Agamemnon & Abraham

In this episode, we explore the ancient narratives of Agamemnon’s sacrifice of Iphigenia and Abraham’s near-sacrifice of Isaac, examining their cultural contexts, key similarities, and crucial distinctions. 🔥 Along the way, we discuss Jephthah’s tragic vow and its implications in light of these stories, reflecting on how these ancient sacrifices continue to shape theological and philosophical thought today. 💡Join us as we weave together history, myth, and faith, continuing our discussions inspired by our journey through Greece on Navigating An Ancient Faith. 🇬🇷

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Listen to Mythic Stories of the Judges: Jephthah

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Chapters

• 0:00 Mycenae and Agamemnon's Story
• 12:39 The Aftermath of Agamemnon's Choices
• 19:42 Jephthah's Foolish Vow
• 27:58 Abraham and Isaac: A Test of Faith
• 36:23 The Broader Narrative of Sacrifice in the Bible
• 46:22 Modern Interpretations and Lessons

Transcript

Agamemnon and Abraham

David: [00:00:00] I think one time I do remember telling mom I was going to run away. And I went to the bamboo forest, you know, by our house. 

And, you know, to mom's credit again, like she just let me go, you know, she's like, well, okay, you know, and I think an hour later about dinnertime, I showed up back at the house. That's usually how that works out she's like 

JR: Well, the funny thing today that's like you call the cops for that. let your kid out of your sight. 

David: That's child abuse. 

JR: In the woods.

David: child abuse nowadays.

JR: Yeah, child abuse. Sure.

David: Oh, all right. So where are we going with this?  

Okay. So our listeners don't know this, but we just spent an hour and a half troubleshooting. We had our process down so well. We just jump in and record and we just, the recording software we used changed some kind of policy and it messed us all up.

JR: "Upgraded."

David: Yeah, everything means that. Yeah. It means everything was shifted to the pro version, which means that we are, we're just out of luck anymore. So.

JR: I guess so. Yeah, we won't [00:01:00] get into it. It was a little bit frustrating, but we had, good conversation while we attempted to get everything working.

David: Yeah.

JR: Never get anything recorded. Mine wouldn't pick up specifically. So I don't know what the problem was.

David: Yeah. Anyway, we'll put that behind us. We are ready to continue on our conversations that we had on our Greece trip last October. And so last time we talked about serpents and symbols. We did an overview of the Greece trip. So we've been talking about these are the kind of conversations that you and I have when we're on trips like these.

We, you know, we go to these sites, then we go to dinner. So I thought, here's a question. So I thought we'd start out to get us in the right place headspace is,

JR: Okay.

David: what was your favorite dinner that we had?

JR: Okay. So what immediately popped in my head was that man, what was that seafood dish that is, I particularly had? I think you tasted it and said, yeah, I ordered the wrong thing. 

David: It was that?

JR: it was on that coastal little town, kind of that little vacation town. I know exactly where it's at, but I forget what the dish was called.

David: Was it the one that kept like, seafood saganaki or [00:02:00] something like that?

JR: Yeah. Yeah. That was

David: That was it?

JR: Yes. That was the thing we had to look up. we tried it a couple of places, but the first place we had, Oh, it was fantastic. And it was some sort of, I guess it was kind of the sauce. It was kind of this vodka type sauce.

Yeah, it was fantastic.

David: Okay, yeah, so that was in Napflio then.

JR: Naplio. Yes, correct.

David: Okay, yeah.

JR: And I wish I'd give a shout out to the restaurant, but I have no idea. I'd have to go to my, I'd have to dig out my journal to figure out where that was at. Anyway, what was yours?

David: So mine was let me remember this. Okay. It was in Kalamata and remember we tried to go to that one restaurant and it was closed.

JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David: But to the guy's credit, the, whatever the waiter, he was closing up and it was like like six o'clock PM or I don't, we're like, I don't know what this is about, but the waiter said, you know, we're closing.

So can't seat you or anything like that as we're about to close. But he said, if you want a good place to eat, go to this restaurant and he said, it's a little bit of a walk, but you know, you and I just don't mind walking a mile or two or whatever. So we headed out and [00:03:00] we get out of the, if you could even call it a tourist area, but cause it was not a tourist town, but of

JR: It was the main city and everybody was there eating, you know, and we did, we kind of got farther away where we really didn't see anybody walking in the street anymore.

David: right. And it was almost a very it was a very local section, you little grocery stores. Yeah. Everything was closed and we started to wonder if we'd made the right decision, but then we saw this little restaurant, sure enough, you know. I said, yep, this is the right place. And we went in and as happened to us quite often, we said, can we have dinner?

And they looked at their watches. It was only like six o'clock and they're like, well, you know, sure. Knock yourself out.

JR: The lunch crowd just left.

David: Yeah, You sure don't want to,

JR: to eat this early, they are late eaters. No doubt.

David: Yes, that's true. So we always had the restaurants to ourselves and they took us out to that back patio area under all those orange trees. And there were some cats wandering around, you know, perfect Greece culture and we had, I can't remember what you had, but I think I had like a lamb shank.

[00:04:00] Oh, it was so good. It was so good.

JR: Yeah. It one of few places that we agreed, look, we're just going to have to both order the same thing. Normally it's like, what are you getting? So I can get something different.

David: Right.

JR: And we'll kind of see who wins, right? See who wins the night. But this, and we just, we're both looking at that lamb shank. And I think the waitress said, this is our best dish. And so we're like, all right. 

David: No sharing. Yeah.

JR: get the same thing. Yeah, no Sharon, just to each their own. And it was, it was fantastic.

David: Yeah. I think that's, if I had to say the best meal I had on that trip, I would say that one probably.

JR: And it's one of those things that we're, when you have whatever the best on a trip like this, you want to try something that obviously that you can't get in the States, but then the bad part of that is now I've had this wonderful meal that I'll never eat again.

that's just in the rear view. I mean, we'll probably never be back to that place. It'll be closed if we happen to make it back, you know.

David: Yeah.

JR: Yeah, good and bad of trying new things.

David: Yeah, but both those restaurants were once we did this every night, you know, we just sit there and process what we observed that day, the sites [00:05:00] we went to. So that kind of gets us in the proper frame headspace of what we're going to talk about today. So already covered the site of Mycenae in our trip overview.

