What Is Truth: Paul's Areopagus Message

Journey back to ancient Athens with us! 🏛️ On a stopover in Athens, the Apostle Paul was invited to share his ideas with a group of Stoic philosophers. 🗣️ At the Areopagus, or Mars Hill, the Apostle Paul masterfully weaves the truth of the gospel into the fabric of their mythological stories. ✨ Explore how Paul crafted his message to resonate with a pagan culture in this concluding episode of our two-part series on "What Is Truth?" 📜

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: Our Visit to Mars Hill
• 8:31 Paul's Stopover in Athens
• 20:19 The Statue to the Unknown God
• 29:42 God does not Live in Your Temples
• 36:25 God Did This So You Would Seek Him
• 50:22 As Your Own Poets Have Said
• 1:02:58 Was The Message Received?

Transcript

Paul's Areopagus Message

David: [00:00:00] Spoiler alert, he does not just come out and say, all you pagans are wrong, repent and be baptized. 

J.R.: He doesn't own them? Come on, man. 

David: He doesn't. He doesn't do that. 

J.R.: He should do a YouTube video on this. 

David: All right. We can't talk about Mars Hill in Athens, I think, without you and I having a couple of fun memories about standing there on Mars Hill, the Areopagus, when we were in Athens. Actually, we've been there twice. I remember the first time we went in 2013, right? Right. And I remember looking for Mars Hill. Right. I was just about to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember we couldn't really locate it. We couldn't find it. And so there was this big rock outcrop and we kind of climbed on that. And we were relaxing up there and I was checking a map or my phone. And I realized we were actually sitting on Mars Hill. 

J.R.: Yeah. So it's a little underwhelming in the sense [00:01:00] that you just expect something to be there. 

David: I guess that's one of the main things. I had always heard of Mars Hill, first of all, that's kind of a cool sounding name, and I thought, man, you know, I want to see this place. But you're right, it is kind of ...

J.R.: This red, red planet looking rock, you know, yeah, stand out.

David: Some kind of dome, like the big red dome at Epcot or something like that, from ancient Athens. I don't know what you had in mind, but yeah, in other words, I don't know what I pictured. But yeah, you're right, it was kind of underwhelming. It was just this big rock outcropping. 

J.R.: Right, yeah. And it does make sense. I mean, it was just a natural rock outcropping and they had some buildings and stuff built on the rock, obviously in Paul's day and ancient days. But all that's gone. And so really all you see is just kind of - it's kind of, like I said, it's kind of like a park, a lot of people hanging around, setting up their sunbathing on the top of this rock outcropping. And after we wandered around for a little bit, we kind of went down and we're like, Oh, here's a big plaque [00:02:00] that explains it exactly. 

David: Then we saw the plaque. There's a plaque there that has the apostle Paul's message, which is kind of cool, has the message on the Areopagus, so. <Right, right.> So that was our first experience with that. 

J.R.: Yeah, but if you didn't have that plaque, yeah, you'd easily miss it. 

David: It was easy to miss. There weren't a lot of people up there. So we were just kind of wandering around and, you know, like you said, a couple people up there reading or on their phones or something. And then we realized, oh, we're standing on Mars Hill. 

J.R.: Here it is. And it is a good, you get a good view of the city. <Oh, yeah.> It's obviously not the Parthenon. But, It's at the base of it and you stand up there. It's just kind of a neat view of the city <Yeah, yeah.> because you are up above everything. 

David: So the second time we went back in a couple years ago now, we knew where we were going this time. And so the experience that time was, okay - so the Areopagus is this rock outcropping of basically marble or granite. But so many tourists now have walked on it [00:03:00] even since we were there. 

J.R.: Yeah, I don't know if I had on different shoes or something like that. Why it was like ice the second time. I don't remember that the first time. 

David: It was so slippery up there. And of course when you look down, I mean it looked like polished marble almost.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. And we saw a couple people eat it, man. They crashed. 

David: There were a lot of people up there. We passed that one woman who was sitting there and her head was bleeding and some people were attending to her. And, yeah, I think the comment both you and I made was in the United States, they would have fenced this off. There would be no way that people would be allowed especially in the middle of a city, just crawl all over this super slippery, huge rock where I'm sure people get injured almost on a daily basis, probably.

J.R.: Yeah. There would be hard hat tours with rope guides and you could, you know, there, you wouldn't, it wouldn't be the free for all that it is today. 

David: No. 

J.R.: [00:04:00] Yeah. It'd be surrounded by litigation proof netting is what it would be surrounded by now. I mean, just cause you, you know, there's just lawsuits everywhere. And I don't know if, Greece is not like the United States, but now I'm running around up there and ... 

David: In that respect, I don't think it, I don't think that it is like the United States, but. 

J.R.: No, it was great though. But yes, it, it's super slick. And, on the far side of the rock, man, it's a pretty good tumble. You're, what? 75, 80 feet up. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty big drop off.

J.R.: You'd 

David: get 

J.R.: more than a bloody forehead. 

David: The other side was more of a gentle slope down to the main part of the Agora area. And so the other thing that struck me is I'm not sure whether they actually know whether there was a building on top or whether Mars Hill served as a backdrop to maybe this meeting place where everyone in Athens met. It was kind of a court of law place where philosophers hang out. We're going to talk about that here in a minute. But it was hard to kind of picture because, [00:05:00] remember how windy it also <Oh yeah.> it was up there? It was wicked windy. And we were joking around that Paul trying to give his message, you know, bracing himself for the wind and slipping around and going, Man, this this stinks guys. Can't we go back down to the Agora or something like that? 

J.R.: Right. And all the listeners saying, "Speak up, you're going to have to speak up. We can't hear you. The wind's too loud." No kidding. So maybe it wasn't a windy day, but I know that as you kind of go down that hill a little bit, there were etched into the stone, there were clearly ancient walls that had been erected. You know, how they kind of carve out the little squares. So something, some buildings had been there. But you're right up on the top there didn't seem to be much of that. So it might have been down a little bit further. 

David: Yeah, so maybe it was just <down the hill.> symbolic. Maybe it was just that rock outcropping that served as a backdrop to this place. I don't know. It's hard to believe that people actually met on top of that place. But But that's what we see now, <you know togas man.> yeah, two thousand [00:06:00]years later, yeah. <Right> Well, we're talking about all this because we today are going to talk about Paul's message to the Areopagus or Mars Hill in Acts chapter 17. We're talking about this as part two of our series on "What is Truth?" So last time we talked about this hierarchy of truth, which by the way, I did write an article and I put it on our website. And there's a little visualization of that hierarchy that we talked about. 

J.R.: Oh, that's cool. 

David: Mainly because I wanted to play around with AI picture generation, so. 

J.R.: Okay. So yeah, you did it via AI.

David: I did. I did the picture via AI. Now, okay, so here's one thing maybe you can tell me. If AI is so smart and it's going to take over the world, how come it can't spell things right? Because ...

J.R.: Oh, yes, no, there's actually, okay, so that's actually a known thing. 

David: Okay.

J.R.: That in pictures, like if you said generate me a football team, the [00:07:00] numbers and the letters would be really, really random. It's almost like it doesn't know how to in fact, there's a new AI and I'm, I can't give credit because I can't remember, but there's a new AI picture generator that that's what its focus is. You'll actually get a correct spelling of like, it won't be names on the back of the jerseys of the football team. It'll be literally random letters because it doesn't distinguish that in the picture, which is kind of an interesting limitation. 

David: Yeah, no. So I'm, telling AI to create this pyramid with four layers on it. So it kind of gave me some interesting pictures about super futuristic or kind of ancient Egyptian. And I was like, well, I like the ancient Egyptian one. And I said, here's the four layers. And first of all, it would sometimes give me three layers or five layers, and I'm like, no four layers, right? And then I would say, here's what you need to label each layer. And finally, it put these labels on the sides of this pyramid in kind [00:08:00] of this really cool way, but they were always misspelled. 

J.R.: That's interesting <everything.> I don't know. I don't understand the limitation of it, but it is a known thing.

David: Yeah, well, I don't know how AI is gonna achieve world domination when it can't even spell domination. So, but I finally had to put my own labels. Anyway, so I kind of wrote that up if you're more visual, it talks about that hierarchy truth. I'll put a link in the show notes about where you can find that. 

