, we should kind of not run from one extreme to the other. There's this great C. S. Lewis quote where he says that the devil sends us problems in pairs because he uses our extra dislike for one extreme to draw us to the other extreme.

 So yeah, we're not going to run to one extreme or the other. We're going to try [00:06:00] to have a little bit of a nuanced conversation about this. And it's not that there's nothing to worry about, that everything's going to be sunshine and roses. <Right, Yeah.> But at the same time, maybe the end of the world isn't near like the cardboard sign - the guy on the corner of the intersection.

David: The end is near - that used to be a thing too.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That was ...

David: Probably in the 70s, right? Or 70s, early 80s, there was always the guy with the cardboard signs at said the end is near. 

J.R.: 20 or 30 years of that and people stopped taking him seriously. It's all I can figure.

David: It's not that near .This guy's been doing that for 30 years now. Right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

David: No. So we're talking about some of these issues we've already brought up. And we're really not going to get into these issues, honestly, and try and take sides or anything.

J.R.: Yeah, not individually.

David: Yeah. So we are not at least I don't really care to get into taking positions on some of these issues. But we talk about environmental disaster, right? Boy, that one's in the news every week. 

J.R.: Oh, yeah, sure. So what we're, putting in the atmosphere, global warming, climate change, overfishing. There's more than... [00:07:00] just global warming when it comes to climate disaster, right? There's lots of things, right? You know the hurricanes that are popping up. The you know, you might even put in meteor hits, comets, you know. Every once in a while I'll hear about some kind of meteor that's coming close to Earth. And, you know, kind of, we're lumping all that into natural disasters. 

David: Right, yeah. No, I had a guy who I used to work with who, we got into this conversation and he was trying to say, statistically, it is only a matter of time before an asteroid hits us.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, listen, I've heard since I was a kid, the big one's going to hit California, it's going to fall off into the sea. And I'm not saying that's never going to happen. But at the same time I don't see how changing your life completely, you know, in order to avoid the big one in San Francisco. You know, if it happens, it happens, but there's no indication it's going to happen anytime soon. It's just kind of these long statistical averages that every what? 100 years, 1,000 years, this happens. You know, [00:08:00] and, who knows if it's going to happen anytime soon or if it's going to be another 100 or 150 years. We'll be long gone. So, yeah, there's just always something to worry about. And I think people like to use numbers and statistics to kind of put a little fear, really, probably clickbait, probably some headline fodder and try to get the idea out there and get people scared, you know.

David: Yeah, and there's no end of talk, too, of nuclear war, who has nuclear weapons, who doesn't, who shouldn't have them? What happens if some crazy dictator uses one. So there's that talk too. Remember a couple of years ago, there was the whole zombie apocalypse? And I could never tell if that was like, I felt like some of that was kind of half serious.

J.R.: No, I think it was some of it. I mean, you know, I think what happened was the genre of the zombie probably started with The Walking Dead or something like that. then it would take a scientist saying, Hey, listen, you know, there are variations of rabies that can get in, jump from humans, you know, jump from animal to human. And I mean, yeah, I heard all kinds of - they were kind of fun. You know, [00:09:00] like I said, I like all this sci fi stuff. But I didn't take it too seriously, but you know.

David: No, I think it started out as one of those kind of jokes, people having fun with it. Then I felt like people started to take it more and more seriously. And I was, then I'm thinking, Oh, wow, we're still talking about this zombie apocalypse. 

J.R.: Yeah. There's the guy in the room that says, no, man, that really could happen. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's a real possibility. Yeah. Well, all this is captured in an interesting website, and we hear about this in the news, too, every year, because there is something called the Doomsday Clock.

J.R.: Yes, I've seen that. 

David: Yeah, and every year they kind of update their clock, and then every year all the news outlets run stories about how we are closer to complete and utter destruction than we have ever been before. <Right, yeah.> So, I pulled up this website, it's kind of fun. I guess I act like I don't take it seriously. Well, to be honest, I don't. But it's from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, and they keep this website called the Doomsday Clock. [00:10:00] And the whole idea of the Doomsday Clock is they treat the time that the world's going to end as a clock face and they tell you how close we are.

J.R.: Right? How close to midnight? Yeah, midnight is times up. Is that right? 

David: Yes. Midnight is the world no longer exists. <Okay.> And they will not be running any more articles.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. That's not dramatic or anything.

David: Yeah. So if you read their 2023 statement here's the headline: "We are in a time of unprecedented danger, and we are 90 seconds to midnight."

J.R.: 90 seconds? Wow.

David: 90 seconds, yes.

J.R.: I don't have another hour? Yeah. Yeah. 90 seconds. 

David: And so then it talks about nuclear risks. We talked about that. Climate change. <Sure.> Talked about that. Biological threats. So we did not talk about that. 

J.R.: Oh yeah. So we just came through COVID and, and ...

