The Gospel Announcement: Reigning with God

As we conclude The Gospel Announcement series, we tackle the question: What does it truly mean to reign with God? 🌍✨ Is heaven just a peaceful vision of sitting on clouds strumming on harps, or is there a deeper biblical meaning behind the saints judging the world? 👑 Join us as we explore the powerful concepts of judging, reigning, and actively participating in God's kingdom—both in the present and the future. 📖

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Chapters

• 0:00 Reflecting on The Gospel Announcement Series
• 6:48 What Does It Mean to Reign with God?
• 14:03 Jesus' Teachings on Judging and Reigning
• 28:55 Paul's Perspective on Judging and Authority
• 33:26 Revelation and the Final Judgment
• 39:25 The Garden of Eden Parallel
• 43:44 The Divine Council
• 55:02 Preparing to Reign with God

Transcript

Reigning with God

J.R.: [00:00:00] So, hopefully he's not gonna be in Gladiator 2 looking like that.

David: Is he gonna be in Gladiator 2 or not? 

J.R.: No, no, I don't think so. I don't think it has anything to do with him. Well, he died. Well, that was a dumb 

David: Yeah, we'll cut that out because we sound like idiots. 

Can you believe we're already at the end of the series on The Gospel Announcement? 

J.R.: Yeah, I know. It kind of flew by. 

David: Yeah. We're going to talk about what it means to reign with God today. But a couple of episodes ago, I shared how I was processing things that had come up for me personally in this series and kind of putting some things together. What's been going on with you during this series? Some of the ideas we've been batting around. 

J.R.: What's kind of hit me about this whole series is just kind of the clarifying a lot of the terms that we as church going Christians, the language we've used our whole lives. And we don't really appreciate the weight that's behind these ideas, right? So we'll say things like signs and wonders. Oh, we're talking about miracles. Or we'll say something about today what it means to reign with God. Oh, [00:01:00] yeah That's what we're going to do in heaven. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: That it's so easy to kind of just throw out these terms that we've heard all our lives and to say well, let's stop for a second and really understand. Let's define, What do we mean by God's kingdom? What do we mean by heaven? And when you define those things out, man, I mean, not surprisingly, it opens up a whole can of worms. <Yeah.> You know, it gets us all in this kind of twist, and it's like, man, I never thought about it that way. And it gives you a fresh way to look at these old words that we kind of throw out there from time to time.

David: Yeah, it seems like every now and then someone will come along and say, hey, have we considered what this term means in church circles. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And. all of a sudden reinterpret things for you. And you go, Oh, wow, this is like being reintroduced to some aspect of Christianity all over again. And that's always actually fun when that happens.

J.R.: And it's why kind of this phenomenon of these intellectuals that are turning to the Bible here in the past, what, five, six, seven years that we're watching happen. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: The reason I think that's so interesting to [00:02:00] us is because you have these super smart people that in some ways don't know as much as you and I because they weren't raised in the church. But then they're also kind of taking these words and these terms that you and I take for granted and they're wrestling with it and dissecting the ideas behind it. And that's when you and I are going Oh, wow, I've heard that word my whole life and it didn't take on that meaning. 

David: Yeah, I never wrestled with that word. But it's amazing to see someone with a fresh perspective wrestle with a concept that probably we just take for granted.

J.R.: Right. I forget if I said this in a previous podcast or if I said this off the air, but one of the things I loved about C. S. Lewis is that he would answer questions that I never even thought to ask. Did I say that in another episode? Yeah, you did. 

David: I remember that. 

J.R.: Well, you know rehash it. But you see these outsiders take a look at what we've taken for granted and dissect it and you're like wow, man. That's such an interesting take. And I just sort of lumped it in with oh the kingdom of God, that means heaven.

Oh, you know, reign with God. That means [00:03:00] we're just gonna be up there strumming our harps on a cloud, right? Yeah, we don't appreciate insight that they bring when they bring it in with fresh eyes. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Well, I know I've had a couple of conversations with friends around this series. I think you said you have too, so. <Right.> It is interesting because, yeah, it seems to be one of these topics that we need to remind ourselves every now and then of, what did all this originally mean, and when's the last time I really wrestled with it?

I think for me, someone like N. T. Wright, about twenty years ago, did this for me when he started talking about the context of New Testament and what these things meant in their original terms. And he's another one that you almost just have to redefine all these words in your head as he's actually laying them out and understanding them. So yeah, it's pretty cool when that happens. 

J.R.: Yeah. I've had a couple of conversations myself and it usually starts off with somebody casually using the word gospel or something like that. And being that we just did this podcast about what the gospel really was and that it's an announcement that [00:04:00] means that you have to change your life. You can't just hear the word anymore and it have the old assumed understanding that you had previous to it. Then it brought it up, I stopped and I was like, well, what do you mean by gospel? And he looks at me like, what do you mean? What do you think I mean?

I mean the gospel. What do you, you know, everybody knows what that means. I'm like, well, no, not really. We don't, we don't have a good understanding of it. And so it has an opportunity to kind of start conversations when you really drill down into the meaning of some of these words that we've taken for granted.

David: Yeah. So funny story. Our mother was here a couple of weeks ago and we took her - I'm talking about me and my wife - we took her to the beach to watch the sunset. And as we're pulling in, this guy, spiffy guy in a fedora, drives in a convertible, and he gets out of the car, and it's, he had some sticker in his, on the side of his car about Jesus. And I thought, oh, okay. Interesting looking guy. 

J.R.: Millennial. 

David: And he said, no, it was an older guy, actually. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. 

David: And there was an older woman in the back of the car, and he picks her up out of the car, so he didn't have to open the door. Anyway, interesting [00:05:00] character. He said something about going to heaven when you die, and I kind of gave him a thumbs up.

We were trying to get down to the beach to watch the sunset, right? I kind of gave him a thumbs up, you know. Good, I'll see you there. Kind of made a joke like that. And he said, oh great, you know, good to hear. And then he stopped and he turns around and he wanted to press the idea of do you really understand what it means to be saved?

And I thought, you know, God bless you dude, but I'm good I'm trying to get down to the beach to watch sunset, you know. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. 

David: And so he said something about, And do you have to turn from your sin? And I said, yes. And he goes, no, no, no. And then he starts walking up to me and he goes, no, no, no, no, no. And it's like, dude, I don't want to get into this right now, but we're in the middle of this gospel series, you know. And I'm thinking, yeah, we, could really have it out right now if you want to really get into the details of it. But I just said, look, man, I'm good. We're trying to get down to the beach to watch the sunset.

J.R.: You need a card that just says Navigating An Ancient Faith. Say, listen to this.

David: I should. Yeah, I should have done that. But it was just funny because it was one of those things, you know. He said something and it's like, okay, in this [00:06:00] revised understanding or this refreshed understanding in my mind, I'm like, I could really start picking apart that argument that you're trying to make right now. But I, you know, didn't want to go there, not the right place, not the right time.

J.R.: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it's interesting. Four minutes to sunset. 

David: Yeah. Interesting cat though, you know, is a little spiffy hat and it's convertible. But yeah, I don't know. He was heading down to the beach, I guess, to share the gospel. 

J.R.: Yeah, head back next week, maybe you'll run into him. 

David: Maybe I'll run into him again, get into a good debate.

J.R.: But no, these are great conversations because we kind of I don't know, defining some terms a little bit clearer as an adult as opposed to what I heard in Sunday school my whole life. 

David: Yeah, yeah. Anything, I think, can get stale if it's not examined, every now and then. And every now and then you run into something that, boy, takes on a fresh perspective.

J.R.: Yeah, you kind of got to turn some things upside down to, you know, to really understand it. You're right. 

David: Yeah, so today we're going to talk about what does it mean to reign with God. And as a segway into this, I'll kind of share with you how I stumbled onto this question. Because I'm not sure I ever thought about it.

And I maybe like [00:07:00] all these terms, you know, or you think about it and you think, oh, yeah, we'll go to heaven. That's what it means to reign with God. But it was posed to me one time. I was driving up to the cabin. This is where a lot of these things happen because the cabin is a long drive for me. But it's about three of these long form podcasts, which is perfect, right?

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Throw on a couple podcasts, you're there. But one of them just as I was pulling into the mountains. I was going to be there in about 30 more minutes. It was a good episode, but then at the end of this podcast I was listening to, the person just kind of threw out there, and you know, we'll reign with God one day.