J.R.: Yeah, I'll have to check that out. 

David: Yeah. So just summarizes our thoughts from last time. But today we're going to talk about Paul's message at the Areopagus, because I think it's an interesting way that Paul approaches this idea of truth versus how we normally think of, you know, the gospel message, the truth of the Bible. And he approaches it in very ... 

J.R.: Right, and we kind of introduced this, well, we introduced this with Pilate's question to Jesus, "What is truth?" Right? And so we're going to finish up with Paul's sort of answering that. <Yeah.> Maybe not answering it, but kind of refining [00:09:00] this idea of what truth is.

David: Yeah. How Paul navigates this idea of trying to communicate truth to a pagan culture, basically. <Right. Right.> And, spoiler alert, he does not just come out and say, all you pagans are wrong, repent and be baptized. 

J.R.: He doesn't own them? Come on, man. 

David: He doesn't. He doesn't do that. 

J.R.: He should do a YouTube video on this. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. So, none of that. Yeah, so that's what we're going to talk about today. So, Paul's message on the Areopagus. A little bit of background, really quick. So, on Paul's second missionary journey, he travels over to Greece, goes to Philippi. We just finished a series on Philippians. So, he goes to Philippi. Book plug: buy A Journey Through Philippi. It's out now. 

J.R.: Yeah, well played. Yeah. Subtle. Subtle. 

David: Okay, yeah. Subtle. I just worked that in. So, he goes from Philippi to Thessalonica, right? Now, Thessalonica is where he immediately meets with some [00:10:00] receptivity, but the Jewish synagogue there in Thessalonica isn't having it, and they stir a crowd against Paul. <Right.> And so, basically, Paul's, you know, supporters there in Thessalonica say, look Paul, for everyone's safety, you've basically got to leave town. And so Paul leaves town and tells, I think, Timothy and Silas that he'll meet them in Athens. So then it says Paul goes to Berea. We didn't go to Berea, but apparently you can go there. And then it said, "From Berea he went to the coast and he took a boat to Athens." Now the other thing that we talked about before, which is interesting, is that there's a lot of speculation that the only place from Berea to get a boat would have been Dion. 

J.R.: Right. So that's right. 

David: Yeah, and so that was an amazing archaeological site that we went to sitting right there on the ocean now. And so Paul probably would have gone from Berea to Dion He would have caught a boat and then followed the coast and ended up in Athens. Now, he's waiting in Athens then for [00:11:00]Timothy and Silas to join him because they're gonna take the land route. And so he has, you know, some time by himself to just kick around Athens. And you get the idea that it is a completely different world that Paul just walks into, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, right. And it's interesting because modern-day Athens, it is surprising that there's not a letter to the church in Athens. Like, you know, it's such a modern city that you're thinking, oh, Paul's gonna have a heyday here, but this is really the only mention of Athens in the New Testament. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Is that right? 

David: I think so. Yeah. 

You would expect it. Yeah, you would expect references to Athens like you might Rome, you know? Man, if I just can get to Rome, the church in Rome. We would kind of expect that with Athens, but you don't see it.

J.R.: Yeah, it's, it's easily the most significant city in Greece, even at the time. There's all these churches that they plan around it. But it's almost like they just couldn't get, or it's almost like Paul just couldn't get any traction in Athens, maybe. 

David: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. And there are some [00:12:00] converts. We'll get into that in a second. But yeah, as far as establishing a pretty solid church, that either didn't happen or it just didn't take hold like some of the other areas had. 

David: Yeah. All right. So that's kind of the background of this. We can pick it up in Acts chapter 17, verse 16. I'll just read this real quick - before we get into the message that Paul gives. Verse 16 says, "While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols." And it is. 

J.R.: Right. Right. To this day, very much so. 

David: Yeah. They're - everywhere you go, there are references to Greek gods: Zeus, Apollo, you know, everything. Everything has a temple; there's statues everywhere. And so this must have been what Paul saw as well. As much as Paul had been in some pagan cities, you know, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica, he gets to Athens and you almost get the sense, again, he's just overwhelmed. Oh my [00:13:00] goodness, look, it's everywhere, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, here's a culture that's obsessed with a multiplicity of ideas. You know, just a multiplicity of gods. Whereas, when we went to Didyma, there's obviously this huge temple that's not there anymore, but this foundation for this temple to Apollo. And so most of the little towns that we went to, they were kind of centralized around a particular god or goddess. And Athens is just kind of the mishmash of all of it. Whereas a smaller town might say, well, we worship, Artemis. 

David: Artemis off the Ephesians, Apollo in Didyma. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Aphrodite in Corinth, you know.

J.R.: Aphrodite, yes, in Corinth, that's right. And so the significance of the town is based around a particular god or goddess, typically. But Athens was not like that. Man, it was all on display. 

David: Yeah. And obviously the Parthenon was dedicated to Athena who was the protector. And that, that's going to play actually into this message that Paul's going to give a little bit easy to miss, but [00:14:00] it's there. But you're right. I mean, there was a temple to Nike also, not the shoe company, the god, the goddess, I should say. And you know, we saw the temple of Zeus. We toured the temple of Zeus. And so there were these giant temples everywhere throughout the city to where what I think you're saying is most cities had one central temple dedicated to their protector god. <Right.> Where in Athens, it was all on display. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. That Athena would have been the primary, but the identity was just a multiplicity of gods.

David: Right. Yeah. And even in the Agora, I mean, there was the temple to Hephaestus, there was a temple to Apollo that they know was there. I mean, so you can just go down the list and list all the temples that were in Athens. And this is what Paul took in when he's sitting there waiting for his colleagues to show up, right? <Right.> So it says that [00:15:00] Paul reasoned in the synagogue. He went to the marketplace, which is probably the Agora there at the base of the Acropolis. And it says "A group of Epicureans and Stoic philosophers begin to talk with him."

And so they say, we want to hear more about what this thing that you're talking about is, this good news about this person, Jesus. And so this is where in verse 19, it says, "They took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, and they said, 'May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?'" Alright, so your bringing strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know more.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And then there's this verse real quick before we get into it that says, "All the Athenians and foreigners who live there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas." Which is kind of a funny verse.

J.R.: Yeah. I like that asterisk there, the clarification. <Yeah, yeah.> Well, basically these saying that they were obsessed with either telling or hearing something [00:16:00] new. <Yeah.> And, just that verse implies a couple things when it comes to truth, that they were A) searching for truth and B) they hadn't quite found it yet. <Right.> Because they're telling the truth that they've, you know, the things that they've heard over the years, they're telling that. But they're also willing to hear because whatever philosophy that they've kind of crafted, it wasn't quite complete because they were always willing to hear something new. And that's basically, I just think it's interesting that they spent their time doing, in nothing except for that. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Except for those two things. 

David: And we had commented when we were there that we thought about that verse. And you wonder if Paul gives this message and dialogues with them. But after you know, after a little bit, Paul just says, "Look, man, these people are never gonna actually run with something. They just want to sit around and talk about it."

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. And that was kind of our idea. That's probably why a church never really got any traction in Athens. Because nobody ever did anything. They just wanted to sit around and philosophize about it. 

David: Yeah, yeah. It's [00:17:00] like the guy who, you know, listens to 50 different podcasts every week, but, you know, never actually does anything with the information.

J.R.: All these interesting ideas of whatever the wind blew that week, whatever he happened to listen to. Right. 

David: Yeah, we can be like that today, you know, consume all the latest information, but never actually do anything about it with your life, so. <Right.> That's what the Athenians were, at least in Paul's mind, or Luke's mind, who's writing this down. So then verse 22 says, "Paul stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus." And then he gives this message.

Now, a couple more things before we jump into this that I think's interesting. It's called the Areopagus, or Mars Hill. Now, Mars Hill is actually the Roman word for the Areopagus. 

J.R.: Right. Well, we were joking around earlier about we expected to see this big red hill. I guess we're thinking the red planet or Mars, you know, but really, and it makes, perfect sense. Now you [00:18:00] feel like an idiot. But no Ares is the Greek god and Mars is the Roman god. <Yes, exactly.> It was, it was simply named after the God of War, Mars, <Yes.> which is what the Red Planet is also named after.

