Ancient Stories: The Fisherman and His Wife

In this episode of Ancient Stories on the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast, we dive into the rich layers of the classic fairytale The Fisherman and His Wife! 🌊🏰 Join us as we explore the dance between order and chaos through the passive fisherman and his ever-ambitious wife. 🧜‍♂️👑 We’ll uncover the symbolism of the enchanted flounder 🐟, draw fascinating parallels to biblical narratives 📖, and reveal the timeless lessons hidden within this charming — and cautionary — tale. 🎣 Whether you're passionate about literary analysis, psychological dynamics, or theological insights, this conversation will give you a fresh perspective on an age-old story! 🌟

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Read 📖 the article, The Wisdom of Ancient Stories

Listen 🎧 to the episode Philippians 2 and The Descent

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Chapters

• 0:00 Symbolism in Fairytales
• 9:53 Introducing The Fisherman and His Wife
• 29:05 Symbolic Elements in The Fisherman and His Wife
• 46:09 The Fisherman's Contentment vs. Wife's Ambition
• 1:03:12 The Castle Upgrade: A New Level of Desire
• 1:14:35 The Final Wish: The Ultimate Overreach
• 1:35:24 The Flounder: Divine Power in Humble Form

Transcript

The Fisherman and His Wife

David: [00:00:00] I'll also just say The Old Man and The Sea would not have been the same if the old man had to go conquer the great flounder of the deep. 

JR: The great flounder. Yeah. He comes back with this, four pound flounder and everybody's like, yeah, so what? Don't you see? This is the largest herring that anyone's ever caught.

David: Wait, this is your nemesis? This is the great adversary you've been talking about the last 20 years. It's a flounder. 

Alright. Before we get started today, I wanted to ask you, did you see Titus from Texas actually threw a comment up on our Little Red riding Hood episode. 

JR: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

David: Did you see that?

JR: Yeah. I actually replied to it and it was, it was, pretty insightful. I thought it was interesting. It makes me wish we had caught that from the beginning, but that's kind of what fairytales and good narratives lend themselves to anyway. Multiple different ways of viewing it and multiple different ways of relating to it.

David: Yeah, and the hope is that we're encouraging people to say, think about these on your own and think about things we missed. So yeah, it was fun [00:01:00] that, you know, we threw the first one out there and someone immediately commented to say, Hey, I think the red Cape might mean the mother's covering of the child.

I thought, oh yeah, that's good. That's good. And that's why these fairytales are fun, right? Because we have our opinions. We'll throw 'em out there. But as you're listening to this, you may say, well, I can't believe you guys missed this angle. 'cause I'm sure we do miss a lot of angles, you know? So it was fun. 

JR: Oh yeah. Well it was an hour and a half podcast, so unless you want it to be four hours. We're just, we could just go on and on about all of 'em. Right. Can't cover every rabbit trail. 

David: We can't possibly do all that, but yeah. Just to get the conversation started. 

JR: But you're right to his point, I like the idea of the mother's attempt to cover or protect her daughter while at the same time the covering blinded her from the world. You know, he made the point kind of that, this idea of a hoodie, you know, how it kind of comes in front of your eyes, kinda like the blinders of a horse where all you can see is right in front of you.

And it did, it kind of made a little bit more sense as far as wandering from the path, looking up and seeing the sun, [00:02:00] finally seeing the flowers for the first time. 'cause you know, as the reader, you're like, what do you mean her eyes were opened? How did you not see what was right? I mean, was she just staring straight in front of her?

And the answer is, well, maybe, you know, because of the cape.

David: That was an interesting call out. yeah. And along the same lines as what we were talking about too. So, a little, just bit of a different take on it, but yeah.

JR: Well, that's just symbolic thinking in general.

David: Yeah, you can come up with all kinds of different interpretations of symbols that all mean roughly the same thing. And that's kind of what symbolic thinking involves. But the other thing I wanted to talk about before we jump into our fairytale today. Because we ended last episode talking about Snow White, and we decided we weren't gonna delve into that controversy because Snow White is the hot topic right now. Right? 

JR: Oh, yeah. Right. 

David: It's, officially bombed at the box office. And there are people wondering or what's the big deal with their interpretation. But it does bring up something I want to bring up before we jump back in just because there are symbols throughout a fairytale, it [00:03:00] doesn't mean you can interpret them however you want. Right? 

JR: Yeah. It doesn't mean that you can completely change it to suit today's politically correct narrative. Right? I mean that if you change one aspect of it you're actually changing the whole story. If you understand what the entire structure is. It doesn't mean you can't take liberties with it.

There's retellings of all kinds of myths and how many times has the Iliad been retold in different stories. So it's okay that you can kind of toy with the idea, but you have to understand the fundamental principle of what it's saying before you can toy with it.

And it feels like, and I haven't seen it in fairness, it feels like Disney kind of toyed with some elements but didn't understand the overall narrative. And so the elements that they toyed with were lost. You know what I mean? Like, they don't, they don't make any sense. There's no narrative sense to it anymore.

David: I was thinking - I don't know if you remember the movie, Oh, Brother Where Art Thou, 

 which, 

JR: Right. 

David: Which was basically a modern interpretation of, I think it was the Odyssey. 

JR: Right. That's [00:04:00] right. 

David: When you saw the parallel, I've always wanted to go back and watch it 'cause I understand the Odyssey much better now.

