Ancient Stories: Little Red Riding Hood

Welcome to a brand-new series on Ancient Stories from Navigating An Ancient Faith! 📜 We're kicking things off with Little Red Riding Hood—a tale far darker and more profound than its familiar bedtime-story veneer suggests. 🐺 In this episode, we explore the hidden meanings, rich symbolism, and cultural significance woven into this classic fable. 🔮 What does Red’s journey through the woods reveal about innocence, deception, and the wild forces lurking just beyond the path? 🌲 How does this story connect to ancient myths and cautionary tales across cultures? And what’s the deeper role of the Huntsman in this timeless struggle between chaos and order? ☯️ Join us as we peel back the layers of this enduring legend and uncover the life lessons hidden within. ✨

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Read 📖 the article, The Wisdom of Ancient Stories

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Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Fairy Tales and Parables
• 9:23 The Oral Tradition of Fairy Tales
• 14:55 The Original Little Red Riding Hood Story
• 24:03 Analyzing the Story's Symbolism
• 35:17 The Deeper Meaning of the Path and the Woods
• 45:48 The Coming of Age Journey
• 55:33 The Huntsman: Protector and Guide
• 1:14:12 The Hero's Journey and Maturity

Transcript

Little Red Riding Hood

J.R.: [00:00:00] Yeah, I think, okay. So golly, we're like five minutes into this story. We got the whole rest of it to go. 

David: Man, this episode's gonna be like two hours long. I know. Once upon a time, there were two brothers, that had a lot of crazy conversations and they decided to start recording them. Is that an appropriate way to start? 

J.R.: For some reason we thought we'd just put it out there for everyone to listen in on. <Yes.> Once upon a time, yeah, well said. 

David: Well, yeah, I don't know where that story's going. But it's an appropriate introduction to this next series because that's how fairy tales start, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, absolutely. 

David: Once upon a time, you go, okay, it's story time. 

J.R.: Yep. And I'm looking forward to this. We have already had many, many conversations about the fairy tales that we've read, what we're going to talk about today. And it always opens up kind of a new way to look at any story, whether it's a biblical story, whether it's the story of someone's life, any story, you can kind of [00:01:00] pick up on some of these themes once you understand what they mean. So this is going to be a lot of fun. 

David: Yeah, that's right. So we've been reading the Grimm's Brothers fairy tales.

So the next, I don't know, who knows, four, five, six episodes, we're going to be talking about the fairy tales. We're going to pick one, talk about it, what it means, and hopefully we're going to be tying together some larger principles here because the first thing I want to address to our listeners is why are these two grown adults going to talk about fairy tales? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. The hard part is going to be narrowing down the ones we talk about because there's so many good ones. 

David: And the short answer is because we're that immature and the longer answer though, is fairy tales are a form of ancient stories and fairy tales, when you really understand them, aren't that much different from say, Greek mythology, which we've talked about a lot.

<Yeah.> Other types of stories and look, even parables in the Bible. <Sure.> Right? Those are basically just stories. Yeah. I just started reading a book about some of the parables Jesus tells. They're very similar. <Yeah, but I> Once there was a man in a [00:02:00] field, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. But I like the fairy tales because they're obviously geared for kids. So, the imagery is a little bit simpler to understand. So if you take a parable and you're like, man, what is Jesus talking about here? Well, if you kind of start off, and myths are real complex. <Yes.> But if you start off with, say, I kind of look at it as regression of you start off with a fable, Aesop's fables, right?

You can kind of boil those down to one maxim, to one sentence. Your eyes should not be bigger than your stomach. You should not be greedy. You shouldn't be kind to other people, right? It's really simple. These are really simple stories. You can kind of boil it down to one little line, one sentence. Well, a fairy tale, as we're going to find out, it's a lot more complex, but there is a simplicity to it.

You know, there's talking animals and yeah, you know, and then you move on to a parable where there are no talking animals in Jesus's parable, maybe he should have picked up on that because I think it would have made it more interesting, right? But yeah, it's a lot more of just sort of a [00:03:00]fictitious story that teaches an idea or teaches a moral concept.

 So, yeah, once you have that ability to go into a fairy tale. A simple story and say, okay, this means something and you're able to pull that out. Then you can do that with other stories on a deeper level. You can kind of graduate to the next, level, I guess, so to speak. <Yeah.> And so that's kind of what we're doing.

David: Yeah. I think you hit on something that fairy tales are almost like the ancient mindset 101, right? It's a way to understand the ancient worldview at the most basic of level because these are very simple stories. But as we're going to unpack, there's a lot of complexity to them, it's like the old Disney movies. Did you ever go back and watch a Disney movie and you pick up all these things as an adult? Right that you didn't as a kid. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: That's kind of the way fairy tales operate. Yeah, right. 

J.R.: Yeah, you see the imagery. 

David: Yeah 

J.R.: Later on in life that as a kid, you were just entertained by the you know, the dancing Hippopotamuses and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it as an adult, you're like, okay you pick up on the meaning of it. 

David: Yeah, the reason we're doing this is fairy [00:04:00] tales help us recapture the ancient mindset because that's a lot of what we do on this podcast, it applies to reading the Bible; it applies to reading Greek myth.

I heard this example once I tried to find it. So I may not get this perfectly right. I just could not, it's one of those things I read. I'm like, Oh, this is great. But I go back and I can't figure out where I saw it. But anyway, I think it was something like CS Lewis or Tolkien that gave this example: if you tell a story about a child walking through the woods, And all of a sudden they come to a door, right, a door in the middle of the woods and a key hanging on it.

<Yeah.> And then a lion comes up and says, take the key and open the door. All right. Just that simple scenario right there. 

J.R.: I'm already riveted. 

David: Yeah. So the example was that a child hears that narrative right there. And the child is immediately thinking, what's behind the door. Yeah. What's going to happen when I open the door, right? <Right.> Fast forward a little bit to an adolescent, you know, a teenager. [00:05:00] A teenager will listen to that scenario and they may say, well, what's a door doing in the middle of the woods, right? <Right.> They start to think a little bit more critically. <Mm hmm.> You know, this is still a cool story. I want to know what's behind the door. But why did they encounter a door right in the middle of the woods? <Right.> Then as we listen to that same scenario as an adult, most adults would say, Wait a minute, lions don't talk. 

J.R.: I think I've heard this somewhere, and you're right, I think it's Tolkien or C. S. Lewis. 

David: It's something like that, yeah.

J.R.: Right, I think that's exactly right. But it points to the fact the older you get, there's a different understanding on what stories mean. And sometimes, it depends on your personality, it depends on if you're, what, a cynic or a skeptic, you know. When you get to a certain age, you start to see things differently.

And you're right. You kind of look at some of these stories and you roll your eyes a little bit, you know, you're like you know, what? Yeah, there's no such thing as a talking lion. There's no such thing as dragons, and I think the point of it is as a young [00:06:00] person, your eyes are open to wonder.

And so a lot of these fairytales we're gonna see a pattern of young people sort of coming into their own. <Mm-hmm.> Seeing the world a different way. The one we're talking about today we're gonna mention that. <Mm-hmm.> You see the world a different way.

And so it's sort of like this progression is as we get older, we see the world a little bit differently, and if we go back to the fairytales, maybe we can kind of recapture that childhood wonder that we used to have. And actually benefit from seeing the world that way. We can't go through life seeing the world like that forever, but we can kind of go back every once in a while and recapture the childhood wonder where there really are fairies in the woods.

There really are these things out there in the unknown world. But as we get older, we just kind of get set in our ways and we're skeptical of anybody who says, that's right. I can fix your arthritis. I can. Yeah. Yeah. We're just skeptics about everything. And so we changed the way we view the world.

David: Well, and it actually ties into what we just talked [00:07:00] about last episode is we talked about the skull of Titus and we were talking a little bit because we're at our mother's house this weekend. We were talking a little bit about that loss of wonder actually makes you see something like a relic, the skull of Titus and go, right, come on, that's not real. <Right.> And move on. And you miss the whole meaning and story attached to that object, right? By immediately just skepticism. Come on, lions don't talk. This is a dumb story. I've got better things to do with my day, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. And you lose the wonder in life. And then we wonder why we just become grumpy old men.

David: Yeah, that's true. 

J.R.: Sit in the back of church complaining about the music's too loud. You know what I mean? It's like we just become brittle and angry about everything. 

David: Yeah, yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: So hopefully we can recapture a little bit of wonder. 

David: Yeah, and we're going to be talking each episode a little bit more, a little bit deeper about really how this can transform the way you think. Yeah, so we'll unpack that as we go along too, because if we did that all up front, we'd probably spend the first episode just talking about [00:08:00]why symbolism matters, what's the symbolism in stories, what does it mean? But we'll kind of unpack that as we go along. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yes. At some point we just have to jump in it. 

David: Yeah. So let's talk about. We read, , in fact, just yesterday, I finished the complete book of Grimm's Fairy Tales. I think there's two hundred and 13 or 215 of them. So this has been a several month endeavor here.

J.R.: Yeah, no, I was proud of you for doing it. I mean, you would say read number 185 and I'm like, man, I'm on like 40 and they're not very long. But because there's so much depth and you want to unpack it, it really doesn't do any good because some of these are only one page, right?

They're really short stories, but it doesn't do any good say, well, I'm gonna read about eight of these stories. I've got a half hour I'm gonna sit down and read several of them . Because then you don't have a chance to kind of sit back and reflect. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: So what you were doing is you were reading one every morning. And then you'd go on your jog and you would kind of think about. 

David: A particularly good story would stick with you throughout the day and you'd start to unpack it. And we've both [00:09:00] experienced this, where if you read an interesting fairy tale, you can only read it once and you can recount the whole thing because all the little details. So I actually enjoyed starting my morning with just a story. Sometimes it, stuck with me the rest of the day. Sometimes, you know, it didn't really do anything for me, but I thought it was actually fun.

