Mythic Stories of the Judges: Deborah

Embark on a mythic journey through the Old Testament book of Judges with us! 📖✨ In this captivating new series, we delve into the heroic tales of the judges, who emerged as legendary figures during a tumultuous era in Israel's history. 🏹 We begin our study with the story of Deborah and Barak.🛡️ Join us as we unravel the mysteries of this unique book, nestled between the conquest of the Promised Land and the rise of the Israelite Monarchy. 👑 Explore the mythic themes woven into these ancient narratives and ponder their significance for our understanding of the Bible and faith. 🔍

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 6:35 Why Are These Stories Mythic?
• 19:40 The Story of Deborah
• 33:17 The Song of Deborah
• 43:19 The Mythic Themes in Deborah
• 53:54 The Stars Fought In Heaven

Transcript

Deborah

David: [00:00:00] So, you know, everything's defeated and, suddenly two microphones appear and Kenny and Dolly sing a song, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, it turns into a musical. I like it. 

David: Hey, thanks everyone for listening to the Navigating an Ancient Faith podcast. J.R., how's it going? 

J.R.: It's going pretty good, man. <Good.> Beautiful weather here. I've got the kayaks loaded up in the back of the truck.

David: Oh, yeah? 

J.R.: So in a couple hours. Yeah gonna hit the water You know, you take that for granted because it's pretty much any day of the year you have kayak weather. But yeah. 

David: It's beautiful weather here, too. 

J.R.: Yeah up here, we've been waiting for these days. So kayak's been packed up and we're heading out to the lake <Okay> in a little bit. So yeah, it'll be fun. 

David: Awesome. 

J.R.: Last time I took the kayaks out, I got a - get this: I had a park ranger come up in a boat and he asked if I had a life jacket and I was like, no, cause you know, I'm just in the kayak. It's like, no, you know, I don't have one in it. Next thing you know, he gives me a ticket and it was [00:01:00] like, 280 bucks. It was insane. Yeah, I mean, I easily could have bought several life jackets for the ticket that it cost me. So, yeah, so, Kelly, my daughter was with me and she was sitting there saying, I'm so sorry. I hate that this is going to ruin our whole day. And I'm like, no, it's not going to ruin my day. I'm going to go, you know, go to court, go to the judge and you know, see if he can drop this down which he did. But anyway, yeah, it was a whole crazy story with that, but ...

David: I have this mental image of this boat pulling up behind your kayak with lights on.

J.R.: Yeah. No, no, it wasn't that fun. 

David: And then he paddles up to you and is like, Alright, license for the kayak and all that. And then like, I'm going to have to run your license. And, you know, paddles back. So, it wasn't like that? 

J.R.: Yeah, no handcuffs. Nothing dramatic like that. In fact, when he gave me the ticket, I kind of laughed. And I said, Are you serious? I said, Man, that stinks to have to run around and give tickets like this all day because you know, you go home and you tell your family that I'm serving and [00:02:00] protecting and all these things. Really, you're just giving out insane tickets.

David: Buzzkill, Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. And I get it on a boat, you know, you get kids on a boat and you get drinking involved, stuff like that. You better have some better have life jackets. But on a kayak, I had no idea it required it. But, any boat. So if you get out in the kayak, don't forget. 

David: Alright. But you, <don't forget> you were able to talk the judge down, huh? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. I actually a kid that was in my Sunday school class was a bailiff. And so yeah, so anyways, he noticed that we were talking, and the judge asked me, he said Do you know the bailiff?" I said, yeah, he was in my Sunday School class. And the judge kinda laughed about that. And he asked me if I had bought a life jacket, which I had, and he asked for receipts and I said, no, I don't have any receipts. But the bailiff there, he lives right up the road from me. He'd be glad to come by tonight and verify in my garage that I've got a couple life jackets. So that kind of made it, yeah, lightened it up a little bit. And then the fact that I was a Sunday School teacher was kind of humorous that here I am in court. So yeah, it's, interesting situation. Have you ever been before a judge that you can talk about? 

David: No, [00:03:00] not well - so I mentioned last episode that I did jury duty. But that was my first time really being in a courtroom, sitting in front of a judge. And that was fascinating. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, it is super interesting. <Yeah.> After that experience, I told myself, man, if I get bored, and retired and don't have anything to do, I think I'll just come up to Traffic Court and sitting there and watch it. Yeah, watch the show, man. It is a show. Mine was uneventful. But some of these other people man, he was yelling and I'll tell him to sit down and putting people in jail It was the craziest thing. 

David: Yeah, speaking of judges, how's that for a a nice transition?

J.R.: We got our segway. 

David: We got our segway, Yes. Speaking of judges, we are going to start with a series that you and I are both really excited about. 

J.R.: Yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

David: And so we are going to look at the Mythic Stories of Judges. And by judges, we're talking about the Judges the book in the Old Testament, right? And this is going to be really [00:04:00]interesting because this is not something that you and I just started looking into a couple of weeks ago. In fact, I'm trying to remember I think it was last year even that you found this article. And you said, hey, take a look at this article. It sparked both of us to go back and start reading the book of Judges. And when you read the book of Judges, man, there's some crazy stuff going on. 

J.R.: Oh, man, it's wild. Yeah, I had no idea it was wild as it was. <Yeah.> And over the years, I've read the Samson story and the Gideon story. But when you kind of take Judges and just sit down and read it from start to finish, it is a roller coaster, man. It takes you on some really wild turns that you don't see coming.

David: Right. Yeah. I can remember some of the stories from Sunday School and what I don't remember though is some of the later chapters of Judges being talked about in Sunday school. 

J.R.: Right. No spoiler alerts. But man, chapter 19 is just completely bananas. In fact, when I sat down to read it, I think I texted you and said, Oh my gosh, have you gotten to chapter 19? This is bonkers. 

David: Yeah. [00:05:00] We've had some conversations like that via text, you know, like, man, have you gotten to this part yet? What do - you know? I don't remember any flannel graphs about dismembered bodies and things like that. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. shipping body parts off to the 12 tribes. Yeah, no, we'll get there. It's, a wild ride though. 

David: Yeah, yeah. So we're excited about this. We're going to talk about four of the judges found in the Book of Judges. And really one more little thing before we jump in here is this is something that you and I have been talking about. We've been having, we have tons of, in fact, just as we came on you were saying, man, I got tons of notes everywhere, right? 

J.R.: Oh, yeah. It's kind of scattered all over the place. 

David: So we got outlines and I'm making notes and it's something that we might do more with. And I just say that to say, if you're listening to this and you think, man throughout this whole series, man, this is really cool, or I've never thought of things this way, email us, or drop us a comment and let us know. Because if we get some good feedback, we actually might have some plans to do something more with this, but that's still in the works, but. 

J.R.: Well, and, and when [00:06:00] you, again, when you sit down and read it, it's just, there's so many twists and turns. It's hard to wrap your head around what the purpose of Judges is. <Yeah> And that's what we're going to kind of get in today as kind of an introduction. But it does not read like other books of the Bible. <Right.> We'll put it that way. 

David: And in fact, when you start looking at what other commentaries, how they handle the book of Judges, you almost get this sense of, I don't really know how to handle it. But here's the stories and here's what's going on, you know? So you kind of get that sense, even reading commentaries or other books that talks about the book of Judges, you know? 

J.R.: Well, you said, you mentioned mythic stories. Why did you go there? 

David: Yeah. So two aspects of this we'll cover, but yeah, let's, talk about the mythic aspect here. It's a pattern that I noticed reading the, oddly enough, reading The Odyssey, okay?

J.R.: Oh, here we go again. 

