Stranger Things 2: Virtual Reality

In this episode, we venture into the ever-expanding world of virtual reality. 🌐🎮 We explore its rapidly evolving landscape, the potential societal impacts, and how it contrasts with our lived, physical reality. 📱💭 As we look deeper, we discuss the balance between engaging in virtual worlds and maintaining meaningful real-world connections, weighing the pros and cons of these digital environments. Join us for Season 2 of Stranger Things, where we explore modern ideas through a Christian lens. 🙏✨

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Series Overview
• 4:06 The Impact of Virtual Reality on Daily Life
• 14:52 Technology and Its Societal Implications
• 29:13 Societal Norms vs. Individual Authenticity
• 35:03 The Balance Between Virtual and Real Worlds
• 43:43 The Importance of Real-World Social Cues
• 52:17 Virtual Reality vs. Life in God's Kingdom

Transcript

Virtual Reality

David: [00:00:00] Yeah, so this episode might be turning into two old men yelling at clouds, but we'll bring this back then too.

J.R.: Yeah land the plane here, Yeah. 

David: We are going to start a new series today, a little two parter, but we've actually done this before. It's our Stranger Things series. 

J.R.: Yes, I enjoyed the first series. 

David: Yeah, I think we did three episodes last year. Stranger Things just talking about the weird things going on in our world, and how do we relate to them, things like that. How are we supposed to deal with them, and respond to them, right, as people of faith. 

J.R.: What were the three episodes? 

David: So, one was, well, one was AI. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And we could probably redo that right now. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, sure. Man, that changed so fast. Yeah. If I went back and listened to that episode, I'd be like, wow, we were way off base. 

David: Yeah, like we're talking about the Tandy computer or something like that. Right. That's how fast things are changing. So that was one of them. I know we talked about Apocalypse Now, the end of the world. And what was the third one? 

J.R.: It was UFOs, wasn't it? Or [00:01:00] aliens? 

David: Yeah, UFOs, because you really wanted to talk about UFOs.

J.R.: I always want to talk about UFOs. 

David: Yeah, you try and work that in every episode somehow. 

J.R.: Right, right. There's some place I can tie this in. But no, the UFO episode was more like, why is there such an uptick in the phenomenon? I mean, it's kind of been around, obviously, our whole lifetime, but it does seem like in the past 6, 10 years, there's been sort of an uptick and, you know, Yeah, and at the same time, and kind of what's going on behind the scenes and all this stuff.

David: Yeah. At the same time, that's another one, though, where I would say I feel like that's almost died down since we recorded that last year. 

J.R.: Yeah, I think so. 

David: You know, there was a whole flurry of activity there. 

J.R.: Yeah, 2018, something like that. <Yeah.> Everybody thought, okay, the government's about to release the information. <Yeah.> And then that never happened, so. 

David: And then, yeah, things like that, jump the gun. Never happened. But we're going to start part two today, and we're going to talk about virtual reality. And the next episode, we're going to talk about the difference between Paradise and Utopia. And I think that's going to be a fun episode too. 

J.R.: Yeah. I kind of saw the early notes on that. That looks interesting.

David: [00:02:00] Yeah. So this is Stranger Things II . And I was thinking about this because you and I always seem to talk about movies. I just watched the new Beverly Hills Cop. Have you seen that one? It's called Axel F. 

J.R.: Yes, I did. Yep, Axel F. 

David: It was an entertaining movie, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty good. It fell short a little bit like nostalgic movies do. Especially if there's a long time in between them. You know, where you're like, oh, you're all excited about, there's a reboot of Saved by the Bell or something like that. And then it's something, it always falls a little flat. But it does capture some of that nostalgia that was on the original. 

David: Yeah, it didn't feel like it forced it, you know, it's never going to be the original That was such a classic movie Beverly Hills Cop. But I was thinking about this because I was, I don't know, I saw something about the new Beverly Hills Cop movie. And then it was talking about Beverly Hills Cop part two and part three and i'm thinking, Wait they made a part two and three and I knew about two Apparently there was a three and I was starting to think about it and i'm thinking yeah The original is always the best right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: And then they come out with part two or three. I'm always surprised [00:03:00] when I hear something like, oh, they're going to do you know, Breakin Two Electric Boogaloo or something like. You're like, well, did we need part one? But part two never really lives up to the first one. The original, we kind of talked about this with Gladiator last episode, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: So anyway, I was just thinking about all that. I'm like, well, we're going to do Stranger Things 2. And hopefully we'll don't try to recreate what we did last time. It's probably not a lot of ...

J.R.: Set the audience up for let down. Is that what you're saying? 

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, Oh, part two, this is, this isn't going to be it. They're going to try all the same sticks and things like that. 

J.R.: Well, maybe, but like during the first series, I think at the end of it, we sort of said, man, we should have done virtual reality. Cause that was a, that's obviously was a thing. And. I guess we had kind of moved on to the next series when we brought it up. But at least this episode, can't vouch for next episode, but this episode, I'm all in, man.

I love virtual reality. I got the headset and obviously we're going to be talking about more, something more specific than The Meta three headset. Yeah, if you're tuning in for the new tech details [00:04:00] of the latest headset, that's not where we're going. 

David: This isn't going to be a video game review, we're talking about more than that. But the other thing I was thinking about preparing for this episode is just, there's so much overlap now between AI and virtual reality. It's hard to talk about one and not the other, as well. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. how would you clarify virtual reality, what we're talking about when you and I are talking about it? We're not talking about the Apple Vision Pro or, what headset to buy or anything. But just sort of the broader idea of jumping into a virtual world, right? And that can be certainly your phone, right? That can be social media. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: So you can, we can get pulled into virtual worlds a bunch of different ways. So yeah, that kind of that broader, I guess, definition of virtual reality.

David: And I guess it differs a little bit from AI in that with AI, you're not immersing yourself in a virtual world, right? Now there's a lot of overlap, but when you talk about AI, you're talking about how chat GPT can help me and how these other things can create pictures, but you're not really talking about this virtual [00:05:00] world that I'm going to immerse myself in. That's probably the biggest difference. 

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: Yeah, there's a couple different ways you can think about virtual reality. One is just the video games, right? The video games. Some of the medical training apps.

Look, my wife is a nurse and she's done some work with virtual reality in medical training. <Mm hmm.> And so stuff like that's pretty interesting, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, sure. I mean, you've heard about how it kind of does the protein folds and physicists are messing with it. Seems like every industry is saying that AI is going to give this breakthrough, but it's the same thing with virtual reality. You know it kind of it gives you a new way of looking at an old problem maybe because you can kind of immerse yourself into a, like I said, a protein fold or you know? At least that's what I always see on tv. You see the scientist with the AI headset on and the screen behind him and he's kind of turning the molecular model right?

<Oh, yeah.> And sort of getting it from a new angle a new perspective so that yeah. No, there's definitely some really cool things about getting a different perspective via a VR headset or virtual [00:06:00] reality because it can kind of simulate whatever you're trying to break down. 