I enjoyed starting my morning a fairy tale and see how it applied to the rest of the day. 

J.R.: Well, you said earlier that going through the fairy tales helps you understand the ancient mindset of imagery, but the other thing it helps you understand is the idea of narrative, the idea of the oral tradition, you know, the idea that you didn't write these things down.

 People would travel from village to village and they would tell these stories. So they had to be done in a memorable way and they had to have meaning. And when you capture those two things in a good story, it really does make it easy to recall. 

I think we talked about this last episode about the fairy tale that I read and I was able to go, the next day or two, I was telling my wife and daughter about it. And I remembered all the details because they had meaning to them. [00:10:00] And so I didn't want to forget any of those details or I didn't want to skip over them. And so as I'm telling it, I'm thinking of the deeper meaning while they're just hearing this sort of absurd story of talking lions and so on and so forth.

And so yeah, it, the oral tradition is another aspect of fairy tales that is good to understand that that's the way these things were passed along. And once you go through a couple of them and you read them and you put yourself in somebody in a town square, kind of telling the story, it kind of brings it to life in a new way also that this is the way they had to pass these stories along.

David: Yeah. So the Grimm's brothers fairy tales in particular, the history is a little bit interesting is that the Grimm's brothers didn't sit down and just write all these, right? What they did was they collected old folk tales that were circulating, I think they were from Germany, so the Bavaria region, all around Central Europe in there. And actually, let me get this right, yeah, around 1812, 1812, is [00:11:00] when they compile these stories.

They collected them from a couple of their friends, other people, they went out and collected stories, and then they put this all together as a book of fairy tales. So these are actually accounts of oral traditions that may go back hundreds of years before the 1800s even. 

J.R.: Sure. Yeah, you know, and so these are the stories that have survived because there's a deeper resonating meaning that lasts.

David: Yeah, there's a reason why these survived, right? Why these were retold and retold. I could tell you a stupid story and you're not going to remember it tomorrow, right? If it doesn't make any sense, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, you can get a hook. I mean, we've all read books or something where there's a good hook at the beginning and then you're four or five chapters in, you're like, eh, it just died.

They had a good hook, it had me interested, but then they just got long winded and so yeah, died on the vine. But yeah, these stories have stood the test of time for a good reason. It's because they resonate on multiple different levels. A child can listen to it and laugh about the story. An adult can listen to it and say, [00:12:00] Oh, I see what this It means on a deeper level and so it's kind of like a good Pixar film, right?

Yeah One thing I loved about Toy Story and Shrek and some of these, I call them more modern, meaning that they're not the animated Disney movies, right? One thing I love about the new computer animated Shrek and those is that you go as an adult, you take your kid to see these movies and there's all these subtle, sometimes inappropriate, right?

Inappropriate jabs that they throw out there. And a kid never picks up on it. And I'm always chuckling under my breath thinking they stuck that in there. Kids have no idea what that meant, but dad knows, mom knows right? <Yeah.> So a good fairy tale captures that.

David: Well played Pixar. Well played.

J.R.: That's right. 

David: it's the same thing applies to some of these fairy tales. Cause the last thing I'll say, and then we'll dive into the one we're going to do today is what's interesting is when they compiled this list and it was something like the Grimm's brothers account of children's fairy tales or something.

One of the immediate pushbacks when they released this book was that people said, these aren't appropriate for [00:13:00] children. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. And they're not. 

David: Right? And so what we're going to do too, in the Grimm's brothers account is we're going to read the original fairy tales. <Right.> And a lot of them, yeah, are pretty violent. They're pretty graphic. <Sure.> some of them you'd sit there and think, oh, I wouldn't read this to my kid before they went to bed. They'd have nightmares tonight. 

J.R.: Yeah. I don't want them crawling in my bed at two in the morning, you know. 

David: That's right. So there is this kind of element that on one level, you could tell them to kids, but on another level, it's like, man, there's a lot more going on in this that sometimes it can be inappropriate for children. And so, just beware, some of the stories we're going to share during the series, they're not the sanitized Disney versions that you heard maybe growing up as a child. So, even today, we're going to talk about Little Red Riding Hood. And you're going to hear probably some parts of this story that you're thinking, well, I never heard that part, right?

But that's what makes these great. 

J.R.: But the unsanitized versions, the original versions, once you understand their [00:14:00]meaning, sometimes that when you make these stories appropriate for children, they lose their meaning. So they're better, to see on TV in a little cartoon, the girl in the little red riding hood and she escapes the wolf and, you know, it makes it happily ever.

Yeah. Happily ever after. And it's a better story for children, but at the same time it loses its meaning. And when you go back to the original and you really understand what the story means. Then you're like, oh, I see why you know, these awful things had to happen. <Yeah.> Because that makes sense in the larger narrative of what the deeper meaning of what the story is.

David: Yeah. So. So here's what we're going to do. We are going to pause. You're going to hear the story. And most of these are five to 10 minutes long. So, as the listener, I would say really just hear this story as if for the first time. You know, don't just skip past it and say, Well, I know the story of Little Red Riding Hood.

then we're gonna come back and we're gonna start pulling it apart. Alright. Alright. Let's do it. That's what we're gonna do. Take a listen. 

Little Red Riding Hood. Once upon a time, there was [00:15:00] a sweet little girl. Everyone who saw her liked her. But most of all, her grandmother, who did not know what to give the child next.

Once, she gave her a little cap made of red velvet. Because it suited her so well, and she wanted to wear it all the time. She came to be known as Little Red Riding Hood. One day her mother said to her, Come Little Red Riding Hood. Here is a piece of cake and a bottle of wine. Take them to your grandmother.

She is sick and weak and they will do her well. Mind your manners and give her my greetings. Behave yourself on the way and do not leave the path or you might fall down and break the glass and then there will be nothing for your sick grandmother. Little Red Riding Hood promised to obey her mother. The grandmother lived out in the woods, a half hour from the village.

When Little Red Riding Hood entered the woods, a wolf came up to her. She did not know what a wicked animal he was, [00:16:00] and was not afraid of him. Good day to you, Little Red Riding Hood. Thank you, wolf. Where are you going so early, Little Red Riding Hood? To grandmother's. And what are you carrying under your apron?

Grandmother is sick and weak, and I am taking her some cake and wine. We baked yesterday, and they should give her strength. Little Red Riding Hood, just where does your grandmother live? Her house is a good quarter hour from here in the woods, under the three large oak trees. There's a hedge of hazel bushes there.

You must know the place, said Little Red Riding Hood. The wolf thought to himself, Now there is a tasty bite for me. Just how are you going to catch her? Then he said, Listen, Little Red Riding Hood. Haven't you seen the beautiful flowers that are blossoming in the woods? Why don't you go and take a look?

And I [00:17:00] don't believe you can hear how beautifully the birds are singing. You are walking along as though you were on your way to school in the village. It is very beautiful in the woods. Little Red Riding Hood opened her eyes and saw the sunlight breaking through the trees and how the ground was covered with beautiful flowers.

She thought, if I take a bouquet to Grandmother, she will be very pleased. Anyway, it is still early and I'll be home on time. And she ran off into the woods. Little Red Riding Hood was looking for flowers. Each time she picked one, she thought that she could see an even more beautiful one a little way off.

And she ran after it, going further and further into the woods. But the wolf ran straight to the grandmother's house and knocked on the door. Who's there? Little Red Riding Hood. I'm bringing you some cake and wine. Open the door for me. Just [00:18:00] press the latch, called out Grandmother. I'm too weak to get up.

The wolf pressed the latch and the door opened. He stepped inside, went straight to the Grandmother's bed and ate her up. Then he took her clothes, put them on, and put her cap on his head. He got into her bed and pulled the curtain shut. Little Red Riding Hood had run after the flowers and did not continue on her way to Grandmother's until she had gathered all that she could carry.

When she arrived, she found to her surprise that the door was open. She walked into the parlor and everything looked so strange that she thought, Oh my God, why am I so afraid? I usually like it at Grandmother's. Then she went to To the bed and pulled back the curtains. Grandmother was lying there with her cat pulled down over her face and looking very strange.

[00:19:00] Oh, grandmother, what big ears you have? All the better to hear you with. Oh, grandmother, what big eyes you have, all the better to see you with. Oh, Grandmother, what big hands you have! All the better to grab you with! Oh, Grandmother, what a horribly big mouth you have! All the better to eat you with! And with that, he jumped out of the bed, jumped on top of poor little Red Riding Hood, and ate her up.

As soon as the wolf had finished this tasty bite, he climbed back into bed, fell asleep and began to snore very loudly. A huntsman was just passing by. He thought it strange that the old woman was snoring so loudly, so he decided to take a look. He stepped inside and in the [00:20:00] bed there laid the wolf that he had been hunting for such a long time.

He has eaten the grandmother, but perhaps she still can be saved. I won't shoot him. Thought the Huntsman, so he took a pair of scissors and cut open his belly. He had cut only a few strokes when he saw the red cap shining through. He cut a little more, and the girl jumped out and cried, Oh, I was so frightened.

It was so dark inside the wolf's body. And then the grandmother came out alive as well. Then Little Red Riding Hood fetched some large, heavy stones. They filled the wolf's body with them. And when he woke up and tried to run away, the stones were so heavy that he fell down dead. The three of them were so happy, the huntsman took the wolf's pelt.

The grandmother ate the cake and drank the wine that Little Red Riding Hood had brought. And Little Red Riding Hood [00:21:00] thought to herself, As long as I live, I will never leave the path and run off into the woods by myself if Mother tells me not to. They also tell how Little Red Riding Hood was taking some baked things to her grandmother another time when another wolf spoke to her and wanted her to leave the path.