David: COVID, the world almost ended. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. So depending on who you talk to, it was, listen, it was a real thing. It caused chaos and uproar. But at the same time, we came through it and, and we're now, now it's just, we call it the flu, I [00:11:00] guess, you know. I had it a couple weeks ago.

David: And the fourth one is disruptive technologies, and I think that gets maybe back to our AI episode. 

J.R.: Okay, sure. So, the robot's taking over. 

David: They see an existential crisis in AI, I guess. And they talk about drones. Yeah, I'd have to read more about their disruptive technologies that are going to end the world. So what's interesting about this is I was looking back through their website and, you know, 2023 they say it's 90 seconds to midnight. 2020, it's was 100 seconds. 2017, it was two and a half minutes. If you go back to 2012, it was five minutes to midnight. 

J.R.: Well, 2012 was the Mayan calendar. How was that five minutes? 

David: Yeah. How was that not one second to midnight? 

J.R.: Yeah, I think, I think they kind of redid that. 

David: So it's interesting to look at this website and note that in their minds, things are getting worse and worse and worse, right?

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: And I'd have to go back and look. There's a little button for see all past time clocks, but I don't really feel like doing that. But the point is that according to this [00:12:00] doomsday clock we are inching closer and closer and closer to annihilation. That I think kind of captures the spirit of our time, of everything we've just talked about.

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to say, you talk to an average person on the street and say, are things better or worse? And I think most people are going to say it's worse.

David: Yeah, I think that's right. 

J.R.: Yeah, bigger risk of crime, bigger risk of, now I don't know what they would say about the world. But yeah, there's just a general tension that things are worse now than they've ever been. And in some ways they might be, but in other ways, there's all kinds of statistics run on violent crimes, on kidnappings, on murders on longevity , and all of those have been going down. You know, violent crime kind of peaked in the eighties and we were around during that. And then they've been dropping steadily, you know, year after year despite what you see on the news channels. And I think a lot of this is a overflow too much information, you know?

David: Yeah, you were saying that earlier. 

J.R.: Yeah. If somebody gets kidnapped across the [00:13:00] country 30 years ago, I mean, our local papers aren't going to pick it up. <Right.> I mean, if it's high profile, it might make the news, things like that, but they just didn't have the time in the one hour time slot of the evening news to report every child that gets abducted or something like that. <Right.> 

And so now it does. I mean, you've got Amber Alerts and you've got, you've got all these kinds of things that let you know, Hey, somebody's been abducted. It may not be anywhere near you, but it's happened. And so since that is in the forefront, the assumption is, man, kidnappings are going up. I've got to keep my kid inside. I can't let him go to the park, <Yeah> and all that again, it's all gone down. It's gone down. And I mean, we used to walk to school. We used to go out play in the woods until, until all hours of the night, I mean, we kind of had free reign. I'm not saying that's the way to do it, but I'm saying that there certainly wasn't a fear that, oh my gosh, if my kids get out of my sight, somebody might take them. <Right.> You know, and just everybody kind of lived that way. [00:14:00] <Yeah.> Um, but yeah, all those have been going down, so. 

David: Yeah, and there's another interesting website called Human Progress. I don't know if you've ever looked at it. Yeah, I'm not sure. So it doesn't tend to make the news like the Doomsday Clock, but ...

J.R.: The opposite of the Doomsday Clock, yeah.

David: Yeah, it's an interesting website that has run stories, you know, every day about actually how well things are progressing, how the world is a safer world.

J.R.: Wow. Ok, that's refreshing.

David: How we eliminated lot of droughts. We've eliminated a lot of hunger, starvation, all of those numbers, which I think is kind of an interesting parallel to what we see in the news all the time. <Right. Yeah.> And I guess to wrap up, I think we've talked enough about some of these issues. We're said, we're not really taking sides on any one of these issues, but to kind of wrap this discussion up of what I think is pretty obvious to most people is that we live in a world that bombards us with messages about how everything is about to come to an end. 

J.R.: Right. While at the same time, we are more technologically advanced. [00:15:00] <Right.> Probably safer than maybe any time in history. And that there's really probably no better time to be alive - safer, less poverty, less hunger, all those, all those things.

David: Yeah, life expectancy. 

J.R.: Yeah, we still have issues, but it seems like a pretty good time. But not if you look at the newspapers, right? 

David: Right, and we'll make this one disclaimer again. We're not saying some of these issues aren't real. We're not saying there isn't a threat, that crazy people have bombs. We're not saying that... there may be some legitimacy to overfishing oceans and some other environmental issues.

J.R.: Yeah, absolutely. 

David: But the messages we're bombarded with are very one sided. And , what we're saying has caused an unreasonable amount of fear. <Right.> And I guess that brings us to the question is, as Christians should we carry that fear around with us? And does the Bible have anything to say on this issue? 

J.R.: Well, I mean, listen, you know, the earth has been destroyed once, right? We've already had one apocalypse. What's to say it's not [00:16:00] going to happen again? 