But when you see the parallels, you, you see all these modern interpretations of what was happening in the Odyssey, right? And I remember some parts, but that's a way of modern interpretation that stays faithful to the story and the symbols in the story. Right? So you can change those around. But the feedback that I'm hearing on Snow White is, yeah, you can't change the fundamental meaning of some of the symbols just because you don't like what it says. And once you start doing that, you start changing the story and the story loses its punch. 

And like I said, I have no intention of watching the new Snow White Disney version, but I've listened to two or three people talk about it. And that's the gist I'm getting. When the mirror no longer represents the mirror. Right? 

And one of the things that I heard was when the, wicked stepmother says, who's the fairest of them all? And they tried to bring in this aspect of fair meaning beauty, but [00:05:00] also fair meaning, fairness, who's the fairest person? And it brought in this whole tension of, the whole point of the mirror is the mirror only sees what's external, right? That's why the mirror could reflect back to her in the original that you're the fairest. But then it says, no.

JR: Right. It plays to our own vanity. 

Right. 

David: I think Jonathan Pageau who said, a modern version of the mirror might be the cell phone. You know, who's the most popular of them all? Well, I go check my social media and my phone reflects back to me, right? Well you're pretty popular right now. You know, it was really interesting. 

So, a way of changing the symbol, but staying faithful to it. But my understanding is, I heard people talk about, well, how does the mirror know what's fair in the kingdom, right? 

How is the mirror able to reflect back? And then the mirror kind of goes back and forth. And what it led to is just confusion, right? 

JR: Yeah. Sometimes it means who's the most beautiful and sometimes it means who's the most, what equitable, you know? And, and those two things are completely different things. And just because the word is the same in our modern [00:06:00] context doesn't mean it can be just played with back and forth.

 You're right. It loses some of its continuity of what we're talking about. It feels like they unnecessarily brought in some politically correct modern elements because they feel the need to push this narrative into an old story. And you're right, it just becomes disjointed. Something else I noticed, and this is again, this is just from what I've heard, is that they're downplaying the prince at the end while shining a big spotlight on the dwarves. You know what I mean? So, so the dwarves play a bigger role than in the original story, and the prince plays a lesser role.

Well, okay. So if you understand the narrative of Snow White, that it's a coming of age, that the dwarves represent, half men and that's why you have Dopey and Bashful. They represent sort of this Yeah.

Yes, yes. That's what it's supposed to. Yes. It's supposed to show you this is what an incomplete man looks like.

And so you've got all the different characters of these incomplete half [00:07:00] men that she's having to navigate until she finds her prince. And the prince if you wanna see this story through your ideology, well then, yeah, the prince represents patriarchy and oppression. But really the prince is supposed to represent the ideal. You know, he's just supposed to say, here's the ideal man. And it's not saying that an ideal man rides a white horse and it's not literal, right? It's just trying to say, because he's on a white horse, because he's got this beautiful smile.

He's a prince. That's saying that here's the ideal man for Snow White after dealing with all these half men. Right? Okay. So when you downplay the prince aspect and you overplay the dwarves, because that's sort of, I guess, some comedic element to it, then you're left with the narrative arc that says, okay, what does she never find the ideal man for her? I mean, is she stuck in this world of half men of, incomplete masculinity? I don't know. And again, it's when it's played out wrong, you don't have the entire arc and the [00:08:00] entire narrative correct. And it becomes disjointed and we don't know what the overall story's about.

David: And not even that everyone could express all that, but you just walk away. I think I said last episode, you walk away, if a singer hits a wrong note, you just walk away going, ah, that wasn't quite right. I don't know why that didn't hit me. And yet when you hear one of these classic fairytales or you know, even one of the Disney classics retold really well, it's just a solid note and a beautiful song and you can't even really describe why.

Sometimes it's not until later that you understand why. You know, that's being true to the symbolic elements that make a story pop, as opposed to clang. Maybe the way to say it. 

JR: Yeah. And it's also because you're confused, because any modern story, especially when you have the budget of Disney, you're gonna walk away visually dazzled. It's gonna be flawless. The music's gonna be great. You know what I mean? The special effects are gonna be fantastic.

And so you've got this kind of visual aspect that's not gonna fall short. But then [00:09:00] again, this narrative aspect that falls short. And so you leave thinking man, that was, the special effects were cool and I liked this aspect and that aspect. But for some reason it just, I, I felt like they were trying to push a narrative.

I felt like the original story was somehow lost. And you just kind of walking away thinking, eh, and that's sort of the response you hear. 

David: Yeah, at best it was like <nice movie.> Yeah, it was okay.

JR: Yeah.

David: That's about it, right? 

JR: Yeah, exactly. 

David: Well, that was our two- cents on Snow White.

But really wanted to maybe more highlight of why people are responding the way they are. And maybe this series that we're doing right now is timely, because I do think there's some interest in why something didn't ring true, and how do you incorporate symbolism and the ancient understanding of stories to go back and appreciate some of the things that we're talking about. You know? So maybe the timing's just right for us. 

Alright, so today's fairytale is called The Fisherman and His Wife. We'll just set the stage for a [00:10:00] moment and then again, we'll let you listen to the fairy tale. This one is a little longer, although I don't think it's too much longer than the last one, just keep that in mind. But there's a lot of descriptive elements in this one. It's almost different from a lot of the other fairytales that we've been reading in that it really plays up the scene almost, right? At least that's, 

JR: Yeah. 

