Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast
Welcome to a podcast that bridges the past and present in a transformative exploration of the Bible and faith. At Navigating An Ancient Faith, we delve into the original context of Scripture, mirroring the perspective of its first listeners. Our travels have taken us to Biblical lands, such as Israel, Greece, Turkey, and Egypt. Through insights from these travels, as well as engaging discussions around philosophy and mythology, we traverse the journey toward our own spiritual transformation. Join us on this journey from ancient faith to modern devotion.
Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast
The Gospel Announcement: Where is God's Kingdom?
Questions or Comments? We'd love to hear from you!
In this episode of the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast, we tackle the age-old question, "Where is God's Kingdom?" 🌍✨ We explore the spiritual and scriptural understanding of Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld, unraveling the mythic and symbolic language of the Bible. 📖🔍 Discover how heaven's proximity impacts our daily lives as we reflect on the interconnectedness of heaven and earth, and anticipate God's kingdom as we continue our exploration of The Gospel Announcement. 📣
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Where is God's Kingdom?
J.R.: [00:00:00] So Belinda Carlisle was right. Heaven is a place on earth.
David: There you go.
J.R.: She was ahead of her time, man
David: Hey, thanks for listening to the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast. Normally we'd say something like, I'm coming to you from. St Petersburg, Florida. J.R.'s joining me from Tennessee. Yeah. But we are sitting in the same room.
J.R.: We met in the middle.
David: Yeah, we did.
J.R.: Well, not really the middle. I came further than you.
David: Yeah, you got a little more drive than I do.
J.R.: Yeah, at mom's house. Yeah, the classic failure to launch both of us stuck in mom's house.
David: If you're listening to this, we actually are both responsible adults with real jobs. <Right.>
But, our mother lives well, not halfway in between, but yeah, kind of a decent day trip for both. For both of us. And so it's a, yeah, it's a good trip to ...
J.R.: Free place to stay.
David: That's right. We probably should have explained that to people before we always just say we're at mom's house.
J.R.: Yeah, that's right. [00:01:00] But we didn't grow up here. This is our stomping grounds. It is. Yeah. So it feels like we're back home. I went down where you and I went to high school and it's kind of a dump now.
David: Is it?
J.R.: Yeah. Went down the street that I grew up on. A couple adult bookstores. You know, It was not there when we were growing up there. Unfortunately when I was in high school, but yeah. And now that I'm not interested in that. They are. So anyway, no, it's kind of gone downhill.
David: And the other thing I noticed being back home is, or your hometown, I should say. So today we went to the mall and I'm thinking, oh, that's about 20 minutes away. And it's like a 10 minute drive.
J.R.: Yeah, everything. In fact, I saw our church that you and I grew up in, and I remember the big yard where we'd throw the tennis ball up and we'd chase each other around. <Oh yeah.> And I looked at it and I thought, man, that is like the size of a garage. How do we play? It was like a football field to us. But we have a little bridge that goes over a ditch and that looked like a [00:02:00] chasm. When I was a kid and I looked at it today and I was like, golly, this is like a little drainage ditch. It's just nothing. But yeah, that whole everything's bigger when you're a kid. <Yeah.> type of moment when you go back and see.
David: Everything's bigger in your mind, and then you go back and reminisce.
J.R.: Yeah. So it was fun. It's been a fun weekend.
David: Yeah. Yeah. We've been eating well, and we always use this as an opportunity to sit down in person and record a couple of episodes.
J.R.: Yeah. Here we go. I'm looking forward to it.
David: Yeah. So we started a series last episode on the gospel announcement and we are exploring this idea of what is the gospel back in its original context. Right. So if you're a Jew, if you're a Roman living in the Roman empire and people like Jesus and the Apostle Paul are talking to you about the gospel. What did they mean?
Because 2,000 years later, it is layer after layer of meaning. Right. What words mean what we think they mean, the connotations that they have. And we're trying to strip all that away and say, what [00:03:00] is the original gospel announcement?
J.R.: Right. And we always put our 21st century spin on the words. And when you pull it away, again, I think we mentioned this last week, Paul didn't define what the word gospel meant. So they had to have a previous understanding of what that meant outside of Christianity. So we talked about that. Yeah, it was a great episode. It was interesting. I actually had a conversation with a buddy after that. Okay. Yeah. So we kind of went down that road, but,
David: okay, cool.
J.R.: Yeah. It was interesting.
David: Yeah. Well, I had one of these moments too, where this happens frequently. After we record an episode, I'm thinking about it and more things occur to me. And I have one of those moments after last episode that we recorded, because it's usually happened when I go for a run. And I was thinking about how everything tied together, and I had this larger thought, I guess that I just wanted to kind of recap last time.
J.R.: Well, we always say, we're going to go back and add this in. We never do. And we never do. And then we say, We'll talk later,
David: hit. Hit it next episode.
J.R.: So this is probably a good idea. Yeah.
David: So we'll hit on that [00:04:00] and then we'll get into today's episode.
J.R.: Yeah. So what occurred to you?
David: Well, one of the things we did was we reviewed, I asked chat GBT, how people got saved. Oh, right. I joked around about that, right? But in other words, there were a lot of different ways in the New Testament, how someone reached a point of salvation is what we would say.
J.R.: Yeah. And there were multiple ...
David: Sure, there were all kinds of ways.
J.R.: There wasn't a singular pattern that we could really pick up and zone in and say, yeah, this is how to get saved.
David: Yeah, so that was the point is there's all these different, ways that people reach this point of salvation. As we would think about it, then we really talked about what is this gospel announcement? And we talked about how it's this whole encompassing thing of, it's the good news, right?
A new kingdom is emerging. Here's who is leading it. Here's what they did. And here's how you are to respond. You are to repent and align yourself with what this good news means. Right. And it wasn't just a Christian context. It was any good news, right? So here's the thought I had it [00:05:00] occurred to me that when you understand the gospel announcement from the way we landed on in the last episode. Then all of those different ways of quote getting saved are all describing different facets of the same thing, right?
<Yeah, right.> So we tend to look at a verse and say, well, that's how that person got saved. Well, look at how this person got saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. And then this person was baptized and now their whole house. Right? It's come to salvation, right? And so there's these different ways, but those verses I think what they're doing is they're just describing one aspect of what people would have understood as this whole process, right?
Yeah. You accept the good news, you repent and then you align your life with what the good news is telling you to do.
J.R.: Yeah. And we talked about baptism. There's an outward ...
David: Yeah.
J.R.: announcement that we make to our community. That's an aspect of that.
David: That's an aspect. Yeah.
J.R.: And you're right. And when you focus too tightly on any one of those aspects, well, that's how denominations are formed. Right? If we [00:06:00] disagree, right. So we disagree on an aspect and we're like, Nope, this is essential. And somebody else says. No, no, no, that's not essential. This is the most essential part. And the next thing, you know we have first Baptist church and the first Methodist church of wherever.
David: And then a second Baptist church.
J.R.: Right. Yeah. And so you splinter off and I think you're right. I think if you see it as more holistic, what is the Bible saying in multiple examples of salvation and tying all those things together, then I think you have a fuller picture. I think it's because, we talked about this last week, I think it's because we want the formula. We want something precise. There's something in our minds that says just like the rich young ruler, how do I be saved? And I think he wanted a checklist of, let me do this and let me do this.
And before you get started, I've already kept the law since I was a kid. So what's next, right? Yeah. I think we just focus in on the specifics of it instead of recognizing it's more like a recipe, you know, it's more like there's several ingredients to it. And they kind of [00:07:00] got, <yeah.> in the right proportion. And in their own way. And something's created out of that.
David: Yeah. We talked earlier, as we were talking about this of it's kind of the blind men and the elephant, right? Yeah. Each of them say, well, this is what an elephant is, but they're only describing one aspect of it. And the person who can see steps back and says, look, you're all describing a part of the same thing. And maybe that's what we do when we pick these verses out. And we say, okay, here's how the Bible says how to get saved.
J.R.: Right. And again, I don't think what we're describing is multiple ways of salvation or multiple.
David: Yeah, exactly.
J.R.: Typically, when you used the elephant analogy we're talking about, well, the Buddhists do it this way and see God this way. And the Muslim see God this way. That's not really what we're saying. But when you look at the Bible and the multiple stories, Yeah, it is kind of like the different stories highlight maybe one of the different aspects of salvation. And we're supposed to kind of tie all of it together.