But Little Red Riding Hood took care and went straight to Grandmother's. She told her that she had seen the wolf and that he had wished her a good day, but had stared at her in a wicked manner. If we hadn't been on a public road, he would have eaten me up, she said. Come, said the Grandmother, let's lock the door so he can't get in.

Soon afterward, the wolf knocked on the door and called out, Open up, Grandmother, it's Little Red Riding Hood, and I'm bringing you some baked things. They remained silent and did not open the door. The Wicked One walked around the house several times and finally jumped onto the roof. [00:22:00] He wanted to wait until Little Red Riding Hood went home that evening, then follow her and eat her up in the darkness.

But the grandmother saw what he was up to. There was a large stone trough in the front of the house. Fetch a bucket, Little Red Riding Hood, she said. Yesterday I cooked some sausage. Carry the water that I boiled them with to the trough. Little Red Riding Hood carried water until the large, large trough was clear full.

The smell of sausage arose into the wolf's nose. He sniffed and looked down, stretching his neck so long that he could no longer hold himself, and he began to slide. He slid off the roof, fell into the trough, and drowned. And Little Red Riding Hood returned home happily and safely. 

J.R.: Okay. So there you go. Happily ever after. 

David: Happily ever after. Yeah. Is that the story you remember? 

J.R.: That's what I was about to ask. So right off the bat, what are the things about that story that caught you off guard? That you're like, [00:23:00] wait, I forgot that. 

David: Caught me off guard. Well, I certainly don't remember the huntsman taking a pair of scissors and cutting the wolf's belly open. 

J.R.: Yeah, that caught me off guard a little bit. I forgot about that. It seems like somewhere along the way, I don't know that I remember that story where the grandmother and Red Riding Hood actually got eaten by the wolf. 

David: Both got eaten, yeah. 

J.R.: But it seems like I've heard in the past several years, you know that the original story of Red Riding Hood, she gets eaten. I've heard that from somebody in a podcast or something along the way. So that was no big surprise. I kind of knew that that was going to happen. But yeah, the scissors cutting the belly open, that was a little bit strange. And that whole second act. I had no idea about that when it started up again, I was like, Oh, that should be the end, but there's this whole second act that I never realized was part of the original story.

David: There were more wolves. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. 

David: And then the whole bizarre sausage water. That was kind of, right. That was kind of funny, but yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. So right off the bat, those are the things that kind of [00:24:00] maybe shock you because you don't remember that about the original story. <Yeah.> But what are some of the elements or what are some of the details that pop out that, let's say, don't make narrative sense?

<Well.> Kind of the oddball stuff that ...

David: Yeah, we can list maybe three or four of the weird things. The one that's obvious right off the bat to me is Why a red riding hood, like why the red hood? We actually heard another version where I think in the original German, it just read something like little red cap.

Cause it was just a cap or a hat, right? <Yeah.> And I'm used to the cartoon where she pulls a hood over her head and it's a whole almost cape, whatever that, you know? But yeah, it's like, why the red? Cause I think you said earlier, it could have just been called the girl in the woods. 

J.R.: Sure. Right.

And lots of fairy tales, that's basically what they're called. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: The brother and the sister. <Yeah.> The boy in the woods, you know? It's just, so why this, what's the significance of this red flourish right at the beginning? Because, we all take for granted that we [00:25:00] obviously remember the Little Red Riding Hood story, and so it's burned into our memory of the story. But when you listen to the whole story, it really doesn't have anything to do with anything. 

David: That's true. 

J.R.: She could have been wearing, whatever, a pair of white gloves. But yeah, so maybe that's a good place to start. 

David: So why the red cape? 

J.R.: Why the red cap? What is the significance there?

David: Okay, so I was thinking about this, and

I think the, okay, so I'm going to throw this out there. And I think this will make more sense as we talk through the entire story, but we're starting with the red cape, right? <Right.> Or the red hat. <Right.> I think the red cape has the same symbolic function, and we're gonna tie this to a Bible story, Okay? Of Joseph's coat of many colors.

So if you think about why did Joseph wear this coat of many colors, right? And it says because he was his father's favorite. <Yeah.> And so, in the story you heard, just now, it said everyone loved her, right? And her mother loved her. 

J.R.: Yeah. And because her mother loved her so much, she [00:26:00] sewed or knitted this red cap.

David: They couldn't think of anything better to give her, right? So the red cape, or the red hat, immediately almost tells you that this is kind of a favored child, maybe a sheltered child as well. Because if you think of the coat of many colors that Joseph wears, what happens to him? Well, he's dad's favorite, right?

But it immediately also makes him a target. <Yeah.> Now, it functions that way because it stands out, right? So everyone's just wearing these. I think of like Joseph's brothers all wearing just these kind of natural linen drab garments. Right. And then Joseph skips in and he's got this bright rainbow coat and, you know, you just want to punch him, right?

J.R.: Right. Yeah. 

David: Right off the bat. <Sure.> And that's what happens. You know, the story of Joseph and his brothers. But I think the red cape almost functions in that way. It almost makes Little Red Riding Hood a target for what's out there waiting in the world. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, [00:27:00] I think you're onto something there because there's something symbolic about the red cape that says the favored individual becomes a target to others.

<Yeah.> Does that, you know, I mean, and I'm trying to think of a good example. What would be a good example? 

David: Well, so, in high school, think about the kid who got a brand new pair of tennis shoes and he's got his Members Only jacket. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah.

David: I'm dating myself, right?

J.R.: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 

David: You know and it's brand new and he walks into school. Okay, so people are either envious of that kid or they immediately start making fun of him, right? But regardless whatever he wore that made him stand out, makes him a target, or her a target. <Yeah.> Right? 

J.R.: Yeah, the very thing that makes them stand out also makes them a target.

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: Maybe that's a good way to look at it. Yeah, I think that was well said. That was the way to say it. The very thing that makes you stand out also makes you a target. 

David: Yeah, so there's a subtle lesson in there. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And the other thing that's interesting about the red coat is that later [00:28:00] on, of course, we know Red Riding Hood goes through the woods to grandma's house, right?

If you're thinking about how do you blend into the woods, so you don't stand out, it's not a bright red cape. 

J.R.: Right. How do you avoid the wolves? Yeah. So don't go rolling through with the bright red. 

David: It's like, Hey, I'm going to go into the bull ring. You know, I'm going to go through the cow pasture that has bulls in it. What are you going to wear? I think I'm gonna wear my bright red coat. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. Let's rethink that. 

David: Yeah. So that just puts an immediate target. So that's my idea behind the whole idea of the red cape. 

J.R.: Yeah, I think that's right because as we're going to see, as we go along, this is more than a story about staying on the path and doing the right thing and obeying your mom and dad, right? And the deeper point of this story is that it's about sort of a sheltered girl that's favored by her mother that is sort of lavished all these little gifts on.

Everybody loves her, right? <Yeah.> And so we're going to put the red cape on her, but then we're going to send her out in the world. And her only defense is obey what mom says. Stay on [00:29:00]the path, right? And so it's almost like the mother thinks that she's equipping Red Riding Hood for the world by giving her this cape that signals to the world that, hey, you're a special kid. But as we just discussed, it also makes you a target and whatever you do, do what mom says, stay on the path, right? <Yeah.> And as we get into it a little bit more, we're going to discover that this is sort of a tale about we think we're equipping our kids to do well in the world. But sometimes the very thing that we think we're equipping our kids to do well in the world actually is counterproductive to being functional in the world, right?

So if you think about an extremely wealthy family that sort of gives their kid the brand new car at 16, all the right clothes, they think they're helping their kid. They think they're giving them a leg up. And a lot of times what you see is the kid doesn't take responsibility. The kid sort of takes for granted that the job or the, money should just fall in his lap and he doesn't really work hard for [00:30:00] it. And a lot of times they end up crippling the kid, right? Just by constantly giving him. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: You know, so we've seen that story and I think that red riding hood is a little bit of a tale about that. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. We'll unpack that as we go along, but I think that's right.

J.R.: Okay. All right. Let's keep going. 

David: All right. So what's one that stood out for you? A big symbolic element that knocked you over the heads? 

J.R.: Oh, well, 

David: There's a lot of them, by the way, we're just hitting on. 

J.R.: The big one was, well, the cutting the belly open, but putting the stone in the wolf's stomach, because it's one of those things you read and you're like, oh.

This is a good time to talk about this. So one of the things you'll notice about fairytales is that when you have these completely absurd out of left field occurrences, like putting the stone into the wolf's stomach and sewing it back up. <Yeah.> You're like, what in the world well, you know, where's that coming from? Right? <Yeah.> And again, we're not reading this on a surface level. We know that there's some kind of meaning to it, but sometimes these absurd elements are an [00:31:00] invitation to dig deeper, or an invitation to, hey, this isn't said for no reason.

This isn't said for, you know, and we were talking about earlier that a lot of times in the Bible, that's the case, that when you come across these verses in the Bible, it's like, what in the world, you know, why would they give us that information to go back to judges? You know, what is the significance of the 30 white donkeys?

Why would it tell you that? And that's an invitation to dig. That's an invitation to find meaning. And so what we're going to find out a lot of these fairy tales is these things that shock us, or these things that we read and say, that's gotta mean something, but I have no idea what it means. <Yeah.> Those are kind of the areas that you're, that's the big red X on the map, on the treasure map, dig here. 

David: Yeah, one of the things I've learned is that when I come to a verse in the Bible that I don't understand, a part of the Old Testament or maybe even a New Testament verse, you're like, that's weird. That doesn't make sense. <Yeah.> Previously I had a tendency just to skip over and go well that doesn't that's just part of the old story and I don't understand. 