David: Right. And if you're talking about medical training simulations, of course, virtual reality lets you practice on something that looks lifelike. And has all the different things built into it, right, without actually taking a scalpel and cutting on someone. I just imagine, you know, going in for some procedure, and they're like, Alright, I've never done this in real life, but I've practiced it a lot. You'd be a little nervous, right? <Sure.> But, you know, something like VR lets you train for that. And I was asking, again, my wife about this a little while ago, and she said, Yeah, VR can add in all of the distractions that you might see in an operating room, you know, call lights buzzing, and different conversations going on in the background that you can't even get with just a basic simulation that we would think of about five years ago.

J.R.: Well, when you think about the word simulation, we grew up in the 80s. I just think what pops in my head is flight simulators, right? 

David: Right. 

J.R.: And that was like, that's like came out on the early computers, but [00:07:00] same thing. It gave you a chance to kind of fly a plane with all of the same instrumentation and controls that a real plane has. But obviously you're not in the danger of flying a 747 full of people, right? And so, yeah, it does, it gives you a chance to practice in a simulated world to prepare you for the real world. 

David: Yeah. And then 9-11 came along and that whole flight simulator thing kind of pulling those buried far, far away. Right? Like, let's not talk about that anymore. In fact, I don't think I've heard about that in the last 20 years, but yeah, it was popular, you know. <Yeah, sure.> You get a little PC version. I remember playing around, trying to fly a plane around a city, things like that. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Alright, so, that's one virtual reality world. In fact, brought this up, we were at our parents house, what, a couple years ago, and you had this VR headset, and you're like, dude, you gotta try this.

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And I remember it was a simulation about places you would travel to, right? And we were probably planning on traveling some of these places and you could just get lost in looking around. You know [00:08:00] as you turn your head, the scene changes with you. There's depth to it. But one thing I remember about that is after you did that for about 10 minutes and then took it off it's almost like you were disoriented. 

J.R.: Oh, totally.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, it's one of the concerns about when you get a VR headset and you actually kind of jump in there for a little while. now you do get used to it, but initially it's like you don't feel comfortable driving a car know, you're a little bit unsteady on your feet.

And it's a strange feeling because you are kind of jumping in this virtual world, and here's basically this video game or this movie that you're watching that once you stop it and take it off, it actually affects your motor skills moving forward. And like I said, you do get used to it. I jump on mine from time to time kind of all the time, but. 

David: Okay. So you do get used to it. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. But it is, it's definitely the first day or two that I had it, it was, yeah, I was unsteady on my feet. Like I said, I talked to a buddy of mine who also got one kind of at the same time. He's like, man, I about ran a stop sign just out of nowhere.

And I'm like, yes, I know what you mean. You know, it's, and it's hard to explain to somebody who [00:09:00] hasn't been on one, but yeah, if you're in it a little bit too long, it's almost like it kind of overlays the real world a little bit. You know, I, it's hard to explain. You just have to experience, but I knew exactly what he's talking about when he said that he almost ran the stop sign. It's like, yes, I know exactly what you mean. You feel like you're still in that world. 

David: Yeah, and even that small example of just a video game, it actually does communicate something to you that your brain is actually adjusting to this new, I guess why I call it virtual reality, right? Your brain is actually adjusting to this new virtual world that it's in.

J.R.: Yes, absolutely. 

David: And then there's that moment of transition where your brain has to switch back and say, Okay, we're not in that world anymore, right? 

J.R.: Right, It's definitely unique. When you compare it to regular video games when you sit down and play a regular video game I don't think anybody has that feeling of right can't stand up after, you know? But what on VR, I mean, you know people there's all kinds of videos online of people obviously falling and hurting themselves, falling into the TV, right?

Because they've lost their balance. <Right. Yeah.> You know, so it, so it definitely, it definitely is more [00:10:00] than simply looking at something. You're, you're fully immersed in it. 

David: Yeah. So there's all that aspect of virtual reality. And I think you and I probably agreed we're not really going to talk about that today. We might make some reference to it. But the other way to look at virtual reality is more of just a, maybe a 30,000-foot view. More broadly speaking of we are getting better and better at creating these immersive worlds that people are spending more and more time in. So it's beyond just a video game, it may be you know, the entire online experience.

J.R.: Yes. 

David: Enhanced by AI, enhanced by VR, but more and more, the draw is that people are living their lives in what we would say is this virtual world, right? This virtual reality. 

J.R.: And it's interesting you make that distinction because I read somewhere that virtual reality, the headset games, actually have a problem where people can't keep that headset on for multiple hours at a time because it's too disorienting.

And they're saying that's actually, as far as [00:11:00] the gaming industry, it's like, that changes the way we do games. You know, if you have video game that's on the Xbox or on your television you want to get that person pulled into your world. And we've all heard of people going on binges, eight, ten hour video game binges, right, where they play Call of Duty or whatever.

But, they don't really have that problem in the virtual and the headset world, because it's too disorienting. And so, so in some ways, the virtual world that we're talking about of social media, of online gaming, of whatever, not the headset, is actually a better representation of a virtual reality that you can get pulled into. <Yeah, yeah.> If that makes any sense, right? Yeah. Yeah.

David: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what we mean by this virtual world that we get pulled into. And I was thinking of an example. I heard every time I hear these stats, it blows me away. I heard some stat that someone said their students spend an average of eight hours a day online.

And you hear these accounts then of someone who gets up in the morning, if they have a [00:12:00]job, right, if they get up in the morning and they play some games and then they go to work and then they come home and the first thing they do is they get in these chat rooms, right, where they get on their social media accounts and they're basically there all evening long.

And kind of like what we were saying where a game almost disorients your mind, when you immerse yourself in some kind of chat room, depends on what you're doing, but you know, some kind of chat room, some kind of virtual world for hours and hours on end, I don't think there's any question that it's doing something to your mind.

Your mind starts saying, and I think maybe that's why they call it virtual reality, your mind starts thinking, no, this is reality, right? And then you go to bed at two in the morning and, where have you spent most of your time? Well, it's been online. It's been on these worlds that you can choose to be in, participate in, social media, that, I think we all know by now, that's not really reflective of the real world out there.

J.R.: Right. And this is the conversation that we have around video games, but kind of social media, maybe broadly in general. It's like, when [00:13:00] does something like gaming go too far, right? Because ...

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Everybody's fine with, you know, sitting down playing a video game, mine was Super Mario Brothers. Yours was probably goes back to Atari - Pitfall or something like that, right? 

David: Oh, yeah. Jungle King. I think that's the Frogger. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. Right. So that's our generation. But yeah, when does gaming go too far? Because it's one thing to sit down and play a game of Frogger, right? But when you're obviously when something's you're on it for eight, 10 hours, right? like it doesn't seem difficult to say that's going too far, right? And so I think when we kind of say when it's going too far, it's kind of when you give up real world interaction to engage in the virtual world.