David: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the stories that can, I think, shed some information on this is the story of Noah, right? <Sure.> The earth has already been destroyed once. <Yeah.> Everything wiped out except Noah and his family. Yeah. on the earth. But, It's interesting because I was going back and looking at this story, and I think there's some misconceptions, and then I want to talk a little bit about what the flood actually meant. But, we'll start out by looking at Genesis chapter 9. So Genesis chapter 9, and I'll start reading in verse 11. "I will establish my covenant with you. Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood. Never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, 'this is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you. Every living creature with you a covenant for all generations to come."" <Okay.> "I have set my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth." So that's the covenant that God makes with Noah: never again will I [00:17:00] flood the earth.

J.R.: Right, he doesn't say anything about Covid, global warming. 

David: You already found the loophole there. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so I'm not worried about floods. But everything else I can be worried about, right? 

David: So, yeah. So the question is, you know, well, didn't God say that he's never going to flood the earth again? <Right.> Doesn't that leave a loophole for something else? 

J.R.: Sure. He can burn it down. 

David: Yeah. So, and I think it helps to go back and have an understanding then of what the flood is actually about. <Right.> Right? We can see the flood, and we won't go through this entire, it's a couple chapters long. But when you look at the flood, the flood is basically an undoing of creation.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. A starting over. 

David: Right, yeah. And there's even very specific language that mirrors Genesis chapter 1 and 2, creation. <Yeah.> Where suddenly that starts to be undone, even from the springs of the deep, pouring water out and water coming from the sky. Like, it's clear that instead of dry land emerging and some of these things drying up, [00:18:00] it is the abyss, you might say the springs from the deep.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right.

David: The water from heaven is actually undoing creation.

J.R.: Right, the inverse of creation. <Yes. Yeah.> Water's above and the water's below and it were bombarded from all sides.

David: And the land, the dry land is disappearing. <Yeah. Yeah. That's right.> The creatures are dying. <Yeah.> They are not being created. Yeah. And so you can go through, it's, it's an interesting study, you can go through step by step. And actually the flood is the story of an undoing of creation. <Okay.> Right? <Sure.> And there's some other layers in there too. What was God trying to destroy with the flood? We probably shouldn't go there, but ...

J.R.: Yeah, the Nephilim man, I'm telling you, the Nephilim. All right, there we go. 

David: So there's some other reasons too, why, you know, the creation was basically started over. And then when the flood recedes, you see the opposite start to occur, right? <Right.> Because what happened? If you think of the language of creation in Genesis chapter one, and then you think of the [00:19:00] description of what was happening on the ark and what Noah was watching. Well, what Noah was watching , what is being described is the waters dry up, right? The springs stop springing.

J.R.: Yes. Yeah, that's right.

David: Right? The dry land begins to appear and emerge. <Right.> Creatures begin to emerge. 

J.R.: Right. The dove is sent out.

David: The dove is sent out. 

J.R.: It comes back with an olive branch. So vegetation and growth is started again. 

David: Vegetation, yes. <Yeah.> So it's very much an undoing of creation and then a recreation. Okay. <Okay. Yeah.> And it's kind of a very interesting way to look at the flood. <Yeah.> It wasn't a cosmic temper tantrum. It's very much the story of God saying, look, human beings have not been good stewards of this creation, and I am going to undo creation and then I am going to recreate.

J.R.: yeah. In Genesis, he brought order out of chaos. And then he undid that order at the flood and then, and then essentially started over.

David: And then started over again.

J.R.: That's right. 

David: Started over with bringing order out of [00:20:00] chaos, <That's So why are we talking about all that? And what bearing does that have on the promise to never flood the earth again? <Right.> Well, I think we can see the promise then of the rainbow to not flood the earth as actually a promise not to do creation over again.

J.R.: Right. Not to start from scratch. <Right.> Not to wipe everyone off. <Exactly.> And you're right, you could read that and say, well, he doesn't promise that the meteor is not going to hit. But you're saying that this is more of a promise, a covenant, that we're not going to completely start over. We're gonna do it a different way. 

David: Yes. Yeah. I think it's more than just saying, I will never flood the earth again. I think it is more of a promise to say, never again will I start over creation. <Right.> And you know, from that, I think there's some interesting ideas that emerge from it, because from that I think we can say, well, then should we live in constant fear that creation is about to be undone. Well, the Bible says no. Yeah, he says he's not gonna do that anymore. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, that's right [00:21:00] Well that it's that whole order and chaos thing that he's not gonna completely undo Creation in order to bring order again. He's gonna bring order a different way and that has tones of sending his son that has tones of Jesus. <Yeah.> We're gonna establish order. Listen, man is gonna screw up. Man is gonna sin. It, it's not like all the problems went away after the flood. We still mess things up. Sure. But , he's gonna bring order a different way and that's gonna come through his son bringing order and we'll of course we'll get into the second coming of his son. <Yes.> Which will be the ultimate bringing of order, establishing order on the earth and removing the chaos. 