David: Yeah. Greek God Ares, Roman God Mars. Basically the same god in their minds. But yeah, Ares was supposedly standing trial there at that rock because he murdered Poseidon's son. I'm kind of looking down at my notes. I don't know the exact myth, but there's some story about that to where this becomes then the place of judgment. And that's kind of important, too. That's what the Areopagus is. It's a place of judgment, right? <Right.> And it's rooted in this myth of Ares being put on judgment there. So, that's kind of an interesting background to this whole message as well.

J.R.: Yeah, that it wasn't necessarily like a formal charge where if you were charged with murder, they would probably take you someplace else to a more formal courthouse, but the Areopagus was [00:19:00] more of an informal you know, ideas were more on trial there. And so they would come and debate it, and they would treat it like a courthouse, but more of a courthouse judging ideas.

David: Yeah, yeah. Now we had read something ...

J.R.: And philosophers would go back and forth. 

David: Yeah, so it was a place where, you could say it was a place where ideas were judged. It had become that place. <Right.> You know, philosophers would sit around and talk about things. That's where you would hang out and meet. But when we were there also, we actually saw something that had indicated that Paul was on trial for the message that he was teaching, which I don't think is correct. But once you understand that background, you can kind of almost see how people make that link or that jump. Because if this was a place of judgment and Paul is being brought there, then was he being judged? Was he in some kind of informal trial? Which I don't think that was the case because like I said. I think it had become more of a place where ideas are weighed and judged and that Paul wasn't [00:20:00] actually formally brought up on anything. 

J.R.: Right, his ideas were certainly on trial, but don't get this picture of them dragging him before the magistrate, demanding justice.

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: You know, it was more, yeah, it's more like, bring him in with the philosophers and let's put some stress on these ideas and see if they play out. 

David: Yeah, let's test these ideas out here. So, Paul gets into this message, and we're not gonna read the whole thing, but we're gonna, there's some interesting phrases that we can just kind of walk through and hopefully start to build the structure that Paul is laying out on how to communicate the truth, right, of the gospel to these people who had all kinds of different ideas in their head. <Right.> And even debating what is truth, right? Like Pilate. I mean, you know, in ancient Athens, , they were having all these same debates as well. <Sure.> So in verse 22 of Acts 17 Paul starts out by saying, "People of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of [00:21:00] worship, I even found an altar with this inscription to an unknown God." Alright, so even how he starts out, I think is interesting. "I see that in every way you are very religious." Right? And that's kind of an interesting way that he starts out by actually, well, we would say today, connecting with his audience, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. And you could take that as a little bit cynicism, you know? I can see that every way you guys are religious, and you can almost If you can read it one way and you can almost see the eye roll in it. But I don't think, I think he's being genuine. I think he is trying to connect with his audience. Because I think they are clearly searching for something, you know. When you go to Athens and you see all this focus on the gods and goddesses and mythology, you can see that they're struggling to find something and Paul's picking up on that. It's plainly obvious. And so that's where he starts. Yeah. And I, think man, we could, we'd do well to take a few notes about what Paul's doing here as opposed to come in [00:22:00] winning the debate, you know, setting up the sides of here's what's right and here's what's wrong. And we're going to argue about who has truth on their side, right? And that's not how this is set up. And I just think it's interesting kind of in our modern day debate, argue culture that Paul kind of has a different, a little bit different angle on this. 

David: Well, even YouTube clickbait, you know, the headlines always say the same thing, : so and so smashes arrogant college student, you know? And I gotta admit I'm a sucker sometimes for some of those, depending on what the topic is. And you click on it and I usually almost always regret it. But there are some people who I, you know, I like to listen to them debate and have genuine conversation but the headlines are always, you know, so and so smashes or humiliates this person. And then you click on it, and you're like, well, no, they just had a conversation, you know? <Yeah, yeah.> But I think ... 

J.R.: Well, it's like this draw toward the combative. <Yeah, yeah.> It's something about the combat that we're like, oh yeah, this is gonna be good. <Yeah.> And, yeah, Paul's, [00:23:00] that's not where Paul's starting.

David: So, yeah, clearly Paul is not going for the, you know, Paul smashes arrogant Stoic philosophers. <Right.> But that's how it would have, if there was YouTube back then, that's how it would actually show up on YouTube. , But no, he starts by affirming where they're at, right? He looks around and he's distressed at all the idols. But then thinking about it for a little bit, he flips that around and he says, okay, I can see that you guys are probably among the most religious people I've ever been around, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: Which I think is fascinating way that he does that, right? And what I would say, based on what we talked about last episode, is I would say he identifies where they are at, and now he's going to try to push them up the hierarchy. To say, I see where you're at here, but I want you to see something bigger. I want you to see the actual story that's going on. That's how I would almost summarize this.

J.R.: Right. No, he wasn't there to win a [00:24:00] debate. <Right.> He was trying to nudge their misguided search in the right direction. And there's a quote, and I don't know who to give credit to this to, but it's something, a quote, that basically says, "You can either win the debate or win the person. But you can't do both."

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And so many times, that's what we want to do.We set out to win the debate. And I think it's Dale Carnegie, in How to Win Friends and Influence People. There's a chapter in that book that is titled, it's something like it's titled, "You can't win an argument." And what he says in this is that even if you win the argument, you've lost the person because you've, wounded their pride. If you go in in a combative way, you've lost the person. And obviously if you lose the argument, well, you lost the idea battle. And so his take, I think Paul would agree with him is, don't go in setting up a debate or an argument because you're going to lose one of those two things. You're going to lose either lose the debate or the person.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And I've read that Ben Franklin had the same idea, you know, when it comes to [00:25:00]arguments and debates. And so, yeah, Paul is not trying to set up a debate. He's just trying to, yeah, push them up the hierarchy. Like you said, I believe. <Yeah.> Give them a deeper understanding of another level of truth, perhaps.

David: Right. I recall a story about Ravi Zacharias, and I used to really enjoy listening to Ravi Zacharias debate college students and atheists, things like that. He was an apologist, and I remember distinctly a story where he said, one particular talk, he was debating this atheist professor, and she was a little bit combative. And she said something, and he said, I had the perfect comeback for her. And he said it, and it was like, mic drop and the crowd applauded. And he's like, man, I knew I knew at that point I had won. But he goes, I felt terrible because I could see her disconnect. Like you were saying - I knew I had wounded her pride and basically pushed her further away from the gospel that he was trying [00:26:00] to present. <Right.> And I never forgot that moment, you know? 

J.R.: Yeah. Cause I mean, when you get embarrassed, I mean, that's that fight or flight mechanism in your brain. You're either going to run or you're going to put up a defensive wall and your reason is literally shut down in your brain. And yeah, that's why you really can't win an argument if that's your goal, you're not going to win it. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: You're going to lose the person. And Paul didn't want to lose this moment, clearly. 

David: Right. So he starts out, we'll continue on, he starts out then by saying, "I even saw an altar with this inscription on it, and it said, To an unknown God." Which is kind of funny, it's like, okay, you know, we have altars to a thousand gods here in the city, but just in case, just in case we missed one, you know, we're going to cover our bases here. And this is just going to be to the generic unknown, in case we missed your name. I can't recall everyone's name. So we're going to put it all here. 

J.R.: It's like the acceptance speech where at the end, everybody I forgot to mention. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. I know I didn't mention you. I can't mention everyone, but shout out to you [00:27:00]also, you know. That's kind of what this was. And so Paul says, "You are ignorant of the very thing you worship." Which is a little bit of that mic drop moment. . But he says, but this is what I'm going to proclaim to you. So that's how he starts out. So he says, I'm going to tell you what is unknown to you by your very monument, right? Basically. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Well, I just liked that he, you can picture Paul wandering around the city and seeing this plaque to the Unknown God, and then just kind of mulling it over in his head. And then when he gets to the Areopagus and he gets in this conversation, it's almost like he realizes the silliness , of that statement to the Unknown God. And he knows how to use that to his advantage. And so he's saying, Hey, you guys are worshiping an unknown god. Well, I can make that known. We can clear that up right now. You know, let's sit down and clear this up, right? <Yeah.> And I just think that's kind of a fascinating way to, again, start off the conversation a little bit. 