David: Yeah. We're supposed to see the whole. And [00:08:00] see it as this whole thing. Yeah. And we tend to still focus on the little parts here and there and disagree and maybe splinter and. Yeah, start a different denomination, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So I just thought that was one of those kind of light bulb moments that went off for me after we recorded the episode.
J.R.: That's usually how it works.
David: I like when that happens. So today we're going to talk about a different aspect of the kingdom, because part of this whole gospel announcement is the good news is that the kingdom of God is coming, right? Right. And God is bringing all things in heaven on earth and under the earth under the reign of Jesus, right? That's the gospel. So it raises the question that we're going to talk about today, then, where is God's kingdom?
J.R.: Ah, okay.
David: You get Google maps out and <That's right, that's right.> see what it says.
J.R.: It's definitely up right in that, right? Yeah. Surely it's at least it's up.
David: We know what's up. We'll work from there.
J.R.: How far up there's debates on that. Yeah. Different [00:09:00] denominations there too.
David: Yeah. And last episode we started with maybe some of the more traditional understandings of what the gospel is. Probably a good place to start there because, look, I have all these preconceived notions too, that are hard to shed, so. <Right.> But if you ask the average person, where is heaven? Or what is heaven? <Right.> You're going to get some pretty standard answers. You're going to get some all over the board answers. We have so many preconceived notions today of, what does it mean God's kingdom? Is God's kingdom the same as heaven? Where is heaven? Well, like you said, it's up, right?
J.R.: Right? Yeah. Up in the clouds.
David: Yeah. It's up in the sky, right? And clearly everyone who was talking about heaven, they looked up right. The heavens talks about Jesus descending down from heaven. Yeah. You know, so clearly heaven is up in the cloud somewhere. It's up in the sky.
J.R.: Yeah. I think of the quote from the Russian cosmonaut, I guess it was the first guy into space. Yuri Garger. Yuri something. And he went up into space and he said, "I looked and I [00:10:00] looked and I never saw God." Right?
David: Yeah.
J.R.: That was sort of the,
David: That was the dig.
J.R.: Yeah. The dig, the dig at religion. That he went up there and there is no God.
David: He went to the heavens and there was no God or heaven up there. Right. So, clearly, this is all a farce.
J.R.: Yeah. But it is it's that idea that it's up there somewhere. And my guess is that more people in the ancient world literally did believe it was up in the cloud somewhere beyond the clouds. And of course we're past that now. And so does that disprove it or is it just reframe where we position heaven?
David: Yeah, I think on one hand, we say, well, we know better than that, but if you really press people, we don't know a better answer than, it's still up there somewhere. You just, it's just invisible. You can't see it. Yeah, right?
J.R.: Yeah. It's clearly past where our telescopes can see so far.
David: Yeah. We just haven't looked far enough, but it's out there. Right, right. Cause it's gotta be somewhere .
J.R.: Well, does it have to be somewhere I guess that's what we're getting at.
Well, the thing is, again, we're starting with traditional understanding and so [00:11:00] we're placing heaven up there somewhere because in theory that's where it is. But you and I, I mean, we always kind of talk about the idea of mythic language and what that represents. And so that's actually a pretty good place to start because when the Russian cosmonaut goes up there and he doesn't see heaven, does that prove anything? Is that a little bit of a stab? Did we have to regroup and come up with plan B? <Yeah.> What did that do to the fundamental religious people that believed it was up there? Did that cause a problem? You know, and you and I talk about what we talk about on this podcast all the time is that it shouldn't; that's not a problem, you know? Right, right.
Because of the mythic understanding of language and the fact that the way we use words to describe things in the spiritual realm, all we can do is use our material language because here we are in the material world. And so we use this language all the time. We talk about being pulled down into depression. We talk about bad friends pulling us down.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Right. And we're obviously, again, those are the same [00:12:00] thing. We're not talking about a literal direction. We are talking about a figurative direction. And so when we say heaven is up. And hell is down there. And God has a white beard, right? Those are figurative ideas because the white beard represents wisdom, down represents hell, up represents heaven. Yeah. So it is kind of that mythic language that we can attach ourselves too strongly to. And then we ended up having a problem when, oh, wait, I dug and dug and there is no hell down there.
David: Yeah, part of it I think it helps to go back to the ancient mindset. And part of the ancient mindset was to understand mythic language, right? Yeah. And so I guess to back up a little bit, then to go in the direction that you were just talking about. So the ancient mindset believed that there was the heavens. And there was the earth. And there was the underworld.
J.R.: Right.
David: And the Bible says that, right? It's, this is not just superstitious pagan worldview. This is what the Bible's worldview is, right? Yeah. There's the [00:13:00] heavens and the earth and under the earth.
J.R.: Right. And even to describe that relationship, you've got the earth held up by physical pillars and underneath the earth is the underworld.
David: Pillars of the earth.
J.R.: And then above that is the heaven. So you kind of have this all on sort of a flat disk plane. Again, you have this imagery of, okay, you've got the underworld, you've got these big pillars that are holding up earth above it. And then you've got the heavens above that.
David: And the heavens above that is even, almost conceptualized as a dome. So it's like, you're looking at the ceiling, like a dome ceiling. <Right, exactly.> Yeah. And so that was their conception of the world. And we have a tendency today to go, well, that's clearly not right. But what we're saying is let's back up a minute and say, no, no, no. Remember, they're speaking mythic language here.
So, are they totally off base or maybe are they describing the world as they knew it. And the second thing is, are they describing a world beyond the scientific world, <Right.> that we get so hung up on today, right?
J.R.: Yeah. That's why you and I say, [00:14:00] I think they were describing reality. And when I say reality, I'm talking about something beyond the provable scientific atoms and photons that are bouncing around. Things like that, right? <Yeah.> It's difficult to overstate the effect of mythic imagery on our reality. And so the mistake that we end up making is that when we poke holes in the myth, we think we're disproving something, right? <Right.> And what we're actually doing. Is at least hopefully in reality, what we're doing is you're actually maturing in your understanding of something.
And so you and I talked about when you have a three-year-old that has a tendency to stick everything they can find into the wall socket. <Yeah.> You might look at that three-year-old and say, no, no, no. Don't do that. You can get hurt or there's, a monster in there. You can get bit by that. There's a bee in there that will sting you. You might try to say something that the three-year old or four year old can relate to and get scared of, right? And so, you know, [00:15:00] you kind of create this myth right. Of something's in the light socket that if you get too close <Yeah.> he'll jump out and grab you. And of course, as you get older and learn a little bit more about it, you might look back and say, man, my mom and dad told me something was in there, right? They just lied to me, right? Well, and the answer is, obviously you're not gonna get into electricity and you're not going to get into how this invisible force can actually hurt you. You're just going to make up a story that they're going to remember that's going to draw you away from it.
To go back to the idea of what's in the light socket that can hurt you. You and I were talking about the myth of the monster in the wall socket. There is something real to that, right? <Right. Yeah.> We can look at it and say, well, they just made that up and it's like, no, they really didn't. They just put it on a level that three-year-old can understand. And as you get older, once you understand what the myth was that mom and dad made up, then you're able to have a more mature understanding of, yeah, they were just trying to keep me from electrocuting myself. And so the myth takes on a more mature meaning, but it doesn't mean the myth [00:16:00] wasn't real. It doesn't mean what was behind it wasn't real, right?
David: Right. You could say, to use your example, you could say, well, there was no bee in the light socket that was going to come sting me. That whole thing is false. It's. It's completely made up. Go ahead and stick a fork in there and see what happens.
J.R.: See what does sting you?
David: Yes. And see if you actually embrace the myth a little bit more, right? <Yeah.> And what we talked about earlier is I think what we do is we tend to mythologize things even today that we don't understand. <Oh, absolutely.> Because it's easy to talk about the example of a three-year-old, but you could talk to me about quantum physics. And you're probably talking to the equivalent of a three-year-old like, I don't understand it.
Right? People talk about the size of the universe and they might as well be talking about the bee that lives in the light socket. And there are things we do today, ways that we describe things that you could probably call mythic language. Because it's the simplest way we know to conceptualize something that we don't understand.