David: Yeah, no, that's a really interesting point that you can almost see the sending of Jesus to the earth as an alternative of a do over again.

J.R.: Right, as God keeping his covenant.

David: Yeah, exactly.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Okay. , so yeah, I, I can buy into that. <Okay.> It's not just merely a flood, but he could destroy us a hundred other ways, right? <Right.> But yeah, that, [00:22:00] it's a covenant , and saying that we're not going to start completely over. <Right.> I'm not going to undo what I've done. 

David: Right. And there may be some objection to say, well, look, it says a flood, right? He says, I'm not going to flood the earth. But let's go back one chapter because Noah comes off the ark in Genesis chapter 8. Now, this is interesting. Noah builds an altar and taking some of the clean animals and birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings to it, right? So he makes a sacrifice. Genesis 8:21 says, "The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart, 'never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.'" <Okay. Yeah.> So there it says it right there. 

J.R.: Yeah. A little bit clearer language. Yes. Close the loophole. So maybe for a minute he was like I'm not gonna do a flood, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get you another way. But then it sounds like he closed the loophole. Okay, good. 

David: Yeah. So I thought that was interesting because, you know, that was kind of my first thought as we [00:23:00] started thinking through that. I'm like, well, he does say the flood. But back one chapter earlier, he said, no, I'm not going to destroy the earth anymore, right? Yeah, there's no longer going to be my judgment by wiping out all of creation, right? Okay, and we're not gonna do it over.

J.R.: Yeah, so that's good to know; good for the Christian to know. <Yeah.> But we do have Revelation man, we do have ...

David: You had to bring up Revelation, didn't you? 

J.R.: Hey, we're talking about the apocalypse Yeah, so you got to get to the tough part. 

David: Right. So that's the place that probably a lot of people will go next, or maybe even initially. Talked about Noah. Doesn't Revelation talk about the end of the world?

J.R.: Yeah, I thought it said something about destroying the earth with fire. I could be wrong about that. 

David: Destroying earth with fire. Well, the first thing we have to know about Revelation, and we're going to get to some specific verses here, is that it's written in very symbolic language. 

J.R.: Right. Well, John was receiving, we talked about this last episode.

David: Last episode. Yeah. 

J.R.: John [00:24:00] was receiving a vision, not a dream, but he was, so this is all a vision. So there's heavy symbology all through it. 

David: He sees some very strange things. <Yeah.> And so to interpret any one, and this is the danger of taking any one verse and saying, doesn't revelation say this. <Right.> Because taking any one verse and applying it out of context or pressing a very literal interpretation in apocalyptic literature in general, like Revelation, can take you down a lot of weird trails, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, because he says plenty of strange things, and you have to take it all as a whole and sort of decipher it that way.

David: Yes, yes. So, let's go to Revelation 21, to a section that most people probably have in mind, or some people, some of our listeners may have already said, but what about this? <Yeah, sure.> So Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth. <Okay.> Okay. <Here we go.> So Revelation 21 verse one, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first [00:25:00] heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband." So there it is. 

J.R.: Yeah. The old earth has passed away. So there you go. There's apocalypse number two, right? 

David: Old earth is done and new heaven and new earth. Right? And I think from what you had just mentioned earlier, I think a lot of people assume, well, then, and you'll even see people say this, you'll see it in some contemporary writing that look, the earth is going to be destroyed anyway. We're going to heaven.

J.R.: Right, right, right. Well, the first thing you have to do is say he does make it clear a new heaven and a new earth. The old heaven and the old earth have passed away. So if you're going to say that the earth is going to be destroyed, then you also have to say heaven is also going to be destroyed. Take that same literal view of heaven. And that's, that's a bigger stretch. You don't hear people talking about, you know, God's going to destroy heaven one day. You know, I've never heard anybody say [00:26:00] that.

David: That's true. So that's a good point. 

J.R.: You can't take one without the other. So what's he saying here then?

David: Well, so again, I think there's a couple of things that could be said here about this. And they're all more in the realm of symbolism. But when you go back to this verse and it says, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth." And by the way, what this is, is a quote from Isaiah chapter 65. <Okay.> So, in some sense, you would almost have to go back and look at the original context to see why John in Revelation said, Hey, I'm quoting Isaiah chapter 65 here, right? <Okay.> Because Isaiah is having his own vision. So John is not saying, this is how the world's going to end. John is actually pulling from But, let's throw a couple ideas out there, you know. "And I saw a new heaven or new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

First of all, it doesn't say that it was destroyed. <Right, right.> It said it's passed away. And there are many times in the Bible where it talks about eras that are coming to an end and a new one beginning. <Right.> And look, [00:27:00] let's go back to the birth of Christ, right? <Yeah.> That marked the end of an old era and the beginning of a new one. <Right. That's right.> And in biblical language, you could say the old era had passed away and a new one had begun. 