David: kind of what I gather. So, <Mm-hmm.> in some sense, it's more simple than some of the others we've been talking about, but it almost fills in the gaps with a lot of descriptive elements about what's happening. So that's my take on it. Anything you wanna say for we sit back and listen to it?

JR: No. The same thing. It's a lot of repetition. So you're gonna hear this repetitive theme going on and on, and you're right. Pay attention to all the little things that make you say, we've said this before. Anything that makes you scratch your head and say, wow, what does that represent?

That's a weird twist. Just pay attention to that because it means something in this story.

David: Alright. Without further ado, The Fisherman and His Wife.

[00:11:00] [00:12:00] [00:13:00] [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00] [00:19:00][00:20:00] [00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00] [00:26:00] [00:27:00] [00:28:00][00:29:00]

David: Yeah, so that was The Fisherman and His Wife. Hope you enjoyed it. This is one that the more I read this, I know last time I said I think One Eye, Two Eyes, Three Eyes is my favorite one. I'm not gonna say it's my favorite one, but this is one where the more, I read it several times now I got something a little deeper out of it every time I read it. I enjoyed it more and more.

JR: Yeah, the repetition, the first time I heard it, it just kept going and going. It's like, I want a bigger house, and then I want a castle, and then I wanna be emperor. And then, you know, it kept getting bigger and bigger and I was like, holy cow, where's this gonna stop? And obviously, well, it stops at being God or something like that, it just kept going.

When you're used to what narratives of three, you know, kind of this, this Yeah. Step number one, step number two, step number three, that sort of is the pattern in fairytales. When it kept going, I was just thinking, wow, this is never gonna stop. But you're right to your point, is that the more I listened to it, the more I think I [00:30:00] understood the deeper element of what it was trying to say. But right off the bat, it just kept getting bigger and bigger.

And I kind of call this maybe an anti fairytale, because if a fairytale ends with happily ever after this obviously ended on a bad note, right? They go back to their hovel, they go back to their, yeah. Right. So.

Yeah, exactly. 

David: A bit of the anti fairy tale then.

What do you call it? A, a horror tale or something like that, or a the Greeks would've called it a tragedy, right? 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Tragedy or cautionary tale. Yeah. It just doesn't follow the same, yeah, it doesn't follow the same narrative that typical fairytales do. So I thought that was interesting.

David: Yeah, you brought it up, so we can go ahead and talk about this for a second, because I thought the same thing. You see this repetition of three, right? So if the princess goes to the first village, right, and then the princess goes to the second village, you know, she's gonna go to three villages, and then something's gonna happen, right? Because there's always these repetitions of three. [00:31:00] And I heard someone say, you even see this in modern movies when something is brought up once, it's just a random note, right? 

JR: Coincidence or something. 

David: Yeah, when something's up twice, now it's a coincidence. You go, huh, that's weird. But when something is brought up three times now it's a pattern and you should pay attention. 

JR: Oh. 

David: And so you see that even in modern movies.

You know, what, whatever you wanna say, like three is you said earlier it's this perfect number of three. That three is easy to remember. Three establishes a pattern. But I think you're right. One of the things that first caught me off guard is when the wife says, I want a castle, and then I wanna be king, and then I wanna be emperor. I'm like, okay, there's the three. Well, she wasn't done. She just kept going, right? 

And I 

JR: She was just getting started. 

David: Yeah. And maybe that was the effect. Maybe it was supposed to say, this is the extent to which she's going because it's going well beyond this well established pattern of three or something like that.

And it almost grabs your attention in that way. 

JR: Yeah. The [00:32:00] pattern could have been established in three. If she had said, I want a nicer house, and then I wanna be king, and then I wanna be God, the pattern would've held true. You know, you would've gotten the point that she wasn't satisfied. But there's something about the slow progression of it that almost, I don't know, like you said, catches you off guard.

I was ready for number three to kind of summarize. Okay. Here we're at the end. Yeah. But then when it goes to four or five, six, you're like, oh my gosh, this is just never, and even the flounder's response, every time he goes back to the flounder, I'm expecting the flounder say, is she still not happy?

Come on dude. Can you not see what's happening here? Right. But the flounder just sort of passively, okay, go home as you wish. And we can get into that here in a minute, but it's just a, again, it's that slow, is nobody seeing what's going on. I almost think that it's intentional. It's not just a matter of the author thought of these six progressive steps, but it's almost like, I'm gonna drag this out.

I'm gonna make my listeners think, wow, when is this gonna stop? Or [00:33:00] when is the flounder finally gonna say something? Or when is the husband gonna say something? And I think it's designed to kind of drag out, you know?

David: Yeah, it very well could be. I just had this picture of, you know, when your pastor on Sunday, gets to the third point and you start packing stuff up or something, and then he says, all right, only three more points to go. Your reaction is, no dude, you know, 

3.3 point outline and wrap things up, you know? Maybe it's something like that. I don't know. 

JR: Yeah. Well, nobody knows what Roman numeral four is. I forget it. It's a, it's a v and a one, but I forget where it goes. Right. Why do you go past three, right?

David: There's no point. You've already lost the audience after three. 

JR: Exactly. 

David: Yeah. So maybe it is for dramatic effect.