Right? Right. [00:17:00] I think we've used this example before. If you talk about all your data has been uploaded to the cloud. Well, if you don't really understand data storage and servers. And. I don't need to store all this thing. Yeah, that's all. Like that almost sounds like mythic language, right?
J.R.: Yeah, it does.
David: Your data is up in the clouds. It's up there one level below heaven where God lives, right? <Exactly.> It's a bunch of data.
J.R.: Yeah. There's apparently a data center up there. So.
David: Now the more you understand networking and all that stuff, you may move beyond that language because you actually start to have a deeper understanding of what networking and data storage, for example.
Right. But we're trying to use things that even adults use mythic language to actually get a concept of something. And to your point, that doesn't mean once you get a little bit more understanding, it doesn't mean the myth was false, right? It means that you're growing beyond the simplistic understanding that was helpful for you with the [00:18:00] time to describe a reality. <Yes. Exactly.> It's kind of a tangent, but I think it's a helpful way to understand the ancient worldview when we start talking about the heavens and the earth and the underworld and how they understood it. The other thing that we do is we tend to grow in our, what our technological understanding our scientific knowledge. And we think that should describe everything about the world.
J.R.: Right, yeah, and that's a mistake
David: And I actually heard this I'm going to borrow it, but I heard someone recently say science is really good at explaining the natural world. And it's terrible at explaining everything else.
J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. Right. So. Emotions relationships, right?
David: Sure. The spiritual realm.
J.R.: Yeah, sure.
David: Right. Okay, so heard a podcast. You and I both listened to it. And I think the guy was Alex O'Connor. Yes. That the guy. Okay, so very well-known atheist.
J.R.: Yeah. Very well-spoken communicates well.
David: Very smart guy. But he was getting hung up [00:19:00] on a part of the Bible that I would say was mythic language. And to me, it was almost like this five-year-old understanding of language that he didn't understand.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: And that's because his whole worldview was the scientific worldview. <Right.> And if it didn't fit in that worldview, Then it didn't exist. Right. And it was nonsense. Yeah. Right.
J.R.: And it can only take you so far.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: And I think it's interesting and we don't need to go on this much of a tangent, especially about quantum physics and things that I don't understand, but I think that even in the material realm of understanding, we're reaching the limits of our understanding. And I'm sure there's going to be lots of discoveries about the material world moving forward. But when we really get down to the microscopic level, we get to this weird quantum world where things act like waves or things act like particles, and we don't quite understand it.
Quantum physicists don't quite understand it, right? They do their best to kind of wrap their head around it, but it's just weird, multi-verse type of world, you know. <Yeah.> So [00:20:00] this material understanding breaks down. Even in the material world, well, much less the spiritual world, much less the mythic realm, much less the emotional world of consciousness and things that we deal with every day. But we just can't put a ruler on it and say, this is so many inches, right?
<Yeah.> It doesn't work that way. Right? So yes, that's the limitations of the materials way of thinking.
David: Yeah. And. I also think at least I would say I'm growing in the awareness of how much that materialistic thinking is even brought into our churches. <Oh yeah, sure.> And our need to defend the Bible and how we read the Bible and how we explain things. And that's kind of this conversation coming full circle about the heavens and the earth and the underworld. Don't dismiss that so quick because the Bible is talking about things outside of the scientific realm. And so we have to let go of this idea that well, that doesn't fit into something that I can prove, or that makes sense in a science textbook. So, it must be a bunch of nonsense, or I don't want to sound like a [00:21:00] superstitious simpleton, right?
J.R.: Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's why, you know, specifically Jesus says over and over the kingdom of heaven is like, right? He doesn't say, is this, he doesn't say here's what the kingdom of heaven is, right? He says over and over, we looked it up. 20 times he says the kingdom of heaven is like, and it's almost like he's saying, I've been in the spiritual realm. I'm now in your physical realm. And I'm telling you that the kingdom of heaven is like this. I'm trying to explain a realm that you've never been in.
Exactly. Yeah. We were saying earlier that it's like, how do you explain what being wet is to a fish? You know what I mean? That's just it's world. Everything is wet. And so how do you distinguish wet and dry? How would you have that conversation?
Well, all you can do is say, well, it's like this and over and over, Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like this. And I think the reason he does that is because we're not from the spiritual realm. All we understand is this material realm. But in our material language, the kingdom of heaven [00:22:00] is like this, and that's what we're getting to in today.
David: Yeah, that's a good segway. Because when we're talking about this whole idea of the kingdom of heaven, first thing we have to acknowledge is we are moving outside of a realm that science can talk about, right. And so one of the things we need to do is drop our scientific explanations of, well, good. They're going to tell me exactly what heaven is.
Well, it's the same thing as looking to Jesus back in the first century saying, tell us about the spiritual realm. And to your point, all Jesus says over and over again is it's like this. And what does he say it's like? It's like the materialistic world that you live in, only it's not.
J.R.: Right.
David: But that's the only world, you know? So that's all I can give you right now.
J.R.: Yeah. The best I can tell you is streets of gold. Mansions in the sky.
David: You mean, they're not going to use real gold?
J.R.: I don't know. I don't know if it's mined. I'm not sure how that works, right? <Yeah.> And what is it? The main gate is a giant pearl and. [00:23:00]
David: We all each have our own mansion.
J.R.: We each have our own gigantic mansion with a McDonald's or a Chipolte, whichever you prefer.
David: Those are the two choices.
J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. So it's all this imagery that we have. And so, yeah, we kind of want to work past that or what are we talking about when we talk about the kingdom of heaven, outside of what we've kind of grown up to understand, the mythic language that we've been taught that it's up in the sky, that big mansion up in the sky, right. So where do we start with this?
David: Well, so there's like 20 places we could start, but this idea of maybe, well, are we talking about heaven or are we talking about the kingdom of God? And I think the first thing to recognize is that actually, when Jesus is talking about the gospel announcement, what he actually invites people into is the kingdom of God. It's not necessarily the invitation that says, do you want to go to heaven when you die?
J.R.: Okay.
David: Right. He's making an invitation to the kingdom of God, which fits with this idea of the gospel announcement. And I think we're [00:24:00] going to do this throughout the series a lot. We're going to go back and reference previous episodes that we've already covered.
J.R.: Yeah. It all builds on each other.
David: Right? So Rome's gospel was the Roman empire has come to bring peace.
J.R.: Right.
David: That's the kingdom that is emerging, right? Well, Jesus's gospel announcement is like, no, no, no. The kingdom of God is coming.
J.R.: Right.
David: And that's the true kingdom. That's the kingdom you actually want to pay attention to.
J.R.: Yeah. And it's interesting that that's the problem that the Romans had with what Jesus was saying. Are you declaring yourself Caesar? Because there's only one Caesar. You can't go run around saying that I'm a king also. And the same thing with the Pharisees, they had a problem with it.
David: That's a good point.
J.R.: All of these different groups had a problem with what Jesus was saying. Because they're saying, Hey, you're stepping on our kingdom here. Right? You're forcing your worldview onto our kingdom. And if you're coming and saying that I'm king, where does that put Caesar? And if you're coming and saying I'm God, where does that put [00:25:00] our traditional understanding of Yahweh, right? <Right.> and so it was a problem on all sides.
David: Right. And it was a problem because if Jesus had just gone around saying, Hey, I'm gathering followers, that will go to heaven when they die. <Right.> Rome would have said, "Who cares? Knock yourself out."
J.R.: Exactly. There were lots of followers that did that. Right?
David: You could just see easily said, Hey, we're all going to descend to Hades when we die. Rome would have said, go for it.
J.R.: Okay. As long as you're paying taxes.
David: We have some entrances to the underworld. You know, we can check that out sometime. Yeah. But go for it, you know? Right. As long as you're paying taxes in this life, right? <Right.> Yeah. But that's not what was threatening to Rome. What was threatening to Rome is no, no, no. God's kingdom is the true kingdom that's going to bring peace . And all things in heaven and on earth and under the earth are being brought under the reign of Christ. And that was a threatening message to Rome.
J.R.: Sure. And Rome and the Pharisees also kind of gave Jesus an opportunity to explain himself. It's [00:26:00] almost like they were saying the same thing that we're saying. Wait a second, are you talking in figurative speech? Is this mythic language that you're using? Yeah, it was almost like they were saying, clarify yourself. You don't really mean Caesar, right?