And then he just says, and what does that even mean? Well, it was one of those things where it stuck with me the rest of the week, because I thought he was going to answer the question, and he didn't. <Right.> Right? And so some of the concepts you talked about. So I just started taking notes, but it's one of these questions that just sat with me all week long while I was at the cabin, like, yeah, what does this mean to reign with God?

And well, you've kind of shared what your thoughts were, you know, sitting on a cloud in heaven, strumming a harp. 

J.R.: Well, I'm being a [00:08:00] little bit humorous there, but no, just the idea of reigning implies that there's work to be done, which is already a little bit different than my understanding of heaven, right? 

David: Yeah, like there's no work to be done. There's nothing to do, basically. 

J.R.: Right, and I understand maybe I'm not going to be digging ditches or roofing houses, but there is some kind of work to be done, right? That a kingdom requires governing or leading, and so when I think about reigning with God, again, I'm thinking after Jesus' return, what does it mean to reign with God?

I thought everything was going to be perfect. I thought everything, you know, there is going to be no problem, evil or sin in this world. And so what are we governing? What are we leading? 

David: Yeah, and does God really need our help? That's one thing that crossed my mind. Like, what am I going to contribute?

J.R.: That's the most obvious thing. What am I bringing to the table? 

David: Yeah, you know, sometimes you find yourself in a room full of really, really smart people and they say, Hey, what's your opinion? And you're like, 

J.R.: I know, I hate that. 

David: Why are you asking me? Like, what am I going to contribute? 

J.R.: Yeah, you desperately feel like you need to say something. So the best you can come up with was, Well, I listened to this Joe Rogan podcast the other day and he says this. Yeah. the [00:09:00]most insight I can give. Yes, you're right. So what are we going to bring to the table here? 

David: Yeah, that's one of the things that crosses my mind. So, on one of the trips I took my wife and I went to Scotland one time. And I think it is Edinbrough Castle. There's castles everywhere there, but there was this big oversized throne, right? And so it was this really old building, but for whatever reason it was a big oversized throne. And I don't know whether it was old, intentionally built that way, or it was just kind of a prop that you could take your picture in, because, you know, everyone wanted to jump on this big throne and take a picture, right?

J.R.: Is it like the giant rocking chair that you see on the side of the road at these gas stations.

David: Yeah. Yeah. I've seen these at other places too. 

J.R.: So it's it really is like that big. 

David: Yeah, it was a really big throne. You look like a little kid if you're sitting on it. 

J.R.: Yeah, you have to climb up in your feet.

David: Yeah, you got to climb up and you know, everyone's taking their pictures. And that's the image that came to me when I initially thought of this idea of what it means to reign with God that, you know, God's kind of, he'll let us in the throne room and, we can take our selfie on his throne and so we can put it on our [00:10:00] Instagram account or something like that.

<Right.> And he kind of rubs our hair and says, okay, you rascal, get out of here, you know. Get out of here. 

J.R.: Dad has work to do. 

David: Yeah, that's kind of the extent of our contribution of reigning with God. Anyway, that was a funny image that I had is, sitting in a big, oversized chair, pretending, Hey, get a picture of me. Look at me. I'm reigning. Ha ha ha. You know, but really I'm just this little kid, right? 

J.R.: Well, it's funny because , both of the things that popped in our head, when we said reign with God, you immediately think, well, what do I have to offer, which is definitely a good point. And my thought was, yeah, what is there to, govern?

What is there to rule over? I thought it was all perfect. <Yeah.> So it is. So right out of the gate here, we have this word that we take for granted, reign with God, and we've already got some complicated ideas. Some complicated thoughts behind it now. 

David: Yeah, it at least reveals what your initial instinct is. And I'm sure a lot of people listening to this would have similar thoughts. You know, yeah, what am I going to contribute? 

J.R.: Right.

David: So I think the other extreme that we can go to, though, is that, we've been talking about God's kingdom, right? The coming of [00:11:00] God's kingdom depends on something that I have to do. And I've actually seen some people who walk around with that burden, that somehow heaven is dependent on me. And maybe it's the opposite of, well, there's nothing that I can contribute to this. is that, hey, this is all dependent on me. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And I don't know if you've seen that in people, but every now and then I run into someone who seems to feel the burden that I have things to do now or God's plan isn't going to unfold the way it should, right? 

J.R.: Right. And that would be, that would be quite a burden to carry around. You're right. I don't necessarily have that myself, but yeah, that would be, that would be quite a weight to have to deal with. That if I don't do something correctly, then - you kind of see it in the whole God's will episode that we did, oh, it's been several episodes ago now, but this idea that if I do something wrong to deviate from God's will, it's going to put me off the path, and I'm not going to go to the right college, and therefore I'm not going to meet the woman of my dreams, or the woman that God has for me, and therefore I'm not going to get the job that God has for me.

You know, it's kind of this [00:12:00] house of cards that we build in our own mind that if we do the wrong thing <yeah.> that the entire plan, God's plan is gonna come crumbling down. Which is a little bit absurd, but it's sort of that idea, same thing that if I don't do the right things that I'm actually a hindrance to God's kingdom coming on earth.

<Yeah.> And yeah. Yeah. That's a little bit of a too heavy of a weight to carry around ourselves 

David: Yeah, and so I think that's another extreme that people can go to, the extreme from, you know, there's nothing for me to do, what am I going to contribute? So those are just some ideas that we're batting around.

So let's look at what the Bible actually does say about this idea of reigning with God. Does it even talk about reigning with God, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, I googled that and I found a couple in Revelation. 

David: Okay, Revelation. It's, everything's always in Revelation. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, which is only going to complicate things.

David: Yeah, so, as a means of review, so remember we've been talking about this idea of the gospel announcement is that God's kingdom is emerging, whether we align ourselves with it or not. We said that from the first episode, right? <Right.> But it doesn't [00:13:00] mean that we can't somehow participate in what's going on.

And I think you see that idea of participating with God throughout the Bible. But let's jump in and specifically looking at this idea of what we're talking about when we talk about reigning with God. Okay? 

J.R.: Yeah. And what we've done every episode is we sort of take this idea and we say, now how did the ancients understand this?

 I know what my local church thinks about the word gospel. What, but what did the ancient people understand about that word gospel? I mean, that's kind of how we started.

David: Yeah, that's how i've been framing all this. 

J.R.: So, yeah so not only what does the bible say, but how did the ancients understand this idea of reigning with God? Yeah, maybe that's a good place to start. 

David: Yeah, and I don't know that it was familiar in the church circles that we grew up in but I know it goes back a long way. You might have heard this phrase, "The saints will judge the world." 

J.R.: Yes. 

David: And so, yeah. You've heard that phrase. I'm kind of familiar with it, but again, didn't really know what it meant. So where does that come from? I guess we can start maybe with the life of Jesus when Jesus drops some [00:14:00] hints about saints judging the world. Okay? 

So. Okay. Matthew chapter 19, and we're going to look at verse 28, but this is conversations that Jesus is having with his disciples. He talks about it's hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. So he's talking about the kingdom of God here, and "when the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, well, who can be saved?"

And Jesus response is, "With man, this is impossible. With God, all things are possible." And then in verse 28 of Matthew 19, "Jesus said to them, 'truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'"

Okay, so, in that statement then, Jesus makes reference to this idea that his followers will judge with him. When Jesus is sitting on his throne, and of course sitting on your throne, that's a picture of reigning, right? <Sure.> Governing your kingdom. And so Jesus said, when I'm sitting on the throne, you [00:15:00] will sit with me and judge with me.

J.R.: Well, it says 12 thrones, that coincide with the 12 tribes of Israel? <Yeah.> So are we talking about the 12 disciples here, or? 

David: Yeah, so that's a possibility. That's where we're going to start, but I think what we hope to show is that Jesus may or may not be referring to the 12 disciples here. But throughout the rest of Scripture, it expands it to say, no, anyone who's following God will participate in this manner.

But yes, you're right. In this particular verse, the question that arises is, so is he talking with his 12 disciples, and he's referring to them? Or is he referring to anyone that follows after him, right? 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, he doesn't clarify that, other than the Twelve. 

David: Yeah, and certainly there's symbolism there with the Twelve Disciples and the Twelve Tribes, right?

J.R.: Oh, sure, yeah.

David: Yeah, but that's an unmistakable link. So there is this idea that the Twelve Disciples kind of almost symbolically become the new Twelve Tribes, or an extension of them, you might say. 