David: Yes, yeah. So, one of the things I noticed when I was reading The Odyssey is that there are a lot [00:07:00] of characters from The Iliad, from the Trojan War, to refresh memories if you're not familiar with The Odyssey, but The Odyssey takes place after the Trojan War and it's Odysseus's 10 year journey back home. But that's not the only story of the heroes of the Trojan War who make their way home after the Trojan War, right? And this whole era in Greek thought kind of becomes the age of heroes. And so you have a pattern there where you have something as civilization altering as the Trojan War. Where you had two big superpowers, and this was a ten year engagement, and cost countless lives, all kinds of mythic stories come out of it, and even the stories of the heroes who survive and make their way home. There's all these mythic stories attached to them, right? 

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: And so I noticed this pattern, that what happens is you have the Trojan War, and then you have The Odyssey, as Odysseus makes his way back home. And then you [00:08:00] have this age of heroes all throughout Greece and other regions in that part. Also, as kind of a precursor to what you might say the democracy of Athens, right? Because about 500 years later philosophers come in and they start to establish what we think of as Athenian democracy.

J.R.: Right. 

David: Okay, so why do I say all that? Well, you see the same pattern then happening in the Bible, because what has just happened before the book of Judges? 

J.R.: They entered the promised land, right? 

David: Yeah, they entered the promised land. 

J.R.: Exodus, put off slavery and enter the promised land. 

David: Yeah, so it's this big transformation of these people, the Israelites, they conquer the promised land, and actually the book of Joshua has a pretty optimistic outlook that, you know, hey, we did it, right? We conquered the Promised Land. 

J.R.: Yeah. <But then you> Mission accomplished. 

David: Yeah. Mission accomplished. But then you get to the Book of Judges and boy, it's an entirely different tone. 

J.R.: Yeah. It all falls apart. It all falls pattern of over and over. They turn to [00:09:00] idols. they are in slavery again. They're captive again. Yeah, and you just see this pattern over and over. 

David: Yeah, yeah. So, the similar pattern that I saw is this idea of, okay, you have the conquest of Canaan, and then you have, after the war, after the taking of the Promised Land, you have this era of the Judges, and this era of the Judges is really almost this interim period that leads up to the monarchy, the Davidic monarchy.

J.R.: Right. 

David: Right? And so, in between, you have not really established law and order. You're post this major battle. <Mm hmm.> The Promised Land, and what it lends itself to is this era of heroes, is what you would see in Greek mythology. <Okay, yeah.> So individual people who have to go subdue the monsters, overthrow tyrants, continuing to fight for the freedom that was earned in this battle, but it's at a very individual level. 

J.R.: Yeah. Establishing law in a lawless time. 

David: Yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah. 

J.R.: I think about our American story, and it has this same pattern. You know, we break away from the British to establish kind of an early colonial government. And then that sort of interrupted by this period that leads up to the civil war. And that ushers in our modern era of government and the wild economic growth that we've had for the past 150 years or so, right? And so, but in the meantime, it's kind of this lawless idea of kind of like the Wild West from the United States. That you go out in the Wild West, all the Western movies, it's all about the lawlessness, it's about outsiders coming in and establishing law and you know, the gunslinger that comes in and frees the tyrant that's got the city held captive or the town held captive, right?

<Yeah.> And okay, so that's interesting because when you think of the idea of Judges, I think of, you know, the judge that let me off the life jacket charge, right? You know? <Yeah. Yeah.> But not really what we see, huh? 

David: Yeah. It's funny because we refer to them as judges. The book of [00:11:00] Judges refers to them as judges and yet no one really judges. 

J.R.: Right, that's the first thing you notice. 

David: Yeah, yeah. No one's really judging, you know, at least in terms of other places in the Old Testament Bible, when it refers to someone as a judge, they're actually sitting there listening to disputes, right? <Right.> You think of who was it, Moses? 

J.R.: Right, that had too many disputes to deal with, and so they kind of divided things up to make it easier. Right, yeah, he was actually passing judgement. 

David: He was acting as a judge, and he appoints other judges, even if that's not what they were called, but they are hearing the people's disputes and settling them and keeping the peace, so to speak, right? But you don't really see these heroes in the book of Judges actually judging. In fact, we're going to talk about Deborah today, and she's probably the closest one to someone who actually appears like they might be judging. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, it actually says that she was under a palm or something actually judging the people, but that's the only mention of it. Samson, Gideon, there's no [00:12:00] mention at all that they listened and, held court over the people in any way. 

David: Yeah, no sense of holding court, no sense of here's the laws we're trying to enforce, here's my verdict. You know, their verdicts are pretty violent. 

J.R.: Right, right, So when you think of judges, I guess you wouldn't think of a modern judge with the robe and things like that behind the bench, or even like Moses, but more like God raising up individuals to pass judgment on the nation of Israel.

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: In kind of this dramatic way, right? 

David: Yeah, and that kind of fits the model of the hero, also, right? <Right, right.> That there's an individual that is going to pass judgment on the evils that are happening around them. 

J.R.: You could almost say more like divine judgment.

David: Yeah. Executing God's judgment. 

J.R.: Executing divine judgment. Yes. Okay. 

David: And there's this interesting idea of judging in the Old Testament that I really have come to appreciate is it's the restoration of order, right? So, I think what Judges, what [00:13:00] it's really getting at here is they are people who restore a measure of order to what has become a chaotic place. Right? <Yeah.> And in fact, that's the definition of justice in the Old Testament really behind that is this idea of restoration of order, restoring things to the way God intended them to be. 

J.R.: Yeah. And so you see this archetypal pattern emerge. <Yeah.> And so it's funny because I counted. There's a line at the beginning of Judges. And it says, "And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord." Right? And that, phrase is used seven times, exact same phrase, it's used seven times through the book of Judges. "And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord." And then they go on with the story. And so you see this archetypal pattern of chaos, people doing evil, and the judges come in to kind of restore some kind of order to that chaos. So that holds well with the pattern. 

David: Yeah, So, that's why we called this series, The Mythic Stories of the Judges.

J.R.: Well, there's other ideas it's not only [00:14:00] that that ties it into this kind of mythical narrative, or mythical literature. There's heroic figures, there's supernatural events. There's these archetypal characters. There's epic battles. The characters and judges kind of embody these archetypal roles and traits that you find in mythological stories. There's heroic warriors, there's strategists, there's wise leaders, there's villains whose actions and motivations kind of reflect the timeless themes of good versus evil. You know, loyalty versus betrayal. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Redemption, all those themes you find all through the mythological stories and you see it so clearly in Judges when you sit down and read it. 

David: Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that fits really well with what we're calling the series is that it's roughly the same time period that all these other heroic stories are happening.

J.R.: Yeah, that's interesting. 

David: Which is interesting, because you almost get the idea that, look, the Middle East, however civilizations were developing, everyone was kind of in this stage where there wasn't really established laws [00:15:00] and strong rulers yet. But there were these chaotic events that had just taken place. And so, all around the region, you hear stories pop up of heroes who do just what we've been talking about. They establish order from chaos. They take on little pockets of chaos and re-establish order, right? <Right, right.> So that's why it fits so well. 

One more thing I'll say about this, and we said we weren't going to do these disclaimers, but there may be some questions about, you know, well, are you saying they're myth? All right. Are you comparing them to the Greek myths? And we've talked about this tension before, so I'm just going to do this right up front, is to say, look, if you've listened to this podcast long enough, you know that we talk about two tensions, two extremes. One is you take the Bible and read everything literally, right? So you look at the book of Judges, and you try to establish timelines, and you try to prove why this thing happened exactly as the Bible said. And then you have the other extreme, and it's common in [00:16:00]academia. In fact, you and I both, I think, encountered this when we were studying for Judges, is the, Oh, this looks similar to the Odyssey, or this looks similar to the story of Hercules. And so, all they did was borrow the story, and made it their own. <Right. Right.> And what we're saying, what Navigating An Ancient Faith is all about, is understanding the historical context. What we're saying is, we kind of don't ascribe to either of those. There's a different way that the ancients would have read these stories. So, we're not denying the historicity of it, but there's a better way to read these stories, is what we're saying. 