I think that's when it goes too far. If your friends call and say, Hey man, let's go play basketball tonight. And you're like, Nope, sorry. I'm having a marathon on Warcraft, then that's probably red flag that you might be going too far, right? This is a problem with our phones, by the way, you know, why do we all get frustrated when we're trying to have a conversation with someone and the person that we're talking to keeps getting pulled into their phone, right? You know [00:14:00] what I mean? It's like, come on, man. I'm right in front of you. Let's put that down. Or when you pick up your phone in the middle of conversation, what's the first thing you say? You say something like I'm really sorry. You know my kids texting me. I've got to answer this text. We never say hey, I'm sorry I'm just looking at some Instagram reels real quick, right?

You know, you always kind of, yeah, you always say, no, this is a real world problem. My wife's texting me, so let me answer this real quick and then I'll come back to the conversation. But yeah, it's when you give up real world interaction to kind of engage in this virtual world. And that's sort of a broad definition of maybe when gaming goes too far or the virtual world goes too far.

David: Yeah. Yeah. So that becomes the real danger then that we're talking about today. <Right.> Is when this virtual world, whatever it is for you, starts to replace the real world. Real world interactions, right? Starts to affect the way you live your life, your perceptions of yourself. Right. All those things. 

J.R.: Right.

David: Because as we talk about each of these topics, I think we said this last year, there's two extremes you can go to, right?

One is, [00:15:00] you almost become this Luddite, right? Everything new is bad. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: And you just kind of avoid it all together. So the internet comes out and you're like, no, no, no, not for me. Any new technology comes out. No, no, no, not for me, right? 

J.R.: Right. this is the Amish problem. Like in one side, you have to respect the Amish his commitment to maintaining their way of life. But at the same time, you also have to agree that they're what their persistence to that way of life has kind of left them in the past and isolated from broader society. Right. You know, Right. Yeah. It kind of separates you from broader society. Yeah. If, if taken to the extreme. 

David: Yeah, so we're not advocating that, but then we're talking about the other wrong reaction is, last year I think we talked about we run headlong into it without really considering, especially when we're talking about new technology, without ever considering what are the dangers here?

What are the things I need to watch out for? Especially as a person of faith, does the Bible have anything to say about this? And I think some of the mistakes we make sometimes is the Bible doesn't talk about, of course, all our new technology. So we go, well, the Bible doesn't say anything about it.

But [00:16:00] it actually does give us wisdom on how to deal with these things. And in fact, one interesting thread throughout the Old Testament is how the Bible in general considers technology. It's not technology that we would think, like Apple's coming up with, but things like how to build a building was new technology, right? Weapons, that was technology. 

And so all throughout the Old Testament, you have this warning that, on one hand, technotechnology is inevitable, right? It's not a bad thing. But it always comes with this warning of how to use it. And are you embracing it before you really understand what it is. One of the phrases we might've talked about previously is this idea of technological knowledge before it's time, which is just a way of saying someone figured out how to do something and they didn't consider what the dangers are, and they just ran with it.

And you see stories like that all throughout the Old Testament, actually, when you know what you're looking for. 

J.R.: Yeah. Well, technology, it just seems to be a new arena for all of our [00:17:00] old problems. You know what I'm saying? <Yeah, that's true.> Yeah, like if your marriage is complete and utter chaos, then moving into an awesome new house, it might be cool for a week or two, but trust me, the chaos is moving in with you. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: You know, so one way to look at technology is it's cool, but realize you're moving your whole crazy family into this new arena, right? And they'll probably find ways to trash the new place just like they did the old place, right? 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: You know, so all of our problems are coming with us. It's just, there's this new arena to engage in that. And so you see that with, you know, just the internet in general, that it's great that we can Google facts and information so quickly. But along with that comes easy access to porn and kids who are way too young have to figure out a way to navigate that because it's just right in their face all the time, when that wasn't a problem before the internet. 

David: Right. Or, as you would say, maybe just different manifestations of what that problem was. And with technology, it's become easier, right? It's become easier to access some of those things. 

J.R.: Yes. Right. So our old problems are just coming into [00:18:00] this new arena. And sometimes arena itself can amplify our old problems. <Yeah. Yeah.> A lot of times as well. 

David: As I was thinking about this topic, it occurred to me that I almost wondered if virtual reality is almost like a new - this is gonna sound weird - almost like a secular Gnosticism. And so hear me out on this because ...

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: You know back in the first century, second century, Gnosticism was a big issue for the early church. What is Gnosticism? Well, Gnosticism is a belief, and it wasn't like a really outlined belief. A lot of different things fell under this idea, but in general, to hold Gnostic views was to believe that the material world was evil, and that the spiritual world was what counted. Right? So, if you're truly Gnostic, you didn't really regard with any care about what you did with your body, what happened to your body, what was going on around you, because what was more important was a more enlightened view of the spiritual world.

J.R.: Right. 

David: And you even see this in Plato, right? Plato [00:19:00] talks about how the spirit is what matters. We have to rise beyond the material world to understand the spiritual world. The reason why this was such a big deal for the church is because first of all, God becomes incarnate, right? So he takes on a body. And then Jesus through the resurrection, a bodily resurrection, really gives dignity to the body and to the material world.

<Mm hmm.> Okay, so the thing about Gnosticism was, it was kind of this affront to Christianity, even though it tried to incorporate itself into it, because there was a lot that could be taken as Gnostic, and that's where you get at this idea of the Gnostic Gospels, right? They take all these Christian sayings, they elevate them to these spiritual truths, and then push all the material, the physical world out, and it becomes Gnostic, right?

J.R.: Right. 

David: Anyway, that's the whole background. But that's the idea of Gnosticism, is this idea that this world we live in isn't that important, it's all going to be destroyed anyway. What is important is elevating yourself to [00:20:00] this higher spiritual realm, to this higher spiritual plane, right? And I was almost thinking that you could think of virtual reality as almost, I say, a secular Gnosticism. Because there's not really a spiritual component. But what I mean by that is people who immerse themselves in this alternate reality almost hold this belief that that is the world that's important. You know, it's not my friends and my family. It's not my job. It's not what I do in my community. It's my identity that is shaped in this virtual world, which is just maybe a secular way of talking about a higher elevated spiritual plane.

I guess that's where i'm getting at. I don't know. Does that make sense? 

J.R.: No, that makes perfect sense Well, you know when you talk about gnosticism, it was always kind of this secret knowledge component to gnosticism that people were attracted to.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: It's interesting that you talked about the material world doesn't matter and what popped right in my head Is that your body is a temple, you know. And that there is a Christian value to the material world with the [00:21:00] recognition that we were made for the spiritual world.

And so, if we just completely abandon the material, it goes back to that idea of tension between two ideas. You know, which is better, the material world or the spiritual world? Well, that's not really the point. There should be a healthy tension between those things. We need to recognize that we're in the material world while understanding that our souls were made for the spiritual realm.

And so we can't ignore that while we're in the material world either. Right? So you have to have this balance between those two ideas, or else you do you kind of go flying off into Gnosticism where they claim that the spiritual world is all that matters. And so then they let their physical situation go, you know, including their neighbors and, those types of things.

And that's not what we were made for. We were made for, figuring out the balance between those things. 