And [00:32:00] you're right. That's the invitation to dig. There's something there because there's a reason why it's even preserved right in the first place, right? And so the same thing with fairy tales and the rocks, but we'll come back to that, right? <Okay. Okay.> All right. Another element is obviously the big bad wolf. <Sure.> And that one didn't need a lot of explanation, but like the big bad wolf, I think even people today growing up knows the symbolism of the wolf.

J.R.: Sure. It's shorthand for just evil people in the world. 

David: Yeah. Danger. It could be the monster. <Yeah.> Right? It could be people, right? But beware of the big bad wolf. Yeah. That's an easy lesson. 

J.R.: Yeah. But one of the things you should pick up on the story is that she was unable to see the wolf for what he was. <Yeah.> And it even says that, which, what's, what's the exact line? 

David: No, that's interesting. So I have the text in front of me. It says, "when little red riding hood entered the woods, a wolf came up to her." But then it says, "she did not know what a wicked animal he was and was not afraid of him." Right? 

J.R.: Yeah. And [00:33:00] again, that's one of those lines. It's there for a reason. You shouldn't just gloss over that. And so it's pointing out the idea that she was a naive person. <Yeah.> That what kid, I mean, look, you could take a two year old and if you put a, you put a wolf in a cage in front of them, they're probably going to cry because the implicit understanding about a wolf or a lion or something like that is fear.

<Yeah.> They've got the big teeth. This is not something to be messed with, but somehow she couldn't even see that, which is a testament to how naive she was in going through the world. <Yeah.> She doesn't even understand the malevolent forces that are right in front of her face. 

David: It's a subtle clue of her sheltered life. <Right.> You might say her favored, sheltered life. And look, when we say all that, we're not it's not a commentary on what kind of person she is. It's just kind of part of the story, right? <Right. One other one I'll throw out there that I thought was interesting that you see in a lot of fairy tales, and then we're going to go back to the beginning of this story and kind of walk through it.

<Okay.> Okay, so is the idea of the forest. 

J.R.: Mm. Yeah. 

David: [00:34:00] So what's interesting is so many of these fairy tales the main characters have to walk through a forest, right? And it's so interesting because the forest if you think about where these come from culturally Bavaria right, the great forest of Germany, the forest functions the same way in the Bible as the wilderness. <Yeah.> And that was fascinating to me. Once you see that you see it in every fairy tale. 

J.R.: It's the boundary between modern society, the village, right? And then you've got the chaos, the unknown. 

David: The unknown. 

J.R.: The same thing as the wilderness. 

David: And the unknown is where monsters live, dragons live. It's danger, but it's also opportunity and transformation too.

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Wander in the wilderness at your own peril. But also that's how you discover new lands. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So whatever, you know, if you wanna get to the castle on the other side of the land, <mm-hmm> you'll have to go through the forest. <Right.> Man, that's a metaphor. <Right, sure.> It's the same thing as having to travel through the [00:35:00] wilderness to get to the promised land, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not that you should avoid the forest at all costs. But you should be prepared. Don't naively go into the forest. Don't naively walk into the wilderness. 

David: That's right, yeah. <Okay.> Okay, so, we've already started pulling this story apart, but let's start back at the beginning, I guess. And walk through and maybe try and unfold why we see this story the way we're talking about it, because I should say this up front is if you listen to a lot of books, there's an obvious moral to the story at the very simplistic level, which is basically something like, what? Like children maybe in this case little girls in particular like obey your mother, because there are dangers out in the world. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, that's the simple. 

David: It's kind of the stranger danger thing.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, don't talk to strangers. She clearly didn't obey her mother and left the path. <Yeah.> She was easily coaxed off the path.

<Yeah.> Yeah. So there is kind of that simple layer that you could look at it just the first time you [00:36:00] listen to this. Okay. That's what this means. <Yeah.> It means I should have listened to mom, but then that second act sort of tells you there's something a little bit deeper going on. <Yeah.> Right?

<Yeah.> Okay. So that's the simple way to look at it. <Yeah.> But we want to go back to the beginning and how do we start that we can get arrive at this deeper meaning because there is something deeper going on here.

David: Yeah. And to do that, I think I'll just say like, I think it starts paying attention to all these little details and asking, what does this mean, right? And so, we're not going to go through the whole story again, but a good place to start, we've really talked about the Red Riding Hood. We've established that her mother loved her. Everyone loved her, it said. So again, this is not a bad kid, right?

J.R.: Right, right. Kind of a golden child. 

David: Yeah, a golden child. But she says, come Little Red Riding Hood. Here's a piece of cake and a bottle of wine. Take them to your grandmother, okay? <Mm hmm.> So grandma's gonna get lit tonight.

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to say. She's a little down in the dumps. [00:37:00] She's gonna throw a few back.

David: And her specific instruction is, grandma's house is about half hour away, do not leave the path. And now that's emphasized in there, right? So there's a safe path to grandma's as long as you stay on the path. <Mm hmm.> Okay, so then Little Red Riding Hood promised to obey her mother. And this is another, here's where we come to the forest.

The grandmother lived out in the woods a half hour from the village. So right now, that tells you to get to grandma's house, like we just said, you're going to have to go through the woods, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. And the assumption is this is her first journey into the woods. 

David: Yeah. We assume that she's not made this journey by herself, right, previously. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Okay. So then she encounters the wolf and we already talked about how she doesn't see anything to fear in the wolf, which again is telling you again, she's sheltered. She's favored. She's almost naive being sent out into the world, right? [00:38:00] So, the wolf asks her, where are you going? And she says, to grandma's house, because my grandma's sick.

She fills in all the details for the wolf. And the wolf, you can almost think of the wolf as thinking here's an easy bright red snack. Or, there's a bigger full meal back at grandma's house, right? That's kind of what's implied in that, I think. 

J.R.: Yeah, it's kind of like the kid who can't shut up and tells you every detail of, you know, yeah, my dad just got a big bonus and he keeps it under his mattress.

And you don't have to tell everybody everything and that's what she's doing. She's blabbing about, I've got a sick grandmother. And so yeah, the implication is the wolf normally would have just pounced on her and gobbled her up, but because she 

David: She describes in great detail right where her grandmother's house is.

J.R.: Right. Yeah. It tells him everything. He's thinking, well, I see a bigger payoff here if I just play my cards, right? So then he coaxes her off the path. 

David: Yeah. And so it's kind of interesting how he coaxes her off the path, right? How does he do that? 

J.R.: Well, I think what's [00:39:00] interesting is that, again, if you go back to that simplistic understanding is stay on the path, do the right thing, obey mom and dad.

Well, then you read this story and really what is off the path it's not really that bad. It's not like stay on the path because you're going to fall into the ravine, or you're going to, you're going to drown in the river. It's, there's actually cool things out there.

David: Wildflowers. 

J.R.: Yeah. And the wolf points that out to Red Riding Hood. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: And it says, I think the line says something like she opened her eyes. For the first time maybe. 

David: Yeah, now that's interesting because the wolf basically says look at all the beautiful flowers out there. Why don't you go enjoy what's out in the woods right get her off the path, right?

And there's a line in here that jumped out of me. Said "Little Red Riding Hood opened her eyes and saw the sunlight breaking through the trees and how the ground was covered with beautiful flowers." Now, that's so interesting. Yeah, she opened her eyes. <Mm hmm.> Her eyes weren't closed. Her mom didn't say close your eyes, put these blinders on, and walk through life. But [00:40:00] there's something about what the wolf told her that suddenly it's like she actually saw sure, the natural beauty and wonder of the forest. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. So there's this aspect of it. If you think of the path as, I don't know you know, be a good person or don't sin or, you know, however you view the path.

What you discover in the woods is there's this natural beauty. There's all these neat, neat things around you. And all it took was for somebody to point it out to her. And so now you kind of get this image, okay, there's something more going on with the path and the woods than just simply there's this inescapable danger in the woods or something like that.

There's this dual nature of, yeah, the woods can be dangerous, but they're also beautiful. And go out and take a look, smell the flowers. And it says she gathered up flowers until she could hold no more. And so she's having a great time in the woods. So there's something implicit about the woods. I think what it's trying to say [00:41:00] is don't think of the woods as something that will just gobble you up as soon as you leave the path.

It's almost like, yeah, there's good things out in the wood. There's neat things out in the woods. And he was pointing that out.

David: Yeah. So I go back to this idea of the woods is the same thing as the wilderness, right? And actually the other thing about the wilderness, especially in the Bible is it is a place of wonder and beauty. And you can think some of the trips we've been on, you know, whether it's hiking through North Carolina or man, some of the most beautiful places you will see is out in the desert somewhere. 

J.R.: Yeah. Wandering around Qumran. Climbing through those caves by the Dead Sea and you know, just one look at it, you can see that there's danger in there.

If you were stuck, you know, we're close to our car, we're close to the road, right? Close to our hotel. But you can also see that, man, you get wandering too far, you could get lost and it's not a safe place to be. 

David: Right. But there is beauty and wonder there. 

J.R.: Yeah. So that's what draws you out to it.

David: Yeah. So I think that's what the wolf is pointing out to her is that, Hey, there is beauty and wonder out in the [00:42:00] woods. And it's almost like the, I mean, almost go back to the garden of Eden. It's like the serpent tells Eve, it's like, man, eat of this. It's wonderful. It's great. You know?

Yeah. It's like, yeah, why can't I eat of that? Right. It's something like that too, you know. 

J.R.: No, it's the dual nature of the wilderness that it's dangerous, but it's also an opportunity and there is something about it that pulls you, that draws you out. And so the mom's way to protect Little Red Riding Hood is in a simplistic way, all she does is tell her don't go off the path. Don't go in the woods. She never tells her why. And she doesn't give Red Riding Hood the understanding of the dual nature of the woods that there's opportunity there. But she naively sort of says just listen to mommy and stay on the path and you'll be just fine. 