You can go back and listen to that if you haven't heard it. But Mycenae, of course, is the city where Agamemnon, the mythic king, the legendary king, that was his city, right? That was his city state, right? Because more than just a city. It's the whole region was ruled by the city of Mycenae, and Agamemnon was the mythic ruler of that place.

JR: It was definitely an empire at the time.

David: Yes. One of the stronger empires of that region was Mycenae at the time. All right, so we walked around Mycenae, and then we had this conversation because we started to talk about the stories of Agamemnon in Greek myth. Sometimes we had to go remind ourselves what they were, and we'll have to tell this story in a minute.

But then we started talking about one specific aspect of Agamemnon, and that was the sacrifice of his daughter, Iphigenia, and how contrasted [00:06:00] with a couple of incidences you see in the Bible. So that's what we're going to talk about today.

JR: Yeah. Well, , you knew the story. I had to look it up. And I actually had to hit the Google pronunciation, and it came up as Iphigenia.

You're not going to figure it out from the spelling. So anyway, yeah, but you had told me the story and obviously there's a lot of similarities when we talk about the sacrifice of a child.

It automatically popped in our head. It's like, well, you know, the similarities and compare contrast with Abraham and yeah, that's where we're going to go today.

David: Yeah. so anyway, as a bit of a refresher, if you don't know who Agamemnon is, and a lot of people may not, but Agamemnon was this legendary king of Mycenae, and specifically when it comes to Greek mythology, he is the king, along with his brother, Menelaus. And Menelaus is the ruler of a city down south, but they're really the power brokers of the Peloponnese. So, Menelaus is married to a woman named Helen, and she becomes legendary because the [00:07:00] whole thing about Helen of Troy, right? Paris steals off with her, takes her to Troy.

Well, an offense to one is offense to all, so Menelaus says, we can't stand for this. He goes up to Agamemnon, his brother, and he says, we have to go get back my dignity, right, my honor, oh yeah, my wife as well, like, all that's been wounded, right? So, this is the start of the Trojan War, okay? So, according to the story, Agamemnon is on his way to Troy, but he gets stuck on an island.

And I think the island's name is Aulis, A U L I S, and there's no wind. And so, they're stuck. And in those days, if there was no wind, your boat wasn't going anywhere. It's like you ran out of gas. So, his boats are stranded, and his priests come to him and say, Okay, so you have caused Artemis offense. And there's a couple different versions of what he did to cause Artemis offense.

But the bottom line is, you don't offend the gods. Nothing good comes from that, [00:08:00] right? So somehow he gets on Artemis's bad side. Some say he killed a sacred deer. Some say he boasted too much about being the greatest hunter in the world. But it's not the first time this has happened. If you read The Odyssey, one of the things that happens to Odysseus and his crew is they get stranded on this island where all the cattle belong to Apollo. So he tells his men, okay, these are sacred cattle, no one eat anything. But they're like starving and of course someone breaks away and kills a cow, and now they're on Apollo's bad side, right?

JR: Right.

David: You know, similar things happen. So this is what happened. He gets on Artemis's bad side, and the priest says, basically, there will be no more wind until you make things right with Artemis.

JR: It sounds like the typeof thing where, all we do is wait for something bad to happen, whether it's a rainstorm or no wind or whatever, a flat tire of some sort. And then you kind of look in the rear view and say, all right, what have you done? What have you done the last couple of [00:09:00] days? You know, and if you, it's, if it's you or I, it's like,

David: We still do that today.

JR: yeah, maybe I, maybe I watched Netflix a little bit too long, you know, maybe I kind of vegged out this weekend

David: Yeah.

JR: And then a priest would say, oh yeah, well, you've clearly upset whatever God, the Netflix God, and I have to make amends, right? 

David: Yeah. That's right.

JR: that's just how it worked for everything. Right.

David: Yeah. That's how it worked.If something was going wrong, you clearly angered one of the gods, and you had to figure out how to make things right. That was very much the way it was in the ancient world.

JR: Yeah. And priest's, job was just to say, okay, walk me through the past 48 hours and remember that time when you were telling the story about killing the deer? Artemis pretty upset about that one. 

David: Yep, remember when You said not even gods themselves could hunt like you could. I'm going to go out on a limb say,

JR: I didn't mean that literally. Well, you said it. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. So I'm sorry. Continue the story.

David: Okay, so they're stuck on this island. And of course Agamemnon's question is, what do I have to do? And the answer back is that you have to offer your [00:10:00] daughter Iphigenia. That's how I pronounce it. How did you say? Iphigenia? 

JR: Iphigenia, I think.

David: So he has this daughter and he said, you have to sacrifice her to Artemis.

Okay.

JR: Steep price.

David: Yes, so now Agamemnon is faced with the dilemma, right? Do I go forward in this Trojan war with all the glory that awaits me to restore my honor, to restore my brother's honor, but it's going to cost me my daughter. And at the end of the day, he says, well, this is what I have to do. Because it's kind of like in today's world, but much more so magnified is you have to save face in the ancient world. And so we may look at this in horror, But it was just the way things were in the ancient world. To him it's like, well, I don't really have a choice, right?

JR: Yeah. In fairness, she was 14. She was in the talk back phase and dad's lame. And so I think that made the decision a little bit easier.

David: It made it a little easier him. Yeah, Yeah, She smarted back to him one too many times.

JR: Yeah. There you go. [00:11:00] Okay.

David: And I've said this before, but I've seen, I don't know where I saw it. It was in one of the movies. But one of the ways that he lures her to the island is he promises her in marriage to Achilles. Now, again, I don't know if that's part of the myth or that's someone's interpretation, but, 

JR: yeah, so she wasn't with them on the journey.

David: No, no.

JR: her, but he had to bring her there. Okay.

David: So he has to send for her under this false guise, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: Then she gets there and you know, she's like, okay, I've got my best dress and you know, Achilles is a hunk. So he's a catch. So sure. I'm in. Right. And then he says well, actually, right. And ...

JR: Here's the deal.

David: Here's the dad got in over his head, you know, so you're going to have to be sacrificed.

JR: Yeah. We're a family. We all need to make our sacrifices. So here's, here's yours,

David: my pride's been wounded. You literally have to be sacrificed. But yeah, we're all paying the price here. Right? And so that's what happens. 

JR: We're all suffering through this [00:12:00] together. 

David: Yeah So that's what happens in some versions. He doesn't. But there are versions where he, yeah, he sacrifices his daughter. And when he does, we're told the winds pick up. He's like, okay, gets the green light from the gods and he proceeds on to Troy.. Right?