Alright, so let's talk about some of the symbolic elements. And again, if you've been listening, I'm sure you have some of these question marks in your head, what does this mean? What does this mean? I found in this story that there's fewer of those, but you know, we can state the obvious ones real quick here. 

JR: It is a little bit easier because there's just a couple characters.

David: Yeah, okay. So the characters are the fishermen and his wife, and we'll dive into that as the story [00:34:00] unfolds. But certainly, that's pretty self-explanatory in terms of a symbolic element, right? 

JR: Yeah, again, the more I listened to it, the more I could see it as a typical husband and wife scenario, like a marriage, right? You could look at it that way. But also just kinda like we talked about in the previous episodes when there's a story of a family, a lot of times this is representative of society or this is representative of a group of people, not necessarily just a particular family, right? 

And so I kind of got both of those in this story. You can look at it a couple different ways. On one level. It's a simple story. It's this repetition of people that aren't happy with their lot in life or their place in life, and they want more and more, more. So it's simplistic in that way, but it's a little bit complex in that you can look at it as the dynamics of a marriage.

You can look at it as the dynamics of a society. You can look at it as, biblical tie into biblical narratives. There are several levels to this. And so it's simple on one hand, but the best simple stories actually lend themselves to several different layers of [00:35:00] analysis.

David: Yeah, I didn't really think about the societal level. Do you have any thoughts real quick on like, how the fishermen and his wife might resemble a larger community.

JR: Well, okay, so this is jumping in the deep end right away. But it's funny 'cause I looked back at my notes. I read on a Kindle and so I can, you know, I just type notes in and I was just looking at it and it was funny 'cause I had just told you it's like, man, for some reason under the fisherman and his wife, I wrote, this is a story about the Tower of Babel. 

David: Ok. Which would kind of bring in that whole, this is a picture of human society, what may be overreaching.

JR: Right, yeah, I said this mirrors the Tower of Babel. It's funny 'cause I was thinking, wow, I don't remember thinking that, but now that I look at it through that lens, I'm like, yeah, it's sort of not being happy with the current situation.

Always wanting to progress, always wanting to climb the tower. Always wanting more, you know, as a society. And when you continue to do that it leads to collapse under its own weight. Something like that. 

Yeah. So there's an angle of [00:36:00] it and, we don't have to get into it. Well, because I don't remember my notes. It's funny, the second time I read it, I got something completely different out of it. So if you wanna look at it as a societal narrative, then I kind of look at it, well, something like the Tower of Babel, always wanting more, always wanting to progress, never being satisfied.

It's not like a company ever says, man, we made this much money this year. Let's just do that again next year. Right? There's something in it that says, no, we gotta do more. You know, we gotta continue to grow.

David: Yeah, I could see that. I could definitely see that angle. I could see there's echoes of that idea in this story. 

Okay, 

JR: Right. So the fisherman and his wife, yeah, not only represent a marriage, but could represent society. But that's one of the characters, right?

David: One of the other big elements, I think we can pull out is that of the sea. It's intentional that this is a fisherman, and what he does is he goes out to the sea every day. 

JR: The sea provides for his family.

David: Yes, however meagerly. We're led to believe at the beginning. 

Yeah, it provides for his family. But it helped me then to see that the [00:37:00] sea is, and I said this last time, and I'm gonna say this probably every time. Last time in Little Red Riding Hood, it was the forest, right? One Eye, Two Eyes, Three Eyes. It was the pasture. This one, it's the sea. 

And in the bible it's the wilderness, right? It's the area beyond the confines of society that people go to encounter what? Chaos, but also to encounter potential. And I think in this case, that's what the sea represents.

JR: Yeah. I think that's exactly right. And I think we've pointed out before that when you see that number 40 in the Bible that represents the wilderness. Well then you go to something like the Noah story. He was on the sea for 40 days. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. That's the wilderness.

The fact that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights should be an indication that, this is Noah's wilderness journey. And so, to your point, the sea also in the Bible can represent the wilderness, at least in the Noah story.

David: Oh yeah, yeah. The sea, when they cross the Red Sea, that's an allusion to, well, crossing water. That's another big [00:38:00] symbolic element in Bible, or in other stories as well.

You know, when they're crossing the water, when they're going through the sea, they're going through a type of wilderness and transformation is taking place. So, all those elements are there as part of the sea.

One thing that was neat is a book that I just finished reading, it was on one of these lists of like, you know, a hundred books you have to read before you die. I was reading The Old Man and the Sea. Do you remember reading that? I read it in high school. 

Yeah. Okay. Ernest Hemmingway.

I had just finished reading that book. And it's funny because one of the things that's fascinating to me is when you start interpreting one story through the lens of another, and all of a sudden it's like some of the symbolic elements come together and you go, oh, okay, now I see what this means. 

JR: Yeah, they're parallel to each other.

David: Yeah, so I had this experience when I finished the book, The Old Man and the Sea, because what is the old man? He's a fisherman first of all. Right? And what does he do? He goes out to the sea and he wants to catch what is it, a marlin that, know, it's [00:39:00] almost tormented him his whole life. It's the big one, right? 

JR: Right. 

David: In that story, the sea is the old man's wilderness. He has to go out into the unknown to encounter his dragon, say. 

JR: The chaos. monster, right? 