David: And that's appropriate at a certain age, right?

<Right.> I think we've talked about the example before but if you have a really young toddler who grabs everything, right? You might tell that toddler. Don't ever pet a dog, right? [00:43:00] Well, that's keeping the toddler safe for that period of time until the toddler understands a proper way to interact with a dog, right? But the mom is not saying, don't ever touch a dog, right? Even when you're adult. 

J.R.: Some moms say that. Yes. 

David: But some would Right. So I think it's interesting because you're pointing out something that we're gonna see develop in this story, <Yeah.> that's not altogether wrong. It's maybe just beyond, let's put it this way, if Little Red Riding Hood is old enough to walk to her grandma's house through the woods for half an hour by herself, which would land the mom in jail today, then maybe, maybe she is beyond, hey, don't stray from the path and don't ever look to see what's actually in the forest. Right? <Yep. Yep.> Yeah. Something like that. 

J.R.: No, that's a good point. And because you understand now this story is about sort of preparing what she thinks she's preparing her kid for the world. And so she's old enough to clearly go off in the woods by herself, but her mom never really prepared her.[00:44:00]

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: And to go back to your dog thing, it's funny because every once in a while you'll see a kid that's just, you know, he's 10 years old and he hides behind Well, yeah, but I mean, yeah, you see an older kid. a little dog runs up to them and they hide behind, their mom or dad and, oh, you know, and there's just a little bit of an eye roll in me that it's just going Oh, gosh, are you kidding me? 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: You know, just, it's a kid that has never been prepared on how to look at a dog and see that, oh, this is just a, harmless little dog that wants to lick my feet. Yeah versus there's something not quite right with this dog. It's a stray, you know may have something wrong, you know, they don't have any of that capability. <Yeah.> And so all they can do is categorize all dogs as scary and frightening and they could bite me. 

David: Yeah, and they live in fear. 

J.R.: Right, and they're not prepared for the world. That's obviously a small aspect Yeah, but you can draw that out to all kinds of different things. And that's what's going on with this story. <Yeah.> Is that the protective mother, didn't prepare the child for the journey. Okay, so there's [00:45:00] a saying, don't prepare the road for your child. Prepare your child for the road. 

David: Oh, okay. 

J.R.: And there are those parents that want to constantly be out in front of their child sweeping all the rocks off the road, making sure the road is just right for them to easily walk and crawl down, you know, and that's not helping the kid. What you got to do is prepare the kid for, look, there's going to be wolves out there. There's going to be rocks in your paths. You're going to have ditches in life. 

David: Well, that's exactly the symbolism of the path. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: In this story. It, it's like, the mom could have said, stick to the path around our yard because I've cleansed it and sanitized it for you. But she sends her to grandma's and you're right, like prepare the child for the path. 

J.R.: And that's what the mom didn't do. 

David: That's right. 

J.R.: In this. She sent her off on the path. She sent her out into the world unprepared. And so there's a coming of age aspect of this. 

David: Sure. Yeah. And that becomes evident as the story goes on, I think. 

J.R.: Right. So when you have a little kid, you know, three, four year old, everything that mom says, everything that [00:46:00] dad says is golden.

They're the ones that know how to navigate life. If I don't listen to mom and dad, heck, I'll probably die, right? They're the ones who feed me. They're the ones who put clothes on my back. They take me to school. And so there's something about three, four, five year old that everything mom and dad says is right. 

But we all hit that kind of middle school age where you realize that it's usually like in social situations, mom and dad don't know what's cool. They don't know the music to listen to. They don't know the cool things on TV. They don't understand Instagram. They don't understand social media, right? And so you hit this age where everything mom and dad is a little bit of an eye roll.

And you're like, oh, you know, mom, you're so lame. You don't understand any of this stuff. You don't understand my world, right? 

David: Your parents go from all knowing to know nothing, basically. 

J.R.: Right, right. And it's this extreme pendulum. So I think what this story is doing, one of the things it's capturing is that idea that she went out in the world thinking mommy knew everything.

And she's going to find out that, [00:47:00] listen, that's not difficult for a malevolent person to circumvent what mommy and daddy says. Yeah. I get them away from mom and dad and yeah, this is a piece of cake. <Yeah.> Yeah. It goes back to that idea of the target. 

So there's this big red cap on this girl that says there's a target. There's somebody who's naive. There's somebody who's been separated from the broader society that doesn't know how the world works. So everything about Red Riding Hood screams target, easy pickings. <Yeah.> That's what the wolf zones in on. Yeah, and we talked about this the wolves, the evil people in the world, what they're good at, they don't just randomly do evil acts everywhere they go.

What they're good at is they're good at picking out the targets. They're good at finding that isolated person. They're good at finding that person that's, you know, maybe they're depressed, and then they drive that wedge between them and their community. So they separate them. 

We talked about this, like cult leaders. They know how to drive that wedge and separate them from their family. You know, you don't walk up to somebody in the street [00:48:00] and say, Hey I've got a cult and we'd love for you to join our worship of nature. And, you know, at the end of which we're going to drink this Kool Aid and we're all going to go to heaven together because it's exciting. You know, you don't, you don't start with that.

You don't lead with that. There's a process to it. And the first thing you do is separate them from their family. So there's one aspect of the path that I think can be seen as your community your path is your community. Yeah and getting Red Riding Hood off the path wasn't merely let's get Red Riding Hood to get out of safety, right? 

It's something about pulling her away from her community. So, now we've got that wedge, now we've separated her from the rest of culture and now I can whisper anything I want to in her ear and she'll just go wherever I lead her. 

David: As you said that it occurred to me, it's funny because they live in town, she has to go to grandma's house, you would expect maybe some friends to go along with her. Right. But she doesn't seem to have any friends. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that seems a little obvious too, you're right. 

David: she goes out on the path, [00:49:00] but she has no community. 

J.R.: Yeah, which goes back to your idea that she's this special girl. <Sure, yeah.> That's actually been isolated from her friends because she's special.

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Or perceived that way. 

David: Yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Well, and also, you go to the second story, the second act. <Mm hmm.> In that, she says to the grandma I'm certain that the wolf would have pounced on me, but I was on the public path. I was on the path around people. So there's kind of like this implication that she's not off in the woods by herself. I guess there's people around because she's on a path. 

David: The second time. <Yeah. Yeah.> Yeah, which is why I think we can see that as the story developing as something much larger, right? Right. So, yeah, that's an interesting point. 

J.R.: Yeah, that the path could have a deeper meaning of sort of saying your community. Yeah. The people around you. And if you separate that person from community, well, then you're liable to do anything.

David: Yeah. Yep. All right. Let's go back to the big bad wolf, because in the story, Little Red Riding Hood tells him exactly how to get to grandma's house that grandma's sick. Grandma's vulnerable, right? Like she really hangs grandma out to [00:50:00] dry. <Yeah.> So the wolf goes to grandma's house, right? And let's see, knocks on the door and the wolf knows all the things to say, to get into the house.

<Right.> And it just says immediately ate grandma. He stepped inside, went straight to grandma's bed and ate her up. 

J.R.: Swallowed her up. Yep. 

David: And again, I'm trying to remember in the original stories, if that's, maybe it was kind of the cartoon version where, you know, 

J.R.: stuffs her in a closet or something? 

David: Takes a big gulp, but then like burps and like the person comes back out or something like that. But in this, the wolf devours the grandmother straight away. Right? Right. 

So in the meantime, Little Red Riding Hood runs and picks all these flowers, spends quite a lot of time, has a huge bouquet to bring to her grandmother. Right. Along with the cake and the wine, right? It's good. So it's going to, yeah. So anyway, she gets there and then here's kind of the classic conversation where she goes to the wolf who's lying in grandma's bed and says oh, grandma, what big ears you have, right?

All the better to hear you with. So we can go through all that. Like what big [00:51:00] eyes you have, what big hands you have. And then she says what a horribly big mouth you have. And he says, all the better to eat you with. And at that, he jumped out of the bed, jumped on poor little Red Riding Hood and ate her up too.

J.R.: Yeah, do you think that there's some significance? We haven't talked about this. Is there some significance to the, the eyes, the ears, the hands? 

David: Well, it's one of those things where immediately you go, Well, how do you mistake 

J.R.: Right. Sure. The absurdity of 

David: The absurdity. So it's another one of those things where if something just seems so absurd, even in a fairy tale, <Yeah.> it's trying to tell you something. Yeah. Right? It's interesting because Okay, so there's a contrast between she has her eyes open to the woods and then goes to grandma's but can't see what's right in front of her. Yeah, something like that. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Yeah I kind of thought about the eyes the hands the ears and I was trying to pull some deeper meaning of it out. <Yeah.> There is a chance that in this particular one that those lines are there for the oral tradition, [00:52:00] you know that this is a build up so you can imagine somebody telling this story. And you know, you kind of oh, grandma, what big eyes, better to see you, you know, and so you can see the voices, you can see the buildup and you can see the kids that are kind of setting Indian style around the speaker that are just getting pulled into this moment.

<Yeah. Yeah.> They know something bad is about to happen. And then of course they say better to eat you with. And so I don't know if there's something deeply significant about the eyes, ears and hands, or if it's just sort of a narrative element. It's part of the narrative hook. <Yeah, yeah.> just to build up this moment.

David: Yeah, it wouldn't be the same story if it just said Little Red Riding Hood came and the wolf ate her too, right? There's definitely something about that progression going on. 

J.R.: Right, but I like what you said about her eyes were open in the forest. But then she goes to grandma's. It's almost like she's been introduced to the woods. She's been introduced to see that the wilderness is not a completely evil place. 