David: Right. We just finished a series on talking about the gospel announcement. And one of the things we repeated over and over again in that series is this idea of the connection between the physical world and the spiritual world, right?

[00:22:00] That we're not just going to get whisked off to heaven one day and exist in some spiritual realm. God's kingdom is actually going to join those two realms together. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: So the early church was very careful to reject any idea that we're just going to be these platonic spirits floating around in heaven one day.

That no, the kingdom of God actually involves you know, redeeming this world, but then lowering the veil, right? We talked about that, between the spiritual realm. So there's this integration between the spiritual realm and the physical world. And if you think about it, that's kind of a key point of Christian thinking, and that's what gives the material world dignity.

That's what gives the human body dignity, right? Because these things aren't just throw away. They're going to be redeemed one day, but they're not just throw away. And you can kind of see this in the virtual world online world, you know, chat rooms, all these kind of different environments where you can almost see, again, the physical world being minimized.

Because if I'm spending [00:23:00] 8, 10, 12 hours a day in this virtual world, my identity is being shaped by that. 

J.R.: Yeah. So you're right. You mentioned you touched on it a second ago about the virtual world that you have this opportunity to kind of be your authentic self, right? that I don't have to be hampered by societal norms and I don't have to be hemmed in. And so I can be more authentic, right? 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And we tend to look at that and say, well, that's a good thing, you know? Well, I mean, society has a function of normalizing behavior. I think Jordan Peterson said something about you're an individual, right? And, but you're nested in your family unit. And then that family unit is nested in the local community. And that local community is what nested in the broader community and that's nested in your national identity, right? There's several layers to your identity and who you are and the problem with the virtual world is that you strip away all of those layers, right?

Now you can try to make the case that that's a good thing and maybe you can. But at least you have to acknowledge that that's not how people have developed in the [00:24:00] previous 5,000 years, right? <Right.> There seems to be some self correction as you navigate through those layers. And if you skip one or several of those layers, you kind of lose a valuable, anchoring, social information. Does that make sense? 

David: Yeah, I think it does. And I do think there is a societal attitude right now that, you should be your authentic self, right? And if your authentic self considers yourself that you don't like your family, or where you grew up, or what country you live in, or, or how you identify, like, then that's a good thing, 

J.R.: Okay, but if that's a good thing, insistence that the individual self is the best thing, then it should be no surprise that we see a rampant, uptick in antisocial behavior. You know what I'm saying? Because we're focusing on the individual, you know?

Okay. So to go back to that idea of the individual nested in the family unit, in broader society, you know, we're part of all those things simultaneously. And so something like, here's an example, something like belching, right. [00:25:00] Burping. That's completely fine at the private individual level. If I'm by myself eating, then it feels good to let out a nice loud one.

Right. < Right.> And, right. So we all do it. But if you do that in a public restaurant, you know, you're going to get some rude looks, right? That's considered anti social behavior. so the point is that we shouldn't be surprised when anti social behavior emerges from what? From a world that doesn't have any of the typical social opposition that you would face from belching in public if that makes any sense. Yeah, so there's certain behaviors that are kind of shaved off when you sift it through different societal layers, you know? And that's kind of how we when you say, this is a normal person. Well, what is normal? Well, normal means that you know how to operate in different layers of society. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And on the individual layer, they know how to operate properly there. On the family layer, on the societal layer, when you go out to eat, you know how to operate in those arenas. And when you strip away all that and value [00:26:00] the individual, then it shouldn't be any surprise when there's this massive uptick of these weird antisocial, what we would call antisocial behaviors, and the attempt to try to normalize those. 

David: Right. So on the surface, I think to take a step back, because I think you're onto something, on the surface, most people would say, yes, people should be free to be their authentic selves. However, what that's ignoring is that childhood, in high school, as an adolescent, you know, even in college, it's like, you're being shaped by other people around you and those relationships. Your family, where you grew up, all the things you had referenced. All those things are shaping you. And I think some in our society even today would say, Well, that's a bad thing. You should just be your authentic self. But then what happens is exactly what you're talking about.

You're seeing a rise in antisocial behavior. You're seeing people not more engaged in relationships. You're seeing them actually less engaged in relationships. You're seeing people who are trying to express their [00:27:00] true identity, you know, let's just be honest, it's a little weird. And then they wonder why they can't get a job.

Here's an example we talked about before we started recording, right? Is every now and then you'll see a TikTok video or something with a group of videos who are expressing regret about something they did, right? And I think of the one with the face tattoo and the lip piercings.

And the dude's 30 years old and he's lamenting the fact that no one will hire him. And you go, well, of course not. You know, you probably shouldn't have wanted to be a banker in the first place because no one's going to hand their money over to you. And look, you can complain about that all you want, how unfair that is, how that guy should just be his authentic self.

The flip side of that is there are societal norms. Now, sometimes they're not always good, but most of the time they actually. Societal norms are just another way, I think, of saying societal agreements by which I can look at you, you can look at me, we can trust each other, I, you know? We can shake hands, we can do business together. And when we don't want to [00:28:00] conform to those at all, then don't be surprised when no one wants to do any of those things I just listed, right? 

J.R.: Right. No, that's a good point. The guy with the face tattoos has insisted on his individuality over the society, right?

You know, full well, but that's not really normal in society to have, you know, the blacked out eyes and these things change. Yeah. So there may be a day when that's normal. I don't know. But for right now, we all know that that's not normal in society. And so the very thing that pushed you to push your individuality. The reason they do these things is because it's a shock. If it were normal, they'd find some other way to express their individuality, right? So right so they push their individuality at the expense of society or societal norms. And then they lament the fact that, you're right, that the society has turned their back on them when that was the whole point to begin with right?

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: So we all know that we all have individual preferences. But when someone insists on their individual preference over the [00:29:00] group, we all know that that's selfish. You know, so if if we get a group of four or five people together to go to eat, and I'm feeling like Chinese and nobody else is feeling that way. But I insist on it, maybe even to the point that says, you know what? You guys just go ahead, go do your own thing. I'm going to eat Chinese. People would look at that and say, dude, what a selfish guy. Why would he insist on his individual preference of the moment over the entire group? Can't we all agree on something? 

Well, that's what society is. It's just sort of agreed upon norms. And when you, elevate the individual at the expense of society, that fractures society. We can kind of steer this back to Virtual Reality, but I think we can all agree that society is pretty fractured right now. And I think one of the many reasons for that is that there's an insistence on the individuality of people over the group. And I think virtual reality, online social media, online virtual worlds I think that reinforces the individual. <Right, right.> Yeah, that reinforces the individual [00:30:00] preferences, and it does it at the expense of the broader group. 

David: Yeah. I think that's a good example, because as you were talking, I was thinking, look, our intent is not to dog anyone with a tattoo or, you know, any, any single example. It's not one example we're talking about.

These are just kind of ideas we're throwing out. But I think your example about wanting to go to your Chinese restaurant, and so I'm going to be my authentic self and just go by myself. Like, I think that's a good definition of what we might talk about societal norms. That societal norms is just putting aside my preferences in order to participate in a larger society.