David: Yeah. The chaos monster; the monster of the deep, right? He has to go out there and encounter it. I had this interesting experience when I was done and I was also reading this story 'cause we're preparing for it. And I suddenly just saw the parallels. There's the ocean that represents chaos. And you will see the ocean start to represent chaos as this story unfolds. But also that's where he meets his dragon, the monster. And the monster is an obstacle, but the monster also promises treasure. And of course the story of the old man and the sea is he catches the marlin but he can't get it to shore. 

JR: Right. <So> the sharks eat it. 

David: Yeah, in some sense he has, what? He has fulfilled what he wanted to do. He faced his demons, so to speak. But, in the end he doesn't get the gold.

And it was funny 

JR: Yeah. The treasure isn't his. Right.

David: Yeah, treasure isn't [00:40:00] his. So, it's a very compelling story from that way. Also very descriptive, which I thought was very parallel to this story as well. 

JR: Yeah. The description of the roiling sea, the, foaming and the That progression I thought was really interesting.

David: Alright, so it was just an example of, I think seeing the parallels. After I get done reading a book on Goodreads, I read what other people thought too. I read good ones and bad ones. And there was a one star review on Earnest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea. And the person actually said I don't understand the point of this.

Why didn't he just go get some food down the street? Like, why does he risk his life to, and I was like, you really miss the point of all this, didn't you? 

JR: That's what happens when somebody who has no idea what he's reading leaves the comment, you know?

David: Totally missed the boat on that one. 

JR: Yeah. Well, just in general, if you're gonna give a one star review to Ernest Hemingway, at least run that by a buddy. Somebody who knows a little bit about literature, you know? Let's rethink this.

David: Alright, so that's the sea in this story, I think. And it [00:41:00] brings me to the third element, and there's a further parallel here, which, and this is not obvious, it's almost kind of confusing the beginning, but the flounder, right? 

JR: Right, yeah. That caught me off guard. The magic flounder.

Yeah, there's a little bit of, this is that absurd element that we talk about. It smacks you, you know, you're like really a magic flounder. You know, I don't know. It just seems absurd.

And when you see something absurd, that's the point. The point is to dig a little bit. This is probably a very common fish local in Germany. Maybe it was what the locals caught in that time. So maybe there's a little bit of a historical connection to the local people at the time.

 But as soon as I saw the flounder comes up and starts talking, well, that's shocking right away. But then the fact this flounder can grant wishes. Every time they go back to the flounder, I just kind of chuckle, I'm thinking, huh? A magic genie flounder. Okay. This is strange.

David: And that's where the parallel comes in to again, The Old Man and The Sea. 'cause he's chasing the marlin, right? The marlin is this, and again, he describes the purple streaks on the [00:42:00] back. It's a majestic creature, right? And then you come to this story and it's a flounder, like the most unimpressive of fish.

And yet, I think in an odd way, I think they represent the same thing. And you kind of hit on it just now, when you said the magic flounder: is in the wilderness, what do you encounter? You encounter the mythical creature, right? Or the magic creature. 

And this story, it just happens to be a flounder. But it starts to make a little more sense to me when you see it in that light.

JR: Yeah, and at first glance, the flounder seems like just maybe even another enchanted creature. It's sort of like the prince is a frog, right? The prince is under a spell. Right. But then it quickly takes on the role of this supernatural force. Then it has the power to grant wishes.

I don't know, once you read it a couple times, I see the flounder as sort of divine power in this humble form. I think it's intentional because to your point, you could have chosen a more majestic sea creature. You could have chosen a shark or a whale or a marlin, right?

But there's something [00:43:00] about a flounder. A flounder is a silly looking fish anyway, right? That's the flat one, right. With both eyes on one side of its head, you know? So it's like, it's sort of a crazy looking fish. And I think there's something to this sort of, this divine power in humble form. The prince that presents as a frog initially until, the princess can understand who and what it is. The princess has to accept the prince in his frog form before he comes the prince. Right? And there's something about the flounder. You almost have to accept this lowly silly looking fish before you can get to experience the supernatural abilities that he has.

David: Yeah, there's definitely something to it like that. I'll also just say The Old Man and The Seawould not have been the same if the old man had to go conquer the great flounder of the deep. 

JR: The great flounder. Yeah. He comes back with this, four pound flounder and everybody's like, yeah, so what? Don't you see? This is the largest herring that anyone's ever caught.

David: Wait, this is your nemesis? This is the great adversary you've been talking about the last 20 years. It's [00:44:00] a flounder.

JR: Yeah, it's funny guys at work that are fishermen, and I'm not a fisherman. But a guy says, man, I had a great day on the lake. I caught a brim the size of your hand.

And I was like, okay. You, you know, what, what does that help me out here?

What is it? And apparently that's big for a brim. You know, it's a big old brim. They're small fish, but it's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like that idea of, you know, Hey, I caught a goldfish. I'm telling you he was a full pound. And you're like, I guess if you know goldfish, that, you know, that's a big goldfish.

But otherwise, I'm kinda lost there. But yeah, so to your point of the unimpressiveness of the flounder, I think is intentional. 

David: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Alright, is there any other big symbolic element that jumped out at you or should we just jump into the story? 

JR: Yeah. That's kind of it. And otherwise it's, the repetition of those three, maybe four elements. Then I mean, I guess you could say the other thing you notice is where they live. They live in a hovel. And then of course, the progression of that. So I mean, I wouldn't call that really a character, but it is a symbolic element of we're going to progress [00:45:00] from a hovel to a house, to a castle, that type stuff, you know.