J.R.: And it doesn't mean the old, you know, the world was destroyed. It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean the old covenant doesn't matter anymore. And all that matters is the new covenant. Paul makes that clear. But you're right, it is a transition that we're moving on to something new. <Yes.> And Jesus is coming was inauguration of the new covenant, right? This is what's new. And here, and that's going to be the new thing going forward. So you're saying the old heaven and the old earth, it's, it's basically a paradigm shift.

This is a new era is what John seeing. <Yeah.> Not necessarily, obviously we just said that, you know, heaven is not destroyed. So, but there is an old and a new and he's creating this dividing line. <Right, right.> We don't have to go down this road, but what does it mean then, that, why is there an old heaven?

 I [00:28:00] understand the new earth and the old earth that there's something new that John seen. What does it mean that there's an old heaven? We've, we've already said that we, that it isn't destroyed. <Right.> But why is heaven, I mean, isn't it perfection? Isn't it beginning, you know, I didn't think heaven changed. So what is old and new , in the heavenly realm? 

David: Yeah. So that's, that's an interesting question. And I think you brought up a great point earlier. That if you're going to insist that the old earth was destroyed, then you have to explain why God destroys the old heaven. <Right. Right.> And in very literal terms. <Okay.> So let's back off of the whole idea of destruction and look at this idea of reordering, right? <Okay.> So if it's a reordering of the way the earth has operated, <Right.> and a new earth is emerging. <Right.> In terms of maybe either an era or a time period. <Right.> Then I think you can apply that to heaven as well. The problem, I think it's interesting you bring up, we [00:29:00] think of Heaven as the kingdom of God. somewhere far away. 

J.R.: Right, right. Always perfect. Always has been. Right. 

David: Right. The heaven throughout the Bible. Is really more of the heavenly realm and the heavenly realm is where spirits reside, right? Okay, and we talked about this with aliens sometimes.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right.

David: Peering into the heavenly realm and is is some of that what we are seeing, right? <Right.> So I think if you let go of the idea that heaven is this perfect place somewhere out there that God's going to take us away from earth. And he's going to, you know, kick the earth to boot when he leaves and take us all to heaven. <Yeah.> Then I think you have to look at this idea or consider the possibility that here he's talking about the heavenly realm. <Right.> And so what he's saying is I'm going to reorder the heavenly realm as well.

J.R.: As well as the earthly realm. Sure.

David: I mean, look, when it, when Jesus was on the earth, the apostle Paul over and over said, look, all things in heaven and on earth, right? will come under his reign. <Right.> [00:30:00] Now, if we're going with the old definition of heaven, why would Paul have to say, well, guess what? Heaven is now going to come under the reign of Christ. 

J.R.: Right. But when you think about it in the spiritual realm, well, Satan was cast out of the spiritual realm. <Right, right.> There's fallen angels that are spoke of in the Bible. And so, yeah, so clearly the spiritual realm is not perfect the way we view heaven and our eternal destination as perfect. Okay. 

David: Right. And so if that is the realm along with the earthly realm that is brought under the reign of Christ, then I think that explains why it says the old heaven and the old earth are passing away. <Okay.> There's going to be a reordering of heaven and earth, right? <Right. Yeah.> That's the whole message of Christ and the Gospel. <Yeah.> It's all going to be brought under the reign of Christ. 

J.R.: Yeah. And I like you said ordering because I think that's also something we get mixed up that the idea of creation, sometimes we think of as the material beginnings. But I think that[00:31:00] it's better to look at creation or the word create as I'm setting order, you know, that, so go back to Genesis. Genesis is not necessarily explaining the material origins of the cosmos. It's saying, this is the ordering of the cosmos. It was void. It was chaos. There was no order to it and God spoke order into it. <Right.> And then, and then when he brought Adam involved, Adam named the animals and, was man joining God in the ordering of the world.

<Yeah.> Right? And so this idea of creation we can probably get it out of our heads that it's some kind of material beginning and more of an ordering of something. <Yeah.> Okay. 

David: And along those same lines, you actually brought something up earlier that was interesting that we should hit on because there's this other little phrase in here, "because the first earth and first heaven had passed away and there was no longer any sea."

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. I love that. 

David: So in the new heaven and earth, there's not going to be an ocean. 

J.R.: Yeah, no ocean.

David: I kind of like the ocean. [00:32:00]

J.R.: Yeah, what about deep sea fishing? What about beach bums, right? 

David: So what's that about? You had a good insight on that. 

J.R.: Well, the sea, we, you know, obviously we think of that as the ocean, but the sea represents chaos. The sea was the underworld, the sea, 

David: The abyss.

J.R.: Right, the abyss. That's the way the ancients thought of that. And so they didn't look off you know, look, they fished in the ocean and they, you know, they, they probably liked the ocean pretty well too. But you get too far out there that represents chaos. <Yes.> And so John's not saying that, Hey, no ocean anymore, guys, sorry. No surfing, none of that, right? 

David: No beachside. Your mansion will not be beachside. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. He's saying there's no sea because the sea represents chaos. The sea represents disorder. 