David: Yeah.
J.R.: And Jesus's reply was something along the lines of, yeah. I also mean that Caesar's under me, you know? <Yeah.> Give to Caesar what's his, but give to God's what's his. And so it's almost like they were trying to give him an out. Look, I will let you say that you just mean this in a figurative way and Jesus never took that bait.
David: Yeah. What was the one response? Someone said you claim to be a king. And Jesus said, You said it, not me.
J.R.: Yeah. Those are your words. Not mine.
David: I can neither confirm or deny that that's what I'm doing right here. Yeah. So let's take a look at some passages where this idea of the kingdom of God is introduced. And what we're going to find too, is that the kingdom of God and heaven become basically interchangeable.
J.R.: Well, that's what I was going to ask, so, okay.
David: All right. So first we can see John the Baptist, he kind of introduces this idea and he [00:27:00]framed it this way in Matthew chapter three. So beginning of Matthew's gospel. "In those days, John, the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near."
J.R.: Okay, so that's already right there. That's kind of interesting to me.
David: Yeah. So what's interesting about that?
J.R.: Well, the fact that the kingdom of heaven is coming near. Is it moving around?
David: Yeah. What does that mean?
J.R.: Is it in closer proximity? It's like a comet? You know, And every day it gets a little bit closer. What are we talking about here?
David: Also he calls it the kingdom of heaven. And one of the things that you'll see is in different gospels, it calls it the kingdom of God, which tells you that those two are interchangeable.
J.R.: Well, why would they use different terminology that close together. I kind of understand when books are hundreds of years apart sometimes. But in the gospels, why would that be so interchangeable?
David: The theory is that they're writing to a little bit different of an audience and the terms kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven might mean something different from [00:28:00] say a Gentile audience to a Jewish audience.
J.R.: God in the New Testament is Yahweh, right? <Sure.> So that wouldn't have meant as much to a Gentile audience, to the Romans or something like that.
David: The kingdom of heaven, a kingdom of the heavenly realm, <Right.> a Gentile audience would have recognized that. <Sure. Okay.> So it's something like that. So yeah, it's this idea of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God. And it's coming near. Yeah. What does that mean? And I think that's where we have to go back to some of that mythic language. <Right. Yeah.> How close? 10 miles?
J.R.: Are we talking about location? Are we talking about time-wise right? What are we talking about? Yeah.
David: So that's our first introduction into it, is John, the Baptist, who's preparing the way for the Messiah, Jesus. And same thing in Jesus's announcement. Again, Matthew chapter four. So now Jesus comes behind John. And it says, "From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near.'" So says basically the same thing.
J.R.: Well, as you read the first verse, I'm sitting there thinking, well, John, the Baptist [00:29:00] is announcing the coming of Jesus. So there's something associated with the kingdom of heaven and Jesus initially. But then here we go. See that. Yeah. In the very, what? Just a chapter later. Jesus is saying the same thing and Jesus is already here, right?
David: Right. So clearly the kingdom of heaven is not just Jesus is coming.
J.R.: Right, yeah. Jesus is being baptized or something like that. Yeah. But there is something that Jesus is bringing that is bringing the kingdom of heaven near.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Okay.
David: Yeah. All right. So, those two statements, very similar, and you can see those statements throughout the gospels. And I think it's interesting, we go back to this pattern of what the gospel is or what a gospel is, right? So we talked about this last episode, who is being proclaimed? Well, clearly Jesus <Sure.> is being proclaimed. What is being proclaimed? The kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven is approaching.
J.R.: Right.
David: Which is a way of saying a new era is about to begin. That's what it would mean in Roman terms, right?
J.R.: Yeah. That's right.
David: A new era [00:30:00] is dawning, right? And then what is expected? It's repent.
J.R.: Yeah. We have to adjust ourselves to that. What does that mean?
David: We talked about that idea of repentance is not just confessing. Oh, I got caught. Right. Yeah. It's adjust your ways accordingly. Right?
J.R.: Yeah. Again, when you say orient yourself toward God, that's kind of that location idea. It doesn't mean you face north or south or anything like that? Yeah, it does mean you orient yourself in spiritual terms, you adjust your life toward God. And I'm kind of jumping back to that idea of heaven being up, helping down, you know, that all we can do is use our language of locality to say what we're trying to do.
So, yeah. Orient yourself, adjust yourself toward what God is doing. And that's how we repent.
David: I think we use more mythic language than we even realize.
J.R.: Oh, all the time. Yeah. I've noticed it in the last couple of days while we were just talking about that. You know, I use it all the time. I said earlier, something about your friends dragging you down, right? Or [00:31:00] we've said things like, you know, you're depressed, you're in a hole.
David: Yeah. You're in a dark place right now.
J.R.: Yeah, I'm in a dark place. <Well, turn the light on.> Right. Yeah, flip the switch on. Do you need some light bulbs? Yeah, but it's just kind of imagery of where you're at and where your life has oriented right now.
And so, yes. To repent means to orient yourself to what God is doing. And we talked about what that meant in the last episode.
David: Yeah. So another interesting passage as we keep this moving let's look at the Lord's prayer. Matthew chapter six. So we've gone, Matthew three, Matthew four, Matthew six.
We're kind of sticking in Matthew here, right? But the Lord's prayer, "Our father in heaven." Okay. So that's that God is in Heaven. Sure, right location. "Hallowed is your name. Your kingdom come." So we're talking about the kingdom of heaven coming. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
Now, those aren't separate things. Those are all talking about the same idea. And the thing I want to point out here in the Lord's prayer is again, The father in heaven and your kingdom, that kingdom of heaven [00:32:00] is coming. It's close. It's near. That's what Jesus was announcing. And then it says on earth as it is in heaven. <Right.> Now, that's an interesting phrase there because I think that starts to establish a link that the ancients would have understood. There's this link between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. Right. And I think it's easy for us to just pass, especially something like the Lord's prayer. Well, yeah. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.
J.R.: Well, again, you've got all three examples that you've given all three verses have had this indication of heaven being up or out there. But heaven coming to earth. Yeah. Here. We don't typically think of it that way. We think that when we die, if we're in right standing with God, we'd go to heaven. Right?
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Our relatives who have passed they're up there in heaven, looking down on us, we use that type of language. And these three examples that you're giving. It's more like saying heaven's coming near. Heaven is coming down on earth as it is in heaven. [00:33:00] So we're going to make earth a type of heaven. <Yeah.>
And so, I mean, is that more of a image of heaven coming down to earth? And earth being what made perfect?
David: Yeah, I think that's what it's getting at. Again, conceptually, you could almost think of heaven is way up there. And we are down on earth. And this announcement that the kingdom of heaven is coming near. It's almost like that heavenly realm is drawing closer and closer and closer. You can't see my hands right now because this isn't a video podcast, right? But like, my hands are moving closer and closer together. Right, right. So the heavenly realm is coming closer and closer and closer.
And then this phrase that says your will be done. So your kingdom come and your will be done. Now there's some connotations there that that's the same thing. Let's talking about the same thing, right? Oh, okay. So, what does it mean for your kingdom to come? Well, part of it is that your will is being done. And where's that happening in heaven? No, it's [00:34:00] happening on the earth as it is already taking place in heaven.
J.R.: Yeah, exactly.
David: Right. Okay. And so we've talked about before and a lot of the myths, there's a connection between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. A lot of times, you could read a myth and you and I are going to go out to battle tomorrow. And a myth will talk about the fact that Apollo is on my side and let's say Hades is on your side. Right. And they actually do battle. And there's this idea that the outcome of our battle is actually dependent on the battle between the gods as well.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And we talked about this in the judges series.
J.R.: Right, yeah, that there's a reflection of the heavenly realm and the earthly realm.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: And that what happens on earth is typically a reflection of what's going on in the spiritual realm. Yeah. And so, bringing those two together, like, Jesus is saying in the Lord's Prayer is actually a little bit different image than what the average Christian would say about, where is heaven, where you go when you're die, you know, as far as [00:35:00] locality.
And so you're saying that heaven is an outgrowth of God's will being done on earth. Therefore connecting the heavenly realm and the earthly realm as one place.