J.R.: Well, and not to get into too much of pre-millennial, post-millennial amillennial rapture [00:16:00] talk not to get too deep into the weeds there Again, I go back to my original question if heaven is perfect. What is there to judge? So is this referring to like the final judgment or the thousand year reign of Christ? Is this implying that there's going to be a need for ongoing judgment after the second coming is complete? What's your take on that?

David: My take is that Revelation talks , a lot about, this idea, but gosh, good luck interpreting Revelation in any kind of non controversial, way. But I do think the picture is that when God's kingdom fully comes, there will be an entire process then of, what would you say, like, restoring order to the chaos.

And that doesn't happen just overnight. You know, sometimes I think we have this picture of, well, God's gonna come back, right? Jesus is gonna come, the rapture whiffed us all the way to heaven, and then things will be perfect. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And whatever happens on earth, who cares? Because the earth is gonna burn. We've talked about this, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: But again, when you understand this idea of the kingdom of God, that's not actually the picture that takes place. [00:17:00] The picture is, Christ will return to the earth, and we'll establish his kingdom, and then there's going to be this process of restoring order to the chaos.

And so I think, my initial response to that would be that part of the judging is to participate. Because what are you judging, right? Well, you're judging all of the chaos, right? You're judging the demonic activity. You're judging the fallen angels. Because, and again, we get into the weeds on this, but in Revelation there's some idea that those things will continue for a time before they are finally judged completely.

J.R.: Done away with. Yeah. That's right. Okay. 

David: So I think at least in some of these passages, when it's talking about judging it's referring to that whole process of the restoration of order from the chaos. 

J.R.: Right. Right. The process of restoring the new earth and the new heaven. 

David: Yeah, and judging, too, that's an interesting word, because we think of judging as a bad thing. Don't judge me, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Well, in the Bible, judging is nothing more than restoring [00:18:00] things to how they should be. And so it's more like a judge that rectifies the situation and sets things right again. You know, in that case, you wouldn't tell a judge to say, man, he's being so judgmental. Even though that's exactly what he did, right?

He issued a judgment. And if it's in your favor, that's a good thing, right? He's actually fixing something that was broke. He's restoring order and setting things back on the right path. And in that case, then judging is actually a positive thing. 

J.R.: Right. The bringing about of justice. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: And that's certainly a positive thing.

David: That's a positive thing. So, I think we can get hung up on this idea of judging sometimes, because it has a negative connotation to us most of the time. 

J.R.: I think Jordan Peterson says that the ideal is always a judge. And I like that, not that that's a complete definition, but that anything that's ideal is in itself a judge, because it tells me where I fall short.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: So Jesus is a judge, not because he sits there and tells me every time I mess up and says, do this and don't do that. It's because when [00:19:00] you live the perfect life, that shows how far I am from that ideal. <Yeah.> And so by definition it becomes a judge. 

David: Yeah. And that's true. 

J.R.: So yeah, there's some aspect of judging that that implies also.

David: Yeah, that's a good point. That's another aspect of it, that when actually when I have my life together and things are orderly and going well for me, you could say that I'm not saying it's the ideal, but you could say that it's judging things that are not in order around me. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And that doesn't make me a judgmental person, but like you said, the ideal, by definition, judges things that aren't meeting the ideal around it. And so yeah.

J.R.: We all have family dynamics. Yeah, we all have these family dynamics where we see this play out Where we're not trying to have the perfect life and the perfect kids and the perfect job. But compared to the chaos in some people's lives, there's a tendency for them to look at you like oh, you know, you've just got your life all together and you're just perfect.

<Yeah.> When that's not what I'm trying to do, but you know, I'm like well, I have a house and I've had a job steady job [00:20:00] for 20, 30 years and I don't even know if that's the ideal. Compared to some people man, that's just way up there. 

David: Yeah, the stereotypical share good news and someone's response is you think you're better than me?

J.R.: Like oh, yeah, exactly. 

David: No, but but you're right. That's example of judging the chaos, right? Even if you're not trying to. 

J.R.: If you want to know who a true friend is share good news with them and watch their reaction. 

David: Oh yeah, yeah.

J.R.: And there's a lot of truth to that too. 

David: Yeah. Will they celebrate with you or get threatened by it? Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, well they roll their eyes and it's like, oh, of course you got a new great job, or of course you won the lottery, right? 

David: Yeah, all that good stuff always happens to you. I never get a break, right? 

J.R.: That's right. If you see those red flags, you know, well, just understand the dynamic of your relationship with your friends.

David: Yeah. Yeah, so I think all that goes into the idea of judging. And so when we expand this definition of what it means to judge something, then I think we can start to see that, even in God's kingdom, there will be a lot of judging that needs to happen, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: That's not that much of a stretch.

J.R.: Out of [00:21:00] necessity. If you think that the world is a messed up place, then you have to think, also, it needs judging. It needs the ideal to look at. <Yeah.> It needs completion. It needs justice. 

David: Yeah, I think that's true. And it really gets into that idea, we were talking a little bit beforehand, before we started, of, is heaven the place where everything's instantaneously perfect, or is it a process?

And, I don't know, I think it might be more of a process, and we will actively participate. Part of what reigning with God means, not to jump ahead, I think is actively participating in that process of setting the world to rights, right? 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, if you believe in heaven being the perfect place, then the Bible makes it clear that it's gonna take a process to get there.

David: Right, yeah. 

J.R.: Lest we have nothing to judge. 

David: Yeah, so, there will be plenty to judge, I think. That's what we're saying here. 

J.R.: Exactly. 

David: Now this one particular verse, again, whether it's talking about the twelve disciples or all followers, it's kind of unclear here. But I think what we're gonna go through [00:22:00] in the next couple of verses here, and especially once we get to the Apostle Paul, Paul seems to at least believe that this is a reference to all believers, all followers of Christ.

J.R.: Right, okay. 

David: But before we leave the teachings of Jesus, one chapter earlier, Matthew chapter 18, and this one kind of occurred to me, that it's similar to this idea of binding and loosing, okay? And in Matthew chapter 18, what is it, verse 15 through 20, he talks about if your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault. You know, if it's just between the two of you, if they listen to you, then you're good. If they will not listen, take it to the church. So he's talking about really the church almost judging, right? 

J.R.: Right. Kind of church discipline.

David: Yeah, church discipline along these things. But then he makes this statement. "He said, truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. And whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Now again, this is not talking just to his disciples. He's talking about to anyone who follows him, right? <Right, right.> So this is an [00:23:00] interesting verse because I think it starts to introduce this idea again of if you are aligned, and so many of these things start to tie together. If you are aligned with the kingdom of God, when you, what, proclaim some things as good when you judge other things. Right? And that's this idea of binding and loosing. Then, if you are aligned with the kingdom of God, then it said, whenever you do that, whatever happens on earth will happen in heaven. Right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. So there's a couple of concepts there. Number one, I think it starts to get more into this idea of what it means to reign with God. So it shows that individuals can actively participate in this life, right, of setting the worlds to right around them.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And when you're aligned with God's kingdom, then here's that interplay between heaven and earth again that we talked about in previous episodes. 

J.R.: Yes. Yeah, already implies the connection between the material and the spiritual. 

David: Yeah, exactly.

J.R.: Just in that phrasing. You're right. As you're speaking, I'm sitting there thinking, [00:24:00] yeah, this actually kind of makes sense. The implication that there's a connection between the spiritual and the material, but as I'm sitting here thinking about it, I'm also sitting here thinking that when you align yourself with the kingdom of God, the things you do on earth or the things that you do in this material world will have, what, will have eternal consequences in a good way? Like, that will go to your credit in the heavenly realm, perhaps? 

David: Yeah, and I think even more so, like, we'll have the backing of the spiritual realm. 

J.R.: Yeah, maybe that's a better way to say it. Yes. 

David: And I think that gets to this idea of prayer, too, because I think it even says it in this passage or the one we just looked at where, oh, it says, where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I with them. In Matthew 18:20, a couple of verses down, but there again, that idea that where two or three are gathered and aligned, and when you pray, I'm with you, I'm present. And that's where Jesus, I think, can say things like, you know, look, I'm only doing the will of the father and whatever you pray in my name, the father will [00:25:00] do, right? <Right.> Which is this idea that when you're aligned with God's kingdom, you can ask God things and it will happen. But with the big caveat of what does it mean to be aligned with God? Because that's not just like a magic genie, right? <Yeah. Yeah.> That's the common, but there is this alignment going on.