David: Yes. So it fits actually in line with what we were just saying. If we see the old heaven and earth as chaotic and the new heaven and new earth as a reordering of things, then it would actually make sense to [00:33:00] the ancient mind is what you're saying is that there would be no sea there because that was the abyss in terms to the underworld. We talked about that in our Psalms series. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they looked at that and thought, Oh man, no ocean. You know, I'm a fisherman. I just don't think they thought that way. 

David: Right. Right. Right. So yeah, that makes sense. And it's in line with the symbolism that we've been talking about in this verse. Yeah. So there's one more point I want to draw out of these couple of verses verse two says, "I saw the holy city in the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven." again, think about the way it's talked about heaven and think about the imagery of the new Jerusalem coming down. It's almost like the New Jerusalem, the holy city, which is very much the center of God's emerging kingdom, right? <Sure> if you take it literally, it sounds like it's coming down from the sky, right?

J.R.: A city descending from the sky.

David: Yeah, but if you think about it as emerging from the heavenly realm Right. We've removed chaos. We've reordered the heavenly realm. <Right.> And so what emerges is a new Jerusalem that's [00:34:00] coming down out of heaven. 

J.R.: Yeah, because what happens in the spiritual realm mirrors what happens in the physical realm. <Right.> So now we have a new Jerusalem that corresponds with a new Jerusalem on earth. <Right.> Okay. Yeah. 

David: And that's important because it doesn't say we're going to be pulled up to the New Jerusalem in heaven. It says the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

J.R.: there you go. Okay, so you're saying what? 

David: Well, I'm saying ...

J.R.: Where's my mansion, man?

David: I'm saying that the notion that the earth is going to be utterly destroyed and then we're all going to be taken up to heaven is not actually the picture that emerges out of Revelation. It is that out of the heavenly realm, God's kingdom emerges and reorders what is going on on earth and in heaven.

J.R.: Yeah. And so the earthly realm is going to perfectly reflect the new order of the heavenly realm, which is now perfect. <Yes.> Meaning both places are going to be perfect. The new heaven, the new earth, the completely ordered physical [00:35:00] realm, the completely ordered spiritual realm. 

David: Yes. 

J.R.: Yeah. And Jesus' second coming is going to announce that, is going to usher that in. 

David: Yeah, so that's what is triggered by the return of Jesus. And again, there's other language, we don't have time to get into it today, but there's other language of, well, doesn't Jesus return and take us all to heaven? And again, that language just isn't really in the scriptures. There's symbolism and imagery of Christ returning. <Yeah.> I think it's in the book ... 

J.R.: What about, what about us being caught up in the air and all that? 

David: Yeah, that's an interesting one in the Thessalonians. Because on the surface, it looks like Jesus is catching us up in the air, like he's going to take us to heaven, right? When you really look at what that symbolism indicates, it's actually the idea of a king or an emperor heading to a city, and the subjects of the city are going out to welcome the king.

So when it says, if you think about the imagery, how we've [00:36:00] been using the heavenly realm, right? <Right.> When it says that Jesus comes down, the reason why we would meet him in the air is it's their way of saying we are anticipating his return and it's, Paul's way of saying we would go out to meet him and usher him back to the earth.

J.R.: Usher in the new order. <Yes.> Okay. 

David: And there's other imagery, again, we don't have time to get into that, but again, it's one of those passages that is cited as support for this idea that who cares what happens to the earth. It's all going to be destroyed anyway because we're all going to be taken to heaven. <Yeah.> And when you really look into it, and you know, people have their opinions, but that's not really what it's saying. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. To go to the two extremes, I've heard I've heard people say... Look, we're not going to be able to destroy this earth. God promises he's not going to destroy it. Doesn't matter what we do. We can throw all the garbage out there if we want. We can put all our toxic stuff in the oceans. We're not going to destroy it. We can't destroy it. God's going to create a new heaven and new earth, <Right.> And so that's the one extreme. It's [00:37:00] obviously a little bit cartoonish, a little bit absurd. I don't think anybody really believes that, but at the same time, that is sort of one extreme opinion.

And then on the other is, man, we gotta do everything we can. Yeah, that we constantly have to live in this fear that we're screwing up the earth, right? just like you said that God's going to destroy it anyway. There's nothing we can do about it. And yeah, the answer is going to be, man, let's be good stewards of what we got. Let's take care of what we have. While we are saying, we don't believe that there's going to be a complete apocalypse like the flood. We can still screw things up. We can , we can still, make things <Yeah.> a pretty messy place for ourselves until the second coming . So there's no need to be ignorant of the stewardship that we've been given.

David: Right. <Okay.> Yeah. Well, so yeah, so let's summarize then what we're saying so as to not be misunderstood. I think you brought up a good first point that I wanted to comment on real quick. Because you said that one extreme said well [00:38:00] It doesn't matter what we do to the earth. God's not gonna destroy it, right? I can throw my trash out the window. <Right, right.> And, let's be honest if that's your attitude, especially as a Christian then you are actively participating in the chaos of the world.