David: The more I think about [00:28:00] it, it's really interesting because he's wandering around. He sees this statue, right? Unknown God. And, you know, your first reaction might be, well, the absurdity of that. I mean, if there was any religious structure that tried to have full, complete accounting for all the gods, right? It was probably Greek religion and the whole Olympic god system. But Paul sees this one statue, and instead of just going, man, this is absurd, he sees it, and I think he says, yes, this is my in, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Because you even have this thing to an unknown god, and I'm gonna fill the gap in for you. I'm gonna tell you what to you is unknown. Because that's the missing piece to this puzzle. You know, this absurd puzzle of just growing number of gods and the temples everywhere and the whole systems. And Paul says that's it. That's my in, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's [00:29:00] almost like the light bulb went off when he saw that.

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: And he used it. Again, you know, I don't think it's a necessarily a mic drop moment or Paul owns the Greek philosophers. But it is kind of that, he does see the possibility of, Oh, you call this unknown. Well, let me lay another layer of truth. You know, to go back to our idea of truth and the hierarchy, it's like, well, you know, you account for the mystery of the unknown and you just sort of say, well, this is all a mystery and I can actually put a layer of truth on there. That's actually going to lift you up the hierarchy. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: I think that's kind of what he's sort of saying here. 

David: Yeah, I think so. 

J.R.: Yeah, and then he goes on. Yeah. 

David: Yeah, so he goes on. So this is what I'm going to proclaim to you. Verse 24 says, "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands." Now, having been there, that's quite a statement. [00:30:00] Because Paul is saying the God of the world does not live in temples made by human hands. Now you have to for a moment ...

J.R.: That's gotta be insulting. 

David: Yeah, you have to pause because he's standing on the Areopagus and the backdrop of the Areopagus is the Acropolis with the Parthenon standing above everything else, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, and if you haven't been there, I mean, it's absolutely just breathtaking. <Oh, yeah.> This is modern day. 

David: Spectacular. 

J.R.: Oh, yeah. And with half of it It is still in disrepair, you know, so we're not even seeing the height of it. And you can only imagine, you know, I've walked around New York City, and you see skyscrapers, and you're blown away by that. But this is a whole different ball game when you're sitting at the base of the Acropolis and looking up the Parthenon. I mean, it really is breathtaking, and we're not even seeing it at the height of its glory. And this is what Paul's saying, you know. 

David: Yes, yes. [00:31:00] So it's quite a statement that Paul says. The Lord of heaven and earth does not live in temples built by human hands. Now, there's a lot to that statement, and let's flesh that out here for a minute. Because, again, he's sitting at the base of the Acropolis on which stands the Parthenon, which was the temple to Athena.

J.R.: Right. 

David: Right? Because Athena was the protector of Athens. Now, you and I have both done some reading on this, and It's kind of a really fascinating idea when you flesh it out, is the reason why the ancients built temples is to basically lure or bargain with the god to come dwell here and bless our city. <Right.> And in return we will offer you sacrifices, you know, food offerings, wealth, gifts, like that. And that's where temples almost become treasuries. They were fabulously wealthy. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: But it was, making a deal with a god to say, [00:32:00] you dwell here and you become the protector of this city and we will honor you and continually sacrifice to you and provide basically whatever you need, right?

J.R.: Right. And it, but it's always a bargain. 

David: Yeah. It's always a bargain. 

J.R.: Yeah. An attempt to capture a bit of the gods, right? <Yeah.> Or the favor of the gods. 

David: And look, the whole story behind the Parthenon is that Athena has this contest. She becomes she wins the contest. She becomes the protector of Athens and they build a temple in honor of her and the myth is that Athena was so impressed by this temple that she said, Yeah, I will be the protector of Athens, right? So, 

J.R.: Right. 

David: they built this to lure Athena to say you stay here and become our protector and bless this city. 

J.R.: Yeah, and it's this whole massive complex at the top of the Acropolis. And , there's hundreds of priests and priestesses and temple slaves, and there's an entire economy going on , up on the top of [00:33:00] this rock that, people are working in. And it's all for the honor and the worship of Athena. And so it's not just merely temples, it's, it's 

David: it's a whole system. It's a whole system, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, an economy going on up there, right? you know these hundreds of people are working up there and, right. So it's not merely the temples that are built by human hands, but they're also gods that are served by hundreds of people in this city that Paul's pushing back against that idea.

David: Right, and so with that backdrop now in mind, the literal backdrop of the Parthenon, but also the backdrop of why the ancients built temples to basically lure a god to bless their city, you know, it's quite a statement then that Paul says, the Lord of heaven and earth does not live in temples built by you. God, the true God is not lured by your temple, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: He's not lured by your temple. Now, when you think of the temple in [00:34:00] Jerusalem, it's a little bit different. Because the Old Testament explicitly states that God instructed them to build this temple, Remember, the instructions are from God, because he says, I am choosing to dwell with you, my people. Which is different from the Israelites building a temple and then trying to lure Yahweh to dwell there.

And that's made very explicit in the Old Testament, that no, no, no, that's not the way this works. Right? 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Right. 

David: And so, yeah, so Paul makes quite a statement here that says, look, you know, beautiful, beautiful Acropolis there, love the Parthenon guys. But listen, the Lord of heaven and earth, he's not impressed by that. You can't contain him there. You can't lure him there. That's not how this works, right? 

J.R.: Right, and all these Greeks are looking over their shoulders thinking, Wow. That's a bummer. We put a lot of time and energy in that thing. That thing wasn't built in a week, man. 

David: Oh, Paul.

J.R.: We've, we've got generations that have put their blood, [00:35:00] sweat, and tears into this place.

David: And thanks Debbie Downer. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Sorry. That doesn't matter. 

David: Yeah. All right. So we'll continue on here. So God does not live in human temples. And then he goes on and says, he's not served by human hands as if he needed anything. There again, this whole idea of now he's kind of dismantling their sacrifice system, right? All the priests serving the god. He's like, no, God doesn't need anything. He's not served by human hands. 

J.R.: Well, I think you were saying earlier that the Greeks, their instincts were right, you know, that, that instinctive, urge to worship something higher than us. The instincts were right, but Paul is simply saying their method, you're going about this the wrong way. 

David: Yes. 

J.R.: Right. the temple. I understand your need to worship. I understand your desire to look up. But the idea of you building a temple and drawing the god or goddess into that temple, that's the wrong method. And so that's what he's kind of saying by that.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Don't build the temple, the [00:36:00] temple built by human hands. Again, it wasn't really a slam on what they're doing. He's simply saying your instincts are right, but your method is off base. 

David: Yeah. I see all the activity you're putting into this and then there's something right about that. It's pointing you in the right direction, but you're not there, basically, is what he's saying, which goes back to that initial statement: I see that you're very religious.

J.R.: I see you're religious. Yes, that's right. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: Yeah, you're on the right track. 

David: Yeah, so the next part, he goes in and he starts to unpack this, then. Verse 26, "From one man he made all the nations that they should inhabit the whole earth, and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." Now, man, there's a lot in those two verses right there. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: There's a lot to unpack, but we'll start out with how he ends it. He said, "God did this so people would seek [00:37:00] him, reach out for him, though he's not far from any of us." So, there's another idea here that Paul's, you know, he's following that thread. Look, you guys, you know, are a little bit off, but your instincts are right, right? I see you searching for God. He's not far away, but I'll tell you, He's not up in that temple, right? 

J.R.: Right. Yes, that's exactly right. 

David: Let's start to unpack this phrase here back in verse 26, that God made all the nations that they'd inhabit the whole earth. And he marked out their times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

J.R.: Yeah, we can tend to read over that and just say, well, okay, yeah, God laid out the earth, so to speak, right? But there's a lot more to that. 

David: There's a lot more to that, yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, so if we jump back to Deuteronomy chapter 32 in verses 8 and 9, it says, "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He divided mankind, He fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the [00:38:00] sons of God. But the Lord's portion is His people, Jacob, His allotted heritage." Now that's another verse that you could just kind of gloss over and you're like, well, okay, you know, what does all that mean? But, it actually ties into Exodus. It ties into, goes back to Genesis. So a lot's going on here. What does it mean when it says that he divided up mankind and he fixed the borders according to the number of the sons of God? That's the first key word. 