J.R.: That the natural outworking is going to be the backing of the heavenly realm, something like that. <Yeah. Yeah.> The alignment of the heavenly realm, the natural outworking is going to be the alignment of the heavenly realm with the earthly realm. And so it gives you a chance to actually bring heaven down to earth, so to speak, and participate in the kingdom of God, even though we're still in this fallen world.

David: Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of better ways to kind of spell that out, but yeah. 

J.R.: Well, I think you did it justice when you said that, you know, ask anything in my name and I'll be given it to you. We all know. We've all had the conversation about it, right? I asked for the Ferrari, and that's the way that works, you know?

<Yeah.> As long as I ask in Jesus name. And we all know that that's sort of an absurd way to look at it, but yeah. But that when it's asked in the right manner, when [00:26:00] the alignment is correct, then everything you ask is going to be part of the heavenly plan anyway. 

David: Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. If I am totally aligned with the will of God, and I am asking God for things with that alignment, then God is more than happy to let me participate in the outworking of His will. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. Okay. No, that makes sense. Hey, listen, if you have kids, you get it. When they ask, when they ask for the right things, when they ask you know pitch them the keys to your new car, you know, so they can go out on Friday night that's not really aligning themselves with the father. That's asking for trouble. You're probably going to get shot down on that one. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: But when you're asking, for hey dad, can you give me help on this homework? You know, can you help me out here? Yeah, I'm more than happy to do that because everything seems to be aligning with what I want for their lives anyway. And so i'm happy to assist and be part of their proper alignment for their own lives, right? Something like that. So yeah, you can kind of, that makes sense in a kind of a practical way.

David: Yeah, that's a good example. I [00:27:00] remember as a kid, I used to, I didn't like mowing the lawn particularly, but I knew it was my chore and I would get out there some Saturdays and I would tell dad, Hey, I'm going to go mow the lawn. Great son, you know, can I help you get the mower out and all that? But there were some Saturdays where I didn't get out there soon enough.

And dad said. Oh, you got to mow the lawn today. And I remember thinking like, you know, forget you i'm not gonna do this Yeah, get off my back. I'm gonna drag it around. I'm gonna drag this out and be miserable the whole time, you know. But it's the difference between being in alignment with the father, yes, and the father is more than happy to accommodate you if your will is aligned with the father. I think that's right. That's a good example. 

J.R.: Do you remember me not wanting I know you're gonna remember this I didn't want to take the garbage out. And , Mom and Dad were like, look, that's your chore. David mows the lawn and Mark does this. And I'm thinking, I'd rather mow the lawn.

Take the garbage. So I think they hit us up. Mom and Dad were like, okay, you know and I think you rolled your eyes because you knew how this was going to play out. And you're like, fine, I'll take the garbage [00:28:00] out. And you took the garbage out and then 30 seconds you're done. 

David: Yeah, one minute. 

J.R.: And I'm like seven and I'm pushing the, you know, our two acre lot. And so, yeah, I'm push mowing this and just going back and forth. I think I made it about three or four swipes before mom felt sorry for me and made you mow the lawn. 

David: Anyway. Yeah. I'm not sure how that plays into this whole alignment with God's will. Cause it seemed like I got shafted, but. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, no. Yeah. I don't know how that works, but no, you definitely got the short end of that stick. 

David: Yeah, so anyway, we've kind of beat this horse pretty dead. But the whole idea is that, you know, there's an alignment with God's will and there is some idea in all these different things that Jesus talks about of a concept we talked about last episode.

I think it was kind of sharing in his authority, right? Which would be another way of saying judging the world or reigning with God is sharing in that authority and doing your part in God's kingdom, right? 

J.R.: Right, exactly.

David: Okay, so those are some words of Jesus. There's a lot more that we could talk about, but let's move on to the Apostle [00:29:00] Paul, because in 1st Corinthians chapter 6, Paul kind of takes this head on and just says pretty plainly that he believes this is not just referring to the disciples, but this is something much larger that all followers of Christ will participate in. Okay. <Okay.> So, 1st Corinthians chapter 6, he's talking about lawsuit among believers. You know, why are you going to courts with each other? Why are you taking each other to the secular courts?

J.R.: Yeah, I remember that. 

David: So, he says, "If any of you has a dispute with one another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord's people?" Okay. Then he makes this statement. "Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you were to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more than the things of this life?"

J.R.: Wow. Yeah. Paul turned it up. 

David: Yeah, it is pretty ...

J.R.: You can turned it up pretty strong on that one, right?

David: get much more plain than that. So, at least in Paul's mind, this tells you that Paul is taking all these ideas that [00:30:00] we just talked about Jesus, and Paul believes that they actually apply to all of his followers. Because in Corinth here, he's getting on them about lawsuits among each other. And he said, look, don't you know that we are going to judge the world? And then he even makes the statement, do you not know that we will judge angels? 

J.R.: My response would have been, no, I didn't realize that. 

David: I was not aware of that, no.

J.R.: I haven't read that anywhere, wow, thank you for telling me. Yeah, and what he does, it makes me, it makes me think, do I have the character to judge anyone? Much less the angels, right? And of course the answer is no, but I guess the point of that is that should trigger something in me that says, well, what can I do now that might get me closer to that type of integrity, right?

David: Yeah, yeah. And, of course, the angels he's talking about here is probably the fallen angels. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. 

David: So, there again, it's that idea of participating in basically, what, issuing that final condemnation to the rebellious angels. <Right.> And getting rid of the chaos. Setting [00:31:00] everything back to order.

Paul here, again, is telling these believers in Corinth, don't you know that you will participate in that? <Right.> And again, I think that's one of those, it's one of these passages that you hear every now and then, but if you really think about it, you think, oh wow, yeah. And I think you're right, that the response is like, am I even competent to do this, you know? 

J.R.: I'm not ready for this, right? 

David: Yeah 

J.R.: You know, well, it's helpful that when you said that we take part in God's authority, right? That's actually helpful because that's a little bit less. It's not out of my own wisdom that I'm passing judgment. It's because I am co-heirs with Christ that I have partial authority with God, you know? That's where that comes from.

That's where the wisdom and the ability to judge comes from. And so it's not to say that we shouldn't work in our own lives, in preparing ourselves for this future eternal responsibility, but it is saying that we are going to have God's authority as sort of the wisdom behind our judgments, right?

David: Sure, and the whole idea of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament [00:32:00] is, hey, you don't have to do this by yourself. 

J.R.: Yes, exactly. 

David: So, yeah, you have the wisdom of the Holy Spirit with you. Again, all that, I keep going back to this alignment with God's kingdom. You know, you have the Holy Spirit available to you. You have more insight into what God is doing. You align yourself with that and you find yourself participating in it. And I think in some sense, then it almost, there's a reality to it, but it almost appears as if, and I've seen this every now and then, like you are carrying out God's will. It's like, man, God is working through that person, right? 

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: And it's that whole dynamic that's going on, I think. 

J.R.: Yeah, you're right. But at first glance, again, to go back to the big throne. I feel like the little kid in the big throne. <Yeah.> You know, the fallen angels are before me, and I'm the one passing judgment. That's a tall order. Sorry about that.

David: Yeah, God says, J, what do you think? You're like What do you think? 

J.R.: Rogan said. 

David: Rogan? And what if Rogan's there? Hey, bro. Don't turn this on me. 

J.R.: Come on, dude. 

David: No, but you're right. I think you start to feel, even just, we just started to unpack this. I still think you start to feel the weight [00:33:00] of, okay, what might this mean, at least. <Right.> Even if we're not completely clear yet, you know, what might this mean, and what responsibility does this put on me right now?

J.R.: Right. Yeah, at the very least, you should feel the weight of your future responsibility, no doubt. 

David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, there are other places where the Apostle Paul makes similar statements. So we're kind of building on this idea, and then we're going to get to Revelation, because you can't talk about any of this stuff without looking at Revelation, right?

You had done some reading, too, beforehand in Revelation, but the first place that I wanted to point out real quick is Revelation chapter 5, right? And this is a reference to the Lamb of God, which is Jesus. But Revelation chapter 5 verse 9 and 10 says, "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals because you are slain." Talking about Christ. "And with your blood you purchase for God persons from every tribe language and peoples and nations. You have made them to be a kingdom of priests to serve our God and they will reign on the earth." Okay. Now that's starting to get closer to [00:34:00] this idea of reigning with God. 