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to say sure. I mean go back to Adam naming the animals. That was Adam's participation of bringing order into the world. Why would we assume that we can come along and undo any of that? <Right.> With our own destructive actions Why would we be a part of that? 

David: Right. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's safe to say that if that happens to be anyone's attitude, then my question would be, why do you think it's okay for you to actively participate in the chaos that God promises he will undo one day?

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Okay. 

David: So that's, that's just one thought that I had as you were saying that one extreme. The second thing I think we can say from all this is that look, you can pick and choose your verses, but look, we looked at the Old Testament. We're looking at some very high [00:39:00] arcing symbolism, the flood, and then New Testament, very high arcing symbolism of Revelation. And I think what we're saying is, as Christians, I think we actually need to have some faith that God did promise he's not going to do a do over with creation.

J.R.: right. <Yes.> And as messed up as the world is obviously, let's not participate in that. But at the same time as messed up as the world is God does promise to come again and bring complete order <Yes.> and usher in the new heaven and the new earth, which is gonna be perfection and perfectly ordered.

David: Yes. Okay. Now, as a subpoint to that, again, we can mess things up pretty good, <Sure.> in the earthly realm. <Yeah.> We're perfectly capable of causing disasters and chaos. <Absolutely.> So it is not a statement to say, well, there's nothing bad we can do. We have plenty of evidence that there can be chaos, there can be terrible things [00:40:00] that happen, but what we're talking about is basically global annihilation.

J.R.: Right, yeah, that's right. I like the idea of going back to the Flood and saying that, the Flood is the undoing of creation. God promised He won't do that. So he finds another way to bring order, which is through his son <Yes.> through the first coming. And then through his son in the second coming, again, it's, it's not that the first coming of Jesus took away all our problems and made a perfect world.

That there's a time in between that, but there's the promise of the second coming where the initial bringing of his son to earth is going to be manifest and completely made whole, right? It's sort of a two stage deal. <Yeah.> But I've really never thought of the flood and Jesus and the second coming. I've never really tied all those together. And I really like that imagery. It's helpful of bringing order out of chaos.

David: Yeah, actually, that's a really interesting thread to say that there is a continual, [00:41:00]consistent theme in creation, in the flood, in the coming of Jesus, and in the book of Revelation. <Yeah. Yeah.> There is a consistent pattern of what is happening. <Right.> And when you understand that pattern, it does not point to global annihilation of the world.

J.R.: Right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And to have faith that the second coming is going to be complete order, that it is going to be perfection. But that in the meantime, we need to be part of God's ordering process, and he invites us to be a part of that, just like he invited Adam. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, I think we can summarize by then saying the last point is, if it's not obvious, that as a person of faith, I think you have to question whether you should really be living in constant fear and anxiety. And teaching that to your kids. <Right.> And promoting it however you promote it. That we are on the brink of doomsday. 

J.R.: Yeah. Well, [00:42:00] listen, man, fear is an effective tool. I've said this before, but fear is effective. When we're children, I'm scared of my dad, right? Dad could spank me. Dad's, you know, I was, I was scared of dad, right? Fear was effective. It kept me in line, kept me from doing things. But as I got older I stopped reacting out of fear and I start reacting out of love.

And so I, I think fear is what you can use to get a child or a baby in line, But as we mature, fear stops being effective. And, what is the most effective is respect. You know, I will do what dad says, not because I'm afraid he can physically hurt me or anything like that, but because I greatly respect everything he says. It would break my heart to damage that relationship and that respect.

I think we can kind of look at things the same way. I think the fear mongers, that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to get you in line. They're [00:43:00] trying to scare you into a particular ideology or a particular way of thinking. And, what really we need to be doing as mature Christians is saying No, no, no. I respect what God's doing. I respect the order that he's bringing into this world and I want to be a part of it. Not because I'm scared to death that he's going to send a comet and destroy us. But that I want to be a part of this ordering process because he promises that it's going to be completely ordered in the end. And why wouldn't I want to be part of that while I'm alive? <Yeah, yeah.> Yeah. 

David: And what, something you just said, if someone is resorting to fear to motivate you to do something, Why have they resorted to fear? I mean, that's a good question. <Yeah, sure.> Like if I have this message bombarding me, whatever the issue, fear, fear, fear. I think we need to step back and say, wait a minute, why have they resorted to fear? Why is fear the primary force that's driving some action that they want out of me?

J.R.: Yeah, fear is a, what? A baser emotion than, [00:44:00] yes, relationship, facts, information, conversation, debate, all of those things, right? That takes work. It's easier to just scare somebody into action than to inspire someone to action, right? <Yeah. Yeah.> Yeah, it's a little bit of a cheap trick. It's not that there should be no fear, you know, that there really are dangers in the world that we need to warn people about. But yes when you're constantly being bombarded with fear, people are trying to fear you into action. It's because they are either incapable or unable to inspire you to action.