David: Now, Let me jump in there real quick, because if you read the NIV, it'll say "He fixed the borders according to the Sons of Israel." 

J.R.: Yeah. And why is that wrong? Not to stir the pot here, but why is that wrong? 

David: Well, for one, it makes no sense. He didn't fix all the borders of the nations according to the Sons of Israel. 

J.R.: Well, because there were no Sons of Israel. 

David: Well, there were no Sons of Israel at the time. And he allotted Israel for his people. [00:39:00]So, one of these lands, right? So, it's one of those interesting things that if you read your Bible and you says, well, you know, my verse 8 says, according to the sons of Israel. Well, the NIV and some other versions actually say that, but it doesn't make any sense. And it really is the sons of God. It's, right, the sons of Elohim, right? <Right.> Is that what it is? 

J.R.: Well, it also - yes, yeah, the Elohim - and but also in verse 9 it says the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob. It doesn't say Israel. Now, we all know that the tribe of Jacob is Israel. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: But again, it's interesting that you would use one term, the tribe of Jacob, in one verse, but then you would say according to the sons of God, the sons of Israel, in another place. <Yes.> Right, so it's like when he says Jacob, there's this understanding that Israel hasn't been formed as a nation yet, so we're not going to refer to them as Israel yet. It's Jacob. 

David: Right, right. 

J.R.: And so I don't see the reasoning in reading [00:40:00] the future back into the past of saying the number of the sons of God being the number of the sons of Israel.

David: Well, and the reason that they do that is because let's be honest, people didn't always know what to do with that phrase, "the sons of God, the sons of Elohim." 

J.R.: Right. And so that's problematic. 

David: Yeah. So go on and explain then what that phrase is really referring to in our opinion.

J.R.: Sons of God - right, in our opinion - and we didn't come up with this on our own. Michael Heiser has a great book talking about it. There's other books written about this. But the Sons of God, basically the idea is that it's lesser Elohim, lowercase g gods. <Right.> Right. Heavenly created creatures that were not angels, but lesser Elohim were allotted to act as administrators to other nations. Right, and we find out later, and this is where it ties into Psalms, is that they kind of failed in their calling. Because when we talk about Psalms 82, 

David: I think it's [00:41:00] 82, yes.

J.R.: Yeah, he addresses these lesser Elohim and kind of gets on to them about the fact that they have led their nations astray. And so when you tie those two verses together, it's pretty clear that we are talking about godly, lowercase g, godly deities that were created by God, but that were apportioned to all of the nations. And Yahweh took Israel as his own people. 

David: Right, right. And I think we did an episode on this on Psalm 82, and I'll put that link in the show notes. But yes, that's the picture that starts to emerge when you start to look at the Old Testament, that God had assigned these lower Elohim as watchers and administrators over different nations. And the idea was that they were to point people back toward Yahweh, right? That was their role. Which, that starts to tie in. Hopefully, that background, [00:42:00] you can start to see what Paul is saying here, then, in his message. Now, he actually says this, "God did this so they would seek Him and reach out for him." Well, that's explicitly what the Old Testament, or I shouldn't say explicitly, I should say Paul explicitly says what is inherent in the Old Testament, that God gave other nations these administrative deities in order to point them back to God. But they didn't do that. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And that's where things fall apart, right?

J.R.: Yeah, and I think this clarifies Paul's theology that that's the way he understood. 

David: Yeah, that's the way Paul saw this 

J.R.: Deuteronomy 32, right? I mean exactly kind of lays that out and I think it makes a pretty strong evidence that that's the way Paul understood it. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: We were talking also earlier. There's also kind of this reference here to the idea of the city versus the land like there's this negative implication to the city throughout the Old Testament. That [00:43:00]Cain went and built a city and the tower of Babel was a tower built in the center of a city, right? And God's instructions to Noah were to, after the flood, to disperse, to spread out, to cover the earth. And, the city of Babel or Babylon being created was sort of pushing against that, right?

 And so he told Joshua to inhabit the Promised Land, right? To inhabit the land, not build a city in the promised land, but to go inhabit the land. And so the language there is kind of intentional. Don't build a city, a place of self reliance. And this is not a judgment against modern cities or anything like that, but it's saying as an image, don't try to build this place of self reliance, build a community that understands that we can't control everything, right? That we shouldn't try to recreate Eden. That's the association between the city and the land. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: And that's what I think that ties into what he's saying. And that ties right into the next verse, verse 28, where it says, "For in him, we live and move and have our being." Right? Not in ourselves, not in what [00:44:00] we've created, not in the, not in the walls, not in the city. It's in him that we move. And that's why we're to move into the land. And there you go. that's my opinion for why we should all live in the country. <Oh, okay.> Right? Get a four wheeler. Yeah, get four wheelers. 

David: I don't know. Does that mean I am 

J.R.: It forces us to rely on him a little bit, right?

David: Well, I guess I'm still have one foot in pagan culture because I live in a city, and there's something about being around, you know, everything the city offers that I still like, but ...

J.R.: Yeah, you need to reconsider, man. <Okay, okay.> Actually, I'm in the city, too, so I don't know what to tell you. No, again, it isn't the it's, yeah, it's the imagery that is placed, and you do see it. I mean, there's really, I can't think of any positive reference to a city in the Bible. I'll have to think about that. 

David: Yeah, in the Bible, there's definitely a negative connotation to big urban areas. that really not a lot of good happens there. And in fact, you think, well, what about Revelation? You know, isn't the holy [00:45:00] city of Jerusalem? But that's kind of redeeming of everything that's gone wrong of these cities, right?

J.R.: Right. And Revelation will be the final city that actually is the correct orientation <right> that we should have toward God. It's not self reliance. <Right.> That's why some people talk about the, you know, you notice it in Revelation, it talks about, I forget the dimensions, but it talks about the New Jerusalem, and it gives the measurements. And it's interesting that it's length and width, which makes sense, but that's also high, it's also the same measurement height. So it basically kind of describes this city as a cube, which you'd look at that and you're like, that doesn't even make sense. A cube shaped city?

David: Yeah. You look at the dimensions, you go, well, that's just a big box. 

J.R.: Right, but the imagery that it's painting is saying, no, this will be the completion. This is the, what, the third dimension to the self reliant city that we're actually now building up, right? We're not just spreading out, we're building up toward God and it's that [00:46:00] joining of heaven and earth that the new Jerusalem represents. But you're right. Otherwise , in the Bible, the city has a pretty negative connotation.

David: Right. We could run down that trail, but we need to get back on track here. But I think what you're saying is, there's all this going on behind the scenes. And of course, Paul is sitting in one of the cities that probably had the largest cultural impact of maybe any city ever, right?

J.R.: Right. Exactly.

David: So he's sitting in Athens saying this with all of this background going on. Now before we go to the next verse that you just alluded to, I want to hit on one more thing to bring this full circle. So we have this idea from Deuteronomy 32, that God had allotted administrative deities over different lands and nations, right? <Right.> Now, this is something, too, that Greeks believed as well, okay? So this idea would not have been lost on them, that, well, sure, you know, because if we go over to Rome, they have Jupiter, [00:47:00] right? <Right.> As their deity. Well, that's their deity. If you go over to Egypt, they have, what, Horus or Ra, right? <Right.> So they have their deity. So this was not a foreign idea to the Greeks that Paul's saying, look, God allotted the nations, which would have insinuated that all of these different nations had their own deities watching out for them. 

J.R.: Right, and we just talked about this earlier. All these little towns in Greece had a temple to a primary god or goddess.

David: Right, yeah. So one of the things that I think, and this is going to be, don't misunderstand this. This may be controversial here, all right? But ...

J.R.: All right, this is good. 

David: In some ways, Paul is actually, I think, giving a nod to Zeus, only - let me say this clearly - only what he's saying is whatever deity that became Zeus went haywire just like all the other deities did. Because [00:48:00] they were never supposed to accept worship for themselves. They were supposed to point you to Yahweh, and that's what I'm trying to point out to you today. 