J.R.: Right, right. Well the kingdom of priests I can take that I can accept that. 

David: Yeah. And there's a lot to unpacking that idea, priest. 

J.R.: Yes. I mean, the idea of the priesthood, the Levites, you know, this was their role in the, what? 

David: In the Old Testament in Israel? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. The Old Testament tribes of Israel, that, that was their role, the priestly role. And they carried that out, you know? <Right.> They didn't have regular jobs. They served the priestly role. So yes, if part of reigning. with Christ means that I'm to carry out a priestly role, well, okay. That feels a little bit more like telling me what to do and I'll be glad to clean that up and get this ready and yeah, the dishes and right. I can handle that. 

David: Yeah. So you mentioned the idea of the Levites in the Old Testament, they were the priestly class. And then in the New Testament, that idea of kingdom of priest actually extends to all followers of Christ. So there's not just a priestly class. It's basically, you have become a kingdom of priests. And I think you're right that that actually helps define what it means to [00:35:00] reign on earth with God, is that they are serving in this priestly function to the rest of the world. 

J.R.: Right. And in the New Jerusalem, there is no temple, because God Himself is the temple.

David: Right. 

J.R.: So it kind of goes back a little bit, circles back to, okay, what does the priestly class do then? But it does help make that connection a little bit.

David: . So skipping ahead in Revelation, because a lot of crazy things go down in Revelation, Revelation chapter 20. And this is a chapter where I think we talked about this earlier. "I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the abyss, and holding in his hand a great chain." he sees the dragon. So this is the picture, then, of the final judgment of Satan and the fallen angels, right? 

J.R.: Right. Binding the beast and casting him into the lake of fire. 

David: Yeah, yeah. So, Revelation chapter 20 verse 4, then, says, "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge."

Okay, so here's that idea, authority of judge again. "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God." So this is the idea of the martyrs.

J.R.: [00:36:00] Right. 

David: "They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead or on their hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Now, again, is he talking about a specific group of people, or is he talking about basically anyone who endures, what, endures hardships for Christ in this lifetime, and then they are the ones who will actually participate and reign, you know, passing this final judgment and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And I think when you take everything that we've been talking about, the implication is that, no, this is, in some sense, this is all people who follow Christ will participate in this. 

J.R.: Well, it says again in chapter 22, and this is after the thousand year reign. So again, I get so tangled up in Revelation that I'm trying, we're trying to ...

David: I know, we're trying to avoid all the controversy and timeline and literal understanding of all this stuff. Yes. 

J.R.: Right. But in chapter 22, it says, "There will be no more night, there will not be a need for a light or a lamp or the sun. For the Lord God will give them light and [00:37:00] they will reign forever and ever." And so what they're saying, and this is after, the destruction of <Yeah> Satan. And so it's also implying again that yes, we, meaning not just God and Jesus and the martyrs, but we will all reign forever and ever. 

David: Yeah, we will all reign. <Right.> Yeah. 

J.R.: So, again, it is this idea of reigning, and I don't know if reigning and judging necessarily mean the same thing, or if there's specifics that kind of separate there, but it definitely implies that we're all part of this reigning class in heaven or the New Jerusalem.

David: Right. Judging is definitely part of that, but I think, yes, reigning in general is just, well, it's just managing a kingdom, right? <Right, sure.> And I think it starts to get away from this idea of, well, we'll all go to heaven one day, everything will be perfect, and so there will be nothing to do. <Right.> No, the things to do will be all the things that it takes to reign in a kingdom and basically maintain the order.

J.R.: Right. Which is interesting because again, we just think of well, what is there to do in [00:38:00]heaven? Isn't everything going to be perfect in the streets of gold and you just kind of go from mansion to mansion visiting all your buddies or what? How does that work? You're right when you kind of dig in you understand what reigning is and what judging means that it does appear that there's going to be managerial works or like we said earlier a priestly class - a priestly obligation that we are going to have in heaven. So we will have some sort of jobs or some sort of responsibilities clearly.

David: Yeah, even if something look you don't have to look too hard to look at a family or an organization you go man that thing's running perfectly Well, I guarantee you someone is doing the work of maintaining the perfection so to speak, right? 

J.R.: Right, right. 

David: And we think somehow that's going to be different in heaven. But again, the picture is what? Not that things will fall apart, but that there are things to do to maintain that level of order, right? I guess you could say. 

J.R.: Right. Well, every time there's a job opening that I might be interested in, like one of the questions I always ask, I always want to know, hey, what does a typical day in this position look [00:39:00] like?

Right? And so I'll ask somebody who's in that position, hey, what's your day to day look like? <Yeah.> And that's part of what I'm kind of wrestling with is like, okay, you know, yeah, no mind can conceive, no eye can imagine what heaven's going to be like. But yeah, what's the day gonna look like? What am what? You know, what's my day in? What are my responsibilities? What am I supposed to do? What does it look like? And that's kind of what we're wrestling with today. You know, in this episode, what does it mean to reign with Christ, right? <Yeah, yeah.> What does that day to day look like? Help me out here.

David: Well, one of the things that occurred to me is one of the pictures of God's kingdom, kind of this place of perfection, is you go back to the Garden of Eden, right? So, Adam and Eve are in the garden. What does God do? Was Adam just bored with nothing to do? <Yeah.> You know, what is he doing? No, he's actually managing the garden, right?

Right, so to speak. God gives him jobs to do. He's naming animals, which basically is he's defining things. So it's that idea of again putting things in order, and I don't know that, you know, we could get into this again. I don't know that he's literally sitting there pointing at animals, giving them [00:40:00]names, as much as it is this idea that he's understanding what these animals do, how they differ from each other, so that he can actually put some kind of label on them, which defines them, right?

J.R.: Right. Right. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. We've talked about this before. It's such an interesting job responsibility to give to Adam, right? Name the animals. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And it's so much more than getting to name the new puppy. You know, it's an illustration of giving meaning to the undefined, right? To set up order in the world.

And when we talk about reigning with God, you're exactly right. It has echoes of Eden's. <Yeah.> It has echoes of Adam's responsibility in Eden to name the animals set up order of the world. And this goes back to your idea of, we get this idea that God comes back and suddenly we're all whisked into heaven and everything's perfect.

But I think you're right. I think the implication is a little bit more clear. No, there's going to be a process to setting up order to the world. Setting up order to the new heaven, or the new earth, right? And we're going to be a part of that. 

David: It'll be a process setting it up, but there's also, you could say, a process in maintaining it. <Sure.> [00:41:00] And that's, and again, I think that's part of what it means to participate with God in doing that. And of course, it's gonna be all the things that God promises, you know, it's gonna be fulfilling, and it's not gonna be like mowing the lawn on Saturday. Let's put it that way, right?

J.R.: Right. Yeah, a little bit more than that. But I do think it's interesting that that pattern recurs, that Adam's original responsibility in the garden, that sort of pops up again in the new earth. 

David: Yeah 

J.R.: Well that we'll have something similar. 

David: Yeah, I think you mentioned this a couple episodes ago that for the first time you had planted things around your house. 

J.R.: Oh, right. 

David: And I had the same experience.

J.R.: Still kicking man.

David: Yeah Well, yeah, that's hey, I planted a cucumber vine about three weeks ago. Just a couple inches tall that thing's already completely scaled my trellis. It's jumped to the next one beside it like it's going nuts. 

J.R.: Yeah, you're going to be bringing cucumbers to all the unwitting people at work.

David: Guess what your Christmas present is going to be. 

J.R.: That's right. Cucumbers. 

David: No, but there's something fulfilling about that, right? I guess that's my [00:42:00] point. Like, <Right.> when you talk about just maintaining your yard, you know, you can see it as drudgery. But, you know, yesterday I spent the day, it was 90 degrees. I'm hacking things, hacking everything back, because in Florida, you know, you have to every week or it just takes over. But there's something very fulfilling about it too. I almost look forward to it. Like, Hey, I'm gonna go work in the yard, like you said, I think a couple times. And that cucumber plant is a payoff.

Do it right, water it, fertilize it, and watch this thing flourish. Right? <Yeah.> And there's something I, I think it's more about that I, go back to that idea of the Garden of Eden. There's something very fulfilling about working to maintain the perfection of this place. Right? 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. The older I get, the more I am fascinated in maintaining the garden, so to speak. <Yeah.> You know, tending the yard, you want everything perfect, you want everything, you know. When I was younger, you're right, it was just drudgery. But there is something about maturing and saying, man, I'm taking care of this; this yard looks absolutely perfect.