But yeah, we can just kind of jump into the specifics of what these mean or what we think these mean.

David: Yeah, so right off the bat, the story, we're told that there was once a fisherman and his wife, and they lived together in a hovel by the seashore. And it's important they call it a hovel because it could be just like a quaint little house by the sea.

JR: Right.

David: But that's not idea what is, being described here.

In fact I listened to something else that said in the German language or in this originated, that that word is almost like a derogatory, we would say it's a dump today. 

JR: Yeah. A shack. 

David: Yeah, so it's no mistaking that this is is kind of a quaint, little cottage on the sea. This is a hovel, right? It's a little shack. 

JR: It even says that the wife says it is an evil smelling hovel. Right. So it's not just, it's not just a shack or something like that. It stinks which points out, well, let's clean some stuff up, you know, but maybe it's by the ocean. Maybe it's by the sea.

If you've ever been to kind of a wharf where they bring fish in, [00:46:00] it does kind of stink. So, it's clearly not just a nice little ocean house. It's a complete dump. The area stinks, and so Yeah. The wife points that out.

David: That's right. And it sets the tone because the picture you almost get is that the husband is, and this is gonna play out throughout the story, the husband, the fisherman is almost content with this. You know, you said your buddies go fishing. People I know go fishing. It's like, man, if they live by the ocean, they could live in cardboard box and they're happy, right?

As long as they get to go fishing every day. And you almost get that image that that's the guy, right? Hey, you know, life's good. I go out to the seashore and I go fishing every day. And meanwhile, she's stuck in this, in the hovel that stinks, right? 

It stinks of his fish that he cleans up. And so understandably so, we're going to see this tension right away where he seems to be pretty content with life and she wants more out of life - and understandably so at the beginning as well, right?

JR: So in the first interaction, he comes home and tells her, Hey, I met this [00:47:00] talking flounder. And her first thing is, did you not ask him for anything? Did you not wish for anything? And he's like, and the guy's like, well, no, I never even thought about that. And of course she's just pulling her hair out thinking, here we are in this stinking hovel.

 And you didn't think to ask for something a little bit nicer. Right? And that's where we start out. You know, it starts out, well go back to him and ask for, I think it's a cottage, you know, let's ask for a reasonable cottage. Let's see if he can pull that off. It's easy to look at this story and say, yeah, this is a story about an uncontent wife and she's just torturing this poor husband of hers that she's never happy, never satisfied.

And there is that element of it, but it's also, don't miss the fact that you've got this husband that is sort of, I don't wanna say good for nothing, but he goes out every day, he fishes clearly most nights he comes home and he hasn't caught anything. And so, so he sort of, yeah. Did you catch anything?

No, not today.

David: Yeah, the well-known words of anyone married to a fisherman. Yeah. Did you catch anything? No, of course you didn't. You know. 

JR: Yeah, he's kind of this image [00:48:00] of a guy who has a hobby that claims it's a job. You know, we've met those guys. You know what I mean? I've said that before to people. It's like a hunter, right? I'm putting food on the table for my family.

And you're like, dude, you didn't shoot anything last year. That's not a job. You, you know, it's a hobby and we all need hobbies. That's great. But don't present your hobby as a career, right? And that's what he was doing. That's what kind of what he represents.

David: Yeah, I think that's right. It's easy to miss at the beginning. Through the story, she's going to become the overreaching spouse, but at the very beginning, it's clear that she kind of has every reason to be upset with him. 

He's almost overly contented with life. So we get this first interaction, and I do want to hit on this real quick, that he catches a flounder. But the flounder says to him, "Fisherman listening to me, let me go. I'm not a real fish. I'm an enchanted prince." And it's funny because the whole idea of the prince doesn't really, it's another aspect that doesn't really figure into the rest of the story. Because at the end, I would expect the prince to go, Hey, it was me, the [00:49:00] flounder, you know? 

But he just kind of says he's a prince. But, there's no evidence to it except for the fact that he begins granting him these wishes. I just think it's an interesting take. And yeah, to your point, he comes home and he almost doesn't think twice about it. You know, you think today if you caught a fish and the fish said, "Hey, let me go. I'm really the president of a small country." You might throw 'em back. You know, you might go, Hey, okay. 

Even if 

JR: Yeah. But you also might think about the leverage of it. Right?

David: Yeah, it's almost like you're, okay, one of two things. Number one, if he's enchanted Prince, you didn't ask for anything. Or number two, you're a fool because you caught a flounder and you bought the line that he was an Enchanted Prince. Either way, it's like you blew this. 

You almost get the idea of this passive. He's like, well, he said it was a prince, so I let him go. It's like, really? 

JR: Yeah. There is something that, what is it that life just happens to this guy? He responds to life. He never really, does anything proactive. And so here's this kind of interactive, [00:50:00] you know, he's just like, all, he said he is a prince, so I'll let him go. 

David: Alright, so then we get this progression. Now we'll hit the progression because the wife immediately says, why didn't you ask him for something better? Instead of this evil smelling hovel, why don't you wish for a little cottage? Right? 

JR: Mm-hmm. 

David: And so he goes

JR: Reasonable request. 

David: Yeah, reasonable request. He goes back, and this is where we start to see the description of the sea. And I wanna get your take on this because it says when he went back, the sea was green and yellow and it wasn't nearly as clear. 