JR: Okay. Sacrifice worked.

David: Yeah, so that's at least some of the backstory. Well, then we know the whole Trojan war, Agamemnon is victorious because of the whole, you know, Trojan horse incident where they sneak in the city finally. It took them 10 years, but they did it.

All the glory is restored. They sail back victorious to Greece, right? Well,

JR: Clearly, the gods are on their side now.

David: Yes. So we might be led to think, well, okay, was it worth it then, right? However, there's this entire other part of the story that I don't think is as well known. Maybe it's a later addition to some of these myths, but he gets back home and his wife, Clytemnestra, and of course we saw the tomb, supposed tomb of Clytemnestra and Agamemnon, right? That's, we talked that in that episode. Clytemnestra is none too [00:13:00] happy sending her little girl off to marry Achilles, right? And then it turns out she gets word that no, dad sacrificed her so he could have his glory in the war. So all this has been happening while he's been gone and Clytemnestra's upset about it. Well, she takes a lover while he's gone. And so he returns and there's a lot of tension in the house, right? And so the story goes that when he was bathing with the help of her lover, whose name was, let me get this right, Aegeus, I think, and I'm probably pronouncing that wrong, but Aegeus or something.

But anyway, so with the help of him, they kill Agamemnon while he's bathing. So he's killed. Okay, now he has a son. This just keeps on going, but this is all important information. So he has a son named Orestes. Orestes now has seen his mother kill his father like he was little when his dad left.

So he's happy dad is back. He didn't really his sister anyway, she was annoying right? He gets her room.

JR: Little bit of bullying going [00:14:00] on. 

David: Yeah, so he is really upset now that his family's honor has been shamed, right? Because now his mom has taken up with the lover who's not dad. And his mom has actually killed dad. So he takes it on himself to say, I have to right things. So he actually goes and he kills his mother and he kills Aegeus. And so this presents one final dilemma, right? Because now, on one hand, is he guilty of matricide? Or was he simply restoring his family's honor? And the last part story that we have is that he gets dragged before the council in Athens, and basically the council in Athens says, Okay, look, we're not okaying the fact that you killed your mother, but this is a pretty complex web that was going on here, so basically, you have avenged what happened to your father.

And that's kind of the end of it. So they didn't put him to death.

JR: off a little bit.

David: Right. Yeah. And actually, in some [00:15:00] stories the goddess Athena intervenes and basically acquits him and says, look, we have to stop this cycle of vengeance going on. Right? 

JR: The pendulum, keeps swinging more and more extreme. Right. which is also classic Greek myth. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: The revenge narrative that pops back and forth and it just keeps going and going.

David: Yeah, and you can even see that in some modern cultures, the revenge killings and you know, someone has to stop it, right? Someone has to the chain. Someone has to say, Yeah.

JR: Shakur, right? I mean, yeah. So somebody's got to put a stop to the East coast, West coast rap battle.

David: Yeah, that's right. Someone had to be the bigger man. I don't know, was it Biggie? Well he ...

JR: No, they both got killed, dude.

David: I know, but

JR: Come on, man. Let's say they're both out in this scenario. Yeah, they're both gone, so.

David: Well, someone.

JR: Didn't want to lose all of our rappers.

David: Yeah, that's right.

JR: Snoop had to step in and dial things back a little bit.

David: Enough blood has been shed. Let's write songs about it. You know, instead. Right?

JR: Let's keep it in the studio.

David: Maybe that's where the whole rap battle, right? 

JR: I think so. I [00:16:00] mean, it's certainly could apply. I don't know if my hop history is a little bit fuzzy. So.

David: Yeah.

JR: But that may be where it came from. Yeah, that's pre rap battle. I think you may be right. They

decided to duke it out on the stage, instead of firing guns on the street. 

David: That's right. That's right.

JR: All right.

David: All right. So that's the story. And I know I went through that really fast, but that's the backstory behind Agamemnon and, you know, his daughter and his wife Clytemnestra, Orestes taking vengeance. And so one of the big morals of this story that we started talking about is Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter for the glory of success in the Trojan War.

And surface, that appears like it worked. However, when you take all of these stories into account, what happens is he traded his family for glory in war, and he ends up losing his entire familial line, his children, his whole family is disgraced. It basically ends in it like this blood feud, right?

It's like the Blood Wedding in Game of [00:17:00] Thrones.

JR: Yeah, yeah. Red wedding. Red wedding. 

Yeah, that was great. Everybody's gone. There's no more family line and the Greeks would have seen this as sort of what that immediate victory might be offered by the gods, but it's going to come at the sacrifice of your family. 

David: Yeah, yeah. And I think,

JR: Long-term failure or something like that, right? and will ultimately be the result.

David: Yeah, that's right. And it's really, I think, meant to let the reader, you know, look at kind of the hubris involved, and was it really worth it? And of course, you know, I think even some of this was a way to say, is it though?

Like, is it?

JR: Is it for the sacrifice of your entire family?

David: Yeah.

JR: Okay. So you and I were talking before when we were trying to figure out the whole audio thing that when you see these familial soap operas, one of the ways you can view that is that it is a metaphor for broader society. maybe the details, you know, of this narrative in either history or myth, however you want to view it is a way of saying the glory of war [00:18:00] and creating an empire and ruling the whole world, is it really good considering 

that we're sacrificing all of our sons to this bloody battle? 

David: Right, yeah.

JR: Yeah. so it's a testament for broader society in general, right?

David: Yeah, yeah. we were talking about fairy tale, and you had made the point that a lot of times when a fairy tale is talking about a family, right, father, and a couple siblings, that that's really a picture of broader society.

JR: Right.

David: And that's a good point. And I think, yeah, I think you can't look at this story about Agamemnon without it being a commentary on broader society in general, of maybe over glorification of war. Something like that.

JR: Yeah, the modern lesson r in the eighties and nineties, you know, kind of the financial success of being a workaholic was glorified, right?

You know, there was the Ferraris there was, you know, I mean, that was kind of put out there to say, look what hard work can get you. And, while people still today fall for the same trap, I do think it's gotten a little bit [00:19:00] better, right? This kind of understanding of you have to have a work life balance. The modern understanding is that life is full of trade offs, right? And if you want to be a workaholic, you're going to do it at the expense of something. It's probably your marriage, probably your family, but the Greeks, the ancients would have seen, they would have said something like, you know, be mindful when the gods offer success, right?