These flowers look wonderful. And there is sort of a payoff of, I don't know, beauty through [00:43:00] my own, sweat and time and tending for it. And when it's tended to properly, you find out that, man, this really does work. I used to say man, I've got a brown thumb. I do not have a green thumb. Everything dies. And then I found out the simple answer is well, you got to water it, right?

You know, you're watering it, right? Well, no, no, I haven't done that for a couple weeks. So that might have something to do with it. But yeah, once you kind of get into maintaining something, yeah, you're right. There's a payoff to it. And maybe you're right. It's a little bit more setting order, and that's why tending the garden and naming the animals was such a significant responsibility in the garden. And I can kind of see where that responsibility can even translate in the new earth, the new Jerusalem, right? <Yeah.> Those responsibilities of maintaining that are going to be still necessary. 

David: Yeah. All right, there's one more concept we're going to talk about here, and maybe we should have started with this. I don't know. But when we talk about reigning with God, I think you can't talk about it without going back to this idea. We've talked about it before in the Old Testament, which is God ruled by divine [00:44:00] council, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, there we go. We've talked about the divine council before. 

David: And this isn't something that's really clearly stated in the Old Testament, but there's several references to this idea of what's going on, and then, you know, people in the Church and theologians kind of develop this idea.

But we did talk about it. I think I'll put it It's in one of the psalm series, and I think it's called the Divine Council, but I'll put a link to that in our show notes, too. Psalm 82 is the classic psalm that we talked about before, where the gods who accepted worship for themselves, right? That's that God put this council in charge of the 70 nations.

They were ruled by angels and spirits that were, quote, other gods, and they accepted worship for themselves. And so Psalm 82 is God pronouncing judgment on those gods. <Right.> And it makes the statement that "God presides in the Great Assembly, and He renders judgment among the gods," okay? So it's a picture of God ruling in this divine council and passing judgment, in this case, on these other gods [00:45:00] that had failed to point those nations to Yahweh. They began accepting worship for themselves, right?

J.R.: Yeah, and one of the things we talked about in that episode was don't think of it in terms of, God needed this council, to help him think through issues or bring to the table some insight that he didn't have, right? <Right.> He set up the divine council to include the angels. And I think what you're saying, or where you're going with the Psalm 82 reference, is that He's going to include us in the divine council, not because of what we bring to the table, but because He wants to include man, humans, in His divine rule. He wants to include us. 

David: Right, and I think you see that throughout the Bible, is God doesn't need to include us, but He wants to. God participated with angels that were, you know, loyal to Him. And we saw that in the Divine Council. God creates man. He creates man in his own image. Why? He didn't need to.

J.R.: Right. 

David: Because he wanted to share in all this with different parts of his [00:46:00] creation. And you know, it's weird, this interplay between mankind and angels, because in some cases it says, well, God made us a little lower than the angels. And then in other places it says, don't you know that the angels are actually envious of people? Because of our capacity to have this relationship with God, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And so it's this very odd thing, but yeah, the picture is that God wants beings around Him who will participate with Him as He does this, even though He doesn't need it, right? 

J.R.: Right. Right. 

David: Yeah, so this Divine Council that you see in the Old Testament is a picture, I think, of what you will see then in Revelation, and there are hints of this as well, is that the saints will participate in this council of God. Right? And it's not just that there's 70 places, but the assembly of 70 is representative of everyone participating as God kind of carries out order in his kingdom. And one of the places you do see this, I thought this was really interesting, so we're gonna go a little bit of a tangent here. It ties into [00:47:00] what we've been talking about this whole time.

Is where do you see this idea of participating in his reign in the New Testament? In John chapter 14 there is a verse that's probably familiar with. It says, "In my father's house there are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." Right? So he's talking to his disciples and he's explaining to him that He will actually leave them very soon.

So it's this verse that says, in my father's house, there are many mansions. What's interesting about that verse is, and this was brought up on someone else's podcast, Father Stephen DeYoung actually kind of played this out. I thought it was fascinating. Is that idea ...

J.R.: You and I talked - wait a second - you and I talked about this on the shoreline walk in Thessalonica? Do you remember this? 

David: We did. That's right. 

J.R.: I actually remember where I was at when you told that's funny like ah, that's fascinating. Yeah, so it just brings me right back to the okay. 

David: Yes, so we're on the, what, the shores of the city of Thessalonica. 

J.R.: Yeah, it was the city. So it wasn't like the beach the river walk basically, right? Yeah, something like that watching the sunset and you were bringing this up. So yeah, [00:48:00] sorry about that continue. 

David: Okay, so no, so this is really interesting that idea of, in my father's house there are many mansions. All right, that idea of mansions is actually not a good translation at all. 

J.R.: Right, but that's where we get our we all have our own mansion. 

David: Yeah, because once this was brought up, I Googled it, or I did a Bible search on Blue Letter Bible, whatever app you use, and there's no more references to mansions. This is the only reference to a mansion, and yet, you know, there are gospel songs that talk about, I'll have a mansion in glory, and all that. <Right.> Right? So we have this idea of you know, Hey, I hope my mansion's next to yours and how big your mansion is depends on, you know, how many souls you won for Christ and all that kind of thing. 

J.R.: Yeah, the one place it's mentioned in the Bible and we got it wrong. 

David: Yeah, we kind of maybe took that a little too far, right?

J.R.: Too literal, right. 

David: Because what is pointed out then, it doesn't even make sense. In my father's house are many mansions. 

Think about that statement for a second. Like, okay, so are we talking about houses within one big house? You know, so clearly that's not [00:49:00] a good translation. And the word in Greek for house is just oikos, which can mean a dwelling. It can mean, you know, a lot of different things. So, I guess in the King James, they just settled on mansion because that sounded like a nice vision of heaven. Right? Everyone gets their own castle. 

J.R.: Who did they know all the gospel songs that would be created after that? 

David: Yeah. So, yeah, who knew we were going to spark this? Dude, I was just joking around, we'd all get our own castle one day, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, it's not such a 20th century literal translation. 

David: So the NIV actually translates this verse as, "My father's house has many rooms." Now that's getting closer. Right? That makes more sense. "If it were not so, I would have told you, and I'm going to prepare a place for you." Right? So, what the idea is this is really getting at, when you look at the whole picture, is that the best translation, at least the argument that this guy was making, that I thought was pretty convincing, is, in my father's tent, there are many rooms.

And what that is a picture of is, when you are having an assembly. Right? What would you do? You'd pack up things, and you'd go to a place, it was usually a [00:50:00] holy place, a sacred place, and you would put up your tents. And these tents would be huge, right? <Yeah.> And so, what this is a reference to is, you would have your advisors in the tent rooms next to you.

You can't think of a little camping tent. <Right.> You gotta think of, like, huge Bedouin tents that literally have many, many rooms, right? 

J.R.: Right. Right. Exactly. 

David: And so, the king would have his advisors in the rooms next to him, right? The queen might be next to him. 

J.R.: Yeah, kind of connected tents. 

David: Yeah. Right. And, you know, there might not be the same tent, but close by would be another set of people that, maybe his military people, right? And so, all these advisors would arrange their tents for this assembly with meeting with someone else, okay? <Yeah.> And where your room was, or where your tent was basically told you where you were in the pecking order.

J.R.: Right. 

David: Right? 

J.R.: Right. The closeness of your tent to the emperor, described your relationship with the emperor. 

David: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And if you were way off, you know, down around the [00:51:00]mountainside, it probably told you that you didn't really have a lot of participating in the council that was about to take place, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, exactly. 

David: Some messenger says, Hey, we'll summon you if you're needed. Yeah. Okay. Well, that tells me my place, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. The horses are closer to the king than I am. 

David: Yeah. There's actually a picture of this. I've said this before, I love the show The Last Kingdom. But there's actually a picture of this going on in, you know, 9th century, 10th century England, where a council is called.

It's exactly this thing. This isn't just something that someone made up, right? A council is called, and so everyone is coming with their whole retinue, and their advisors, and they're setting up in this big field. And the main character of the series, Uhtred, he shows up and he's told that he's, like, down the river by this wooded area.