J.R.: Well, it's like, it's, it's, like the the Odyssey is these are tied to historic events and they didn't know that for a long time. I mean, it's, relatively recently that they really understood and said, oh, no, the Trojan Wars really did happen and here's where these things took place. And so some of the characters, the heroes that the Odyssey mentions may or may not have been literal. They could be fictitious characters, but what they do is they embody [00:17:00] the idea, the, progression of a country, the progression of a culture. And so they're trying to capture that in the narrative while attaching it to historic ideas.

So, yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I know we always feel like we've stepped into this uncomfortable territory when we're implying that the Bible is merely symbolic. But the Bible isn't merely anything. Like if you listen to any of our episodes, right, you can see that we take it very seriously , and to say that the Bible is, any one thing is an obvious mistake. There's poetry, there's music, there's history, there's parables, right? There's biographies all through its pages. Yeah. And the flip side is if you insist that the stories in the Old Testament, especially are only meant to be read literally, then I think you kind of intentionally blind yourself to some deeper meanings, you know, and there's lots of it.

We're going to have lots of examples, but when you miss the numbers, when you miss the symbols, I think you gloss right over a really, really deep meaning. I'll give you an example in the story of Samson and we'll obviously cover [00:18:00] this later. At the beginning of it, he kills 30 of the Philistines, and then he steals their clothes, and then he captures what, 300 foxes and sets their fields on fire. And then he finally, he kills 3,000 bringing down the temple on himself. Right? So there's this obvious progression of three to 300 to 3,000 that invites the reader to ask why, right?

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: And you know, if I told you last night that I ate 30 chicken wings, you would look at me and say, Oh dude, I bet you're sick, right? You know, but then if I followed up and I'd said, yeah, then the next night I ate 300 hot dogs. And then the following night I ate 3,000 hamburgers. Like you wouldn't even ask if I was serious. Your mind would immediately shift into what I was telling the story, it would shift and trying to figure out what I'm actually trying to say with such an outlandish story, right? 

David: You know, like call a doctor. Is that? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, right. No, but yeah, my point is that you wouldn't think, wait a second.. Did you literally eat 3,000 hamburgers? You wouldn't, you would know better, but you would say, okay, What [00:19:00] is he trying to say? What's he meaning by this obvious progression? And I think we're meant to do the same thing in the book of Judges. 

David: Yeah, I agree.

J.R.: I think it's one of the clearest invitations in the Bible to dig and pull out meaning because it's so obviously there.

David: Yeah, we're going to get to a lot of examples of that, but I think one of the things you see in Judges is more so than, say 1 and 2 Kings and Chronicles, which is actually the name Chronicle. It's actually trying to chronicle events of the monarchy, right? <Right, yeah, right.> That there's something bigger happening in Judges than just a chronicle of what happened between Joshua and King Saul, right? <Right.> So, we're gonna try and unpack some of that. Alright, so, you ready to start talking about Deborah? 

J.R.: Okay, go for it.

David: Alright, when we meet Deborah in Judges chapter 4, and again, as you listen to these episodes, we encourage you to read Judges on your own as well. Some of you may be familiar with the stories of Deborah, Gideon, Sampson, but I'm just gonna tell the story [00:20:00] as I kind of read it in the book of Judges, right?

So, Judges chapter 4, we meet Deborah sitting under a palm and it happens to be the palm of Deborah, right? That's what the Bible says. <Aptly named.> Yeah, I assume it was named after she started sitting there and judging, not before. If I saw a palm on our travels that was called the palm of David, yeah, I might want to sit there to.

J.R.: Detour. Yeah, let's detour. Let's take a look at this. Let's get my picture next to the sign.

David: Yeah Judges chapter 4 then says Jabin the king of Canaan and he's reigning in Hazor and he is the thorn in the side of the Israelites at this time. And he has a commander who is the head of his army named Sisera. And we are told in no uncertain terms that Sisera has an army to be reckoned with. In fact, it says he had 900 chariots fitted with iron. And they had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for 20 years. Okay? So that's the stage we have. And [00:21:00] again, this is common in the book of Judges, is coming out of Joshua, we almost get this idea that, well, they conquered everyone, right? Well, Joshua gives hints that that's not quite the case, and then Judges very clearly states that that's not the case, right?

J.R.: Yeah, it's actually probably worth saying in Judges chapter 3 it says, "Now these are the nations that the Lord left to test Israel by them." That is, all in Israel who had not experienced all the wars in Canaan", right?

And in verse 2, it says, "It was only in order that the generations of the people of Israel might know war, to teach war to those who had not known it before." So Judges kind of starts out and says, Okay, we now have a generation who doesn't know war. That's interesting. And so it's making that clear. Yeah. <Yeah.> It's that quote, what is it? "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. <Oh, okay.> And weak men create hard times." Right? So you see this cycle that they're, that he's kind of, they're starting out. So telling you right away, Hey, this generation of the judges, none [00:22:00] of them knew war. None of them actually did the hard work to earn the promised land. And then just a few verses later, it says in verse five, it says, "So the people of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Pezzorites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites." And that aligns perfectly with Deuteronomy chapter seven, that those are the specific nations that God commanded to complete and total destruction, right? 

David: Yes, and they were not totally destroyed. 

J.R.: Oh, yeah, and it says they took daughters to themselves for their wives, and their daughters gave to their sons, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So that's the setup here. 

David: Yeah, yeah, that's the setup. <Right.> So we see Deborah judging under the palm of Deborah, and this is more in the southern part of Israel, and Jabin king of Canaan and Hazor, that's all up north. And so, Sisera and this imposing army, that's all happening up north. So, the story of Deborah is that she's sitting under a tree, and she's known as a very wise woman. We'll talk about the significance of her being a [00:23:00] woman also. <Sure.> So, she's known for being very wise, and she's known for being very in touch with God, right? So in her day to day duties as whatever, solving disputes, she has this insight from God, and God says, Deborah, I want you to tell Barak, who is the commander of that little region of Israel at the time, I want you to tell him that it's time to go take on Sisera. 

J.R.: Well, it actually and I think it plays into the fact that the woman thing. It actually says , "Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you go and gather your men?" She's giving him a question. In other words, she's saying you're not fulfilling your responsibility. She's actually kind of accusing him. At least that's the way I read it. 

David: Okay. Yeah. So, not only does Deborah have this insight, but maybe the implication is that Barak has kind of had this, as well. He just hasn't acted on it. 

J.R.: He hasn't acted on it, that's right.

David: Alright, so, Deborah summons Barak, [00:24:00] and she said, Hey, Barak, God has told me that it's time to take on Sisera. And Barak, to your point, Barak said, Yeah, I've sensed that too. But you can sense Barak's hesitancy, right? Because this is a formidable army up north. <Sure.> But Deborah says, God is with us.

So Barak's response is interesting because he says, I will take an army up north, but he said you have to come with me. Now, that's kind of interesting, like he's this military commander and he says to this woman, who sits under a palm tree and judges. He said, you have to come with me. <Right.> Now her response is interesting because she said, okay, Barak, I will go with you, but because of the course you're taking the honor will not be yours. The Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman. <Right.> Right? So, now that's an interesting response by Deborah, but keep that in mind, because that's going to play into the story. 