Because it's going to come at the expense of your family.

David: Right. It's going to cost you something.

JR: Right. Yeah. There's trade offs there too. Right. You know, so this is not a new idea. Right.

David: That's true. And they probably didn't have this big idea of work life balance in the ancient times.

JR: I don't think there was work life balance much back then. It was work or starve.

David: Exactly. Yeah. What balance, any balance and I starve, that's what happens, so.

JR: Exactly.

David: So you and I started talking about, so we had this conversation, we were reliving the story as we're walking through the site of Mycenae, right? This amazing hilltop fortress where you can see the bay down below. And one of us said it takes us back to our Judges series, where we talked about this guy named [00:20:00] Jephthah.

JR: Right.

David: Right? Because a very similar incident happens in the book of Judges.

JR: Yeah.

David: Yeah, so Judges chapter 11, one of the judges names is Jephthah, and one of things that you see Jephthah do is he goes to take on one of the enemies of Israel at that time, and he makes this foolish vow, right? Jephthah is known for this foolish vow, and he says, God, if you give me victory in this war, the first thing that comes out of my house, I will offer to you as sacrifice.

JR: Yeah and i think i when we did this episode i think we both agreed that seems just on the face of it like the most absurd thing to say.

I don't think anybody reading this story,does not realize this is about to go very, very wrong, right? The first thing that's coming out the door is not going to be a playful goat, you know, that's going to work out real well for a feast later.

David: Yeah. You don't hear a vow like that , in any kind of narrative and say, Oh, I bet that mean stray dog is going to walk out first. You know, that's,

JR: The annoying [00:21:00] neighbor happens to be borrowing some sugar.

David: Right, that's not going to happen. Right. So, yeah, you're right. It's one of those. If you saw it in a movie and a guy made a vow like that, you would immediately think, okay, what precious thing in this guy's life is about to be sacrificed, right?

JR: Well, for clarity, I think we did say that we think the first thing that comes out of your house, like when you knock on the door or when you come home, what's going to greet you? Well, it may be the dog. It may be your kids. You know, I think the idea was that the first thing that meets me at my gate. It might be a bull, it might be, right. It might be livestock.

David: Right, and it could been large, 

a little bit of clarity.

David: Yeah, yeah, it could have been a large farm, and he's thinking, you know, okay, when I come over the hill, and I reach the gate, the first thing that I see, you know, and maybe he's expecting goats or sheep or a cow or something like that. But as the story unfolds the first thing that runs out to greet him is his only daughter. And he's stuck in this bind. Right? And we talked about this because even, gosh, you even see commentaries [00:22:00] today sometimes wrestle with, well, but he made a vow, right? God expected him to keep it.

JR: Right.

David: And we came to the conclusion that our opinion is that that's a bunch of nonsense.

Right? Like, God does not want him to sacrifice his daughter, but that's exactly what he does.

JR: Right. It's a foolish vow and he follows through with it.

David: That's right. He compounded a foolish vow by not swallowing his pride and following through with it. He just made things worse, right? Way worse.

JR: Yeah. And Okay. So I hear the Jephthah story, and this is all coming back to me. And I'm sitting there thinking, is this a metaphor for something? Did this really happen? Was it said in the context of understanding perhaps, the Agamemnon vow, I don't know, is there a broader understanding that we should know about that story? Or is it just simply a story of, Hey, here's this judge that made this foolish vow and let's learn from this. Or is it, a metaphor for something else? I guess is what I'm saying.

For me I hear that story and think what should a Christian get from that [00:23:00] story? You know, you kind of look at that and it's like why did he feel like he had to keep the vow? Why couldn't he just say give-backs, or whatever the term is. I didn't mean that, you know? I don't know, 

Why did he feel the need to follow through with it? Did he tell anybody about the vow?  

Did he make a big annoucement? Hey, everyone who's, you know, all people of I srael, whatever meets me at my gate, or is it just -

I'm sorry, go ahead. 

David: It's implied that he actually made this vow in front of his men, in front of the people he leads.

JR: Okay.

David: I'd have to go back, but we'll link to that episode. You can go back and listen to it. But, yeah, I do think there was an aspect that he wanted to save face in front of the people he was leading, right?

And you don't look like much of a leader if you say I didn't really mean that and here's some of the parallels with the Agamemnon story. I don't know, I'll speak personally, we can make foolish vows all the time to God. And we go, well God knows that I didn't mean it.

Right. You know, just wanted a good parking spot at the mall. Right? So, I think we take that kind of lightly today. And in some [00:24:00] circles, it may be more of this really weighty thing, like, wow, you don't make a vow to God like that. But even more so in the ancient times, you don't lightly make a vow to the gods that you have no intention to keep, because if you thought getting on the wrong side of Artemis was bad before, Right.

Make a vow to Artemis and then don't follow through with it. Like your whole world is crashing down. That's what you would expect. Right.

JR: Yes. I suppose that if you thought that every bad thing was from the gods to begin with, then certainly a vow not kept. You're really in some trouble now.

David: Yeah. 

JR: If the winds weren't blowing, because, I made some comment about a deer that Artemis couldn't have killed right? Or whatever the mistake was, then going back on a vow to Artemis or whoever is a really, really bad problem.

David: Right. Yeah. You're in a lot of hot water now. You just went from,

JR: Okay. So I can understand the value or the absolute necessity of following through with it.

David: Right. Yeah. And I think so. Okay. So maybe this story is in there to help people wrestle with that very idea, you know, of look, [00:25:00] does the same apply to Yahweh? If make a stupid vow to Yahweh, does Yahweh, is he kind of the petulant, moody God that's going to go, Nope, you said it. I'm going to hold you to it.

You know, or is Yahweh someone different than the gods, right? Maybe it's something like that.

JR: Isn't there something in the New Testament where basically, don't, about making oaths.

David: Yeah, don't swear by, don't swear by the altar, I think, don't swear by this, don't swear by that. Is this what we're referring to? When Jesus basically says, look, let your yes be yes and your no, no.

JR: Yeah. and again, the modern take on that is that we're sitting there saying, well, you know, okay, don't say, I swear to God, the fish was this big. Right?

David: Right.

JR: It's, it's a little bit deeper than that. and, listen to the story's point of Jeptha is don't make oaths to Yahweh in the same simple manner that you used to make oaths to the gods in general, right?

David: Yeah.

JR: You know, it carries a little bit more weight than just simply saying the words you say, [00:26:00]right? 