David: Well, I wonder, okay, so [00:53:00] back to something you said. Sorry to interrupt, so when you're young you think your parents know everything, right? <Mm hmm.> You go out into the world, your eyes are opened, and what happens? Well, your parents are idiots. They don't know anything. You're blinded. Yeah. I wonder if it's that. 

J.R.: No, It may be that. I think you may be on to that. 

David: So she goes to another authority figure who has raised her. You know, and all of a sudden, like, she doesn't even know grandma because she's been out in the woods.

J.R.: Yes, I think you're on to something there. 

David: The flowers, maybe she got into the wine. 

J.R.: It's, yeah, that's right. It's that moment, and we all go through this. It's that moment in high school where your parents are completely lame, and then you get married, and you have bills to pay, and a job to go to, and that's when it hits you.

It's like, oh wow, mom and dad really were right the whole time. No, I like that. Yeah, and so what, they didn't understand what was on MTV or social media. That's what's date ourselves. You know, so what, that they don't understand how the cell phone works and all the details of it. They have a broader [00:54:00] understanding of life.

And so in this context, we've got Red Riding Hood goes out into the woods. She opens her eyes to the real world. Suddenly, everything her mom told her, she's completely wrong. There's all kinds of awesome things off the path. Don't tell me that there's nothing good in the woods. There's all kinds of, there's flowers in the woods.

But then she goes to the next authority figure, and she can't see her for what she is. 

David: Yeah, I think it might be something like that. 

J.R.: I think that's exactly what it is. She couldn't see her for what she was. So when she goes into the woods and her eyes are opened just like a kid that actually means her eyes are blinded to the traditional authority figures while she reorients her life and figures out that mom and dad, it's not that they didn't know anything.

It's just that out in the world, the modern social things, they didn't quite, get the social media, right?

David: It's interesting because it says her eyes were open and she could see the sunlight breaking through the tree. It's almost like the sunlight in some ways, it's almost like the bright lights dazzles you, but it also blinds you.  

<Yeah.> Right? <Yeah.> To the [00:55:00] safety of home. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's another good point. 

David: Something like that, maybe. 

J.R.: Yeah. So I think a good summary of what we just said is there's something about going out in the world, seeing what it has to offer.

It's not all bad. Like mom and dad says, but also don't go back and be blinded by home that you were raised in. Mom and dad do know what they're talking about and you know <Yeah.> she goes back to the grandma's house and she doesn't even recognize her for the wolf that he is Okay. 

David: All right moving along now. This is interesting because he's eaten the grandma and Little Red Riding Hood, and he falls asleep in grandma's bed. 

J.R.: Mm hmm. 

David: And it said just at that time, when the wolf is asleep, a huntsman walks by, right? Now this is interesting because a lot of the stories of the fairy tales have a huntsman. <Mm hmm.> That's not a familiar term to us today. Right. Right? Yeah. But it's basically I would say a professional hunter. It's a hunter by trade who is acquiring pelts, food for the village. <Mm hmm.> Sometimes the huntsman is one who provides like deer [00:56:00] meat for the king. <Yeah.> So it's that role in that society.

J.R.: Well, if you go into the woods, who do you want with you? You want the huntsman. He's familiar. He's a hunter. That's right. So, so you look at the hunter as a guide. I want to go into the woods with a guy who knows how the woods work, who can capture his food if we need it and knows how to read the sunlight and this is the direction we need to go. And so you can look at the huntsman like a guide. 

David: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think so. I think the huntsman is both a protector and a guide for those who venture into the wilderness. I think that's the way to see that. And it's interesting because you see this in, sometimes in Greek mythology, that when the hero wanders into the wilderness, often times they will encounter a guide who will say, this is what you need to survive the wilderness. <Right.> Sometimes it's a god or a goddess even, right? 

J.R.: Right. And sometimes they'll give him some item. He says, use this.

It's Father Christmas in Narnia series. You know, he shows up, he knows how to deal [00:57:00] with the snow, the winter, and he gives each of the kids, gives one a sword, one a dagger, one a bow, you know, it's like he prepares them for their journey. 

David: Yeah, okay, so here's a good example. Did you watch the series American Primeval? 

J.R.: Oh, yes, it's great. 

David: That is a great show, right? 

J.R.: Yes, it's fantastic. 

David: Yeah, so, you know the character, one of the main characters, the guy who guides the woman and her son through the wilderness. Yeah. That's a huntsman, right? <Yeah, yeah.> He doesn't fit in in society, necessarily. He's rough around the edges, right? At first, she's like, I'm not going to go with this guy. <Right.> But he's the only thing that keeps them alive through the wilderness.

J.R.: Yeah, he doesn't fit in polite society. 

David: Yeah, and I think that's the role of the huntsman. 

J.R.: Yeah, he's perfectly fitted for the forest. 

David: Because the huntsman just kind of appears in the story and then disappears. 

J.R.: Yeah, in kind of a strange way. You know, I love the line about he heard the grandmother snoring and so he thought well, I better go check on her. Yeah you know, you hear somebody snoring? It's like yeah, let's leave this. 

David: I better go check on it. 

J.R.: Yeah, let's let this gal alone. You know, the first thing he [00:58:00] thinks is let me go wake her up, right? 

David: Yeah, that's right That's right. 

J.R.: Yeah, but the point is is that he knew something was amiss. He walks in. He sees that something's not right. And of course unlike Red Riding Hood recognizes the wolf immediately for what he is. He's still dressed up in grandma's clothes. Yeah, right. Yeah, but he knows exactly who this is. Yeah, and what's his line? 

David: In fact, he says he has eaten the grandmother, but perhaps she can still be saved. Which is kind of funny to me. Yeah, because again, it's one of those absurd elements. The lion <Yeah.> The lion just ate that guy. Well, we might be able to save him. Like, no. 

J.R.: Okay, so this is worth talking about it's another one of those absurdities. Yeah makes you dig a little bit. What is the significance? Because the story, for most people, especially if you think of it as don't leave the path, do what's right, listen to mom and dad.

Yeah. If you have that surface understanding of the story, then you very well could have easily said the huntsman came in, saw the wolf, shot him, killed the wolf, and [00:59:00] maybe you even can say saved the grandmother. <Yeah. Yeah.> We discussed this and said, this is very specific for a specific reason. So let's get into the whole swallowed grandma whole.

<Yeah.> And then obviously he takes the scissors out, he cuts them out. He immediately sees the red cap, which I think we pointed out. 

David: Yeah, it's interesting. So that's the only other time the red cap comes into play in this story. 

J.R.: Right. When he cuts open the belly of the wolf, he immediately sees the red cap. Yeah. And you and I were saying, I think that means the huntsman immediately recognized this is a vulnerable person. This was a target from the beginning sort of like, you know in American Primeval. The old man in the wilderness sees this woman and her son and immediately sees their red cap. They're a target. There's no way they're making it. 

David: Oh, yeah, that's true. 

J.R.: To their destination. 

David: They scream vulnerability. 

J.R.: Yes. Yeah So when he cuts open the wolf sees the red cap, that's that moment where the Huntsman says Yep, here's a vulnerable target. I need to do [01:00:00] what I can. 

David: In fact, he declines to lead them, but they're attacked at their first camp and he shows up, Right? And the very reason right it's that red cap, right? The very reason is he saw these people as vulnerable. These people are never gonna make it. 

J.R.: Yeah, and he originally left and thought yeah best of luck. But then the more he thought about it, he thought look they're in over their head. They're already swallowed. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: The wilderness has already swallowed these people and he thought, okay, with my help, I might be able to guide them out of this and actually get them to where they need to go. And so that's that whole,

we look at the story that, well, you've been eaten. There is no saving you, right? <Right.> But in the context of the huntsman, he looks at it and says, yes, they're already swallowed. The wolf has already done his damage. They're in over their head. They're completely gone, but I think I can get them out. 

David: Yeah, so this is interesting because why does he think he can save them? And it's not just because this is a cartoon. <Right.> The Belly of the Beast is another way of talking about a [01:01:00]descent to the underworld. <Yes.> And again, there's some biblical parallels here that we could pull out. So, I immediately thought of Jonah and the whale.

<Okay, yeah.> Right? So, what's another example of, you know, someone being swallowed by a beast and living, being trapped in the stomach? Well, it's Jonah and the whale. 

J.R.: Yeah, pulled down into the underworld. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Which is a descent to the underworld. So, it makes sense that Little Red Riding Hood gets pulled off the path, right? She loses her way. She loses her being able to see those people who maybe are authority figures or guides in her life. 

J.R.: Yeah, blinded by the world. 

David: And what's next? Well, she gets pulled into the underworld. 

J.R.: Yeah, she gets swallowed whole. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: No, I think that makes sense 

David: And that's why then you can see if that's what it means then that's why the wolf swallows them and they're alive That's why the guide can go into the underworld and pull them back out. 

J.R.: And pull them back out. That's right. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay, so this is helpful. This is a helpful lead in to what I said I had trouble with. I knew that I know that there's meaning to the [01:02:00] rocks. Okay, so I'm with you that he pulls them out of the underworld. They're both magically alive, right? There's grandma. Here's Red Riding Hood, but then they do this weird thing. <That's right.> And they take stones and take the time. Again, look, why not just blow the wolf's head off at this point? 

David: You're, you're, you know, hey huntsman you have a gun on your shoulder, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Why don't we use that? That seems like a quicker end to this. 

David: Here's a nutty idea. Shoot the wolf. 

J.R.: Yeah. But they take the time to put stones in his belly and sew him back up. <Yeah.> And then of course, the story goes on that the wolf wakes up. He tries to run away. And he falls 

David: under the weight of the stone, 

J.R.: the weight of the stone, and that's what kills him, right?