J.R.: Right. As if to say, if you won't man up, I will. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Right. And [00:25:00] there could be some double meanings there. We'll talk about that.

J.R.: Okay. 

David: So, , she has this conversation with Barak, and Barak says, yep, okay, I'll go. So she heads up north, and they arrive at Mount Tabor. So Barak's army, his small army sets up on Mount Tabor. He doesn't know what he's gonna do. At the valley beside Mount Tabor, there's a river called the Kishon River, and Sisera's army begins to gather, because he heard that Barak is coming. So his massive army gathers in the valley below Mount Tabor. <Right.> Right next to the Kishon River. And Barak has to be thinking to himself, Man, what in the world, how, how am I going to do this, right? 900 chariots, that's just the chariots. This looks like an invincible army. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And the way I picture it going down is, you know, he looks at Deborah, and Deborah gives him a glance to just say, you know, Patience. Remember, God said he was gonna do this. 

J.R.: Are you sure about this? 

David: Yeah. You sure we don't want to have a little prayer service again? [00:26:00] Get the latest update here from God, right? <Right.> But Barak looks over the hills, and he starts to see some dark clouds forming. Anywhere in Israel, you're not that far from the coast. <Right.> He starts to see some dark clouds forming, maybe off the ocean, and he's like, huh, that's interesting. Then he notices them getting closer. So while he's still trying to figure out, putting together his strategy, how he's going to do this. And Deborah's sitting there calmly. All of a sudden, he sees rain pouring over the hills.

J.R.: Mm hmm. 

David: And suddenly, he notices something. He notices that all the chariots down in the valley below, they start trying to maneuver to take some cover from this rain. But he notices the chariots start bogging down in the mud. 

J.R.: Sure. 

David: And then he notices the Kishon River starting to fill up rapidly and overflow. And so, what looked like this well organized army suddenly looks pretty chaotic down [00:27:00] there. 

J.R.: Sure. 

David: And Barak looks over at Deborah, and Deborah gives him a nod and says, Yep. Told ya. Go for it. Right? So, Now's your chance. Yeah, now's your chance. So instead of taking cover, Barak gathers the troops and says, Head to the valley, we're gonna take this army on. When he gets there, it's utter chaos. These chariots, everything that made this army invincible is now a huge liability. <Right.> The chariots can't move. The heavy armor is bogging them down in the mud. The river is overflowing, right? People are getting swept away. <Right.> And it's just a free for all, right? Barak attacks, and we would say it's just like shooting fish in a barrel. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: So, utter slaughter. It says the Israelites chased them as they tried to flee, as they panicked. Their horses are freaking out, you know. Everything's covered in mud. The chariots are worthless. And it's just a free for all, and Barak just goes to town, [00:28:00] right? <Right.>

So, in the midst of the chaos, the famed General Sisera, he does escape. Now, he escapes back to the camp, and the camp is in shambles by this time. Tents are probably blown away, the area's getting flooded, the Israelites are on their heels. And he sees a tent of someone who he knows is friendly to them. So, he goes to the tent of a guy named Heber and his wife Jael. Or if it's Jewish, it's probably Yael, but we'll say Jael here. 

J.R.: Yeah, we pronounce our J's in the West. 

David: Yes, we'll stick with that. So he sees their tent. Now, Heber, we're told, has been friendly with the king of Canaan. And so he thinks, alright, these guys are friends here, I'm gonna take cover in this tent. And Heber's not there, but Jael is there. And he's exhausted Jael can see it on his face. He says, I'm thirsty. And Jael suddenly has an idea. And we're not really told why this next little plot twist happens. But maybe [00:29:00] Jael's not been too thrilled with this alliance that her husband has with the Canaanite king. Maybe she's seen how brutally Sisera has treated the surrounding peoples. But Jael has her own ideas. And so she gives him a skin of milk, but If you do a little looking into it, it's kind of this fermented milk, so it's heavy. There's probably a little bit fermentation going on. The idea is you go right to sleep, right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Milk is not something you want after a heavy workout. <Yeah.> Dog tired. You don't say, man, give me a big glass of milk. 

David: Give me a huge glass of milk. Although your mom would tell you, you know, drink a warm glass of milk before you go to bed, which I don't know that I ever did that.

J.R.: I don't think I did either, but yeah, I guess there is an association with milk and putting you to sleep. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: And that kind of makes sense. 

David: Yeah. It's heavy, you know, so anyway, it has the intended effect. She gives him this milk and Sisera is out like a light. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And [00:30:00] Jael then looks around, it's chaos outside. And here's the commander of the army fast asleep in her tent. And she looks around and she sees these tent pegs and the hammers used to put the tent up. And again, don't mess with this woman, right? <Right.> She gets the idea that says, I can end this right now. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And she takes a tent peg, and she puts it up to his temple while he's fast asleep, and she swings the hammer. You know when you're hammering, and you get a nice, solid hit on a nail? 

J.R.: Right, yeah. 

David: As opposed to like ... 

J.R.: Almost sink it in, in one shot. 

David: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Yep, very satisfying. 

David: Yeah, opposed to like, glancing off the side and, you know, everything shakes and your hand hurts. <Yeah, right.> So, I gotta imagine that Jael had a nice, solid swing of the hammer.

J.R.: Yep, took a solid lick. 

David: And in one swing, he's fastened to the ground now. 

J.R.: Yeah, it says that it went completely through his temple all the way to the ground and went into the ground. So yeah, it's very clear [00:31:00] about that. 

David: Yep. And he is just like a tent affixed to the ground. And she sits there, maybe not even believing what she just did, and just the life drains out of his body.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And that's it. She killed the famed General Sisera. 

J.R.: Yep. 

David: And to wrap up the story then, it's chaos out, still in the camp. She looks around, the Israelites are at the camp now, and she sees Barak. And maybe by how he's dressed or something, she goes, here's the commander. And she says to Barak, " Hey, come here." What you're looking for might be inside." And he opens the tent and sees Sisera, the commander, spiked to the ground, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And he probably is thinking, okay, don't mess with this woman. 

J.R.: Yeah what do you do if you're Heber and you come home and you see that your wife has pulled this off? <Yeah.> I feel like for a long time it was like, yes, dear. There's a lot of yes, dear moments. [00:32:00] <Yeah.> Yep. I'll take care of that. 

David: Now he's thinking, honey, do we need to talk? You know, like, <Right.> Are you not as happy as maybe you could be in this relationship, right? 

J.R.: Yup. Exactly. 

David: Will you take the trash out? Yes, dear. Absolutely. 

J.R.: I sure will. Absolutely. You know, what else do you need done? 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. I got him in line, right? 

David: Yeah. We don't really know what happened to him, but that's the story of Deborah, right? And there's a lot going on in that story. 

J.R.: That's kind of it. Well, at the end of it, it also says that the Israelites, because of this pivot went and, took out Jabin, the King of Canaan also. <Yeah. Okay.> And that wasn't Sisera's army. That was who he was in an alliance with. 

David: Right. He was the king. 

J.R.: And so it kind of, it motivated this momentum to go ahead and take out the King of Canaan also. 

David: Yeah. And of course, his military commander and army has been wiped out, so might as well finish the job, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: So, that, yeah, that's the postscript. So, Jabin the King is also taken out as well. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And the Canaanite threat [00:33:00] is put to bed. And I think it even says that after that, Deborah had, there was peace in the land for 20 or 40 years. I can't remember which one it is, but it's one of those common patterns that we'll talk about more in future episodes as well.

J.R.: Yeah, 40 years of peace. 

David: 40 years of peace, okay. 

J.R.: After 20 years of captivity before. 