But <Yeah.> he does fish or he calls out to the flounder. So he has this phrase that he repeats. " Oh man. Oh man, if man, you be, oh, flounder, flounder in the sea. Such a tiresome wife I've got, for she wants what I do not." So that's what he says every time. And the flounder swims to the surface and says, what does she want? And he says she wants a cottage. And he says, go home. She has it already. Okay. So that's the first cycle here.

So what do you see about the [00:51:00] sea changing colors? Like it went from a calm seat to now it's a little yellow, green, not as clear. 

JR: And obviously this progresses as the story goes on, to where it turns black and, I don't know, I, the best I could think of was it's something about this is a mirror of his own heart maybe. There's something about the sea represents the husband's maybe shame or guilt of having to go back and ask this flounder for something more. 

You know, at the beginning it's simple. Look, he didn't ask for anything and so he let him go , but then he comes back and asks for a cottage. So the sea kind of reflects the fact that he's a little bit ashamed for asking, I hate to do this. You know what I mean? Let's say you found somebody's wallet and you were like, oh, I think it's this guy over here, and you take it to him, and you know, if it's just an average guy, the guy says, Hey man, thanks a lot, you know?

If the guy turns around and it's Elon Musk, or the guy turns around and it's Jeff Bezos, you know, you know, I don't know. There'd be part of you that's [00:52:00] like, oh wow, it'd be nothing for this guy to pull out a couple hundred bucks and say, Hey man, thank you for bringing this back to me. Here's a couple hundred bucks. Right? You, you just couldn't help but think that. And so I think that, maybe we're ashamed in thinking that way, that if it were a regular guy, I wouldn't expect anything. But the fact that it's somebody that's wealthy, billionaire, maybe there's part of my brain that says, Hey man, maybe you can throw a few bucks my way for going outta my way and bringing you your wallet. Right? 

And I think that maybe, the sea represents the fact that the fishermen is a little bit ashamed of having to come back and say, Hey, I hate to do this. And obviously that progression gets worse and worse and is reflected in the sea. So something like his conscience maybe.

David: Yeah, I think somehow it's a reflection of his conscience, which again, I think it's important to see that this first go round that's more his own baggage. <Right> 

There are times where, you know, I've seen people, or you know, I've experienced this myself where I don't know, think of example, like. You know, at dinner it's like, that's not what you ordered. Send [00:53:00] it back. Right? 

Sometimes my wife will say, 

JR: Right. 

David: let me flag the waiter down. Lemme send this back. And I'm like, Ah, don't bother. 

JR: Yeah. I'll don't worry about it. It looks fine. Yeah.

David: She's like, but you hate that. I'm like, it's fine. I just don't want to, you know, and it's like, Hey, you have reason to send this back, right? 

But yet in my own conscience of that example, it's like my conscience is a little pulled. It's like, man, just ask sometimes. You know, just ask if you wanted something different. Just ask. Find your voice. And I almost think this first go round, yeah, it represents his conscience. I agree with that. But it's almost like he's trying to find his voice. It's more the timidity, and his passiveness. Whereas as this progresses, there's definitely a tie in between, he knows what he's doing isn't right. And the sea is darker and stormier. 

And so you definitely have that tie in. Yeah. 

JR: Well, that's what I was gonna ask you is, does the flounder come across to you maybe as some kind of cosmic balance? He doesn't say much. [00:54:00] The flounder just sort of passively, yep. Go home and it's there, right? But the sea always gets darker. So maybe there's an understanding of the more absurd the request, the darker the sea becomes.

So it's a little bit more abstract thinking, but seeing it as some sort of mirror of a cosmic balance, you're asking for too much. The sea is getting more and more restless. It's like the natural order is more out of whack, out of balance, something like that.

David: Yeah, if you see the sea as chaos, but also opportunity. Okay, there's definitely a balance there. So the more I think about the flounder, I actually really like the character of the flounder. He becomes the star of the show to me. 

The idea that it's an enchanted flounder, it's about picture capturing a mythical creature in the wilderness. It's like, on one hand there's an opportunity there, right? There's gold somewhere. But on the other hand it's like, you gotta be careful because this thing can turn around and maul you, right? 

JR: Right. Well, yeah. It's the dragon. Sure. The chaos. The chaos agent.

David: I do think it's something about that tension [00:55:00] and the wife gets it right at first. She says, you captured an enchanted flounder and you didn't ask for something. Almost anyone can agree, that's a reasonable thing. Like take a risk. You know, you have this enchanted creature. But then it becomes, man, you're playing around with this thing and it's gonna hurt you, right? It's gonna turn it on you. It's something like that.

JR: Man. Okay, so I don't wanna get too far ahead of myself, but the way you just described that, at some point this story becomes a story of this kind of what husband wife interplay, a power dynamic, a power struggle. And it's easy to look at it as, okay, this is an overbearing wife.

 She's never satisfied. This poor guy has to go back to the sea, the flounder and ask for more, more, more. But when you said it that way, it's a better understanding of this marriage interplay of take a risk, provide for your family, go out on a limb. 

Don't be reckless. Don't be the guy that puts your life savings in some TV ad that, promises get rich quick. [00:56:00] So don't be reckless with it. But at the same time, let's not always be so tight-fisted. Let's not try to save every penny. 

To succeed, you're gonna have to take a risk. And maybe that is kind of what this represents. And of course the sea being chaos, I like that image that it's almost like the chaos is rising. So at the end, when he goes back and the sea is just roiling and it's black and it's been drawn away almost like there's a tidal wave coming then you can see, okay, this is no longer the wilderness providing opportunity.