And he immediately figures out that, number one, that's far away from the action, and number two, that's a very vulnerable position. And so in the movie, or in the show, it actually told him [00:52:00]that he was in danger, right? His place where he set his tent up in the council. But aside from the storyline, it is a picture of this very thing.

People gathering, a council is happening, an assembly is taking place, and everyone is kind of jockeying for their position, right? So go back to this verse then. My father's, let's say, tent has many rooms. So what is he conveying to his disciples? 

J.R.: Yeah, there's plenty of opportunity to be in close proximity and relationship with the king. <Right, right.> And to be a part of the yeah, the reigning council.

David: Yeah, you don't need to jockey for position, right?

J.R.: Right, right So yeah worried about who's at his right hand. 

David: Yeah, who who were the two that were fighting about that, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, the things that disciples fought about and it's like no, no, no. We've got many rooms. There's plenty of opportunity. And, yeah, that we're all going to be part of this divine council.

David: Right. So he's not saying, hey, don't worry about it. You know, when you get to heaven, you're gonna have this [00:53:00] sweet mansion. It's gonna be loaded down, so don't worry. No, what he's saying is, you know, look, you guys are participating now, you're learning. But, you know, in the final assembly, when it comes time to reign with God, look, you guys will participate.

You don't need to jockey for position. My father's tent has many rooms, there's room for everyone here, and you're all going to participate in reigning. I just thought that was a really cool picture, and completely different. 

J.R.: It's a much better, yeah, it's a much deeper understanding of that verse, then, like you said, just worrying about, yeah, you're tricked out mansion. And is it going to have a weight room and, you know, all this kind of stuff. 

David: Starbucks and, is there going to be a Starbucks? What is the Simpsons where they walk into that mall and like every other store is a Starbucks, you know? That might be someone's picture in heaven. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, one for every floor.

David: Yeah, my mansion has a Starbucks on every floor. 

J.R.: Oh yeah. Ready for it, man.

David: No, but it's a very different picture, right? It it, and I think it's actually a really cool picture of this is what it looks like to participate in reigning with God, so. 

J.R.: Right, [00:54:00] right. Okay again, but kind of goes back to that idea of am I prepared to judge, right? And the weight that is part of that. And when you're saying that I'm going to be a advisor to God right that I'm gonna be reigning with God and I'm gonna be part of this divine council, it's like there's a lot of weight on that. 

If I told you that you would be installed as president of the United States a year from now, you know, how would you respond to that? Like a small, shallow part of you might think, man, finally, I'm going to be in charge, right? That's the response that, Hey, that's my sweet mansion. That's the shallow area, right? But the thinking part of you would realize how incredibly unprepared you are. And so you're going to spend the next year obsessing and studying government and geo- politics and political law, right? 

David: Yeah, you might start reading a book or two. Right. You might turn Joe Rogan off. 

J.R.: Right. All your political water cooler talk, that's nonsense because you realize there's nothing really behind it. No understanding behind it. Whatever you do, you're not going to take the year off and [00:55:00] say, Hey man, next year I'm going to be Prez. Watch this happen. You know, and so , that kind of brings us back to this idea of what we do now in the physical world and the material world is actually preparation for our future responsibilities.

And so, it goes to what we're trying to address in this episode. How do we prepare reigning with Christ? <Yeah.> Right? How do we prepare for that? And it's something that, may be in the future, but it's something that we can be preparing ourselves now. Right? Kind of like the president analogy. 

David: Yeah, I think that's right 

J.R.: It's coming, right? And I want to be ready for it, and I don't want to be a huge disappointment and a massive embarrassment to myself, right? 

David: Right. Yeah.

J.R.: When my name gets called and so, you know, how do we prepare now? And that's kind of maybe that's a good place to kind of wrap it up. How do we prepare for that now? 

David: Yeah, we've talked about a lot of different things, but I think one thing you're getting at is, how do we prepare now? Well, we don't wait for heaven to put our own affairs in order, right? We, we can put ourselves in order right now. And [00:56:00] again, we can debate this, but I've got to think that somehow that carries over into God's kingdom, because everything we've talked about during this series, to me, seems to indicate that, right? <Right.> That what I do now matters. So, I think to your point, that's the first thing we can do. We can set ourselves in order, right? <Right.> We can set ...

J.R.: Yeah, to not have the simplistic response of when God comes, all my sins will be forgiven. I'll be given a new body and a new mind and a new heart and we'll reign with Christ. Well, that sounds good. That's an interesting way to put it. But I don't think that's accurate. It's not helpful in the here and now, right? It doesn't inspire me to try to do better right now. <Yeah.> Does that make any sense? <No, I think ...> It almost tells me no need to prepare because it's all going to be new.

David: it's one of those things that falls under the category of, okay, even if that's true, is that a practical way to live? And to me, it's not. To me, it's very uninspiring way to live.

Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. 

J.R.: Well, I think one of the things you've said or have said before, you don't wait to be perfect when you get [00:57:00] to heaven. And no, that doesn't mean, I'm not implying that we can be perfect here on earth. The idea that we will only be perfect in heaven sometimes also implies that there's no need to try here on earth.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And that's exactly the wrong way to think about it. 

David: Yeah. And it gets back to this idea of if one of the things involved in reigning with God is well judging, evil, judging, chaos, right, then, I mean, it's a better place to start than myself, right? Put my own heart and mind in order, right?

Fight the evil that lurks around in my heart and soul and mind on an ongoing basis, right? To make sure that I'm not contributing to that, so to speak. 

J.R.: Right. We all know our soul is eternal, so why in the world are we going to allow those gross things to creep in? You know, even though it's here on earth, it's going to be eternal and don't give into those parts of you, you know? and prepare yourself for your future responsibility, your future role.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And I think a lot of times we, I don't know, we just worry about the image, the look of something, you know? The way we come across to other people. [00:58:00] And we're not really concerned with what's in our heart because we tell ourselves well, we're fallen people and nobody's perfect. And again, it's like you said I don't really think that's a helpful way to look at it. 

Okay, so you and I both love Gladiator, right? 

David: Oh, yeah.

J.R.: And my favorite character in the movie is not Russell Crowe. It is Joaquin Phoenix, right? Marcus Aurelius' son, Commodus. He is a great character. He does it, he nails it, you know. But one thing about his character, Commodus, is that he was consumed by his image as the Emperor's son, right? You remember him at the beginning of the movie. He shows up to that final skirmish that sort of secured the Romans. It basically ensured that the Romans had conquered the known world, right? And he walks in and he says the great line, you know, did I miss the battle? <Oh, yeah.> And his dad, you know, the Emperor Marcus Aurelius looks at him and says, my son, you missed the war.

David: And the general around him is kind of rolling their eyes like, yeah, of course you missed the battle. 

J.R.: Right, but he's a great character because he was so obsessed about portraying the image of a future [00:59:00] Emperor that he never worked on his character that would have made him perhaps a great emperor, right?

David: That's actually a really interesting picture of instead of actually preparing himself to reign he was more concerned with having the image of someone reigning. 

J.R.: Right. He was constantly aware that people were looking to him as the future emperor. And he never actually worked on the character of being a future emperor. All he was worried about was the image. 

David: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. And so we kind of see this, you know, we talked about this before, you know, when some great company leader kind of rises up to build some kind of amazing empire, only to hand it off to his kid, who didn't work for it. And it collapses shortly thereafter, right?

David: Right, yeah. 

J.R.: And it's because one person through struggle, built their character up to build something, and then they hand it off to somebody who didn't have the character to maintain it. And so, kind of as my summary is that image of Commodus. Don't focus on the fact that, hey, I've gotta look like my life is in [01:00:00] order, I gotta look like a good strong Christian man or woman.

But start digging in to say, Hey, I'm gonna be the emperor one day. Right? I'm gonna be in the godly council. What can I do right now to prepare my character for that responsibility? Right? If we're destined to reign, then we need to prepare our character for that responsibility. 

David: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great image.

And instead of being consumed with, How do I look the part? Actually do the work. <Right.> Do the work and prepare yourself. Yeah. 

J.R.: Right. As opposed to just saying, it's going to be handed to me anyway, so might as well live it up and enjoy the wine and food. 

David: Because we know how that ends. 

J.R.: Not live like a peasant. Right. 

David: In any movie. In every movie, we know how that ends. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's a perfect setup. 

David: Yeah. I think that's a great example of putting yourself in order. Once you put yourself in order, we talked about this on other episodes, putting your house in order, right? Your family. Your little circle of influence can be a place that is orderly instead of chaotic.