David: Yeah. Okay, so there's a lot going on in this story, and some of the conversations you and I have had is, you know, how do we pare this down to something manageable? <Right.> Because if you grew up in church, you probably heard this story. Maybe you didn't remember the details, and maybe even as I told the story, you're even thinking like, well, I don't remember some of those details. 

J.R.: Oh, I remember the tent peg. 

David: You remember the tent peg, yeah. 

J.R.: Heck yeah, every middle school kid did. 

David: Now that is something our Sunday school teachers talked about.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, they didn't hide that from us. I think they knew that that would get our attention. 

David: Yeah, maybe if you give them a little taste they'll read the rest of it. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right 

David: So that's Judges chapter 4. Now Judges chapter 5 This is where [00:34:00] we'll start talking about kind of pulling apart this story. Judges chapter 5 is the Song of Deborah. Now I admit that there were times past where I would see a chapter called the Song of Deborah and I would skip it, right? Let's get on to the next. Because it's always this weird, okay, Deborah sits there and kind of sings for a while. It's the song of Deborah and Barak, in fact, I think.

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm, picturing who is it? Dolly Parton and Islands in the Stream. 

David: Kenny Rogers. 

J.R.: Kenny Rogers, yeah, sure. So I picture Deborah and Barak sitting there kind of doing the little duet off of each other. I don't know who took the lead or whatever, but, you know. That's what I picture. 

David: Yeah, that's the image I just had in my mind as soon as you said that. So, you know, everything's defeated and, suddenly two microphones appear and Kenny and Dolly sing a song, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, it turns into a musical. I like it. 

David: Well, there's a lot of information in the Song of Deborah , that I want to pull out a couple of pieces of information because the Song of Deborah in Chapter [00:35:00] 5 actually fills in some of the details that you would miss if you just read chapter 4, and then did what I often do, which is just skip ahead to chapter 6. Right? <Right.> So, a couple of details in the story. One of the ways the song starts out in verse 4, says, "When you, Yahweh, went out from Seir, you marched from the land of Edom. The earth shook, the heavens poured, and the clouds poured down rain." Now that sounds an awful lot like God leading the people of Israel out of Egypt, right? You see some of that same language.

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: You see, you know, through the land of Edom. In fact, that's what she's talking about. Through the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down rain. So, it almost reads like a reconquest of the land, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, it does. It has a lot of that same symbolism. 

David: So that's how they entered Canaan, and then now it's almost as if Deborah is equating this to kind of a mini [00:36:00] reconquest of the land. <Right.> She finished the job of getting rid of the Canaanites. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And so this whole song is couched in that language of God delivering the people out of Egypt again, right? Now another thing that is mentioned in this verse is that the heavens poured and the clouds poured down water. So it's the first mention of any kind of storm that actually affected the battle. Because if you just read chapter 4, the battle It just says the Israelites routed them. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. There is no mention of the waters and the chariots getting stuck, any of that, but that's in the song.

David: But that's in the song, right? So the song starts to tell you then about this rain storm that floods the Kishon River, and then you put all that together and it renders their chariots useless. And so that is an interesting detail that wasn't mentioned in chapter four. If you just read the narrative of the story. <Right.> Right.

So, [00:37:00] in fact, Judges chapter 4:15 says, "At Barak's advance, the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots by the sword." And that's all it says. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: But then if you look at the Song of Deborah verse 21, it says, " The river Kishon swept them away, the age old river, the river Kishon."

J.R.: Right. See, why wouldn't they have mentioned that in the regular story? That seems like an integral, key <It does, yeah.> turning point, right? 

David: But, I don't know, maybe Barak wrote the story and he said yeah, just say that I routed the army, right? 

J.R.: This is Barak's side of it. 

David: Yeah What is it a history is written by the victors? Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

David: So yeah, I don't know why they didn't include this. But it is interesting that the song states explicitly what exactly happened and the picture you get is the rain clouds open up the valley floods the river floods. And it eve n says, you know, his chariots are swept away, basically. <Right.> Now, the chariots being swept away, that should [00:38:00] spark another famous Old Testament <Sure, right.> passage, right? 

J.R.: The Red Sea. 

David: The Red Sea, yeah. <Mm hmm.> So, this is another case here where the way that Deborah kind of puts this song together, you almost see her crafting it in terms of another big historical event that everyone knew and everyone could rally around. Like, do you not see what just happened here? This is a mini flooding of the chariots of Pharaoh in the Red Sea. 

J.R.: Right, right. Yeah, another exodus, which is interesting because I think it says something about Deborah's leadership that it's not just a battle won. She ties it to their history. She ties it to their lineage and says, this is another example of God delivering us from the oppressor, right? And that's what a great leader does. They don't just give some great locker room speech and everybody charges out to face the enemy, right? A good leader was going to tie in their purpose and that they see a larger context with what they're [00:39:00] doing. And so, yeah, she ties it into what God has done for them in the past, thereby focusing the Israelites on how they're going to move forward in the future. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. And to tie it then back to something you had said earlier, is the whole book of Judges is framed at this idea of here's the next generation that basically had forgot what went down in Promised Land.

Then, I do think to play off, what you just said about Deborah being a great leader is one of the things she does then is she's bringing back the great victories of the past, right? <Right.> She's framing what just happened in light of the history that were led to kind of believe that this generation had forgotten.

J.R.: Right. Yeah, that's right. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And it's sort of the, this is, this may rub people the wrong way, but it's sort of that whole, let's make America great again. And let's point back to when we were this great country. And, and I think that's what she's doing. She's saying, Hey, she's pointing back to this amazing story of the Exodus and [00:40:00] saying, look, we're having this again. Let's seize this moment and depend on God because he's the one who delivered us from evil. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: So, yeah, so that's what ushers in the 40 years of peace. 

David: Right, yeah. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: There's one other verse in the Song of Deborah. Now I want to call it the Song of Dolly and Kenny, but 

J.R.: We'll stick with that, I like it.

David: Actually, there's something you could do with the whole Islands in the Stream, if it's the Kishon River. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, I've got the whole <You got it?> Well, I just got the melody in my head, and so I'm reading these verses trying to put them to that melody. <Yeah.> I don't think we better not go there.

David: All right, let's get back to the topic. There's one more interesting thing in the Song of Deborah. Judges 5 verse 20. There's this little weird verse that says, "From the heavens, stars fought. From their courses, they fought against Sisera." 

J.R.: Ah, yeah. 

David: Now, what do you do with that? 

J.R.: Right, right.

David: So, and you could say, well, it's just kind of this, song lyric, right? I don't know to what tune, [00:41:00] somewhere in that Islands in the Stream. But anyway, there's this little note that says from the heavens the stars fought. Now, people don't always know what to do with this, but we've talked about this on this podcast before. 

J.R.: Oh sure.

David: That in the ancient world, people believe stars were associated with angels or heavenly beings, right? <Right.> And there's another dimension going on that we've talked about several places here, is that what happens in the earthly realm is being mirrored in the heavenly realm. 

J.R.: That's right. 

David: Yeah, and so that's not a little throwaway verse because they needed something to rhyme with stars, right, or something like that. <Right.> They're actually saying something about what they held to be true about the world that they lived in. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And that is that as this battle was taking place in the material world, that the heavens were fighting as well, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And this is an interesting tie into Greek mythology because that holds true to their [00:42:00]worldview as well. That the spiritual world reflected the physical world. 

David: Yes. Yeah. You can very much see that on a battlefield on the earthly realm also mirrored kind of a fight among the Olympic gods or something like that. Right? 

J.R.: Right. And we tend to look at Greek mythology and it's like, Oh, did they really believe in all these gods and stuff like that? Well, that's kind of the worldview also of the writers of the Bible. 