David: Yeah, and I think you're right that that whole idea of in the New Testament, let your yes be yes and your no mean no, is actually, when you look at it, it's actually saying, look, you don't need to make all these vows, right? That's what swearing is. It doesn't mean you cussed. It means you're,

vowing, you know, you're saying, as God is my witness, this.

And Jesus comes along and he says, no, be a person of integrity, and you don't have to say I promise to God, or God is my witness, or I swear on the Bible, right? You don't have to do any of that.

JR: Right, and again, our modern understanding of oaths is just not anywhere near what the way the ancients understood oaths. <Exactly, yeah.>

And so that's why we kind of look at that verse and say, okay, I won't say whatever I swear on the Bible or I swear on my kids, you know, I swear on my mother's life.

I'll stop saying that it's like, no, no, no, it's, the ancients understood oaths much more profoundly than us moderns. Right?

David: Yeah, exactly. And so Jephthah makes this foolish oath and it costs him his family. In fact, it was his only daughter. So I think we made the [00:27:00] point that even though Jephthah won this battle, his lineage basically dies out, right? And he becomes known as you know, as the idiot who killed his daughter for a victory on the battlefield, right? 

JR: Yeah, An important difference when we compare this story to Agamemnon is that Jephthah wasn't commanded by God to do anything. Now Agamemnon's <right.> understanding is that the gods required something, right? Jephthah was not commanded by God to make this vow. And so it was his own f oolish oath that got him in this hot water. So that the <right.> point of the Jephthah story is that it reinforces the idea that not all sacrifices, < Yeah.> there not all called from God and they're not all righteous, even if you follow through with it.

David: Right. Yeah, that's right. That's a good point. That's one of the big differences between this and the Agamemnon story. But you can see all the parallels, right? You can why the story of Jephthah immediately, if you know the Agamemnon story, makes you think of Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter for a victory in the battlefield.

JR: Right and the differences are what really, what it makes the distinction between the two stories.

David: Right, Okay, so after [00:28:00] discussing the similarities between Agamemnon and Jephthah, you immediately also go to the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, right?

Now, this is where it really gets interesting because we talked about a lot of the parallels, but what are the big differences too? We also had this conversation about, I think sometimes we don't understand the Abraham story when God calls on him to sacrifice Isaac. So let's talk about that for a couple of minutes.

JR: All right.

David: So of course, in Genesis 22, I think most people probably know the story of Abraham where he doesn't have a son for a long time. I think he has a son with his, what his wife's handmaid or concubine.

Yeah And so. Then finally, he has a son of his own with the wife, right? That he loves, and the son is Isaac, and God said, I'm going to make you a great nation.

And then God says, I want you to take your son, Isaac. I want you to take him to this hill, several days journey, and I want you [00:29:00] to sacrifice him. And so most people know the story. He says, Isaac, do you want to go on a little camping trip? Isaac says, you know, sure, dad, and

JR: Sure. 

Yeah 

David: going to offer.

JR: sounds like a blast.

David: Yeah, so sounds fun.

JR: Can I bring my new pocket knife? Sure. Grab that.

David: And so he prepares the altar, right? We're going to sacrifice something and Isaac looks around and he says, all right, I'm all about this. This has been a great time, dad. Great spending time with you, but I don't see anything to sacrifice. Right.

JR: Right.

David: And that's where Abraham says, God's basically called me to sacrifice you.

And the story goes that Isaac doesn't really put up a fight, right? But he binds Isaac up, he puts him on this altar, and right when Abraham takes Isaac's pocket knife, right? Or whatever, a knife, and lifts his arm to go plunge it into his son and kill his son and offer him as a sacrifice, an angel steps in and says, no, no, no, no, God was just testing you, right?

JR: Right. Stops him from doing it.

David: Stops him from doing it. And then there's a goat [00:30:00] in the thicket and everyone breathes a sigh of relief, they sacrifice the goat. You know, Abraham says to Isaac, hey, no hard feelings, right? I'm just doing what God told me to do. And so that's the story of Abraham and Isaac. Now, there's also a lot of parallels there between that story and the Agamemnon story, but there are also some key differences, and this is where we started talking about I'm not sure we understand the Abraham story of the sacrifice of Isaac.

JR: Right. Before we compare to Agamemnon, we have to really kind of understand , what we understand about the sacrificial story anyway. Because, you know, obviously this is a problematic story

David: Yeah

JR: taken in isolation, right? why does God need some kind of proof that Abraham would have been faithful?

Doesn't he know everything? Why would God call somebody to sacrifice their child, even if he knew he was going to stop it, right? There's all kinds of issues with this story that people have,

David: Yeah.

JR: not the first to point these things out, right? So you're right. I think we'd probably need to get our minds correct around this story to begin with, before we draw the [00:31:00] comparisons to Agamemnon.

David: Yeah, and I've heard people say, I've even heard someone recently say that I think the guy was an atheist or agnostic and he basically said, he cited the story and he said, I can't believe in a God that would ask anyone to sacrifice their child. And the other person said, well, he didn't actually sacrifice him.

And he said, still, you know, it's a very cruel thing. And look, I get it, right? That makes sense. I understand where people are coming from. This story is a big hang up for people who are struggling with faith in the God of the Bible, right?

JR: it's why understanding the ancient mindset is so important. That's what you and I do on every one of these podcasts. If you don't understand the ancient mindset, you can get caught up with revisionist history where we have this 21st century morality projected back in isolation on the on some of these stories, right?

<Right.>

JR: So the problems that emerge out of the Abraham story, you know, is a lot of it is because this story is taken in isolation. And when you have a better understanding of the popular stories that were circulating in ancient [00:32:00] time, or what was going on in the culture of the ancient time, then you can appreciate that the Abraham narrative, what, is supposed to be seen in contrast to those stories and the culture at the time, right?

David: Yeah, that's right. So I think we hear this nowadays, and we think, well, or the common explanation is, well, God was testing the faith of Abraham, right, if he was faithful to go through with it. And once he proved himself, God said, no, you don't have sacrifice. To your point, we have to go back to the ancient times.

And the idea, and this is where the story of Agamemnon helps, and Jephthah will come later, but still stories like that, because in ancient times, it was actually not all that uncommon for the gods to ask you to make that kind of sacrifice.

JR: Child's sacrifice

David: Child sacrifice, yes. Child sacrifice.

JR: Yeah. Sure. And yeah, that was just the culture that they lived in.