David: Yeah. Yeah. <Yeah. I like that.> I think that's true. And look, just as you were talking, what's one of the commands that you see over and over from the words of Jesus? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. How about we just go to Jesus's words? <Yeah.> Fear not.

David: Do not fear. <Yeah. Sure.> Right? <Yeah.> 

So let's talk about this idea of operating out of a sense of fear. <Yeah.> Like we, we know fear is a natural reaction in cases. [00:45:00] We also know the damage it can do. So, I mean, let's talk about always being in a state of fear.

J.R.: Well, fear, first of all, is a deeply, deeply biological response. If the bear comes out of the woods, we don't need to think and consider what the ramifications are. We just need to run, right? All of our resources, and there's actually a physical switch in our brain that diverts blood from the, limbic system of the brain away from the prefrontal cortex where we, where you and I think and converse and debate, right?

<Yeah.> All it does is say run, right? That's the fight, flight, or freeze. And, and, that is an immediate response, you know, for mortal danger, and that's obviously necessary to do that. 

David: Sure. It's so what you're saying is it's a very short term response. <Yes.> If I see danger in front of me, I experienced fear and my body almost my brain shuts down. Everything not necessary to, you need to act right in this next moment.

J.R.: Right. Don't think about [00:46:00] it. Let's not have a conversation. Don't move. Right. <Right.> Yeah. And which is also why, when you're in emotional conversation with somebody and tempers flare and someone's defensive, the best thing to do is just to walk away from that. You know, that, fear, switch has been engaged. You're not thinking clearly. Back away. Let's have a conversation later. <Yeah.> Let the tempers come down. Because you're just not going to get anywhere with that, because you're not thinking with all of your brain, literally. You're not thinking with all of your brain. <Yeah, yeah.> So, I mean. <Good point.> Yeah, so, it's just not the time to do that, so. 

David: Yeah. But we also know those same mechanisms that say, Hey, you need to act in this moment right now. <Right.> We know those same mechanisms on a longterm basis cause tremendous damage to our body.

J.R.: Sure. Stress, ulcers. There's all kinds of things. 

David: Anxiety. Right. Yeah. You like you were saying, you don't think straight. <Right.> And yeah, it can cause illnesses. Basically starts to break the body [00:47:00] down when it's operating out of that mode continually.

J.R.: Right, because it's not meant to do that. <Right.> It's meant to save your life the short term. But it's, it, it will actually destroy your life in the long term.

<Yeah. Yeah.> Yeah. That's a, that's a good way to put it. 

David: Yeah. So I think we can summarize by saying, you know, look, whatever modern issues, whatever sources, you're, getting your news from, when fear is involved, , like, look, Jesus himself said, like, don't operate out of fear, right? Don't operate out of fear. <Right.> Now, there may be things that I call you to do, so it doesn't mean there aren't causes that some of you may feel strongly about. <Right.> I really feel like I want to stay involved in this or that or whatever it is. <Yeah.> But don't do it out of fear. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. I think we've made it clear. We're not telling anybody to, Hey man, just ignore your political cause. That's not what we're saying. But at the same time, if you're operating out of fear and we see a lot of that, man, we see a lot of that in the news today.

David: Oh yeah.

J.R.: This call to fear. Then you're not doing [00:48:00] what Jesus said. And that is fear not, you know be inspired, take action, but don't do it out of fear. Don't do it cause you're terrified, right? <Right. Right.> You know, that's just not the way we should be responding. 

David: Right. Yeah. I don't think as people of faith, we are to go around acting out of fear and harboring fear and stoking fear. There's nothing to do with the good news of Jesus. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I, yeah, I like that. That's a, that's a perfect way to wrap it up. 

David: Yeah. That was actually really interesting. And you know, just a little bit behind the scenes, like you and I don't always, well, we really don't rehearse much at all about how are we going to end this and wrap it up. Even it was kind of just neat to go, yeah, that was a good place that our conversation ended.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, no, this is totally unrehearsed. The words of Jesus. Let's what mic drop, right? It's been a good, it's a good series. I really enjoyed this series. I've enjoyed this season. It was great. 

David: Yeah. <All right.> Yeah. A lot of great [00:49:00] things we could have talked about a lot more. I just mentioned to you the other day that man on this whole stranger things like, man, I just thought of a couple other things. But, well, that's all for season two, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. We can add that to it. That's right. Virtual reality. You brought that up. I brought up virtual reality. And I jumped all over and said, dude, we got to do an episode on virtual reality. All right. So maybe next time. 

David: Yeah. We'll do part two, Stranger Things part two, because I'm sure our world will keep delivering us stranger things. 

J.R.: Yeah, no doubt. And if you have something to add to our list of Stranger Things, man, let us know. We'll tackle it. 

David: Yeah. Our website navigatinganancientfaith. com. Facebook group by the same name. Get in contact with us and let us know what you think and we'll see you in Season 2. 

J.R.: Here we go. We'll see y'all.