David: Sure. Yeah. 

J.R.: And, even in verse eight of Deborah's Song, it says, "When the new gods were chosen, then war was at the gates." And that could mean a couple of things. It could mean that the Israelites chose new gods, meaning the Baals and straight away from Yahweh. But it's this recognition that the God you choose has material and earthly ramifications. And so that when Israel chose their new gods, then war was at the gates. So, yeah, you see this correlation of mentioning the gods, right. And the God you choose matters. And yeah, that there's ramifications for that.

But yeah, that ties into mythology of the [00:43:00] temperament of the gods is going to affect crops. The temperament of the gods is going to affect our productivity, and all those types of things tying together. And so, yes, , I think you can kind of pull that idea, that strand of mythology , from this story, but this isn't the only thread that you can pull from mythology, right?

David: Right. There's other, yeah, there's a lot going on here. 

J.R.: Yeah. What are some of the other things? Because I read this and I'm like, I don't, I don't really see the mythological tone as much as we claim is in this story, right? What are some other things we see? 

David: Well, so yeah, let's talk about some of the bigger concepts then. Because it's one thing just to read the story and go, Oh wow, that was a cool story. But you know, what's really going on here at a higher level. <Right.> Let's go back to this idea of Deborah being a woman. Right? <Right. Right.> So, and this phrase that she said, because you didn't go up there by yourself, a woman will get the honor, right? <Mm hmm.> That's an interesting phrase, because that could be read two ways. Is she talking about Jael, who killed Sisera, or is she talking about herself? That a woman [00:44:00] will get the honor. 

J.R.: Yeah, it could be seen as a prophetic word. But I also think when she's saying it, she's just pointing out that the honor is not going to go to Barak.

David: Yeah, regardless, it's not gonna go to you. 

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: That's what she's saying, yeah, so, it's interesting because women play prominently in this story, and let's be honest, in stories that are usually dominated by men. Especially when it comes to military battles and you had mentioned in chapter four like why didn't they even mention the rainstorm, right? Well, it's almost like the battle itself, the men fighting - one way to think about it is almost the side story. 

J.R.: Yeah Right. Yeah, that's right. It's not about that.

David: It is not the main action that took place which I think goes back to this idea of the stars fought, right? So that's kind of this mythic overlay of this story. You It's just one of the things that I'll point out here that we can talk about here for a couple of minutes, because the men fighting is a side story. There's something much bigger going on through all this, [00:45:00] right? 

J.R.: Right. Well, at the beginning, when they introduced Barak, it says that he's the son of Abinoam and I looked that word up and Abinoam means the father of pleasantness.

Now think about that. You know, it's almost to kind of implying this naive politeness, right? And it goes back to that idea that I said earlier. Good times make weak men. And so here's Barak. Here's the military commander. He's the son of this guy who's father of pleasantness, yeah. 

David: Okay. 

J.R.: Yeah. Anyway, that, yeah, he's, a nice guy. I mean, you know, you think about what you once said at your funeral. I don't want to be seen as a jerk or anything, but at the same time, if they say, man, J.R., man, he was a pleasant guy. I'd be a little bit disappointed if that's all they came up with, right? 

David: Yeah. It doesn't exactly command immediate respect, right? Or fear. <Right. Right.> Wait till you talk to my father, the father of pleasantness. 

J.R.: That's right. He's really going to light into you. Yeah. 

David: He's going to pour you a cold drink and have a good, friendly talking to you. That's what's going to happen. [00:46:00]

J.R.: So that's how he's introduced. And then of course, yeah, it goes into this Deborah asking him, has not the Lord God of Israel commanded you to go gather your men? Right. She's asking him this question. And so you see Deborah rising to the top because I believe this is a story of men abdicating their responsibility. And you see these themes all through this story. There's several of them. You, you see it in, Jael that you know, it mentions her husband, but he's not a ...

David: He's a side, yeah, he's a side issue also, right? <Right.> Everywhere where you would expect the man to play a prominent role in a story like this, it's a side issue. 

J.R.: Right, yeah. 

David: And you see that all through the story. 

J.R.: Yeah. And Barak says, if you go with me, I'll go. But if you don't go, I'm not going, you know? It's this theme that you see. I don't think the readers would have missed this. <No.> That there's this kind of shrinking back of the men in this story. And that necessitates Deborah who I think we've kind of all agreed that Deborah is kind of [00:47:00] the ideal judge if there is one in the book. They've all got their weaknesses. <Yeah.> But Deborah's kind of at the top of this list. No, and and I don't think it's missed by the readers that yes, and she's also a woman.

David: Yes, I think Deborah very much represents the ideal judge. One of the things you'll see throughout some of these other stories too that we're going to talk about too is Deborah is the hero without ever having to actually lift a sword, right?

J.R.: Right, sure. 

David: And it's one of these, okay, this might be a side tangent here, but it's one of these things that our modern movies, to me, I was thinking about this the other day, our modern movies get wrong, Deborah is the unquestioned leader, she's the hero of the story. But, if this were written in modern times, Deborah would have taken up sword skills and Jael would have been her shield maiden. And they would have gone into the thick of battle and just started slaying men left and right. 

J.R.: Right. She would have been the dominant fighter.

David: Right? So she would play the strong female [00:48:00] lead who can stand up to any man.

J.R.: Right.

David: And you know look regardless what you think, that's what a lot of modern movies try to portray and they end up being flops because they don't really appeal to anyone.

J.R.: Right. Yeah, there's nothing that resonates as true when you see, and there's nothing wrong with seeing, you know, a woman beat up a guy in a movie. But when you see this kind of insistence on it, I think there's just a tendency, first of all, guys roll their eyes and they're like, yeah, I don't think that's the way this works.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And the more importantly, I don't think it resonates with women. I don't think women leave feeling empowered by seeing what's a good movie. 

David: Gosh. Yeah. I don't really watch any of them, but 

J.R.: Oh, you know what we talked about the Disney movie, Mulan, that the original animated film Mulan, of course, Mulan is this woman that wants to go into battle, and so she dresses like a man, and she goes into battle.

But in the original animated version, she had to rely on her cunning, she had to rely [00:49:00] on her small size, that she could kind of navigate the shadows, and so she would outsmart the enemy. But in the remake, I had read that - and I haven't seen, the remake - but I'd read in the remake, that Mulan just was suddenly just the best warrior, the best swordsman, and, she was better than all the men.

And that's kind of one of those, you see this shift , in the way they tell stories, that instead of showing a woman in a cunning role or a secretive role, they're like, let's just change the whole narrative and just show the woman dominating and coming out and fighting like that. And I don't think that, resonates with women. 

David: No, I don't think so either. And like you said, men roll their eyes at it. And frankly, it's, the lazy narrative, right? Because, the more true to life narrative, when you look back at stories like this in history, is women have a different way that they assert their influence.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And, you know, it's all throughout ancient stories, it's all throughout modern stories, if you're paying attention, [00:50:00] but that's not the way that it's often portrayed nowadays. The lazy narrative is, suddenly the woman is just as good a warrior as anyone out there, right? <Right.> And, I don't know, it's a, it's, as I was looking at this story again, I appreciate that aspect. That, Deborah is the hero here. And she never has to lift a hand, right? <Right.> She commands the men, like, Barak won't even go north without her. 

J.R.: Yeah, she has the respect of her fighters. <Yeah.> Her generals, right? 

David: And even if you look at Jael, too, , even her role, it's not because she did single combat with Sisera. She used her <Right.> She finessed the situation, and while everyone else is hand to hand combat trying to kill Sisera, she lures him into the tent, gives him some milk, and puts a tent peg through his head.