Whether that's my family, whether that's my workplace, whether that's my city that I live in, you know, the country I'm a part of. Like, all of those things. Choices to participate involve at some level putting aside a personal preference, right? 

I mean, I could say I'm an introvert. There are a lot of times that I would just assume not go out. That is my authentic self. But I also know that it's not [00:31:00] healthy to not be around other people. I also know that it would disrespect or disappoint my wife when she says, Hey, you know, friends of mine want to go out. And i'm thinking well, I don't want to go out, you know? But i'm going to go out, right? And so we're always making these little choices to put aside our own preferences we could use the language of today.

We could put aside our own authentic selves in order to participate in society. So I think that's a better way of talking about societal norms and what they are. 

J.R.: no, I think that's exactly right. You're right that it's easy to say, well, your individuality is a great thing, and it is. <Yeah.> But being part of a community means putting that aside so that I can engage in deeper community.

I said this to someone the other day that one of the problems with social media is that, or let's just say Google in general, you know, the fact that we have all this information at our fingertips is that if you, let's say you bought a dog and you didn't know how to raise it. Well before social [00:32:00] media, before Instagram, and TikTok, and Google, you would go to somebody you know. It's like, Hey, this guy has a bunch of dogs you know? He may be able to give me some pointers. He may be able to give me some tips on how to raise this dog. But what happened is social media comes along and we do two things. Well, first of all, we feel like experts because we have all this information at our fingertips that, Oh here's the way to the best way to raise a dog and the best food that I can give the dog and all the little specifics about raising a pet.

So you feel like an expert. Even though you haven't really gone through it very much even though this is your first dog perhaps. And then the second thing it does is it actually disconnects you from society because you don't have those conversations that you used to have in asking your friends. Hey, man I'm having problems with my dog jumping up on me or something like that. And so you talk to other people and say how did you know you got a dog? He didn't jump. How did you break him from doing that? Right? And so you have these normal social conversations that I think the again, the virtual world or the [00:33:00] Internet or the ready information to unlimited information.

I think that kind of takes away from the social experience that our ancestors used to have. And that's why what bowling leagues have gone down and clubs in general. All that has dropped down right because we can kind of retreat into our own virtual world. It probably started with just regular television, even though you don't think of television as quote unquote virtual reality. It's a virtual way to disengage from society and just kind of unwind and do your thing. And you know just like anything new, we kind of don't know when to stop pull away from the TV, or when, to set down the phone, or when to put down the gaming controller.

There are some of us that just have trouble navigating that, right? But all of it pulls you away from your community. 

David: Right. And how much information has been passed down, look, not to be overly dramatic, but just through history, just because people talk to each other, pass information on, you know? <Right.>

I was looking at my yard this morning and one of the vines that I [00:34:00] have that has these real bright red flowers. It's all turning yellow and I'm thinking, well, what's that? And it actually occurred to me, I'm like, you know, in the old days, I would just ask my neighbor. Hey, you know, you got any idea what that is?

But you're right, today we just Google it and I don't have to interact with anyone, so. <Right.> And it's this false sense that I'm learning about something and I know about something. But I, it's almost like what's the value of that if I'm actually not interacting with other people with that knowledge, so to speak. Maybe that's a bad example about the plant, but I have that. 

J.R.: It's the self checkout phenomenon. People complain about checkout because you don't have, you know, some people love it because you don't have to interact with somebody. You can just check yourself out. And then some people complain about it.

It's like, man, I, you know. would like to talk to the checkout person and say, Hey, how's your day? You know, more gregarious person might say that. And and it is kind of this technology comes along, any technology comes along and it kind of makes things easier in some ways. But I don't think we understand that, when it pulls us away from our community, when it pulls us [00:35:00] away from human interaction, that's not a healthy response. 

David: Yeah, and ironically, social media originally was pitched as this way to connect with other people more easily. <Right.> And you know, we're what 15 years into this 20 years maybe and I think we can actually see that's having the opposite effect: that it's actually isolating me. 

J.R.: Right, it connects long lost whatever friends high school friends. There's this kind of neat aspect to it. But, no, that kind of wore off real quick and it just turned out that people dive into it and get lost in it. <Right.> they don't go out on Friday nights and they don't connect with other people because they're, completely up to date with everybody because of social media, right?

David: So, we talked about this whole idea of being your authentic self and I want to acknowledge the other side of that, too, is you've seen people who go out into society and they don't know who they are. And they're defined by everyone around them. And so we just kind of want to acknowledge that too as a danger. I think you were talking about that earlier because that's the flip side of that [00:36:00] being your authentic self is you're just defined by everyone around you and you really have no idea who you are. 

J.R.: Right. I work in college and And one thing I say is that high school is all about conformity and college is all about individuality. And that's a broad explanation. But when you're in high school, we've all had that high school experience where you got to wear the right clothes, you know? It's a pretty narrow lane of what you wear, how you act. And then when you get to college the rules change a little bit and, individuality is a lot more respected, right? If you were in band in high school, you're probably uncool. But you go to college with that Hey, you know, that's that you you've got your group man.

I mean, yeah, you play an instrument, well, I mean people value that stuff and so you're right that there is a shift in the rules. And the problem is is if you really know how to play the game in high school, you actually have problems going to college because the rules have changed a lot of times, right?

<Right.> If you're really really good at both of those college and high school, then sometimes you get into the real world and [00:37:00] you don't know the rules have changed again. And so you're not so you're always you're always learning the new rules of your new arena that you're in. And that's just kind of the way life works. And again to go back to the virtual reality space is when you immerse yourself in the virtual world all of those societal pushbacks that make you who you are and all of those rule changes because you're going from high school to college to the work world, those are actually helpful.

I mean, right? They're not always comfortable, but they're actually helpful in the long run. They make you a stronger more well rounded, more well versed person. But when you find all your value in the virtual world, well, I mean that's it's just one of those things that doesn't translate well into the real world.

David: Right. And so I think to summarize everything we just talked about is what you just said. Is the more you live your life in this virtual world kind of quote being your authentic self, the less you're actually getting all of these social cues, right? Elementary school, high school, college, your first job, all those things are giving you [00:38:00] social cues.

They're actually making you probably less selfish person, right? Less of a narcissist. And you're learning kind of the rules of interacting with other people. What's acceptable, what's not. Well, I think what we're seeing, the danger of this virtual world, is that people are spending, really from childhood now, we're seeing a generation grow up, but, you know, I know adults too who get off work and they just go gaming for the next eight hours.

So, it's not just one generation. But the draw of the virtual world is, I can be my authentic self. But what's actually happening is, I'm not letting society kind of chip off all the rough edges around me. It's like when you get in a relationship, You and your partner start chipping off the little annoying pieces of you, that don't mesh well with other people. Or don't mesh well in a relationship. And you know, that's what a relationship is. And if you have a good partner, then you're becoming a better person, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: You're not becoming less of your authentic self. Well that happens at a [00:39:00] macro level all the time. But you know, especially since Covid I mean you could have kids going to school online. And then gaming the rest of the day and that happens year after year. And yeah to bring it back to what we said early on is you have these kids entering adulthood starting to exhibit anti social behavior, you know, in the quest of like, being their authentic self.