J.R.: Right, right. It can reflect either heaven or hell. 

David: And the more we do that, I think that is all involved in aligning [01:01:00] ourself with God's kingdom. And yeah, I think you're right. When we are doing those things on an ongoing basis, we are actually preparing ourselves to reign. Instead of just kind of biding our time and going, Oh, cool, I get to sit on that big throne one day, right?

J.R.: Right, right. Yeah. Well, the Stoics kind of had that figured out, that idea of preparing yourself. 

David: Yeah, that's true. What particular are you talking about? 

J.R.: Well, we just got done talking about Gladiator and Marcus Aurelius and what is his book?

David: Meditations.

J.R.: Meditations, right. My understanding of it is that when you try to chase after riches or success, you're usually unsuccessful, and what you should be doing is working on your character, working on your integrity, and many times when you work on that and perfect that, the riches or I shouldn't say riches, the success follows.

David: Yeah, let's say the results, yeah, the results you're looking for tend to follow. Yeah, that's right.

J.R.: Right, that's a better way to say it: so many people chase after the results of something instead of looking at how do I become the [01:02:00] type of person that gets those results? 

David: Yeah, 

J.R.: I'm reading a, autobiography of Dave Grohl, Foo Fighters, right? And one of the things he says is that everybody likes themselves in the image, standing on the stage, rocking out to a stadium full of people.

But nobody likes the idea of working your fingers to the bone, bleeding. Working on chords over and over in your mom's basement, right? 

David: Right, yeah. 

J.R.: And so, yeah, we all want the results of something, but we don't necessarily want the character and the work that it takes to get those results.

David: That's right. Okay, Foo Fighters or Nirvana? Come on. 

J.R.: What are you saying? You mean Dave Grohl? Yeah. Which do you associate him with? 

David: Yeah, that's what I mean. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: You're like Foo Fighters, and I'm like Nirvana . 

J.R.: Yeah, you're right. I should've, I should've led with Nirvana. Well, I think most people know him from Foo Fighters. At least, I never knew he was the drummer. In fact, when he became the frontman of Foo Fighters, that's when, whatever, MTV told me, the former drummer for Nirvana. I'm like, oh wow, yeah, there he is. He wasn't really a household name before that. Yeah, sure. That's right. No, hey, that's a great [01:03:00] autobiography, by the way. 

David: Huh. That would be interesting. I always kind of thought he was a fascinating guy. 

J.R.: Yes. You'll find out that he actually is. That's not fluff, man. Yeah. 

David: Yeah, Stoicism very much, it's that stoic image of the archer, right? That if you're focused on the target instead of focusing on everything you have to do to hit the target, you may be continually frustrated. Because Stoicism very much believes, you know, it's that image that as soon as you release the arrow, a lot of things can happen that you may not hit the target. <Right.> All you can do is prepare yourself before the arrow is released to make sure that you've done everything in your own power, right? <Right.> To hit the target or get the results you want. But once the arrow is released, it's outta your hands. Right? And it saves you from all the frustration of, I didn't hit this result, I didn't hit that target, I didn't do that. And it continually goes back and says, yeah, but did you prepare?

<Right.> Because if, if you did prepare, then you've done all you can do. Right? The rest is outta your hands. 

J.R.: You can't control the world, but you can control yourself. <Yeah, yeah.> And prepare yourself. Exactly. 

David: [01:04:00] Yeah. So, alright, big question then. What do you think of Gladiator 2? Is it going to be a massive letdown? Or it kind of looks cool? 

J.R.: It does. No, it definitely looks cool. We were talking earlier about the Ring of Power. And that was a pretty big disappointment, right? I think we both agreed on that. 

David: Yes, yeah, we are, we are in alignment there. 

J.R.: I was pumped about it. I was so excited. I mean, when it came out, I'm like, I can't wait to watch this. It looked like there was a bunch of money poured into it. And so, yeah, I was excited about it and it was a big letdown. So is Gladiator going to be, Gladiator 2, is it going to be up to the original or is it going to be a Ring of Power letdown?

David: That's a big question, because Gladiator is one of my favorite movies ever. 

J.R.: No, it's absolutely great. Well, I tell you, if they keep with the ideas, the original intent of it, I think, there's places you can go with it. You know, some movies, you kind of wrap it up, and you find out that there's going to be a part two, and you're like, well, I mean, all the questions were answered. Where do I go with Bill and Ted's excellent adventure part two, right? I don't, there wasn't anything much to the first one. It was a good laugh, but let's not drag this out, right? 

David: One [01:05:00] notch below Gladiator is Bill and Ted. Yeah. 

J.R.: Exactly. But Gladiator has, there's some open ended ideas and concepts through it that I think they could play off. So yeah, I think they've got a framework for a good comeback and I mean, how long has it been it's been 20 years?

David: I think it's 20 years. I think that's the whole idea is that it's kind of 20 year anniversary or something <Yeah.> I could be wrong about that, but. 

J.R.: Oh dude. All right. Well, I can't wait. I'm definitely signed up. I'll watch it opening night. But yeah, then I'll get back to you. <All right.> Let you know how big of a disappointment it might be. 

David: Speaking of 20 years later. I just watched a movie last night with Russell Crowe. And he does not look like Maximus anymore. Let's just, 

J.R.: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. What'd you watch? 

David: It was a good movie. What was it called? It was called, 

J.R.: I think I saw it. 

David: It was called The Place of Bad. Does that sound familiar? 

J.R.: Yes. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. So The Place of Bad. <Yeah.> Which I actually very much enjoy. I didn't have, I'm like, ah, I'll try this one out. And I thought, wow, that was a really cool movie. 

J.R.: No, very good movie, but you're right, Russell Crowe is clearly not in gladiator shape. 

David: [01:06:00] No, he's not. 

J.R.: I think dude I might because it's been a few years and it's so good and there's a director's cut. Have you seen that? 

David: I wonder if that's on Netflix. I've seen it so many times, but yeah. 

J.R.: I know. But, but it was five, four or five years ago. I could be, it may be 10 years ago. It came out with an extended director's cut and I'm not positive that I've seen it. Oh, if I haven't, that's huge oversight on my part.

David: Oh yeah, exactly. 

J.R.: Yeah. I'll Google that and see what I may be watching. 

David: Russell Crowe's Maximus was just so classic. I mean, yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, so the body's gone, but the voice still rocks. Golly. Okay, so that's that, man. We're done with this series. What are we going to next? 

David: We are, it always seems like we start talking about a series, and, you know, plan it out, and then it's, we're already finishing it up. But, alright, so next is going to be, we're going to do Stranger Things 2. 

J.R.: Oh, good. 

David: Couple episodes. 

J.R.: Yes, we talked about that.

David: Yep, we are going to talk about virtual reality. 

J.R.: VR, that'll be fun. 

David: That'll be fun. And the other one, we're going to talk about the difference between paradise and utopia. <Okay.> So that should be an interesting one too. 

J.R.: Yeah, that does sound [01:07:00] good. 

David: Yeah. Okay. 

J.R.: Alright, good deal, man. Yeah. I can't wait.

David: No, this was good. But I had a lot of interesting conversations kind of outside the. I guess I should say in response to the episodes that have been released so far in this series, so, no, it was good. 

J.R.: Yeah, this series in particular has opened up opportunities to kind of seep into your everyday conversation a little bit. <Yeah> And I think it goes back to the, you know, what we talked about the beginning. There's so many words we take for granted and we don't really dig into. And once you dig into it and think about it just a little bit, you find that those words are used all the time and it gives you a chance to say, well what do you mean by the gospel and what do you mean by <Right.> heaven or reigning with God. <Yeah.> You know, so it does kind of open up avenues of conversation. So hopefully uh, you got something out of this and you're able to have your own conversations. 

David: And if you have questions or want to leave a comment, we'd love to hear from you as well. If you, whatever app you're on, if you click on the expanded show description, you'll see the description, but you'll see also all the links.

I'm learning this, depending on what app you're listening [01:08:00] on, you have the ability to leave a comment and all those would always be helpful too. So, keep all that in mind. We'd love to hear from you, however you want to participate. Facebook, leave a comment on the show, leave us a rating, anything like that.

We'd love to hear from you. And, we will talk to you during our Stranger Things Part 2. 

J.R.: Here we go. Alright, we'll see you next time.