I don't think it's a stretch to say, - real quick - I don't think it's a stretch to say that Paul actually gives a nod to that and acknowledges it. 

J.R.: Right. And we've said this before, that mythology acknowledges the limitations. Gods are not these wonderful deities that are all good. I mean, man, they're a mess. They're up and down. And so it's almost like, you know, that the Greeks were fully aware of god's throwing temper tantrums and god's not acting godly, right? 

David: Right. 

J.R.: And so there's already something kind of implicit in their theology that says, yeah, our gods are a bit of a mess. So they can be petty and so, so yeah, it's almost like Paul's seeing that chink of the armor too, saying, you know, yeah, these gods that were over your nations, they went sideways. They Didn't do what they were supposed to do.

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: And they [00:49:00] were supposed to point you to Yahweh. And no, I think, I don't see anything wrong really with that statement. I understand where you're coming from. But yeah, it's almost like a nod, like these gods that you serve by your own stories. They're a little nuts, and can we all agree that they didn't embody, right? 

David: That's a good way to put it, like, hey, I think we can all agree, you know, that even your god Zeus and the Olympic gods, look, let's be honest, you know, they're not paradigms of virtue, which is why I think we talked about this. 

J.R.: We've fallen short here. 

David: A couple episodes or maybe last episode, which is why Greek philosophy starts to flourish, right? Because Greek religion wasn't cutting it. 

J.R.: Right. Because that, hierarchy of truth failed, right? In some way. <Right.> So they had to layer philosophy on top of that, <Right.> to make sense of it.

David: So, yeah. So again, like you can almost see Paul pushing them up the hierarchy, you know, look, we all know that your gods are a mess, right? I get the whole sacrificial thing, the [00:50:00]temples. I get it, but we can all admit it's a mess. That's why you Stoic philosophers are here, right? That's the gap you're trying to fill. Well, I'm telling you there's something higher than this. Let me pull it all together for you. I think that's what Paul's really doing here.

J.R.: Yeah, no, I think you're exactly right. And it's what we've talked about before. Paul's goal of overlaying the culture, right? <Yeah.> And that's why, well, in these next verses, it says, "For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said." Right, he's given a nod to their local poets. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: "As some of your own poets have said, we are his offspring." Right, so what poets are they talking about there? Or what poets is Paul referencing? 

David: Yeah, there's people who have tried to identify who these are. I think the first one is a philosopher, Epimenides, from Crete. So that would have been, you know, part of Greece. And then the second is a Stoic philosopher, actually. Aretas? Or Aretas? I may be butchering that. [00:51:00]But he's a Stoic philosopher. So he mentions a Cretan philosopher and he mentions a Stoic philosopher. 

J.R.: The point being that , even if we don't have that right, the point is that he's giving a nod to their local poets saying, yeah, look, , your poets are already recognizing this, right?

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: And again, he's trying to - that attempt of overlaying the culture. We talked about it in the Philippians episode, go back and listen to that one. But this idea of overlaying the culture that that's what he's trying to do. And that's been a real light bulb moment for me when we talked about that it's because you see it all through the Old and New Testament. Of when you have this kind of misunderstanding of what, I wonder what this means, or I wonder what this is referring to, a lot of times that can be answered partly by recognizing that Paul and other Old and New Testament writers are trying to overlay the existing culture, overlay paganism, overlay mythology with this new reality, right? This new theology. 

David: Yeah, and it's easy to pick out [00:52:00] places where Paul says Look, knock off this pagan practice. But it's much more subtle and easy to miss all the places where Paul does what he's doing here, which is actually connecting their system - he's trying to connect it to the bigger hierarchy, right?

J.R.: Yeah, exactly. 

David: And he's affirming. He's like, look, you guys are on the right track. Your instincts are right. You know, these are things we keep saying because I think that's exactly what Paul's saying, right? He's trying to point them in the right direction. All right, to wrap things up here, Paul says we'll skip ahead to verse 31. So Paul says, "For God has set a day where he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he has given proof to this to everyone by raising him from the dead." now, of course, the man is Jesus. So let me walk through what I think is going on here and something that I think is easy for us to miss from our perspective with this verse that we just went through. And then you can tell me whether or not you agree. So this whole idea of he's given proof of this to [00:53:00] everyone by raising him from the dead. I think sometimes we can confuse the truth with the proof, right? Now, here's what I mean by that I think we have a tendency, or we can read this message by Paul to the Areopagus. And this last verse says, "And he's given proof by raising Jesus from the dead." And we can read that and go, okay, finally, Paul got to the main point, right?

<Right.> Because that's a lot of what we hear in our churches. Finally, they got to the point where Jesus is raised from the dead, and now he's going to give all this evidence as to why they should believe that, right? <Right.> I think that's what we would have a tendency to do today in our rational, scientific worldview. But that's not what Paul does, right? Paul lays out his entire narrative. And he says this is what's true. And then as evidence of that, he says, Oh, and by the way, the proof of this is that he raised Jesus from the dead. [00:54:00] <Right.> Right? Now, at this point, we might expect Paul to go on to this long narrative of why they should believe that he raised Jesus from the dead. But he doesn't do that. 

J.R.: He kind of, he ends with that. 

David: Right. He ends with that. In other words, that is the proof. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: The proof is that Jesus is raised from the dead. And it's almost as if Paul said, Now, look, you can take that or leave that. And in fact, the next verse or two, it says, well, some wanted to hear more, but others sneered at it and said, nah. You know, I'm not buying that anymore. <Right.> But I just think it's interesting, this idea of confusing the truth with the proof. And sometimes we get that backwards, we spend a lot of time trying to prove something, you know, something like the resurrection of Jesus. And of course, that's a central tenet of our faith. We do believe that. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: But if we don't connect it to the larger, more compelling narrative, then I'm not sure we're really gonna reach people. I guess that's what I'm saying. 

J.R.: [00:55:00] Right. No, I understand what you're saying. Yes, we use the word proof and truth interchangeably. Like they're the same thing. 

David: Yeah, yeah.

J.R.: And we're seeing here that there's actually a difference. There is the truth, but then there's also the proof in a narrative sense. This is the narrative proof that I'm giving you that points to the truth. Does that make any sense? I don't know, that may be confusing it more.

David: Yeah, I just think we have a tendency, and I know I've done this, I'll speak personally, like, we can read through this Areopagus message and not really know what Paul's getting at. And then go, okay, finally, he gets to the resurrection of Jesus. But I think what we've shown today is that what Paul's actually done is, the narrative throughout this whole talk that he's given has all these points of contact with their culture, right?

We've talked about Right temples made by human hands. We've talked about the monument to the Unknown God. We talked about this idea of God apportioning the nations and what that has [00:56:00] implied in it. So that's been the narrative that's the truth that Paul is laying out. And then at the very end he says, Oh, and by the way, the proof of this is that he raised Jesus from the dead. And that's it, you know, <Yeah, yeah.> Mic drop. <Seems to> Thank you everyone for coming. Let me know if you have any questions, right? 

J.R.: Right. And if you don't know what you're looking for, that falls flat. 

David: Yeah. If you don't recognize all that other stuff, you just, you think, well, Paul got to the main point and then he just stopped, right? 

J.R.: Right, yes. 

David: Because that's what we're used to. So I think that's, what's going on here.

So, one example might help, I just served on a jury. It was the first time I had jury duty. It's the first time I've ever had jury duty. , that was an experience in and of itself. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there's some good stories there. 

David: Yeah, there's a lot of good stories there that I'm sure will come out in future episodes. But one of the things that was fascinating to watch is that The prosecution did a good job of laying out the story of their account of [00:57:00] what they think happened on this particular night, right? <Okay.> It was a murder trial, by the way, so there was a lot of cool stuff going on. <Yeah.> So they laid out their account, right? <Mm hmm.> And that's what they opened with and that's what they closed with. In between, they had all kinds of pieces of evidence, right? Or proofs, we might say. <Right.> Now, the defense was left trying to poke holes in all of these little pieces of evidence or proofs. And what the defense was actually hoping is that you would lose the larger narrative and start focusing on all the little pieces of evidence right? <Yeah.> Because I can poke a hole in this. I can poke a hole in that. I can call this into question. I can leave you with a little doubt over here. And the hope was ...