J.R.: Yes, I was going to bring up the virtual education, you know, due to COVID. In one sense, it's like, that should be perfectly fine. If school is about giving and retaining information, well, why can't you do that virtually? And what we found out is, yeah, there's a lot more going on when you put kids in classrooms, you know, that there's a social aspect that we've lost and that we're seeing the results of from, you know, four, five, years later.

And I think we're going to continue to see. I think we're going to see results of this, you know, for the next generation, I think. <Sure.> We're going to be constantly going back to man, when COVID hit this happened, it changed the game. It seemed like a decent idea to let's just [00:40:00] have Zoom classes and get this information online and not be together and spreading germs, things like that. But, we lost so much social interaction. We lost so much socialization from our kids. If you were unfortunate enough to be in school during those years. 

David: Yeah and so I think we can agree that virtual reality is not going to go away. It's only become more pervasive in society. And there's going to be even more of a draw to what go live this alternative life is in a place that is totally accepting, totally comfortable, totally lets me be myself without any of the actual social interactions, right?

J.R.: Well, yeah. So to go back to your first point, it's just you got to have the right balance of it. There's nothing wrong with these new technologies. There's all kinds of good things from them, but you just got to have the right balance. And if you insist on spending too much time in the virtual world at the expense of the real world and your real world interactions and relationships, man, you're just going to live an unbalanced life. And I think we're seeing that a lot of ways. 

David: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:00] We're not saying you can't have a VR headset and play games and think, you know, immerse yourself in different experiences. But yeah, exactly, there's a balance. And I think we're starting to see some bigger dangers overall of immersing yourself unbalanced in virtual reality, or telling yourself, maybe a better way to say it is telling yourself that whatever virtual world you exist in, that's the real world and that's the one that matters, right? Almost back to that idea of secular Gnosticism. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: One of the interesting ones that I wrote down is the inability to distinguish truth. And we've talked about truth a lot on this podcast, that that which corresponds to reality, that's what's true, And so we don't make our own truth up.

Truth is what allows me to navigate the world. It's almost like a map that allows me to navigate the world, and it's accurate, and so I can trust it. It might be another way to say that. So one of the dangers in virtual reality is you know, we see all these deep fakes, right? You see that in the news [00:42:00]now, but we're increasingly being told that what we see with our eyes isn't real. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And you're seeing that more and more, you know, even you see that in the media. Everyone sees something unfold and then you watch the media and they say oh no that didn't happen. You're like, but, but I saw it, but you know, how's that relate to virtual reality?

Well, virtual reality I would say what, lessens our ability to distinguish when that's actually happening. Cause it all starts to run together. Well, I saw something online and then this happened in my real life and because I exist in both worlds a lot, you know, all of a sudden it's like, well, I don't know what was real actually.

J.R.: Well, you see this a lot in Twitter or X now, is that when you jump on X, because it's curated to your particular interests, it turns into an echo chamber to reinforce whatever conspiracy theory, if you're conspiratorial, or whatever your political ideology is. And before long you can, I mean, good night, when the Trump assassination, I jumped on X to [00:43:00] kind of get the latest stuff. There were some, it was just the craziest posts and the craziest ideas were out there. And I was running down some of those rabbit holes for a while, you know, I was like, man, I wonder if this is true. This guy says that he saw this at the rally and yeah, it just blurs reality.

And it also kind of gets you where you don't really trust the regular avenues of information because everybody has this voice and it's all curated and funneled into your news feed that it's hard to distinguish truth from reality. 

David: Yeah, another aspect of this is then the inability to live in truth means that we live disoriented and fractured lives. And that's another aspect of this larger idea of virtual reality.

And I was thinking about this, one thing I wrote down was it can create overconfidence for living in reality. But then I heard someone else talking about a different subject, but it can also create paralysis when we're trying to engage in the real world, right? And that's this idea of a disintegrated life.

So, you know, first [00:44:00] is this idea that it can create overconfidence for living in reality. 

J.R.: One of the things that I always do in my virtual reality headset, I think I've said this before is I've got this boxing game. It's a workout thing, so I'm not actually fighting somebody, but it is. I'm going through these boxing moves and, you know, I do it for 15, 20 minutes, work up a good sweat. But yeah, I could have that confidence when I put the headset down that man, I'm really learning something. And I probably am on some, I mean, I'm sure my technique is getting better.

So there are some aspects that probably are getting better just from the muscle movement. But yeah, the idea that I could now go pick a fight and wail on some guy. Like, I would probably find out, the humiliatingly hard way that that it doesn't, the virtual world doesn't translate well to the real world.

David: Yeah. And we talk about this, you know, with fighting. You can talk about it with sports, you know, the 15 year old kid who can beat Tom Brady at football, you know, playing a video game. You look, it's the danger of pornography, right? Like, hey, online, I'm a stud, you know, all the ladies love me. But I get back, you know, [00:45:00] again in my class at college or I go to a bar and suddenly I'm like a blubbering idiot and I can't figure out why none of these actual women, you know, want to spend any time with me. 

J.R.: Yeah, you've engaged too much in the false reality with the things that you think, well, the things that work in pornography, they don't work in the real world. 

David: Yeah, so it can create this overconfidence, but then on the other hand, it can also create this paralysis. And we kind of alluded this earlier There's this overload of information that can actually cause paralysis and we were all in Tallahassee last weekend including your daughter and we were kind of laughing sitting around the table because your daughter just got a puppy, right?

J.R.: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David: And you were saying overwhelming Yeah, you were saying though that she's watched all the videos. You know read all the books about how to deal with this specific breed. But then when she got the actual puppy, it was just overwhelming to her, right?

J.R.: Right, right all the preparation in the world couldn't prepare her.

David: Right? all the information, everything we just talked about. But there's a difference [00:46:00]between all that and actually having this puppy that's constantly crying and needs to go out and why is it crying again? And how do I get rid of all this energy? 

J.R.: This is a great example, because you just said that the virtual world can create overconfidence in living reality. <Yeah.> Before they got the puppy, dude, they knew everything. They had so much information. They had looked all this stuff up. They were going to be experts. And then the puppy shows up and now they've got this paralysis, exactly what you were saying. They got this paralysis in dealing with the realities of, she's biting too much or she's jumping on you or you can't calm her down, right?

You know just typical puppy stuff, but yeah. So it is funny that before they got the puppy, they were over confident. And after they got the puppy, they're paralyzed because there's so much information. Well, how do you get a dog to stop biting? Again, well, you know, there's 50 different ways. You take all that information and you leave thinking all I can do is just try one of these things one at a time, but I'm not sure it'll work, you know, I think so.

I've heard this example before that if you walked [00:47:00] into a grocery store, Walmart, whatever, and you were buying shampoo and there's four different shampoos on the shelf. Well, you can probably look at them and say, well, this is for dandruff. This is for this, and you know, you probably will grab one of the shampoos and say, this looks like it'll be best for me.