David: Right. So one way I think we can think about the kingdom of heaven coming is that there is more and more alignment of God's will happening in this earthly realm. Just as it's being carried out in the heavenly realm. Like there's more and more of an alignment.
<Okay.> Then you might think of then the kingdom of God when it fully comes is there is no difference between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. God's will is fully being carried out through both realms, right? That's a way to conceptualize this idea of what the kingdom of God is, what it means that it's coming. And what it might mean in the end. It's God's will fully being done, right?
J.R.: Okay. Yeah.
David: That's one way to think about it.
J.R.: So Belinda Carlisle was right. Heaven is a place on earth.
David: There you [00:36:00] go.
J.R.: She was ahead of her time, man.
David: I didn't know she was as deep theologically.
Ooh, baby. Do you know what that's worth?
J.R.: It's exactly right.
David: That's it right there. Thanks for listening everyone.
J.R.: There you go. Just go and hit that on Spotify. And there you go. She sums it up quite nicely.
David: Yeah. That's true. So let's go with that for a second. It's a popular conception, right? That somehow earth would be a great place if we could unite it with heaven. Right. I mean, there's, you know, Belinda Carlisle didn't come up with that.
J.R.: It's not her original.
David: Heaven on earth. Right? Right. Well, it's kind of interesting to me just as you said that, that, yeah, but why do people talk about that all the time?
There's something innate in us that says the earth will be a great place when it's aligned with heaven. And that's what Jesus is saying here in the Lord's prayer.
J.R.: No. You're right. That was meant as a joke obviously, but yeah, the no. There's something to that. I think you're right. Yeah. It's a [00:37:00] recognition that a) as great as the advancements of where we've gotten as a society and things like that have gone, we're still far from heaven. And if we could bring heaven down. Yeah. This would be a wonderful place to be.
David: And we talked about examples of mythic language we use today, but if that's pretty common language. When there's wars going on in the middle east, right? When there's unrest, when there's political divide, right. We talk about it's a type of hell happening right now. And when there's peace. When everything's working like it's supposed to, we talk about man, this feels like heaven right now. How was your trip? Oh, it was heaven.
J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
David: So there's this innate understanding we have that when things are going bad, it's hell. And when things are going great, it's heaven. And why is it heaven? Because it's a uniting of the will of God. With what's happening on earth right now.
J.R.: Right. Yeah, you're either aligned with heaven or you're against it. Meaning that you've created your own dark place, your own hell. If your life is not aligned with the [00:38:00] spiritual realm.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Yeah. Well, you said earlier that as heaven gets closer, you will see God's will manifest itself more on earth. So is that you talking metaphorically, are you saying that we can kind of look around our world and see that it's getting a little bit closer to what God intended. Cause I ain't seeing that.
David: Yeah. That's been something that people have wrestled with ever since Jesus basically talks about this idea, right? As he says, it's coming. It's how close are we? And we're going to get to other verses where it gets that. And the tendency is for people to look around going, I don't see it. Are you seeing the same thing? Yeah, right.
J.R.: Things seem to be getting worse rather than better.
David: I think it's because we have this. Well, first of all, it's a mystery.
J.R.: Yeah, let's acknowledge that.
David: And again, you have to go back and you got to look at the whole story of the Bible because when he says things like that, I think we tend to have this idea of a linear progression. Right? Well, things should be better tomorrow [00:39:00] than they are today. If God's kingdom is coming next year should be better than this year. And that's a natural expectation. If I saying, look, heaven is getting closer and closer. Sure. But when you look at the whole arc of scripture, then, what does it talk about? If you look at Revelation, if you go back and look at the book of Daniel, right. Some of the prophecies of Jesus right before God's kingdom fully emerges, what happens? Literally all hell breaks loose.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So when you understand the full arc of scripture, the way I would answer that is look, this is to be expected.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Right. Things are going to get worse before they get better.
J.R.: Well, I think that's why there's so much talk right now about the end is near, you know, and I don't know what that means. I don't know. If we're talking about the end of the planet or the end of Western civilization, but there is kind of this understanding that, I don't think anybody's out there saying, man, you know, things are getting so much better. It's great out there. <Yeah.> And it's strange because our technology, our medicine, [00:40:00] all that is getting better. We're reducing poverty. We're reducing mortality rates, you know. A third of women or children don't die in childbirth anymore. <Right.> Things seem to be improving on one scale, but then on kind of a interpersonal of how we communicate with each other, how we are in society. How we are in politics, how our countries are run. It seems definitely to be getting worse.
And I don't think anybody is saying that, oh no, no. It's getting a lot better. You know, like everything else, like our technology seems to be getting. And so you're right. It kind of feels like somethings or getting to the end of something. You know, we're getting to the end. And I realized that every generation has their own moment. I imagine in World War II, there's a lot of people saying, oh yeah, this is the end.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: But at the same time, I think what's going on kind of in our culture. It does feel like it's the end of something and I really can't explain it.
David: So when you understand the kingdom of heaven there again, as the dawn of a [00:41:00] new era. < Yeah.> Part of what that entails is the end of this era, right? So, yeah. The Bible talks about these ages, right? And so this present age is the way that Jesus and a lot of people in the New Testament talked about the time we're in now versus the coming age of the kingdom of God. And again, we have a tendency to think, well, if God's kingdom was getting closer and closer, that's going to be a really smooth transition between this age and the coming age.
<Right.> And the Bible is like a read a little bit further, right? Yeah, this is not going to be a smooth transition. And again, if you think in terms of, you know, mythic terms here or symbolic terms, the end of one age and the beginning of another age is usually a very rough transition.
J.R.: Sure. There is no peaceful transfer of power when it comes to this. To the spiritual realm.
David: Right, yeah.
J.R.: Yeah. The gods don't give up that easy.
David: Right. So I think it's a natural way to initially think about it, but actually the Bible [00:42:00]now I think about it, it's actually pretty clear to say the kingdom of God is near. And by the way, that means it's going to be a really rough transition.
J.R.: Yeah. So it's not like you look out there and say, things are getting better. Getting more closely aligned to the will of God. Therefore heaven is close. We actually see the opposite. Kind of the long structure crumbling. Yeah. And therefore we say, okay, something's about to happen.
David: Yeah. All right. So let's move on to some more scripture. Cause there's a lot of scripture that talks about heaven, the kingdom of God, all these things we've been talking about. And again, we talked about this ancient understanding of the physical world and how it's connected to the spiritual world.
It's interesting, this link between heaven and earth in the New Testament is another thing I just checked out real quick, 85 times in the new Testament, heaven and earth are used together in the same verse. 'Heaven and earth' that phrase. Okay. 85 times. Which tells you. They're connected that the they're connected. These aren't just two unrelated things, right? <Right.> It's like you can't talk about one without talking about the other.
J.R.: Yeah, [00:43:00] sure.
David: So look at the great commission. Again, we're in Matthew. All these happened to be ma I guess I, maybe I just was searching Matthew when I was looking at some of these. So Matthew 28, "Jesus came to them and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Now that's kind of interesting.
< Sure.> He doesn't say all authority in heaven has been given to me.
J.R.: Yeah. On heaven and on earth. And since those two realms are connected, well, we basically read that. I just gloss over that and say, yeah, he means everywhere. Right in the spiritual realm, in the earthly realm. All authority has been given to Jesus.
David: Yeah, but again, Jesus was claiming earthly authority just as he was easily claiming heavenly authority. <Right.> And on the surface, you go well on the earth. What authority does Jesus have? Well, when you understand the two are connected, right? Authority in heaven meant he had authority on earth.
J.R.: Right.
David: And it may not have seemed like it at the time, but that's basically what he's saying.
J.R.: Yeah. And if you look at Jesus's life on earth, it doesn't look like he had much authority. He claimed [00:44:00] authority. Now he certainly had authority over disease and over death itself. Right. Raise people from the dead. But as far as anybody else giving him authority, Rome, giving him authority, the Pharisees, giving him authority. Yeah. There was a lot of pushback on that authority. So let's say he didn't live an authoritative life.
David: Well, so that's interesting. And it's going to play into this next verse we're going to read. We read that word authority and we think of usually like political authority, status. Status right. In the ancient world authority also very much have this connotation of what spiritual power are you operating from?
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Right. And so that changes the tone of some of that verse too.