J.R.: Sure, which is what a good defense lawyer does. 

David: Right, and the hope is that you lose the larger narrative by focusing on all these little points of proof and how they might not add up. But I found myself backing up [00:58:00] and thinking, oh wait a minute, this might be true, and that might be true, and might have a point here, and all that. But when you add it all together, the prosecution still presented a better story of what appears to have actually happened that night. 

J.R.: Okay. No, that's a good way of putting it.

David: Yeah. So does that make sense? The idea between, you know, the narrative, the truth and the proof? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have the story, you have the truth, what we would call the truth, what actually happened that night or whatever in that case. And then you've got all these proofs back and forth for the defense and for the, prosecution that may or may not be exactly accurate. And if you're the defense, you actually want to get somebody to focus on those possible inaccuracies, the possible way that the evidence was handled or the possible other motives.

David: They don't actually have to - the defense, and this is something they said - they don't actually have to prove anything. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. You know, because the burden of [00:59:00] proof is on the prosecution. <Yeah, yeah.> But as a defense lawyer you want to - a good defense lawyer will not merely try to poke holes in the prosecution, a good defense lawyer will come up with an alternative narrative of why it didn't, yeah, of why the police were wrong or why the arrest or the prosecution was misunderstanding the situation, right? <Yeah.> They have to come up with a different narrative. No, that is actually a pretty helpful way to parse that out because it can be, you're right, , we do kind of make it too simplistic of saying, well, proof and truth. That's the same thing. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And that's not exactly right. You know, there is the truth, but the proof of Paul's final statement is in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. That's why he stopped with that. It's like him saying the defense rests. 

David: Yeah.

J.R.: Now, which narrative makes more sense, which narrative is going to be more helpful in life, which narrative , is going to push you closer to the truth - our [01:00:00] imperfect ability to view the truth, which narrative is going to draw you closer to that.

David: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right, where, again, from our standpoint, we spend a lot of time trying to get into the factfulness and the authenticity of the proofs. And sometimes I just think we forget to tell the story. And I think that's one of my takeaways here. Is that's what Paul actually does a very good job, when you understand the story that Paul is telling. Why he didn't feel the need to go into a two hour lecture about the authenticity of the resurrection. Which is, you know, again, very important. But for Paul, I like what you said, you know, okay, the proof is Jesus raised from the dead. The defense rests, right? Which story makes more sense? And that was it for Paul, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's just important to say that both groups had the Greeks had their own narrative as well. And again, proof in the sense that we, think of it as is not the way to think about it. It's, they have their [01:01:00] own narrative that explains reality and Paul just adds to that. I like your case, your murder case example, because that is helpful. 

Because there's actually what happened, but then there's also the, you know, just the little evidence. And every time somebody comes up with a little evidence of here's this blood test or here's this or that, the defense is going to try to poke holes in that specific thing. And it's almost like Paul doesn't go into details because that's not the point of it. 

David: Yeah, I think that's right. 

J.R.: That, if you get too granular in your explanation of the resurrection of Jesus, then all you're doing is opening opportunities for opposing view to get granular on trying to poke holes in that. And that's not the point of what , what either, what really either side is doing here. 

David: Right. Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay. No, that's actually a little helpful. I don't know if it'll, I don't know if that helps clear things up or if it just muddies the waters worse. But we'll go with that.

David: Yeah. Yeah. We'll go with that. 

J.R.: Yeah, so Paul is again. He's not trying to dismantle their pagan beliefs. He's actually [01:02:00]saying that their pagan beliefs are actually pointing them the right direction. But , they just don't have the final what, the final answer yet. They don't have that upper layer of truth in that hierarchy that we were talking about.

David: Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, when they had, I guess one thing you said, he wasn't trying to dismantle their pagan beliefs, is ultimately, I think what Paul's saying is, look, , when you understand the full picture, you will let go of some of these lower level practices and beliefs. <Right.> Because he goes around to all cities and says, hey, knock this off, stop doing that. But here in Athens, it's really interesting because, yeah, I think you're right. He's playing so much off of their current experience than what we read on a surface level reading of this message here that Paul gives in Athens. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. He's pointing them, aiming them up the hierarchy.

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: All right, how was all [01:03:00] this received? So verse 32 says, "When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, 'We want to hear you again on this subject.'" And then Paul left the council. It's just funny, it says, and then he just left, you know? So some of them were obviously like, okay, the resurrection of the dead, wait, you saw the son of God walking around. So some of it, you know, some of it, that was a hard pill to swallow for them. But others were like, no, you're making sense. You're connecting the dots now, right? So the very last verse in Acts 17 says, "Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed them. Among them was Dionysius. He was a member of the Areopagus." So one of the very members believed Paul. "And also a woman named Damaris, and a number of other people." So Paul actually did get believers there in Athens. But then he left, and he literally leaves, because we actually don't see him in Athens again.

J.R.: Yeah, so no you know, no follow up. Some of them wanted to [01:04:00] hear him again, and I guess we don't ever get that round two, do we? 

David: No, I don't think so, because I think - well, let's check it out here in Acts, at least in the narrative, after this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. So, that's kind of it. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

J.R.: There you go. Well, that's a bit of a letdown. 

David: Yeah. I hope that we've been able to bring out , a lot of the ways in this message that Paul is actually starting where they are at. And he's trying to move them up this hierarchy of truth. Your instincts are right, you know, you're doing a lot of the right things. You just need to kind of aim it at the right thing, which is Yahweh. And I'm gonna fill the story in for you here. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, and it doesn't, exactly explain if, there was a follow up. But at the end of the day, there's a couple converts that come out of. One of them, Dionysius, who is actually named after a Greek god, which is interesting, you know, that here's this guy that's so steeped in, in Greek mythology that his parents gave him the name of a Greek god. And yeah, [01:05:00] and now he's following Yahweh, you know, following Paul, and ultimately following Yahweh out of this interaction. 

David: Yeah, so to wrap this up, then, what does it mean, then, that, you know, Paul says the gospel is true? I'm going to tell you the truth. And from last episode and this episode, I think we're pushing against this notion that truth equals scientific proof and facts that can be validated, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: So we're kind of pushing against that. 

J.R.: One of the things we said last episode, I haven't said this again, but the idea of, we believe in objective truth, right? And so long as we understand that we'll always see it subjectively, right? 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: You know, that, that we talked about that last week and we don't have to go all into it again, but there is an objective truth, but we're always going to see it subjectively. And since we see it subjectively in a way, it's very difficult, when you try to get in this idea of truth being able to be proven or disproven, right,?

David: Right. 

J.R.: There is the objective truth out there, but we're [01:06:00] always going to filter it through our objective reality. And so it's never going to be seen accurately. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so what Paul is kind of doing is saying that this truth claim that he's making, he's tying in the narrative, his narrative, and he's adding it to the Greek narrative. And he's actually trying to aim them to a greater understanding of the truth. And yes, we get hung up with, well, what did he prove there? You know, how did he prove that Jesus came back from the dead? But again, he's using narrative to properly describe reality and the world, and that narrative was enough to get a couple converts in that conversation. 

David: Right. I said last episode that, one of the definitions of truth that I was starting to embrace was this idea of truth is that which describes reality. It's that which is correlated closest to reality. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And I think we fall in the trap of thinking that that means scientific proof. But what Paul has done here, he's actually told a story. [01:07:00] He's told the narrative that corresponds to reality better than what their myths are doing and <Exactly.> I think it goes back to that statue of the unknown God. Paul started to see holes in their narrative, and everything we talked about from the philosophers saying, Well, look, belief in God doesn't make people better, so we have to bring philosophy in. They had this statue of the Unknown God. And Paul starts to see all those holes, and Paul's saying, I've got a better narrative for you. And for Paul, that was proof. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Right? And the invitation was to say almost try this out and see if it doesn't work better for you. See if it doesn't plug some of these holes. And by the way, it's backed by this proof, you know, that God's son rose from the dead. But look, here's the story I'm trying to tell you. I think that's really what Paul's trying to do here, if that makes sense. 