And you would leave with pretty strong confidence that among the four shampoos, you probably got the right one. But if you have a hundred shampoos on the shelf, what's the probability that you're actually walking out of the store with the best shampoo for you? I mean, it's one in 100.

Yeah. It's virtually zero. And so it's a dumb example, but it does kind of give you that idea of when you have too much information, when you have too many options, that's actually a bad thing that creates anxiety. Because anxiety is the multiplicity of options and you don't know which one to pick. The virtual world does create that because it basically gives you unlimited information. 

David: Right. Yeah. And another, I think we talked about this. Actually, we were together last weekend and we didn't have time to record an episode. That's why we're doing this virtually. 

J.R.: Yeah, too much.

David: But we were [00:48:00] also talking about the idea of creating a map in your head that technology has given us the ability to say, look, I can get anywhere. Just give me an address, right? And I can get there. <Right.> And yet, if for some reason, I don't have a phone or experience sometime when you go to a different country and you find yourself in another city and maybe there's no cell phone reception there or something, all of a sudden you're totally disoriented.

And the reason is, is because you haven't created this map in your head, right? The sun came up over here, it set over there, that's north, that's the water, you know. So I have this map in my head. And so, if you took my phone away, I would like to think that in most places, I'd still be able to generally go in the right direction.

You see people nowadays who, if you took their phone away, they wouldn't know how to get to the end of the block, right? 

J.R.: Right, yeah, they can't get to work. 

David: Yeah, and so there's something about, like, information overload, you might say it this way, if you think about it this way, almost prevents you from making these mental maps of the world you're living [00:49:00] in. And then when all that information is gone, you don't even have the map. 

J.R.: Right, you don't have the navigation, the internal navigation mechanisms to operate. You know, like you said, you can't even get to get home. 

David: Right, whether it's directions, whether it's a puppy, whether it's a relationship like I haven't mapped this out yet. <Yeah.> And so I don't know what to do in this situation. <Right.> And that's what creates the paralysis. 

J.R.: Yeah, to go back to the conversational social aspect of it, you used to ask somebody, Hey, how do I get to this house or this business? And somebody would say, Oh yeah, you know, you, you go down here and there's a whole story. There's like a narrative. 

David: Oh yeah. Fred, Fred, wave at Fred. He knows me, you know. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, you know where the McDonald's is? Yeah, okay, so go there, take a left, and then do the, you know, and they kind of draw it out in this story. Well, the story sticks in your head, and you can actually navigate there pretty well. 

David: Right, the story's creating a map in your head. 

J.R.: Yes, yes, exactly. And Google Maps, your phone, has changed that to wonderful convenience. I love it. <Oh, yeah.> But, at the same time you wonder why especially younger generations [00:50:00]because we kind of went through obviously the old paper map generation. But yeah younger generations are gonna have trouble navigating just the streets because they rely so heavily on Google Maps.

And in the same way, I think younger generations are going to have trouble navigating life because they, put too much emphasis on the technology in their pockets, whether that's the information that they get to go back to the dog situation on how to raise a puppy or how to have a meaningful marriage and a meaningful relationship.

You can find that stuff all day long. And it's almost like there's just way too much information out there to parse and you, what we need to get back to is, let's just get to how to navigate the world in general. And maybe that will reflect in our relationships, my marriage, how good a father or mother I am, right? 

David: And I like that image of creating a mental map, whether it's again, relationship again, thinking your workplace. Well, I work remotely , virtually, ironically, but.

J.R.: Me too. 

David: Yeah, we both do now. But in your workplace, you know, [00:51:00] you were creating mental maps of the workplace. Here's where the break room is.

If you need to know anything about the company, go talk to this person, right? <Right.> You talk to this person, they seem to be an expert on where to go, a good place to grab lunch or something, or coffee, take a break. Like, in all these little simple examples, you're mapping the world that you're living in. <Yeah.> And when you retreat into these virtual worlds, you may be mapping that virtual world, but you're not mapping the real world around you. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And it's as we're continuing to talk several times, I've thought, well, this really isn't virtual reality. It seems like we're going off target a little bit. But what we're trying to say is that the technology that we have that we use to navigate the world, whether it be Google Maps or whether it be other things, it actually takes you away. It draws you away from the face to face interaction that generations before us had that they took for granted. But actually helpful in how to navigate the world and, yeah, and not [00:52:00] be tied up with anxiety and not to deal with depression, you know? Depression, anxiety all those things have skyrocketed here in the past 10, 15, 20 years. <Right.> it kind of coincides with the technology that's in our pockets a lot of ways. <Yeah, yeah.> And I think it's kind of that interaction with the virtual world versus the real material world. 

David: To play off our last series also about the gospel announcement, the last thing I wrote down is just, we substitute virtual living for life in the kingdom of God.

And again, go back and listen to that series. It was a good series, an interesting series. But living in this world is not just biding our time until we go to heaven. It's actually living life in God's kingdom now. And living in a virtual space isn't really conducive to living out God's kingdom, right?

I know it's a broad concept, but there's also something everything we've been talking about, like, Hey, go out and love your neighbor, right? You actually have to talk to your neighbor, right? Go out and do these things, you know, become a better person, sharpen the [00:53:00] virtues in you. All those things have to happen in a real world environment.

And as much as we'd like to think they can happen in a virtual simulation, I'm not sure they can. 

J.R.: No, I don't think they can at all. It does help out in small ways, but it definitely is not a substitute.

<Right.> And when you, when you said earlier about the overconfidence, the problem with the virtual world is it creates overconfidence. This just popped in my head is that we feel like we can go out there and change the world. But, we don't get along with our neighbor or we don't speak to our neighbor maybe, And it kind of does, it it creates this imbalance where I don't think that used to be the problem. I think that you would get along with your neighbor and then you'd kind of get along with several neighbors. And then you would create a community and maybe you would learn to navigate that and rise to the top of that and be a leader in your community. And then you might be a leader in your state. And so there was kind of this natural progression to things. 

But because all these barriers have been dropped down or gone in the virtual world, we feel like we can go straight from moving out of mom and dad's house to being an [00:54:00] influencer to you know, jumping into world politics and solving the Middle Eastern crisis.

And you know what I mean? It's just kind of this, we think we can go from one to 100 kind of overnight, because you kind of can in the virtual world. That's what, we mean when we say, something goes viral. It's like goes from one to a hundred that happens in the virtual world.

That doesn't happen in the real world. And so, because we see that we think that, that translates and it doesn't, you know? There's just a progression to things. <Right.> And, yeah, we've lost all that. 

David: Yeah, and you're right. It does happen from time to time. Someone goes to an overnight sensation, goes viral.

I think more and more a lot of people think that that's what should happen. Well, I just gotta create the right video and, you know, man, I'll be a sensation. <Right.> It's like, you better have a fallback plan.

J.R.: Yeah. Because in the real world, it's extremely rare to be a great high school quarterback and have the opportunity and then jump to the pros, right? It just doesn't happen, right? You just got to go through the progression of sitting the bench for a little while. Rising to the top, you know, and then moving [00:55:00] on to the next thing. But you're right in the virtual world you can kind of bypass all of that. And so we kind of think wouldn't that be cool if that happened in the real world? <Yeah.> And then we're disappointed when it doesn't and so you've you're a 25 year old failure. 