J.R.: Right. We think of a authority as I have the authority to tell you what to do. Right. Yeah,
David: you got a new title, so now you have authority.
J.R.: Right, yeah. But the way they understood it they thought of authority as differently, right? And in Matthew 18, it says, "Jesus says, truly, I tell you, whatever you [00:45:00] bind on earth will be bound in heaven. And whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by their father in heaven." So that's a different type of authority. It's not an authority of status telling people what to do. I'm over you. I'm your boss, that type thing. It's authority that whatever you bind on earth is also going to be bound in heaven. So it's an authority that the heavenly realm and the earthly realm are going to be connected to each other.
David: Yes.
J.R.: Okay. So, whatever I declare on earth will then be declared in heaven. It's an authority that connects heaven and earth, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
David: Yes. You can think of it in terms of, then that authority almost has to encompass both realms. And that's what gives this word authority almost a spirit connotation. I almost said spiritual, but a spirit connotation because the apostle Paul, I believe in some places actually talks about rulers authorities, principalities [00:46:00] powers. And so authority in that aspect is actually talked about as a spiritual type of being.
J.R.: Right.
David: Right.
J.R.: Yeah. Who are you associated with?
David: Yeah. And so when Jesus says, "All authority has been given to me," Jesus is actually saying it's because of my connection to the father. That's my authority. It's not the title that Jesus had. <Right.> It's the connection that he had to well, he would say the true God. Versus the other authority that people were claiming.
It's interesting that one of the conversations that the Pharisees have with Jesus - I just remember this story - is Jesus heal someone. I was the blind man or a guy who couldn't walk. And clearly he's healed, right? It's not a question of, hey, what shenanigans did you just pull? They ask him by what authority did you do this?
J.R.: Exactly.
David: That's interesting.
J.R.: Yeah. Cause they weren't denying what happened.
David: They're not trying to say what parlor trick did you just pull?
J.R.: Right. This guy wasn't really blind and yeah. Yeah, no, they recognize that he did [00:47:00]something and the important answer to them was not, how did you do that? The important answer to them was by who's authority.
David: By who's authority did you do this? Yeah.
J.R.: And what they were asking is basically what spiritual entity is behind what you just did.
David: Yes.
J.R.: Because, Hey, I mean, if this came from Satan, if this came from something in the underworld, if this came from a rival god, we're going to have a problem with that.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Yeah. And so that's what mattered to them.
David: It's interesting. This whole conversation about authority, I didn't plan it this way, but this verse then, "whatever you bind in heaven will be bound on earth" and things like that. And I think sometimes it's I read that and I go, I'm not sure what this is talking about. <Yeah.> But when you understand the connection between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. When you understand what authority is, it's not a title that you hold. <Right.> It's who you are aligned with.
J.R.: Right.
David: You know, then that's what this is saying. Look, if you are aligned with God, which we go back to what does the gospel mean? Repent, align yourself with what God is doing, right? <Right.> So, if you are aligned [00:48:00] with God, if you are doing things by the authority of God, then whatever you do in heaven will be done on earth, right?
J.R.: Right. Sure. And when the disciples were performing miracles after Jesus had ascended, they say things like in the name of Jesus.
David: And that's what they're doing. They're claiming the authority.
J.R.: Yeah. They're calling Jesus's authority to that situation.
David: Yeah. So that's interesting because that's not a magic phrase in the name of Jesus. And sometimes we treat it like that.
J.R.: Abracadabra, right? Yeah. Right.
David: Well, I said in the name of Jesus and that girl didn't accept my date. Right, right.
J.R.: Did you try that?
David: Well, I tried a little bit, everything, you know, I was desperate there for awhile.
J.R.: Middle school. You'll try anything.
David: Yeah, sure. I commanded her in the name of Jesus. She still didn't go out with me.
J.R.: Wow,, and that didn't do it. Yeah.
David: Yeah, she should have said by what authority you saying. Right anyway. It's just interesting, this whole different perspective of authority, but yeah, when they say in Jesus name, that's not a magic spell they're [00:49:00] casting.
J.R.: Right.
David: They're actually making it clear whose authority they are operating under.
J.R.: Right. They're losing on earth. What is loosed in heaven? That's what they're calling for. Yeah. Right.
David: So we very much see the fate of heaven and earth being tied together. So again, let's stick with Matthew, right? Matthew chapter five, "Do not think that I've come to abolish the law or the prophets. I've not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Truly, I tell you until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."
Well, what does it mean? It doesn't say the earth just disappeared. It says the heaven and earth disappear.
J.R.: Yeah. Well, we talked about this in another podcast. A new Heaven and a new earth. Yeah. And that's interesting to me because of this idea of, we think that the earth is going to go away and that all that's going to be left is heaven. <Right.>
In one sense that's true. But not in the physical sense of the physical earth is going to be destroyed or done away with. And therefore we're going to [00:50:00] join Jesus in the clouds. It's more like in a sense that, both heaven and earth are actually gonna pass away. And we say that most people are like, what are you talking about? Heaven's not going to pass away.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: But then, later on in Matthew Jesus says heaven and earth will pass away. But my words will never pass away.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: What does he mean by that?
David: Well, yeah, if we're going to heaven and Jesus just said, heaven's going to pass away, right?
J.R.: Yeah. And so again, we're comfortable with the idea of this earth is going to be gone one day.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: But you're right. That they tie those two ideas together. Heaven, earth, heaven and earth, heaven and earth. You see it over and over and over again. And so even when they're talking about heaven and earth passing away, well, somehow we get it in our minds.. Well, yeah, it's just earth, but heaven will never pass away. Yeah, you.
David: Clearly there's a sense that it will <Right, yeah.> So what does that sense? <Yeah.> So we talked about this, I think it was Apocalypse Now. It was one of our not. It was one of our podcast episodes where we creatively borrow that title.
J.R.: Stranger Things.
David: Yeah. It was a Stranger Things. And I'll link that in the show [00:51:00] notes to that episode. So if you didn't listen to it, you can go back. Cause we do talk about this a little bit there, but there's kind of these different layers that we've been talking about then. The aligning of heaven and earth, which the Bible very much says those two are linked. There's also this idea of ages that we talked about just a couple of minutes ago, right? One way to conceptualize this is this age right now that we're in. There are the heavens and the earth and the underworld.
Right. Go back to that ancient understanding. This age will pass away. Now passing away does not mean <vaporized> vaporized, yeah. Big death star, you know. <Right.> Zaps everything. <Right.> It just means it's coming to an end. So there is a sense that the heavens in this present age will pass away.
J.R.: Right. So it's basically saying that the way we understand the earth today, that concept is going to pass.
David: Right.
J.R.: And the kingdom of God to go back to where we started. The kingdom of God may physically be here on earth. That's fine. That's [00:52:00] not what we're talking about. It's just that our understanding of the earth, the way it is, that's gonna fade off. Basically what's going to happen is here on earth, it is going to be fully aligned with God. And therefore heaven will be brought down to earth. And we'll live out a united spiritual and physical realm together. They're going to be in unison as opposed to being separate. One mirroring the other one. In God's kingdom, one is the other one. They're one in the same.
David: Yeah. So even as we're talking about this, I'm sitting here thinking it's so difficult to talk about.
J.R.: I'm wrestling with it as I'm speaking.
David: This language. And it's why Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like, right? So, even what we're just trying to do is say, okay, so this is how it's going to be.
What we should say is it will be like this, right? Here's the deal. I think we said this earlier, we're trying to conceptualize something that we've never experienced and that's part of the problem of saying, well, here's what heaven is.
J.R.: Right.
David: Well, we don't know. <Right, right.> And the best we know is Jesus said, well, it's like this.
J.R.: [00:53:00] Right. And so, yeah, I think we can learn a lot from that word. It's like this.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Cause it's Jesus trying to describe something that we can't possibly understand.
David: I think the best we can do at this point is to say, look, we want to understand it properly, the best we know how. Heaven and earth are inseparable, right. But there is a present age that will pass away and give way to a new age. <Right.> so you have to kind of keep those concepts. Right now, another dimension to this would be, in this present age, I can't operate in the spiritual realm. You could say, well, you could pray, but you know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about.
J.R.: Right.