J.R.: I think I, no, I think you're dead on. It bothers us today because we feel [01:08:00] like, I don't know, you might have this tinge of saying, man, you're kind of given a squishy definition of the truth. I don't like that. You know, we like it to be, we like absolutes. But I don't think that Paul is trying to explain the resurrection or his theology in these absolute provable terms, scientifically rational terms. That's not what he's trying to do. He's trying to weave a narrative that actually weaves into their existing narrative and he's wanting to pull it up higher. He's wanting to point it to something higher. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And he starts there, and he knows that over time, this is ultimately, their going to be pointed to Yahweh. You know, stay at it. You know, you're on the right path. Keep going with your going. But let's just layer this new truth claim, this new reality on top of this. You don't have to be stuck in this Unknown God mystery, right? We can put this reality on top of it and let's see where this takes you. Let's see how you can navigate the world now with this new information. 

David: And one of the reasons I think that the Roman [01:09:00] Empire was so receptive over time, not initially, to Christianity is because they had this gap between their religion and philosophy. And Christianity comes along and brings all this together, right? Paul has the narrative that brings all this together. And look, the proof, if you want to use that word again, is over the next 300 years, Christianity would take over the empire and paganism collapsed. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Which is proof, if you want to look at it that way, that Paul's narrative corresponded better to reality, right? It was closer to the truth than what they had been living in for the past thousand years. 

J.R.: Right. Well, the truth is in history. I mean ... 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: No, I think that's an interesting way of thinking about it. Well, paganism collapsed. So what happened there? It was an imperfect narrative of reality that was no longer helpful once the truth of Christianity came along and undermined all that.

David: Yeah, yeah. [01:10:00] I also think, and I'll get your last thoughts as well, but I guess to wrap this up, you know, I also think of, again, some people might say this is squishy. But, you know, truth is a destination that keeps us seeking. I think I said that last episode. <Yeah.> I think some of the mistakes we make sometimes is we think that, we are taught, I should say, that salvation is believing the right things. If I believe A, B, C, and D, right, then I'm saved. And it's a set of propositional statements. And if we believe those things, then we're saved. Well, there's a problem with that. Is that our beliefs evolve and mature over time. Because, I'll be honest, I look back at, you know, what I believed 30 years ago, and man, what I believe today is different.

Now, I don't believe that I wasn't a Christian back then, for goodness sakes. But I just believe that, you know, my faith has matured. So I think [01:11:00] it helps sometimes to step away from this idea. And look, there are things you have to believe - the Bible teaches that. But , you know, salvation as a set of propositions that we have to sign on to, right? And I just think it's a little different from that. And I like to more think of it as, a journey that we continue to go further and further, you know, maybe up the hierarchy. <Yeah.> And get closer and closer to that pinnacle. And, again, I don't know how all that resonates with you. 

J.R.: No, I think you're dead on. I like the way you put it. It's this idea, again, we like this idea of, Step 1, 2, 3. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: But man, most things, I mean, that's not the way marriage works. I can't give you steps to having a happy marriage. I can't give you step 1, 2, 3 on how to raise, you know, good kids. I mean, it, it, everything else in life has this kind of fluid nature to it, and it's not a direct line. It's a winding path. And I don't know, it's just that [01:12:00] idea of, I forget where I read this, but a phrase, something like, "Stop thinking that you can be right. And start simply trying to be less wrong," right? You know, you're not going to get it right. 

You're not going to, you know, what's the right way to raise my kids? Well, there's not really a right way. There are definitely some horribly wrong ways, but let's, just start working on the idea of being less wrong, you know, instead of being quote unquote, right. Because that ties into that absolute thinking, you know? And so this ties into that understanding of what I said about the subjective view of truth, that it's always going to be imperfect. Our view of the objective truth is always going to be subjectively understood and filtered. So it's going to be imperfect. And so we're going to do the best we can. And I'm not trying to paint this picture of relative truth. I'm not trying to make that argument. I am saying that we're just going to see truth imperfectly. And so we're going to do the best we can.

And let's just, instead of trying to say, okay, what is the right way? What is [01:13:00] step one, two, three, right? That's not the way to think about it. Let's just start working about the places that I'm obviously imperfect. The places where I'm way off the path. Let's start nudging myself back the other direction there. And what you end up is this winding path that kind of works its way up the hierarchy of truth that we're talking about. And over time, you know, maybe my lane will be a little bit narrower. Maybe I'll have the guardrails up a little bit tighter because of the mistakes I've made in the past I've learned. But, that's the way I think that life kind of lays itself out in reality when it comes to all of our relationships. So why wouldn't that reality hold true into my attempt to achieve salvation, you know? <Yeah.> Or work my way toward the holy? Maybe that's the way to say that.

David: And that's where grace comes in, too. I mean, that's where you see grace all throughout the New Testament is man, you know fail, stumble, you know? <Right.> Try things, mess up. 

J.R.: Yeah. Work [01:14:00] out your salvation. 

David: Yeah. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Right. But keep moving forward. Keep seeking truth. Keep seeking kind of the pinnacle you know, God's kingdom, Yahweh, Jesus, keep seeking that. And, you know, don't get so hung up on always having to be right. I think you'd said that earlier. And I like that. 

J.R.: Yeah. And, the idea that if you've got something in your life that you're saying, and I'm absolutely right about that. Let that be a red flag. 

David: Yeah, you're probably wrong. 

J.R.: You know that ought to be a big big red flag. Okay, let's, let's back off of this, you know, right? <Yeah.> A little bit. So don't be so certain. 

David: All right, so we figured out truth in two episodes like we promised. 

J.R.: Well, yeah, like we said it was a little bit squishy, but I think that's the way life works out. I mean, it does make sense that the hierarchy of truth as opposed to this one thing being true, you know what I mean? <Yeah, yeah.> Because again, and I don't want to rehash last episode, but I really was [01:15:00] I was helped by the idea of there is my personal truth. There is what I experience. But there's just layers of truth that trump that, you know? It's not the main thing, you know, and work your way up, right?

David: Yeah Yeah. And I would just end by saying, I hope that 10 years from now, I can look back at that hierarchy and go, boy, I was way off. But where I'm at now is so much better, you know, and that's okay. 

J.R.: Yeah, that'd be wonderful. Yeah. 

David: And maybe by then AI will know how to spell words. 

J.R.: Yeah. So is AI going to figure out truth for us? Just, yeah, just ask AI. 

David: That'll be in our Stranger Things episode. 

J.R.: Exactly. I just heard a podcast with somebody else. He's a, I forget the guy's name, but he's basically the pioneer of AI. And one of the things he said that they noticed is that AI will always give you an answer. Like you can say, who's going to win this game tomorrow? And AI won't say, well, I have no idea. You know, I can't look into the future and tell you who's going to win a game tomorrow. [01:16:00] It will give you an answer and it obviously many times it's wrong. But they're saying, he's saying that they don't quite understand that, that they actually have to figure that out. But one of the things that, one of the things that AI is doing over and over is giving you an absolute answer. Even if it's impossible to know. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: But anyway, I just thought that was interesting. 

David: It's kind of like that... 

J.R.: So no AI isn't going to establish truth for us anytime soon.

David: But it's kind of like your buddy who always has an answer for you and you know, half the time, you know, he's full of crap, but he always has an answer.

J.R.: AI is that guy. <Yeah.> Just roll your eyes and move on. 

David: AI is that guy. Yeah. All right. So where are we headed? Next series is going to be cool. I think if we can pull all this together, we're going to talk about, alright, the Mythic Stories of the Judges, and by the Judges we mean Judges in the Old Testament. 

J.R.: Yeah. The book of Judges and we are going to have judges that it outlines. Yeah, we've sat down and talked about this for a while and I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully we [01:17:00] can do it some justice here. 

David: Yeah. We had a lot of ideas. Hopefully we can bring those together and that should be a really cool series. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Thanks for tuning in. We always appreciate any likes or recommendations, you know, like us on whatever podcast app you're listening on. We have a Facebook group. You can join the discussion there or we have a Fanlist page. You can ask us questions there. Hey, you can buy us a cup of coffee there if you want.

J.R.: So yeah, there you go.

David: We're not going to turn that down.

J.R.: White chocolate mocha, please.

David: You're putting your order in already. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead All right, we will talk to you next episode. 

J.R.: All right. We'll see y'all.