J.R.: Yeah. Job done, right? And could a man have done that? 

David: Yeah. And could a man have done that? 

J.R.: Yeah. He's not going to trust a man even if he says, Hey, come in here, you know, get some milk. <Yeah. Yeah.> He wouldn't trust it. He's like, [00:51:00] yeah, I don't know. I don't like this. This is going somewhere that I don't want to go, right? 

David: Yeah. So I think it plays into another aspect of this mythic themes that we can pull out of here is this idea of ancient glory versus biblical glory. And look one of the big differences if you read the Odyssey, if you read some of these other stories, the ancient hero never would have let someone else take the glory on the battlefield. <Yeah, right.> You see this all throughout the Iliad, the Trojan War, right? Like Achilles wants glory for himself, right? In life or death. That's what he wants. Glory for himself. And here you see a very different picture. Again, epitomized by Deborah. Deborah is happy to do nothing. Well, on the surface, do nothing. Except lead and direct according to what God has been telling her. Right? <Right.> So, in the Bible, heroes are characterized by obedience. They trust God's plan in whatever is asked for them. That's the true hero in the [00:52:00] Bible, and you will see this again in other stories in Judges as well. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, I just don't want people to miss that this Word of God that says, I'm gonna give this army over to you, was given to both Deborah and Barak.

David: Yeah, it's interesting. I actually missed that the first time through. 

J.R.: Yeah, one acted on it, and the other one was afraid to. <Yeah.> One buried it. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And so yeah, it's just this abdication of the responsibilities of men , in obviously a patriarchal society and they weren't stepping up. And so Deborah had to.

David: Yeah. In fact, the typical feminine, if you understand some of the symbolism, the typical feminine is kind of the chaos. <Right.> And again, there's a lot to that, so don't misunderstand that, but typical masculine represents order. Feminine represents chaos. And again, don't read too much into that. But it is interesting here that Deborah has to step in and be the one who restores order from the feminine role. Which, again, I think is interesting, and it's, [00:53:00] would not be missed by the first readers, the ancient readers of this story. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. And so, weaknesses, or the shortcomings of the judges there are shortcomings of all the judges. And there's really not a shortcoming of Deborah, but the shortcoming is the representation that men didn't step up and fulfill their role.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And so, that therefore, the ideal judge, Deborah, had to. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: And so they shirked back. So yeah, she's the one that there's really not, there's not any glaring ...

David: Yeah, it's why we <shortcoming, right?> Why we talk about her being probably the ideal judge is you don't really see anything negative about her. You don't see any hesitancy. You don't see any lack of faith. In fact, you see her leading Barak and other people around her for utter victory and it said the land had peace for 40 years. And in that way, can't ask for a better leader than that, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, exactly. 

David: Alright, what are the other mythic themes we're looking at here? We already talked about this idea of echoes of the [00:54:00] Exodus. <Right.> And we already talked about that, but I just want to reiterate how much this event mirrors what was taking place during the Exodus and the original conquest of the land, right? <Right.> The other thing I want to talk about that bears mentioning again is this link between the heavenly and the earthly realm. And I think you said it, that in a lot of myth there is an unmistakable link between what is happening in the heavenly realm and what is taking place on earth. 

J.R.: Right.

David: And that little verse in Judges 5:20 that says, "In the heavens the stars fought." Right? That creates this epic, mythic link here to this story. 

J.R.: Yeah. Oh, I see what you're saying. Are you saying that the, weather, the fact that the weather kind of turned in their favor was sort of the gods?

David: Yeah.

J.R.: Helping things - obviously Yahweh helping things out. But you know, but in mythic language, it was like the gods favored the Israelites because they sent this weather phenomenon. Is that what you're saying? 

David: Yeah, [00:55:00] and that's kind of interesting. Yeah, that's that's a common theme that you see in other myths. Where in just Greek mythology in general: unexplained or random events in battle, again, go back to the Iliad, they're almost always the work of the gods. So, if anything random happens, I think one of the things that happens in the Iliad is a really excellent archer shoots an arrow and he actually misses the target. Well, that's immediately explained by the gods intervened, right? <Yeah, yeah.> Because this guy doesn't miss. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And so, something like a rainstorm, and this is where I think, again, in our rational scientific mindset we go, "Oh, okay a rainstorm flooded the river." 

J.R.: How often does that happen? 

David: Right, but ..

J.R.: All the time. So why would you attribute it to a god? Yeah. 

David: Well, yeah, yeah. Happens all the time, so there's nothing super natural to see here, right? But that misses the point of what's going on in this story. The story is that Deborah was assured by God that he would deliver them. [00:56:00] And the storm happens almost, we're led to believe, at God's command, right? At God's prompting.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Confirmation of that assurance. 

David: Yeah. Right. So it's not just that, oh, we can explain why this happened. It's like the timing of it. Why did it happen right then? <Right.> Right? Why did it intervene right when this battle was taking place and Barak was facing unimaginable odds with this formidable army? And suddenly, the winds shift, and literally it's a route by Barak, right? <Yeah, yeah.> And the ancients would say, look, how else do you explain that? That's God, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: And I think that's why that line is included, just to make that link clear, that the stars fought in heaven. 

J.R.: Okay, and I see that, but they obviously attributed the victory to Yahweh. But why would stars be fighting? I mean, is this other angels? Is this the powers of God versus the powers of evil kind of taking place, fighting up in the heavens? And the [00:57:00] storm is something having to do with the material outworking of that or, how do you see that? 

David: Yeah, well, if you look at some ancient commentaries, they talk about how the stars kind of prompted the weather patterns. <Mm hmm.> Again, you have to go back to the ancient mindset that saw stars as angels. Or having an angel associated with them. So when stars are fighting, it's actually talking about spiritual beings are engaged in combat, right? 

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: So you have to do that. And we also, we've talked about this before, there are fallen angels, right? <Right.> And so, I think the picture that's being created is the fate of what's happening on Earth is being determined by these heavenly spirits that are wrestling for, you might say, who gets the glory of this battle, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. . I see where you're going with this. 

David: Yeah. So that's how this would be read. That's definitely how the ancients would have seen that [00:58:00] one little verse that the stars fought. It's interesting because I'd read a first-century Jewish commentator and it's called the Antiquities of Philo, I believe. I just found it's funny because I had read this like three months ago. And then I can't remember where I read it and I found it last night.

J.R.: Yeah.

David: And sometimes it's called Pseudo-Philo because Philo of Alexandria is this well known figure first century didn't actually write this. But it was practiced back then to say these are the thoughts of Philo or something like that. So you might see this as Pseudo-Philo. But, he's writing a commentary on this section, and he actually goes into a little more detail about what it meant that the stars fell. Now, he's actually saying, the stars of Yahweh confronted the stars of Baal. And he actually describes it as raining fire down upon Sisera's army. 

Which, I say all that just to say that, you know, first-century Jews actually understood this [00:59:00]very much in that light, right? That something was happening in the spiritual realm that affected the outcome of this battle.

J.R.: Right, right. And that, yeah, that does. It ties back to mythological idea, the mythological narrative. And so again, to kind of go back to , what we said at the beginning, where are you saying that all this is just a myth? It's like, no. What we're saying is that these things really did happen, but they were understood through the lens of what we would call mythology. That the heavens were fighting along with this pivotal battle down on the plains down at the base of this mountain, right? <Yeah.> And so yeah, there's this whole narrative playing itself out and it corresponds from heaven to earth and the mythological elements are ways to see, to make sense of what happened, right?