David: Yeah, failure to launch. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. 

David: So, have you ever watched the show Black Mirror? I think i've asked you this? 

J.R.: Yes, I've said I haven't I haven't faithfully seen all the episodes Oh, I hear about episodes on whatever podcast or something and then i'll go watch it. But no, I haven't watched all of them. Okay, which one are you talking about? 

David: I've watched ... 

J.R.: Because they're all kind of standalone. 

David: Yeah, I've watched all of them. Well, it's an interesting show because they're standalone and yet they're somehow tied together because they always make reference of a small thing that happened two episodes ago or something. So they're standalones, but they're - it's, in a neat way, there's this thread that runs through them.

But there was this episode that I thought actually captured this tension perfectly. Which is, I can't remember the name of it, but someone had invented a way to upload your memory to the virtual world. Right? But [00:56:00] in order to do it, I don't know if you saw this one, but in order to do it, your body had to be suspended in sleep basically. So it was being offered to end of life people and they would put your body in this idea of suspended animation and then upload your memories to a virtual world. And you could choose the virtual world, right? So if you like living in the mountains, you could all of a sudden spend eternity living in a cabin in the mountains or you could spend it at a beach, right?

And so, initially, everyone was like, wow, this is a dream come true, this is a great thing. But then it starts to, as Black Mirror, as the show does, it always starts to present the other side, right? And one of the sides that they presented was, if we suspend your body, if we put your body in this suspended animation, you won't die.

And then, I think, the woman's priest or woman's friend said, basically, like, Look, if you believe there's an afterlife, then your body will never go there. So the choice then becomes, do [00:57:00] you live in this virtual world that technology is offering you, or do you live your life and then sort of take your chances in your belief in the afterlife?

Which we're gonna talk about this next time, which is, you know, paradise, right? Which would you rather? Well, you'd rather live in paradise. That takes an act of faith, and so the person on the show actually chose to live her life in this suspended animation, virtual world. And the implication was, well, you may actually miss out on something better, right?

And I thought, man, that's a perfect picture of the conundrum. 

J.R.: No, that is. Okay, so I googled that. It is San Junipero. Season three, episode four. 

David: Yeah. Fascinating episode. 

J.R.: I'm going to add that to my list. I want to watch that. That's an interesting twist. Black Mirror kind of always, that's what it does. It has this new technology and it kind of it paints a rosy picture and then comes back with this.

David: And then yeah, shows the dark side. 

J.R.: Yeah, it has this twist to it. So, that's the kind of thing. No, I'll have to check that out. But no, that's interesting. That's interesting. So, you're saying as long as you were in the virtual world, you're in [00:58:00] suspended animation in the physical world, and therefore you never die, and therefore you never actually go to the afterlife.

David: You never participate in whatever afterlife might be there. Yeah, that was kind of the implication. And I thought, well, that's a, that's an interesting, what, parallel to what we just talked about. to wrap all this up, I can go be my authentic self in this virtual world, I can go be whatever I want to be in this virtual world, but am I actually being the person God created me to be?

The person who's going to live in God's kingdom one day. <Yes.> Right? And you start to see this trade off happening, and it's like, no, that's not what you were created for. You were created to go live in this kingdom. You were created for an afterlife, that you're going to be totally unprepared for if you spent all this time having your world defined by, you know, a virtual world, right?

J.R.: Well, it just goes back to where we started, you know, is, there's a tension between the spiritual and the physical, and we are, we're created ultimately for the spiritual world, [00:59:00] but , we've got 80 years, hopefully 90 years in this physical world, and we have to learn how to navigate that as well.

And to just disregard the one for the other is to create a huge imbalance. 

David: Right. 

J.R.: And, I think it ties in well with God's kingdom can actually be part of this physical world, or at least it can be part of your sphere of influence. You can create, you can tend your garden, you know. 

Adam was not told to tend the entire world. He was told to tend a specific garden and that was his influence. That was his sphere. Now it was in the broader world, but that he was told to tend the garden. And that's what we're called to do. So we can tend our world here on this life and invite God's kingdom into that and actually be a part of that.

But when we're constantly retreating to virtual worlds, whatever that may be, whether it's the headset or whether it's the phone then you're actually pulling yourself out of that garden, and that's what you were created for. <Yeah.> And yeah, it creates a difficult imbalance. Sure. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Well said, I like that. 

David: That's a [01:00:00] good way to wrap this up. If you were looking for video game reviews, we apologize, but I know if you're hearing this. 

J.R.: My twitch channel, Yeah.

David: Then you then you stuck with us. So Yeah, that's good for you.

J.R.: Yeah, next time we'll talk about Call of Duty or something, right? We'll get into the real video game. What do you say? 

David: Yeah, sure. Maybe this will just become a video game review. 

J.R.: You're not a gamer, man. 

David: I know, I know. 

J.R.: What's the last video game? Tell me the last video game that you kind of got into that you'd say, yeah. Is, is there anything? I mean, surely we're not going back to Jungle King. 

David: Uh, No, it was, for a while, I played, what is it, NBA 2K, whatever it was. 

J.R.: Okay, yeah. 

David: You know, so, yeah, and it's been a long time ago, but, yeah, I played a couple of seasons where I was the Chicago Bulls and, played the whole season out and got into it, yeah. But yeah, that's about the extent gamer. 

J.R.: So you don't get sucked into this stuff. And I tend to not do it either. You know, there's been a few times, you know, when I've gotten pulled into a game series. But nah, it wasn't very long, you know. <Yeah.> Maybe a month or two. So there's something about our personality that doesn't seem to get sucked into the video game thing. 

David: Yeah, yeah, that's true. No, I have people who [01:01:00] ask me what kind of gaming chair I have. You know, I just look at them like, I don't know what you're talking about. And they look at me like I'm weird, so. 

J.R.: Yeah, these are people your age?

David: A little younger, but yeah, we're not talking about kids here. But, yeah, the gaming chairs and the headsets and the speakers and yeah. I know people, I know some people in my work, that's their life when they get off work. You know? 

J.R.: Oh, wow. These people aren't married, are they? I'm assuming. 

David: Probably not, yes.

J.R.: Too much to deal with, man. Or don't have kids or something. Alright, so next week, where are we going? 

David: No, so next episode, yeah, we are going to talk about Paradise versus Utopia. 

J.R.: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that because you look at those two words paradise and utopia and they seem to be the same thing. But you're saying there's a big difference between the two concepts.

David: Yeah, there's a big difference between the two and that's we're gonna talk about next episode

J.R.: All right. I can't wait. Let's jump in. 

David: All right. Well, thanks for listening. You can connect with us a lot of different ways. If you expand the show description, the show notes, depending on what your app you're on, It'll give you links to the website, to our Facebook page, all the ways you can [01:02:00] connect with us. We'd love to hear from you and we will talk to you next episode. 

J.R.: Great. We'll see you then.