David: Yeah, and people disagree about how widespread it is. I was just reading something that said in ancient Carthage, there's a lot of people who say there's a lot of evidence of [00:33:00] child sacrifice. And then others would say, well, there's not a lot of it, but it did happen. Right?

JR: It wasn't unheard of.

David: Right, it wasn't unheard of.

I think one of the Old Testament kings of Israel, I think he actually sacrifices his children outside of Jerusalem, if I remember that correctly. 

JR: Really? Who's that?

A king of Israel? Because that sounds like a pagan thing. Right.

David: Right, it does sound like a pagan thing. Alright, so I looked this up, so I get this right. But yes, King Ahaz of Judah, and it's recorded in 2 Kings 16: 3, and that verse says that "Ahaz even made his son pass through the fire." And it is a phrase commonly associated with child sacrifice. Okay, particularly in worship of gods like Molech.

So there you go.

JR: Well, so yes, it was wrongfully done in service to another god.

David: Right, the point of that story is that this was a wicked, this was one of the bad kings. You know, we talked about that, the good kings and the bad kings. This is one of the bad kings, obviously. And he's basically saying that I'm offering my child to Yahweh, [00:34:00] but really it's an act to Molech, right?

JR: Yeah. Well, the point being is that child sacrifice was not unheard of, and this was going on in the culture at the time.

David: Right, so that's one of the first things we have to keep in mind because I hear people say, well, how could, how could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his child? What you need to realize is this is actually a little more common in the ancient times than we realize, right? That not that uncommon for a god to ask you to sacrifice your child. I think that's one of the big parallels here with Agamemnon, right? Because, Artemis demands his daughter's sacrifice for the offense he committed, And again, we saw King Ahaz, right? We've seen it in Jephthah.

And again, the shocking thing about Jephthah is maybe that he's supposed to be an Israelite judge and he does this. But the shocking thing isn't that he actually made a vow like this in the ancient world, right? Because it's not unheard of.

JR: Yeah, so that's why this is helpful is because when you understand that it did [00:35:00] happen, then it helps frame the Abraham story of recognizing, no, this wasn't some, necessarily test of Abraham's faith as much as it was, you know. Listen, this is the beginning of the nation of Israel, right? It starts with Abraham. And so this is more of a statement starting off in a world where gods require child sacrifice. I'm going to be a God that never wants this. This is something we don't do. And so he kind of set this up as an example of moving forward. We're not going to be like the pagans. We're not going to be like other gods.

David: Right.

JR: We're going to start a nation that is not going to be based on child sacrifice. Once you realize that it is more helpful. It's more helpful than kind of, personalizing it to the specific situation of Abraham saying, didn't God know that Abraham's faithful?

Why would he set this horrific scene up? Recognize it more as a statement of moving forward you are going to be the type of people that don't do this, right?

David: Right.

JR: off [00:36:00] the bat, I'm going to set this scenario up. So we know what not to do.

David: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So it almost in a way, if you think about it in that terms, it almost is saying the opposite of what we think it's saying, sometimes, right?

Well, this is a test of Abraham's faith. Would he be willing to offer his son if God asked him to? And when you understand the ancient backdrop and some of these other stories, I think you're right.

I think the point of the story of Abraham and Isaac is God is saying, look, we are going to be a nation that does not do that. I will not ask you to sacrifice your children. Now you can come back and say, well, isn't that what God said? But it's almost like we talked about this. 

There are scenarios where it's like to teach your kid a lesson they're not going to forget, you would maybe ask them to do something to see if they're going to go through with it. But you have no intention of letting them go through with it. I think that's what's happening here.

God is not saying, wow, were willing to sacrifice your son, good for you. God is saying, no, we will not be a nation [00:37:00] that does this. This is what other gods ask of their people, and I put you through this in order as kind of this ongoing lesson, that I will not ask you to sacrifice your kids to me.

JR: There's something bigger going on than Abraham's faith. You know, this is the establishment of a nation that, moving forward, we're not going to build on that foundation, right? 

 <Yeah.>

JR: To your point about the, the, sometimes you let your kids go through things , that we have no intention of letting them fully go through with.

It's like the kid says, I'm going to run away. You know, the < Yeah, yeah.> says, if I can't have the cookie, then I'm just going to run away. And, a good parent says, well, okay, you know, let me help you pack and, you know, kind of let's

David: That's a good example.

JR: Yeah, let's them see the result and maybe even let some walk out the door and know what I mean?

David: You're keeping an eye on them. They may get to the end of the driveway, you know.

JR: Right, but let them feel the weight of the decision that they made, I guess, and use that as a teaching lesson. And I think you're right. I think that is much more [00:38:00] about not necessarily a teaching lesson, but moving forward, this is going to be the type of nation that we're going to start and it's not going to be built on, the finicky, demands of the gods. It's just not going to be based on any of that.

And so this object lesson is portrayed and put forward so that forever and ever, we're going to look back at this story and recognize. Yeah, this is a departure of the culture of the time.

David: Yeah, this becomes an archetypal story that would define Israel's relationship with Yahweh, their God, and it would defined as we are not a nation that sacrifices our children. Yeah.

JR: That story is better seen as an example for all time, so to speak, right?

David: Yeah.

JR: But what we do is we, because we always do this, we tend to put ourselves in Abraham's shoes and say, okay, if I were Abraham, how would I respond?

What would God be trying to teach me? And, that's not the point of it.

David: Yeah. Yeah.

JR: is, is to say, moving forward, this is how the nation of Israel is going to operate.

David: I think it's a good point because, that's the other thing I hear people do is, what would I do? How would I [00:39:00] respond? Well, if you see the Abraham story as an archetypal story, you don't have to ask how you would respond, because the whole point of the story is, the God of the Bible will not ask you to do that.

And so that starts to tie in then to the story of Jephthah, right? Because Jephthah makes this vow, and again, people go back and forth. Well, he was required to keep his word, right? He did make this vow to God. That's missing the point of the whole Abraham and Isaac story. Because understand that story correctly, then you get to a story like Jephthah, and you don't have to wrestle with whether or not Jephthah did the right thing.

He absolutely did the bone headed wrong thing, right?

JR: Yeah. When you see it through the archetypal narrative, then that makes Jephthah's blunder all that more, 

<Yeah, egregious.> 

It makes it so much more obvious.

David: Right.

JR: talking about a broad idea, not an individual isolated story.