Okay. So what is the significance there? There's gotta be, you know, there's just a dozen better ways to have offed the wolf. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. So there's something about the stone and all right, I'm gonna throw this out there because what it reminded me of is, the Greek myth where Kronos devours his children, right? His [01:03:00] wife, Rhea, keeps having children. Kronos doesn't, he's not a family guy. So he eats all his children, right? As absurd as that sounds, it's the same thing, right? It's the absurd part of the story. <Right.> So, Rhea has another child and she doesn't want Kronos to devour this one. And what does she do? 

J.R.: Yeah, she, this was Zeus, right?

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, so she gives birth to Zeus. <Yeah.> And she basically puts a blanket around a stone. 

David: She takes the baby blanket. 

J.R.: Yeah, puts a stone on it and Kronos, right on target, walks up, sees the baby blanket and swallows the stone. Yeah. Right? Yeah. 

David: Yeah. Okay, so think about what's going on there. So what's the purpose of the stone? And then, of course, that allows Zeus to grow up on the island. I want to say he grows up on the island of Crete. He becomes strong. He becomes you know, mature. He becomes ready to confront his father. And what does he do? 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: He slices his father's belly open. And all of his siblings come out. 

J.R.: Right. Again, completely alive. 

David: [01:04:00] Yeah. So there's a ring of that in this story. So I started thinking about, okay, what does the rock, what does the stone represent? The stone represents I think something with density, something with what, like substance, volume, whatever you want to say, but actually has very little value at all.

It's a poor substitute, but , it does a couple of things. Number one, it fools the beast, the monster, right? Kronos feels full right? Oh gosh. I can't eat another child, right? <Yeah.> So it buys Zeus time to come back and then actually confront the monster. <Yeah.> So I think there's something like that that the stones represent this idea of in order to defeat the beast, you have to actually buy yourself some time to get yourself together to say, how am I going to slay the dragon?

Here's another way stones that you see in cartoons, stones kind of function is like the dragon is guarding the gold, right? And cartoons have taught us that one way to get the gold [01:05:00] is to take a bunch of rocks and spray paint them yellow. <Right.> And then sneak in, right? Swap the rocks for the gold.

So again, you're swapping something that has no value for something that you want to obtain. <Right. Yeah.> And it buys you time because the dragon looks around and says, Oh, there's all the gold. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, that's right. 

David: And you can either get away, or you can go prepare yourself then to ultimately go defeat the dragon. I don't know. I think something like that is going on here. 

J.R.: No I, think you're onto something. That there's something, the substitution aspect of it. Before you can defeat the beast, you have to satiate the beast. You have to give yourself enough time to come up with a plan on how to, you don't just walk into a lion's den.

<Yeah. Yeah.> You know what I mean? But you know, if you have a plan, let's satiate the beast and then come up with a plan. <Yeah.> And so there is something, and it's real subtle in Red Riding Hood at least, because all that happens is he wakes up and falls over dead. 

David: Yeah, he runs off. The weight of the rocks kills him and that's [01:06:00] it. 

J.R.: Well, when you see the wolf, not as a wolf, when you see the wolf as chaos, you realize you're not going to defeat chaos. You don't take a gun out and shoot Chaos. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: Right, so once you understand that, then you see that all you can do is Chaos can defeat itself, or Chaos can be you know, there's a reason why the Huntsman was actually, in reality, unable to actually kill the Wolf. <Yeah, right.> You know, yeah, the wolf has to off itself in some ways. 

David: Well, so here's another example; it might help people understand. So if I come to you and say dude I'm trying to stop smoking and your response to me was well, I'll tell you what to do. Just stop.

J.R.: Yeah. Look at me I don't smoke 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And it doesn't bother me. Right. 

David: That's not helpful.

J.R.: Yeah, exactly. 

David: Right. That's just shooting the wolf. <Right.> You just say, well, shoot the wolf. And it's like, okay, if the wolf, I like what you said. <Yeah.> If you see it as just a wolf, then that's what you do. If the wolf is a complex problem or malevolence out in the [01:07:00] world, then no, you don't just shoot the wolf.

Now, if you helped me, If you said, here's some suggestions to stop, probably what a lot of things you would suggest would be the idea of substituting. 

J.R.: Yeah. Substitution. Sure. 

David: Right? <Yeah.> here's a bag of, I don't know. <Peppermints.> Yeah. Here's a bag of peppermints. Here's some lollipops. Like when you feel like smoking, go do this. What is all that doing? It's substituting, right? <Yeah.> It's taking, in this case, what you want or what's valuable to you, maybe your health, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: And you're substituting it of something that has very little value, but it almost fools you into thinking no, no, no I'm being satiated right now, right?

J.R.: No, I think you're on to something that if you're gonna defeat chaos, an unhelpful person just says well, I don't have that problem. So you shouldn't have that problem. <Yeah.> That's that's shooting the wolf. That's a great way to look at it. Instead, you help somebody if the proper guide actually guides you and says, here's how we together can figure out a path to defeat your dragon.

<Yeah.> And [01:08:00] again, the dragon represents, whatever, chaos, malevolence. <Yeah.> You don't just cut the dragon's head off. You have to come up with a plan to substitute and find your way out of the underworld to pull yourself out. And that's where the guide helps. So the Huntsman in a way represents more than just merely a guide.

The Huntsman is the person that understands the wolf as chaos for what it is. <Yeah.> And doesn't just walk up and say, well, I'm just going to shoot him. <Yeah.> He thinks about it. He says, okay, here's how I can help you defeat the wolf. We can get you out of the belly. And then we can actually turn chaos on itself and move on and learn from this.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I like that. 

David: Yeah, that's really interesting. And so just to put a bow on this section, then they live happily ever after, right? 

J.R.: Right. Yeah, exactly. 

David: No, No, it's funny because that's where we expect the story to end and it doesn't end there. But Little Red Riding Hood does say something interesting before it goes to this kind of reprisal of the whole thing.

She says, "As long as I live, I will never leave the path [01:09:00] and run off into the woods by myself. If my mother tells me not to." Now there again, that sounds like, okay, lesson learned, but I think you and I were talking about it. That's kind of still a naive approach, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. It's not a complete understanding, which of how the world works.

David: Exactly. Which is why the next part of the story actually makes sense. It's actually needed to complete the whole thing, right? Yeah, because a lot of times, the stories we read growing up in Little Red Riding Hood, that's where the story ends. <Yeah, sure.> Okay, lesson learned. I'm not going to go off the path anymore.

J.R.: Yeah, and we don't have to get into the details, all the nitty gritty of the second act, but the best way to understand the second act is, this is what happens when you have a little street smart, so you know how the world works.

And so you see that Red Riding Hood has matured. She doesn't know everything yet, but she's matured and she knows now how to view the wolf properly. She knows now how to view grandmother properly. Yeah, that's right. She recognizes her for who she is now. So, the second story is, she's on the path, she runs to grandma's, and [01:10:00] she's like, she looks back.

David: She stays on the path. 

J.R.: Yeah, stays on the path, she looks back and says, "Had I strayed off the path, I'm sure he would have eaten me up, so I came straight to you."

Right? And so now she sees the value of grandmother. <Mm hmm.> Comes straight to her, and they hatch this plan to kill the second wolf, right? And they don't need the huntsman. The huntsman's not in the second episode. 

David: Yeah, now that's interesting. 

J.R.: Yeah, because they've been equipped to do it on their own. 

David: The proper guide has equipped them to not be dependent on him. He's equipped them to handle the wolf themselves. 

J.R.: Yep, A good teacher strives to become obsolete. They want the student to be able to do all this stuff on their own. <Yeah.> You know, I need to step out of the picture and you handle it now. And so, riding hood and grandma. Yeah. They're able to handle the world on their own, apparently. 

David: Yeah, there's a couple of interesting things about this second part that stuck out to me.

Number one, she goes to this idea that I stayed on the path, I'll be safe. <Mm hmm.> But in the second part, she actually shows that that's not true, right? Because she specifically says, "I stayed on the path. Had I not been [01:11:00] on public streets, the wolf would have devoured me." <Mm hmm.> But the wolf still followed her home.

<Right.> So there's something about like elevating it. It's like No, it's not just about staying on the path. It's about, what, equipping yourself to handle yourself when the wolf does come. It's kind of like the naive thing to say you know, look, if you go to church and read your Bible, nothing bad will happen to you. <Right. Yeah.> It's like, no. What world do you live in? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. It, at best, it will equip you for when the bad things happen. It may equipment, yeah. I'll have, I'll have a way of viewing it, a way of handling it. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: Okay, so, in the second act, she clearly recognizes the wolf for who he is, as opposed to the first one where she just had no idea.

David: Yeah, so that's progress. 

J.R.: So, yeah, so we're getting somewhere. She goes to grandma. Grandma and her hatched this plan, right? And one thing that you mentioned, this may not be exactly right, but you brought up the idea that the grandma is actually Red Riding Hood in the future.

Her future self. You'd brought that up and it may not be, exactly like, [01:12:00] you know, what we're saying, but there is something about the grandma is a representation of Red Riding Hood, had she not understood the world? In other words, in the first story, Red Riding Hood is naive. She doesn't know how the world works and grandma is sick and in bed and easily overcome. <Yeah, yeah.> And that's like, that's what happens. 

David: So grandma is mirroring Red Riding Hood's character or maturity or something like that. Yeah. Somehow. 

J.R.: That if things don't change, you're going to end up being the bedridden grandma. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, in the next story, because that holds true, so in the next act, the grandma's actually thinking along with Red Riding Hood, How can we defeat this wolf? We can do this. Right? The grandma's up, she's coming up hatching the plan, they get rid of the wolves on their own. 

David: Yeah, and it's actually really more of the grandma's right plan that does this. It's not Little Red Riding Hood, right? It's grandma. So yeah, I do think there's something at this idea that somehow the [01:13:00] grandma is a reflection of Little Red Riding Hood in the future. And look you can the reality is like if you look at your parents in some ways you are looking at yourself in the future. 