David: When heaven and earth unite to use that language, I don't think there will be a separation anymore, if that makes sense. So the kingdom of God will basically tear down a veil right now that separates us from the heavenly realm.
J.R.: Yeah, well, that's funny, you said the veil imagery, because that's exactly what I thought of. <Okay.> And when Jesus breathed his last breath on the cross, [00:54:00] the veil was torn, right? There was an earthquake and the veil was torn. And it's almost. Yeah, and so it's like at that moment,
David: What does that mean?
J.R.: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think in the context that we're talking, it means that heaven and earth united for a moment. Not that everything was perfect on earth.
David: And will again, one day.
J.R.: But it was that imagery that heaven and earth united through the death of Jesus. And when Jesus finally died, that ripped away a separating factor between us and God.
David: Because what did the veil separate? The temple area from the holy the holy of Holies. <Yeah, exactly.> A place that people, unless you're that well, what the high priest and once a year or something like that. <Right. Yeah. Could go into.> It's funny because you run with that example and people could say to the high priests, what's the holy of Holies like? Well, it's like this. Yeah. Yeah, but you've never seen it nor will you ever see it, you know? <Right.> And live at least. <Right. Yeah, [00:55:00] exactly.>
But, yeah, it's interesting when he's dies on the cross, the veil is torn. Which is almost like, Hey, this is a foretaste of the kingdom of God, right? There's not going to be a veil anymore. <Yeah.> Yeah, that's really interesting.
J.R.: For a moment, heaven and earth came together.
David: Yeah. Before we wrap this up, then, I think, the other point that we've been trying to make, as we talk about this, this has been more of just a free flowing discussion, but I like it. , I think we have, hopefully shown the insufficiency of materialistic scientific language to describe what the Bible is talking about.
J.R.: Yeah, we kind of try to go down that road a little bit every episode. Yeah. The idea that the material language and understanding is insufficient. And that, you know, the more we understand materially, the more we kind of laugh at the mythic language. And I really do think that we're at kind of the end of hardcore materialism. You see, sort of the materialist atheist all the time.
They're dropping [00:56:00] like flies here lately. That you're seeing them come to the end of that worldview and it's like, Nope, it just doesn't quite describe good and evil. It just doesn't quite describe love and things outside of the material realm, like you said earlier.
As we see the crumbling of that worldview, the materialist worldview. I think there's a reaching back to the mythic. It's almost like we're wanting to go back and grab onto the mythic and we recognize no there's something there. It wasn't just silly language of monsters and gargoyles. Its something a little bit more deep and they're actually describing reality and they're actually describing reality in the real world, meaning the combined world of the spiritual world and this yeah, and the physical world.
David: The heaven, the earth, the underworld. <Right.> Yeah, I think that's right.
So, yeah, to kind of finish this thought on the fate of the heavens and the earth, then let's go through a couple more verses that we've jotted down here. So now we're into Revelation, which this is quoting Isaiah 65. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new [00:57:00] earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea." We talked about this.
J.R.: Yeah. I love that. I just love the fact that there's no sea. You go back to the episode if you want to hear that. I do love that concept because the sea represented chaos. They're not saying that there's not going to be an ocean. Yeah, it's all going to be dry land. They're just saying there is no chaos. There is no chaos of the sea anymore. And again, a new heaven, a new earth. And there was no longer any sea. So, yeah, there's going to be that transition from the old, to the new, from the current to the future.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: And it's going to be a united heaven and earth.
David: Yeah. And then we also talked about the new Jerusalem. The heavenly city again in Revelation 21, "I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven." Now, again, there's that mythic language.
J.R.: Yeah, sure.
David: Right? "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband." Okay. So it's not this material city up in the sky somewhere that's going to levitate down. It's going to be [00:58:00] what the perfect city. And we talked about this, cause it describes new Jerusalem as a cube, basically a big box. Yeah, it's a square it's literally a square.
J.R.: Right. Again, you get that image in your mind, you're thinking you're talking about a city that is as tall as it is wide and long? I don't even know what that looks like. But the point of that is, normal cities are miles and miles long miles and miles wide, but now we have one miles and miles high. And the imagery of that is that we're now connecting heaven and earth. That's why it's a cube.
David: Yeah. And a cube represents what? Something like perfection. All sides accounted for, right? Yeah. Which is the idea again, of no more sea, right? Because there's no more chaos.
J.R.: Right. Yeah. And again, it's not that there is no ocean anymore. It's just that mythically the mythic language is that there is no more chaos. There's now a unity between heaven and earth. Whereas, the cities that we have right now are on essentially a two dimensional plane, right?
David: Yeah.
J.R.: There's length and width. And now we're going to add height. We're [00:59:00] going to add that third dimension. We're going to unite heaven earth. That's the holy mountain. That's the ziggurat. That's the connection between heaven earth. That was the trees in Judges. That was the palms, right? They judged under the tree and the visual representation is they have the right to judge because they have this connection with heaven and earth.
David: Yeah, there, wasn't something special about the tree, but the tree represented, well, go back to this idea of authority, right? They're acting under the authority.
J.R.: Right
David: of heaven.
J.R.: Heaven is coming down
David: and the tree is what symbolized that.
J.R.: It's just an image of that. So the new Jerusalem. Yes, don't be thinking really tall buildings.
David: Yeah. So here's that verse it's interesting. "The city was laid out like a square as long as it was wide." Revelation 21:16. Yeah. What does that mean? We just talked about that.
J.R.: Exactly. Yeah. It represents not only completion. But unity between heaven and earth.
David: So the fate of the earth is inextricably tied to heaven. And so now we've seen like the ages passing. So this heaven and earth will pass away and give way to the new heaven [01:00:00] and earth. That does not mean this earth will literally be destroyed.
J.R.: I've heard that all the time, you know? It's like The earth was destroyed with a flood and in the future, it's going to be destroyed by fire.
Okay. so in everything we're saying that we're not talking about a physical location, why is it that we have such a profound image of heaven being up in the sky, being up in the clouds?
David: On one hand, I would say, because it's true.
J.R.: Okay.
David: On the other hand, I would say, but it's true. We talked about this earlier. It's true in the sense that it is an innate part of us. You ask anyone where's heaven. They don't point down.
J.R.: Right, yeah. Your eyes, lift up.
David: Yeah. And so there's something symbolically true that the heavens are up. <Right.> And that's actually the ancient worldview. We can't get hung up on this idea of location, but that's where heaven is. <Right.> In the same way that you always go up to Jerusalem. Has nothing to do with elevation.
J.R.: Right. Or north, south, east, west. Wherever you're coming from, you're going up to Jerusalem.
David: You go up to Jerusalem, right? [01:01:00] So it's kind of this symbolic space and location. It's not physical. So in some sense, I would say the answer to that is because it's true. But in another sense, I think over the last 500 years, the enlightenment, we've been so shaped by the scientific revolution, by reason. That we have a loss, the mythic meaning of things. And so again, I think what you're getting at, then.
We still think location-wise right. Heaven is up. Hell is down. When it says Jesus descends from the clouds, we think, okay, well, that's a clue as to the location of heaven, right? Instead of the symbolic language that, that means. <Yeah.> And I just think we. Gosh, we're not even aware of how much we're influenced by that. And it's hard for us to get back to that ancient worldview. <Yeah.> That is the better way of understanding the Bible.
J.R.: Right. You just can't separate it. The way we think mythically. And so to kind of tie it back [01:02:00] to this overall series. What does the idea of where heaven is at? Not obviously we're not talking about physical location again. What does that matter with the gospel message, with the announcement, right, of what's coming? How does that all tie together with the series that we're doing here?
David: So the first thing. I think we could say is that look, the gospel announcement is that a kingdom is coming. But also there's very much language that look it's already here. < Okay, right.> And about the time you think you got a good handle on the location of the kingdom of heaven, right? <Right.> We read Luke 17. "And once being asked by a Pharisee when the kingdom of God would come." So. Even back then, < Yeah.> rational language, right?
J.R.: They want time, they want location.
David: Let me put it in my I would say daytimer , my papyrus keeper or something.
J.R.: Let me chisel this on my stone tablet.
David: That would stink, right? Hold on.
J.R.: Yep. Give me another minute.
David: 10 minutes later. Yeah. So. when the kingdom of God would come. Jesus replied, " The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that [01:03:00] can be observed."