David: That's right, yeah.

JR: Okay. So, to pivot back to the comparison to Agamemnon Jephthah's, vow was not required by the gods, right? And Agamemnon's [00:40:00] was and so that's the distinction between the Jephthah story. But if you want to make the distinction. between the Abraham story, you could say well God required it of Abraham. But the distinction is is that he didn't want him to follow through like the gods required Agamemnon to do.

David: That's right. Yeah. 

JR: And there's other, well, there's other distinctions between the two, but the significance of it is that Jephthah was a cautionary tale against reckless oaths and Abraham, demonstrates a, what a new reality moving forward that this is not going to be part of the Israelite nation moving forward.

David: Yeah, yeah, and look, I don't think anyone in the ancient times who was familiar with the story of Agamemnon, I don't think anyone would have thought that it was a good option for Agamemnon to say, well, look, I'm not going to go back. Surely the gods understand. I think everyone would said, no, you just stepped in more hot water.

You've made a bad situation worse because you made this vow to the gods. So I think it's an interesting contrast [00:41:00] between what you see in the Old Testament. And by the way, Abraham's story predates Agamemnon, right? I mean, Abraham is beforehand, so when this is coming down, this is already in the mindset of this newly forming nation of Israel. And I just think it's interesting that in the Greek world, I think they would have had a different take on that.

It's an interesting question, like how would have the Greek world have understood the story of Abraham and Isaac? I don't know, I haven't thought about that.

JR: Yeah, I mean.

David: Would they have thought, man, there's a God that goes back on his word? Or would thought, man, there's a really loving, caring God?

I don't know that they would have thought that. I don't know. I've never thought about it.

JR: Well, I don't know. I think you're right, though, that the Greeks would see the Agamemnon story and say, absolutely, he had to follow through with the sacrifice.

David: Exactly. Backed himself into a corner and he really didn't have a choice. The foolish thing was irritating the gods to begin with, that was the mistake he made. The mistake he made wasn't following through. I think they would absolutely see that, yeah.

JR: Yeah. I don't know if they would look at the Abraham and [00:42:00] Isaac story and see that what Yahweh tests, but he doesn't ultimately require the sacrifice.

David: Yeah, Maybe that's it. Maybe it's like, he's testing, but ultimately, yeah, it's interesting that your God does not demand the sacrifice.

JR: Right. That previous gods required.

David: Yeah. and of course you have to jump forward then to the New Testament because here's the, I don't know, paradox is the right word. But here's the odd thing: ultimately what does God do? He sacrifices his son, right?

JR: There's obvious parallels between Abraham and Isaac, the God providing the ram and then the New Testament, God providing his son.

David: Right.

JR: the ultimate sacrifice so that we can culturally get away from this idea of sacrifices altogether.

David: Yeah. And I think another thing that's going on is when you tie those two stories together, why I think it's the right way to read this is that God is saying I will not demand sacrifice of your children because God has the foresight to know one day I will offer my own so that you don't have to [00:43:00] continually offer yours, <Right.> right?

JR: Ok, so this is good. Because in our 21st-century Evangelical Christian mindset, we are appalled at the idea of sacrifice . of certainly of children. But listen, even Christianity is built on the idea of sacrifice. There has to be the shedding of blood. Jesus arrives to be the ultimate sacrifice, right? And it's not that God suddenly says Ok, we're not going to do any more sacrifices. There does need to be sacrifice. And maybe that's the thing that us moderns That's just not in our mindset anymore, is that there has to be a sacrifice.

There's always had to be a sacrifice. God does require a sacrifice, just like comparison to the Greek gods, they required sacrifices. Well, Yahweh does too.

David: Yeah.

JR: that his system is going to be that in Abraham's case, he provides the ram as a sacrifice that starts out the sacrificial system of the Old Testament with the idea that Jesus, the son of God will be the ultimate sacrifice. And so you [00:44:00] can't understand these stories without seeing that broader, narrative throughout the entire Bible, right?

David: Yeah, that's a good point, because the ram becomes basically the stand in for having to offer your children. So then from then on , the, sacrificial system is instituted, and it really comes to an end, at least from the Christian perspective, when Jesus dies on the cross, because that's the sacrifice of all sacrifices. That ends the whole practice. And of course, in Judaism, the fall of Jerusalem ends the literal practice as well of sacrificing animals. So you really do see the whole thing tied together. And it's almost like, if you step back, you can see that, the God of Israel asked Abraham to do what he asked him to do, to prove a point.

And it does two things, right? It institutes the sacrificial system, but it also bans sacrificing human beings.

JR: Right.

David: And then if you look at the whole story then, going full forward to Jesus dying on the cross, like, there was a plan in place to bring all that to an [00:45:00] end. And when you see all of that, yeah, I think you're right.

I think we can't get hung up on the individualization of you know, well, what if God asked me to do that? what he asked of Abraham? What would I do in situation? Or, you know, even the common objection that, well, I can't believe in a God that would ask anyone to do that. Well, when you see the whole point of what God was doing, well, I think it makes a lot of sense.

JR: moving past that,

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole idea was to move past that whole idea of sacrificing humans to the gods. That's the whole point of it.

JR: No, this has been very helpful cause sometimes as we, prepare for these episodes,

you know, I write down notes, I figure out how to pronounce Google: how to pronounce Ipheginea. But then sometimes when we're in the middle of these conversations, man, my head is just swimming with things. But I think that's right. Is that we make the mistake of trying to zoom in too close, and the whole point is to zoom out. And to see the overall arc of what God's doing.

He is first establishing, we're not going to [00:46:00] be the type of nation that sacrifices our children. I will provide the sacrifice; here's a ram. And then the next step is, we're not going to be the type of nation that continues blood sacrifices, because I'm going to send you another figurative ram to be the ultimate sacrifice moving forward for all time.

David: Yeah. that's right.

JR: Man, I think that makes sense.

David: I think too, once you understand that big picture, I think then you can, because the other thing we do is we say, well, what does this mean for us today? Right. Well, I think when you understand that bigger picture, I think now you are equipped to dive into that question of what does this mean for us today?

Right. <Right.> And started to talk about this a little bit. Well, there's ways that we sacrifice our family. You know, we don't literally kill them, but

JR: Yeah, yeah, but you're right, we circle back to this idea of sacrifice and, we make those sacrifices, there's those trade offs that we make all the time.