<Yeah.> You know that I don't know. We just kind of tend to want to, oh, materialize it a little bit too much, like you said. Say, well, look, it was a random storm that could have happened at any time. And they didn't see it that way. They saw it as an [01:00:00] interference of the gods and confirmation that God was on their side.

David: Yeah. And it very much would have been seen as Yahweh, the God of Israel, just defeated Baal, the god of Canaan. <Yeah, right.> I mean, that would be unmistakable. 

J.R.: Right. Right. 

David: So they certainly didn't - especially if you're a Canaanite - they certainly wouldn't have seen that as, well, that stinks. A random storm came up. No, they would have said, hey, the God of Yahweh is not to be messed with because he just wiped out our whole army. 

J.R.: Right, yeah, they saw the spiritual implication to it. <Yeah.> I don't know this, this may not resonate with you at all, but when the Twin Towers came down, I remember thinking that, are you kidding me? These guys did this with box cutters. And, you know, they took over the planes. And when that second tower fell, I remember thinking, what is going on? There's gotta be some bigger meaning. You know what I mean? This, this is, this was beyond their wildest expectations, as far as terrorists [01:01:00] go. That this could not have played out better. 

And there was a tendency of me to think, man, what does this mean? This means something, right? And so even in the modern context, we see these quote unquote battles, right? You see something like the terrorist attack. And in the moment, there's this idea, there's this feeling really down deep in my gut that says this means something bigger than wow, they got really lucky with this. I can't believe that they knocked both of those buildings down with box cutters taking over the cockpit of a plane, right. Does that make any sense? 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: There is sort of this understate. So I'm trying to give a modern explanation of something that we've seen in our lifetime that we're saying, man, there's something bigger going on. There's supernatural forces happening here. Something's happening. And I could see very easily through that experience saying, yeah, the gods are fighting right now. This is not just a one off luck of the draw, terrorist attack that just went wildly well. Something bigger is at play.

[01:02:00] <Yeah.> And I think that's how they viewed these battles. That's how they viewed these turning points in these wars. That again That's what they went ended up taking out the king of Canaan over this and that I think that's how they viewed it.

David: Yeah, I think we are hesitant today to ascribe any kind of God working behind certain events that are happening. <Right.> Because, well, you can take it to two extremes: because there have been times in the past where some church leader has spoken up and said, oh, this is the judgment of God, which doesn't actually really communicate much to the secular world. <Right.> But I think what you're saying is, and maybe on a more personal level, is sometimes we can be too quick to dismiss any kind of God working, or any kind of supernatural thing happening, coordinating certain events in our life that lead me to kind of a crossroad, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: At least I do. And so, I think something that the ancient world [01:03:00] understood that we've lost is just how much the heavenly realm is affecting what's happening on earth. And we'd be good to, I think, bring some of that back. But also to keep it in its proper perspective, because no one wants to be the person, also, who is - everything that happens, it's like, oh, God did this, or the devil did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Right. There's some responsibility to be bared, obviously. 

David: Well, okay, so let's tie that into a couple of the other big picture takeaways from this story , the way I would say it is, that came out of Deborah's complete alignment with God. And the reason why Deborah could maybe speak with the confidence that she did is she was totally aligned with God. And maybe that's why I would say that it's difficult today. Is I'm not sure how aligned with God I am sometimes or some of the religious leaders who make these grand pronouncements about this is a direct judgment from God, right? <Right.> I mean, it's tough, but I think the reason why Deborah [01:04:00] acted the way she did is because she was again, we talk about her being the ideal judge. She was in complete alignment with God and what God was saying to her, right? 

J.R.: Right. Right. But it's also, important to realize that this is just one person of one tribe and this is not, this is what happens in lawlessness, is it requires somebody to step up and take the lead and here's this win, here's this peace for 40 years because of the steps she took. But it's not enough to establish a - what am I trying to say? 

David: It's not enough to establish a structure that produces order. 

J.R.: Yes, yes, there you go. Yeah. So it's a win definitely, but it doesn't establish order. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: In a structural way to the entire nation of Israel. In her tribe, it brought things around. It united some other tribes that they ended up defeating Canaan. There's peace for 40 years, but the structure still isn't in place. [01:05:00] <Yeah.> it can't maintain. And so, yeah, to recognize Deborah is the ideal; that's important. But also just remember that she rose up out of the lawlessness, and her leadership was necessary because of the lawlessness of the broader culture. <Yeah.> Like there wasn't those establishments in place.

David: And I think it's one of the weaknesses of the Age of Heroes, if we look at broad themes too, and that you see that same thing in the Book of Judges, is a hero can only accomplish so much, right? So as much as Deborah was aligned with God, it's like there needed to be a structure in place that brought order, that brought the country together. <Right.> That's another thing that you'll see all throughout the book, is we have this tendency to say, they conquered the Promised Land, they're all Israelites now. Well, they don't act like Israelites. 

J.R.: No, no, no, they don't. 

David: They act like a bunch of scattered warring tribes with each other, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, and they can't get on the same page. That really is a very clear thing all through the book. 

David: And so [01:06:00] there's also the weakness of just being dependent on one leader, right, or one hero is it's only going to last so long, which is I kind of think what that 40 years represents, because it says there was peace for 40 years. Well, it means the year 41, right? No more peace. 

J.R.: Right, right. That's the end of it. Yeah. Well, it's that number 40. We've talked about the number forty. 

David: Yeah, we'll talk about that in, yeah, future episodes. 

J.R.: Yeah. 40 years of peace. So there you go. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. Any more thoughts on Deborah? 

J.R.: No, you go girl. I do think that there's something very deep that helps me understand that this story is that the fact that Deborah is a woman it's not just to be taken that, Oh, women can lead just like men. It's like, no, no, no, men actively did not embrace their role. And so that's how Deborah emerges. And I think that's what the Israelites would have drawn from this. 

David: Yeah. But she emerges as part of their story. Yeah, but she emerges as the ideal of someone aligned with God, [01:07:00] who actually in this kind of mythic way, directs events. And has this great victory unfold before her. More because of how she led, not because of the force that she led with if that makes sense. 

J.R.: Yes. Yes No, that's it. Yeah, that's right. She's not the strong man like Sampson. 

David: Yeah, I came away with this too like really respecting the person of Deborah and that's why again we've said it several times. I think she's the ideal, you know, I think she's the ideal judge. But even that has its weakness. And that's what we're gonna start to talk about as this series unfolds, so. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Alright. Okay, so who's next? 

David: So next, we are going to talk about Gideon. <Oh, sure.> And Gideon's a good guy, too. But doesn't quite have it all together. There's some weird stuff in there too. And we'll skip around. Obviously we're skipping some judges, but I think we're hitting on the four main ones. So yeah. 

J.R.: Do you want to do a whole episode on Shamgar? 

David: Is he the guy with one verse? 

J.R.: He has one [01:08:00] verse; killed 600 or something like that, some odd men with an ox goad.

David: Okay. 

J.R.: That's all you get out of it. 

David: That's quite a verse.

J.R.: Hey, if you're going to give me one verse, I guess that's what I'd want. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: You remember J.R.? He took out 600 people with a cattle stick. I don't know what an ox goat is, but. uh,

David: Duly noted. Don't mess with that guy. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right.

David: Alright, well thanks for listening. We will talk to you next episode. Again, if you have any thoughts or feedback, we'd love to hear it. We're thinking about doing something a little bit more with this whole idea of the judges. You can join our Facebook group. We have a Fanlist page. But most of all, just tell your friends. If you're enjoying this podcast, just tell your friends. 

J.R.: Sure. Yeah, let's get a little following going. Get the conversation moving. 

David: Yeah. Alright, talk to you next episode. 

J.R.: Alright, we'll see ya.