J.R.: Okay. So that's interesting, he just spits it out there.
David: He's like, you're asking the wrong questions, basically. "Nor will people say here it is or there it is." All right. So that's another interesting idea, "because the kingdom of God is in your midst." Now there's a lot of different ways that phrase is translated. Some of you may recognize it as the kingdom of God is among you. Right. I think Leo Tolstoy has a book, The Kingdom of God is Among You, right? So it's the same idea.
But the idea is that it's present now. It's interesting. One way to look at this is, but you're looking for a location, right? You're looking for a time. And you're not going to find it there, which tells you what? It's not in the realm that you're looking in.
J.R.: Right. You're looking in time, place location here in the material realm. And that's not where it's at.
David: Right. But what is it saying?
J.R.: Yeah, you're in the midst of it. I think this is interesting because we just said that anytime Jesus says something about the kingdom of heaven, he says, it's like this. It's like that. 20 [01:04:00] times he says that. But here in this verse, this is one of the few places where he doesn't say the kingdom of heaven is like. <Yeah.>
He just says, no, the kingdom of heaven is not something that can be observed. So he is being direct about, this isn't a comparison. This isn't language that we can understand to make it helpful. He's saying, no, this is the way it is. It is not here. It is not there. The kingdom of God is in your midst. <Yeah.> You can't see it.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Right. And so, yeah, man, that's actually puts a bow on this concept really nicely because it really does. Yeah. I kind of does tie it together and says that you're not on that plane. You're not in that realm, so you're not going to see it. But you're in the middle of it, nonetheless.
David: Yeah, exactly. Which to me is interesting because if you go back to this idea of that heaven is a place where I go, where I die. And I've said this before. What does that mean for this life? <Right.> Obey some rules, you know, maybe give up smoking or something like that.
J.R.: Right. Yeah. Do the best he can because [01:05:00] it's all being written down somewhere and you're going to be judged for it. But the way I read this is no, no, no. You're actually being prepared. We're in the midst of the kingdom of heaven right now.
David: Yeah. Another way to say it is you're closer than you think.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: It's like Where is heaven? It's like, well, what are you doing right now?
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Are you aligned with God? <Right.> It's real close then.
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Or are you, out at the adult bookstore that you saw earlier today?
J.R.: Right.
David: That wasn't there when we were kids.
J.R.: I was not by the way. I promise.
David: Disclaimer.
J.R.: Right. No, exactly.
David: Like if that's where you are. No, the kingdom of God is probably not near you.
J.R.: Yeah. And you're right. That is helpful because I tend to think when I screw up, when I do something stupid and I'm not aligning myself with God. It's almost like I have a tendency to say, look, man, everybody messes up. I'll ask forgiveness. I'll try to do better next time. Yeah. And it's almost like that my heavenly self will be so far removed from my earthly [01:06:00] self. That it almost won't matter. Right? And Jesus, I think is saying no, no, no. It's closer than you think it's actually in your midst. And the way you act right now is you're either aligning yourself with God or not, and it's not that you're going to be snapped out of this world and spit into heaven with just a new heart and a new mind. And I'm not going to think any of the bad thoughts and I'm just going to live this perfect life. <Yeah.>
It's almost like, no, no, no. You're actually in the midst of it right now. And so the way you live right now matters in a very tangible way. <Right.> It's just that I can't see the way the two realms are connected because there's a veil in between us. But the way I live matters because that's actually who I am.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: Yeah, that's kind of heavy.
David: And it doesn't matter what's going on in the larger world, because we talked earlier about, well, things just don't seem like they're progressing towards God's kingdom, but I think this actually says, no, no, no. What about your household? Yeah. What about your friends? What about your family?
J.R.: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I forget the Republican and Democratic [01:07:00] conventions happening right now. <Right.> You're not going to find heaven there anyway.
J.R.: Yeah, exactly. But you can align yourself with heaven in your small sphere of influence.
And maybe we've all experienced that phenomenon of man I'm having a terrible day and I'm griping and I'm short tempered. I'm short with everybody and I kinda bring hell up when I lived that way. You know? <Yeah.> And it affects the people around us affects my family. And you're right, if I can align myself with God in the proper way, I can actually bring a bit of heaven. I can reveal heaven to those around us. And we can live in peace and harmony, at least in my own sphere.
David: Yeah. My roof can be a place of peace. Yeah, my family, my household can be a little piece of heaven on earth to use that Belinda Carlisle's line.
J.R.: Belinda, we're going to have to give her some kind of credit here.
David: I didn't know that originated with her. <Yeah.> There's one more thought, I guess to tie this together, just as you were talking about that is there's a Psalm that [01:08:00] basically talks about the joy of repentance. And so I go back to this idea of part of the gospel announcement is repent, right? <Right.> And, for me, I guess I tend to think of repentance as getting my hand smacked.
J.R.: Yeah, it's at the very least it's embarrassing. <Yeah. Yeah.> Standing before God and your sort of saying, yeah, I messed up here.
David: But there's another perspective, if you look at church history, some of the early church fathers that talk about this idea of the joy of repentance. And when I think well, if I got to repent. I'm thinking, boy, I'm far from heaven right now, right? Yeah, but it's almost like, no, it's the opposite.
J.R.: Yeah, as a course correction and there is joy in that; I'm on the right path again.
David: Then heaven is close to you right now.
J.R.: Yeah, no.
David: That is a joyous thing.
J.R.: Yeah, you're right.
David: You know, and that's not where my mind goes, but that's. Well, it's a biblical.
J.R.: No, that's a profound reality.
David: Yeah. No, this was interesting and not at all the way I first kind of outlined it, but yeah, that was interesting.
J.R.: [01:09:00] No, that's a lot of fun. It was kind of like the last episode. It's one of those things that I don't know, maybe we'll start the next episode with the thoughts I have. Yeah, you can start out with your thoughts, as I mull it over. But yeah, it does, it clarifies a little bit for me what the idea of just like last episode, what the idea of what the gospel announcement actually is.
<Right.> And this is very helpful that the kingdom of heaven. Stop thinking in terms of heaven being up there or this place that we go off in the future when we die. And actually we can align and bring a little bit of it here on earth, at least in our own realm and sphere of influence when we align ourselves with God.
David: Yeah.
J.R.: I think that's a much more helpful way to practically live.
David: Oh yeah.
J.R.: Man you talk about do what you want and ask forgiveness later. And you know, all the misconceptions about religion in general, that it's basically here to kill all my fun and if I'm enjoying it, then it's probably a sin. It just kind of washes all that away. It's just, no, man, just align yourself with God. And there is going to be [01:10:00] joy in that because you're course correcting and aligning yourself with actually the way reality works. And you're going to find yourself in the long run, in tune more with the rhythms of the way God meant for us to live. And we're in tune with that. We're in step with that as opposed to fighting against it, which is, quite honestly, my normal default nature, right. To fight against it all the time.
David: Yeah. Yeah.
J.R.: This was good, man. I liked it.
David: Yeah. And this is only part two. So we've talked about what is the gospel? We talked about heaven and earth today. Next episode, we are going to talk about the meaning of signs and wonders. And again, we're going back to first century. What did they mean?
J.R.: There we go. UFO's man. <UFO's?> Absolutely. Signs and wonders. We can do the wheel in the wheel?
David: Yeah, the wheel.
J.R.: Here we go. Alright.
David: So what was happening when Jesus was casting demons out and healing people.
J.R.: Okay.
David: We're going to talk about that because it ties into the gospel announcement.
J.R.: Okay, good. I look forward to that one.
David: All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed that [01:11:00] discussion. Hey, if you have any thoughts about anything we've said, if you disagree with us or have different ideas, you can get a hold of us. You can join our Facebook group. Again, want to remind you there's a link if you open the show description the first link you see says, have questions, comments? Click on that link. If you're from your phone and you can text us. Just ask us questions. We'd be happy to talk about them on our next episode. You can always join our Facebook group. Hey, we have a newsletter too. We're not going to spam you. I've seen some people sign up. So that's encouraging. We put that link in there. <Right.> I got to send one out soon, too, so, okay. Join soon and you'll get the next newsletter. And we will talk to you next episode. All right. We'll see UFO's signs and wonders.
J.R.: There we go. Can't wait.