David: Right, so I think the lesson there is, God is not asking us to figuratively sacrifice our family. Like [00:47:00] that's not what we do. Okay, so here's a way to think about it, is the other thing God is doing is He's establishing a hierarchy, right?

And so, I've said this before, you know, it's like, okay, it's God, right? It's your family, and then it's your community, kind of these, there's a hierarchy there, right? And I think one of the things we can take away is God will not ask us to sacrifice the family in order to achieve other things, or something like that.

That's not a very great way to say that, maybe.

JR: No, that God is not going to ask you to sacrifice your family even to, what, the broader idea of righteousness.

David: Yeah, yeah.

JR: You know what I'm saying? if somebody said, listen, man I just feel God calling me to really dedicate myself to serving Him. Therefore I'm going to have to leave my wife and family and I'm going to go into full time ministry, right? We would reject that outright.

David: Right.

JR: Because of everything we understand about sacrifice and what God calls us to do. He doesn't call us to sacrifice our families for the greater good, even in [00:48:00] a figurative way. Now, I suppose in small ways you could take issue with that. But certainly in the broader context of what we're speaking of, God doesn't call us to sacrifice our families even in a figurative way. 

David: Yeah, that's right. And, look, I've talked to people who say, well, God's calling me to do this, but you know, it's going to damage the relationship with my kids or something. But that's the price. In church circles, sometimes you'll see people build a great ministry and you know, but their kids hate 'em. Their wife's about to leave them and, well, that was the price of building this ministry. And it's like, no, you made the wrong sacrifice, right?

JR: That comes in direct conflict with what we also know about God and family and our responsibilities. Yeah, exactly.

David: Yeah.

So, I guess to tie all this together, one of the points that we're trying to make is, on the surface, these three stories, and particularly Agamemnon and Abraham, look very similar,

JR: Right.

David: except that the point, the moral of the story, quote, is very different. They're extreme opposites. Right? I think when [00:49:00] you understand them correctly.

JR: Yeah. It's the differences that's important, not the similarities.

David: Right. Yeah, because there are a lot of points of contact. There's a lot of points where you could say, well, that looks very similar between stories. The differences, though, in the stories are what's very important because they're making, I think, two vastly different points about the nature of the God that you're worshiping, right? 

JR: Well, the similarities are intended for us to draw these stories together and to say, Oh, I've heard a story similar to that, right?

David: Yeah.

JR: And so the similarities are meant to draw these ideas together, but it's the differences that are meant to show the distinction between Yahweh and certainly the ancient gods.

And so moving forward, it's the distinctions that matter.

David: Yeah, that's true. 

JR: So as you and I are walking where we started this, when we are walking around Mycenae and talking about these stories about Agamemnon and you're telling me about the sacrifice of his daughter, you know, we're meant to make associations with Biblical stories, right? [00:50:00] You know, we immediately went to, huh, that sounds like Abraham and Isaac, you is the distinction between the two. And I think that's what we've tried that if ancient stories seem to have parallels to Biblical stories, well, first of all, it's ancient story-telling. And so this would have been a common understanding among the culture of the time. You're supposed to say, Oh wow, that sounds like this story over here or this myth over there. 

You know, we're supposed to be drawn into it. But then the biblical story has these subtle distinctions that listeners at the time would say, Oh, wow. Okay, that's not at all like the Agamemnon story. Abraham didn't go through with it. That's not at all like the Agamemnon story, the gods didn't demand anything of Jephthah. And so it's these distinctions that we try to kind of separate and get somewhere with the overall narrative, right?

David: Yeah, that's right.

JR: I think that's what we've tried to do today.

David: Yeah. And I have read a couple of books that point out the parallels between the two stories and they [00:51:00] fall into the same trap of saying, well, one's borrowing from the other. But that's really missing the point of the narratives and why they differ, why they're the same and why they're different.

Right? And so,

JR: and again, it's, it's the whole going back the 21st century mindset being projected back into the ancient past. And it's, a super common mistake. Yeah, see, this is why we had four hour dinners, by the way.

David: That's right. That's right. Cause we would, we would talk all this through over a dinner. And they would sometimes even say to circle back to our dinners and the culture in Greece is they would sometimes say we don't have any reservations and you'd look around the restaurants empty and we'd say, well, we'll really take any table.

And they'd say, well, you'd have to be out of here in three hours. 

JR: Yeah, that's right.Yeah. That was a common thing. So, of course we'd look at each other's like, yeah, I think we can pull that off.

David: I think we got that one. And then invariably, we look at our watch and we'd say, oh, we got to clear this table out because.

JR: Yeah. We got to get out of here.

David: We promised him. Yeah, we got to get out. 

JR: It's probably what I loved about dinners in Greece. The culture is not run in, grab something, and [00:52:00] 30 minutes we're out, right? Or an hour we're out. The culture very much is set down for 3 or 4 hours.

That's why when we went in there at 6 o'clock they looked at us like we're crazy because the understanding is, well, okay, six o'clock, you might come in for coffee and you might start with some drinks. And by seven, eight o'clock, we'll have the main course and by nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, we're getting dessert and you're heading home, right?

David: Yeah.

JR: And so we would just jump right in. But yeah, that's what I loved about Greek eating culture.

David: That's right. And it does. It lends itself to these conversations that we had as we kind processed everything we saw during the day.

JR: Yeah, exactly.

David: So there you go. There's a another little taste of one of our dinner conversations.

JR: Right. okay. So next episode we are pivoting to, the skull of Titus, right?

David: The skull of Titus. Yeah. We're going to talk a little bit more about relics. And I think both you and I would say we may be a little bit in over our heads, but we're going to have this conversation anyway. But, but just.

JR: It's, yes, it's not evangelical Western Christian culture to have the relics. But we saw it so [00:53:00] much in Greece and other parts of the world that we've gone that it lends itself to another dinner conversation that we're going to have to hash out that, that what do we make of this?

What do we make of these relics and how do we deal with it? Sort of in the fact that we don't have that in our Christian culture.

David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. As we went to this church of Titus in Heraklion and there was a sign that said the skull of Titus. So we're going to talk about that next episode.

JR: All right. Sounds good.

David: So thanks for listening. If you want to continue the conversation, you can join our Facebook group. There's ways in the links below in the show notes that you can leave us a comment. We'd love to have some more comments. I know on Spotify, they just made comments available in the last six months.

So if you listen on Spotify, leave us a comment. We'd love to hear from you and we will talk to you next episode.  

JR: We'll see you.