J.R.: Yeah, sure. 

David: You know? 

J.R.: Yeah, and there is something about Red Riding Hood doesn't know everything right now. She clearly is able to recognize the wolf. But then the grandma's reflection of if life continues on, you'll end up being the helpful grandmother.

And that's another image that's all through fairy tales is the image of the grandmother. <Yeah.> And so I think it's interesting that the grandmother is usually something like the fairy godmother, more of the guide, more of the wise helper that helps somebody through that. <Yeah.>

But I think it's interesting that the grandmother in the first story is bedridden and weak and unable to do anything. And that's sort of because Red Riding Hood was naive and foolish of the world and tried, you know, yeah, that's right. But with a little bit of street smarts, with a little bit of experience in the world, you can eventually be the grandmother, be the wise counsel that we eventually [01:14:00] want to become, you know, to be that wise voice of reason to the younger generation. 

David: Yeah. All right. So I guess to wrap this up, so we talked about the simplistic moral of the story. But I think we've talked about kind of a bigger meaning of the story, which is something like Red Riding Hood is, look, I almost see it as a hero's journey. It's a story about how every person has to take the hero's journey.

You have to leave the comfort of your home, right? And you have to go face the wilderness or the forest. <Mm hmm.> And it's full of danger. But it's also full of growth and opportunity. <Yeah.> And so we see Little Red Riding Hood kind of making these leaps in maturity. And so she's a kid the whole time, but in some ways she's actually progressing the path is like to adulthood or something like that, right?

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. 

David: And that's why I think ultimately like the grandma is almost a reflection of her. She becomes the older, wiser woman who can take [01:15:00] care of herself and fend the wolves off. 

J.R.: Right. 

David: Something like that. 

J.R.: Yeah, it's something about maturity of dealing with the world. You know, and to go back to the very beginning. The mother thought that she could just lay some rules out to Red Riding Hood and that would be enough to deal with the world. 

You know, you, you talk to parents all the time and they're like, man, I wish there was a handbook. Why isn't there a handbook on how to raise kids? And the reason there is because they're all different. I mean, there is no one perfect way. There are some things to avoid, you know, you can get some good wisdom from other parents. But in general man, it's foolish to think that here, read this book and this will be how to raise your kid. And that's kind of what the mother at the beginning did and since <yeah> we never hear from the mother again. And so in the second act, you don't hear from the mother. You know, so in the first one, the only thing she had to navigate the world with is what her mom said. 

David: Yeah. 

J.R.: And in the second act, again, this idea of I've matured, she's growing up. She's knowing how the world works. You notice that she doesn't have to [01:16:00] have this, quote unquote rule book of how to navigate the world from her mom anymore. She's just out there. It just starts and says, you know another time when she was on the path. <Yeah.> You know she avoided the wolf. 

David: Which is almost that representation of, okay, she's out of mom's house now, even though with this story, you know, she is but it's almost like if you see it as okay Mom's not in the picture anymore. I'm on my own. I can do this on my own. 

J.R.: Yeah Yeah, so yeah, it's interesting because of that you can really see this is a coming of age story <Yeah> of how to navigate the world. Yeah, and that the world is not this terrible place like some overprotective parents would like to portray it as. There's opportunities, there's all kinds of experiences.

So this idea that just stay on the path and do the right thing and you'll make it through. That's a little bit of a naive overprotective way of viewing the world. And what this story is showing is that she went out in the world. She had this underworld experience. She almost got swallowed up by the world, had it not been for the huntsman that guided them out. [01:17:00] But she's learned. She's done the hero's journey. She's been to the underworld. She's come out and now she recognizes wolves for what they are. She recognizes grandma for what she is. And they can actually navigate the world and come to a what they're on their own. And they don't need anybody else. They don't need the huntsman. They don't need the mother. 

David: Yeah. Now she's free to take the path whenever she wants because she knows how to navigate it. She knows what to look out for. She can go enjoy the wisdom of her grandmother, right? 

J.R.: No, I like that. I like that. So, in a way, the huntsman is a mirror of the mother.

David: Uh, Yeah. I could see that. And look, the mother doesn't totally mess up because the mother actually has the courage at some point to say, go to grandma's house on your own. <Yeah.> Right? Because Yeah, she doesn't lock her up. The smothering mother would just say, never leave the yard. 

J.R.: Yeah. Well, that's Rapunzel. Yeah, the father puts locks are in the tower. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, give the mother a little credit, but yeah, I think you're right the huntsman becomes the guide that the mother, maybe the role that mother no [01:18:00] longer could fulfill out in the world or something like that. 

J.R.: I'm so glad you brought up American Primeval because that's really is that story. It is. The mother was a good mom, you know, and she was trying to do the right thing. But they got in over their head and how she knew how to navigate polite society was completely fine. But when they got off in the woods, when they got off in the wilderness, it took that outsider to come in and help them pull through.

David: Yeah. And look. American Primeval is not exactly a Disney story of, oh gosh, that's what made. But you're right. It's actually, I just thought, remember that it's actually a perfect example of this whole idea because the mother is man, I found myself getting almost like frustrated at the mom going, quit being so bullheaded, like accept help, right? Like you're going to get you and your son killed, right? 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. The stakes are a lot higher than the town that you came from. 

David: Which may suggest something like it's like the wisdom of your parents can only take you so far. 

J.R.: I think that's right. 

David: As [01:19:00] much as they can equip you.

J.R.: Yeah. 

David: Yeah. It's something like that. 

J.R.: And it's why all of us go through that middle school journey of mom and dad don't know what they're talking about. Well, because we have to do our own journey and times change from when your parents were in middle school and the styles change and they just, you know, we don't understand it.

And so you kind of have to form your own path. And the good parent equips a kid to again, equips the child for the path, not the path for the child. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. 

J.R.: And yeah, I really do think that we've kind of, I think captured the deeper meaning of this whole story and all the elements play in all the elements make sense now.

David: Yeah. And it bears mentioning that if you find yourself going, man, these guys are just making this stuff up. How in the world do you think you're right? Well, look, there's a way to test if the pattern holds true, right? If it helps make better sense of the story, then you're onto something.

I'm not going to say everything we said was a hundred percent right. I've used this example when studying books of the Bible. So you got this theory. Is this what's [01:20:00] being said? Well, test it. <Yeah.> Does it make everything fall into place? <Right.> Or does it just confuse you more? <Yeah.> Well, if everything starts falling into place, then maybe you're on to something. Maybe you're not, you're at least headed down the right path, right? 

J.R.: Yeah, when you see the proper way to understand something, it makes things fall into place in a clearer way. It doesn't make it more, you know, if you look at it the wrong way, then, well, you may have solved this problem A, but now you've created problem B, C, E, you know, all these other problems, it's because you haven't quite got the pattern you don't have the worldview exactly right on the way to view this story or this narrative.

David: And you see someone who says, you know, I have a theory, whether it's the Bible or something else, like I have a theory. But then they spend the rest of their time, like just patching over stuff that <right> theory undoes about the whole story. Yeah, eventually you got to go look dude abandon your theory. 

J.R.: Well, it's why conspiracies are fun because you talk to somebody that says yeah 9 11 was an inside job or the moon landing was fake. There's all these [01:21:00] interesting things that they show you. They're like, well, look at this picture or we were always told we could never use cell phones on planes. But then all these people are able to make the call to their families and things like that.

And so there's always some kind of interesting tidbit that makes you think, well, yeah, that is kind of strange. But then all it takes is a couple common sense questions of, okay, so what is there some system that actually shuts down cell phones, but they turned it on for this flight? You know, I had no idea, you know, it's like the whole thing falls apart.

<Yeah. Yeah.> But it's what makes conspiracies fun, because they get hooked by a couple inconsistencies of the perceived narrative and you're like, yeah, that doesn't make sense. But then you actually go a little bit further and you're like, yeah, nevermind. This is, you just, yeah. Abandon it. <Yeah.> The fact that you had to have hundreds of people involved in planning explosives and you know, anyway, so yeah, I think that's the way to understand this.

David: Alright, so Little Red Riding Hood and American Primeval, who knew that intersection would take place? 

J.R.: Man, I almost wish that we had discussed this before the podcast. We probably could have drawn some more connections. [01:22:00]

David: That's right. 

J.R.: And it would have given us an excuse to re watch American Primeval. <Yeah.> Which is fantastic, so go watch it. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Alright, well that was just the first one. And I don't know that we landed which one we're going to do next, but we're going to do this, you know, several more times.

So, hope you enjoyed listening to it. Part of the idea behind this is that as we do these, maybe as you're listening to this, some things will start clicking just as you listen to the stories, and that's kind of the hope. And maybe you start to see this elsewhere in the world, in the Bible, right? You see these patterns. 

J.R.: Yeah, and these episodes are also really lend themselves to other people's opinions. So, man, please drop us a comment. 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

J.R.: Hit our Facebook page. Cause we want to know what you guys see, you know, me and you get together and I'll have an idea of what this means. And you'll have an idea of what this means.

And sometimes when we get to talking, that's where really the things fall into place, you know? Like we were saying, I didn't have a completely good understanding of the whole thing, but then you and I together somehow come up with that. So we'd love to have your [01:23:00] comments on how you see it or elements that you picked up on that either reinforce or go against the way we see it.

David: Yeah, that's right. And I'm sure someone out there is listening to the story and going, how did you guys not talk about this, right? <Right.> We might've missed something. So yeah, Facebook I put an email link now. <Oh good.> I don't know if you saw that. Okay, put an email link in the show notes so and we will talk to you next episode for another fairy tale.

J.R.: There we go. Happily ever after