This is the wilderness only providing danger because of what you've created. You know? And so it, to that balance of take a risk, yes. Get out there. But don't be absurd. Don't ask for too much out of life. Don't try to cheat your way to the top. That's too risky.

You're gonna end up in jail. It's a little bit of that idea. 

David: We when we finish the story, we'll definitely have talk about that angle 'cause it's definitely there. It's definitely there. This is the interplay between, you know, husband and wife. You can talk about interplay between two [00:57:00] people, friendships, whatever you wanna talk about. But it's definitely some kind of, you might say, power dynamic going on. And it's hard to not jump ahead too. But yeah, that's definitely there. 

JR: Again, this is a repetitive story, and so of course there's a tendency to run to the end because it's repetitive. You see this pattern building, so it's kind of like the tidal wave building getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

So yeah, we will kind of jump around about this, but I don't know, you can see it all through it, even at the beginning.

David: Yeah, we'll put a pin in that though 'cause we're definitely gonna revisit at the end and talk about that very thing. Okay, so we've talked about this progression, this pattern that keeps happening and there's a couple more things I wanna point out. And then we won't go through each one of these patterns, but it is present from the very beginning and it's intentionally repeated. So one of the things I highlighted in my book here, one of the things that says is he goes home and there's a nice little cottage, right? Beautiful bedroom, kitchen stocked, a little backyard, like life is good. And they live on the ocean. It doesn't say the stink is gone, but I'm gonna assume the stink is gone too, [00:58:00] right?

JR: Well, if you got better walls, the stink doesn't come in the house, maybe.

David: So, a pretty nice little setup now. But here's part of the cycle. "Look," said the wife. "Is this not nice?" "Yes." Said the man. And what he says is interesting. "If this can only last, we will be very well contented." And then her response is, "we will see about that." Now, both of those responses are very interesting to me. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: His response is, "if this can only last." It's almost like even just a little bit of what you get a little break in life and he's like, ah, this isn't gonna last. It's almost telling of the way he views the world. Right? 

JR: Or maybe the way he views his wife.

David: Well, true. Well, maybe he's 

JR: You know what I mean?

David: Yeah, that's true. I didn't think of that.

JR: Well, it, it, it could definitely be an interplay, you know, between both of them.

David: Yeah, because his response is, this is never gonna last. To your point. he may be talking more about his wife than just, you know, a little bit of good luck comes his way. 

But her response is, "we will see about that." So right off the bat, a [00:59:00] little bit of discontentment in her, even though they've just had a nice upgrade from the hovel they used to live in.

JR: Yeah. It is interesting that, if you get a new vehicle or whatever, if you move into a new place, my first response is not, well, we'll see how long this lasts. And my first response is also not you know, we'll see if this satisfies me. Right? I mean, it's like, everything kind of becomes normal, after a while.

It doesn't matter whatever your status is. And maybe that's a kind of a commentary on the fact that everything becomes normalized. If I gave you a brand new Ferrari, well, in a couple years, it's just the car you drive to work. You know, it's like you need new tires and you're like, oh gosh, I gotta get tires on the Ferrari. Right? Everything becomes normal and everything sort of, I guess, becomes blase if that's the way you view it. So it is interesting that they both realize that this isn't gonna last, right? It's like they both realize it right off the bat.

David: Yeah, in some ways I think they are both acting out of their extreme personalities. 

JR: Yeah.

David: So he's [01:00:00] content you know, sitting in a hovel that smells like dead fish, right? He's content. And his response is we'll see how long this lasts, you know?

JR: And It's almost like I don't expect much more out of life.

I don't deserve anything better than this. Right? 

David: What is looming around the corner, right? And you know, people like that, you know? Hey, congratulations. Oh, that's not gonna last. We'll see how long that lasts.

JR: Yeah. Mr. Negative. Yeah. 

David: Just enjoy it, right? 

JR: Just accept it and enjoy what you got. Enjoy the steak that's in front of you. Don't worry about tomorrow night. Just enjoy the moment a little bit. Right.

David: She finally gets you know, she's got a better life now. And her response is, well, we'll see about this. 

JR: We'll see if we can't squeeze a little bit more out of this orange. Right.

David: So then, and this is important too, 'cause it says a week or a fortnight went by the wife said, look here, husband, the cottage is really too small. And you see the pattern over again. 

JR: So it lasted a couple weeks. 

David: Yeah, it lasted a couple weeks. And in these cycles you'll see that couple of weeks shrink down to [01:01:00] overnight, which is another interesting part of the pattern, I think. 

JR: Oh, I never caught that. Is that true?

David: Yeah, Everytime it's a little shorter. It's a little shorter.

JR: Yeah, how did I miss that? Okay. Okay. That's cool. No, those are the elements that I love to find, the shrinking element of less and less time. How did I miss that? Well, good call. I'm glad you pointed that out.

David: Okay, well yeah. That jumped out at me, because the last one, it says she doesn't even sleep that night. When she goes from emperor to basically, God, it points out she doesn't even really sleep that night and the next morning. And I was like, okay, she's not content with anything anymore. 

So, 

JR: Even the most lavish of upgrades is not satisfying, which is a great, man, that's a great image. Any lust of any type. And you can fill in the blank here. It's just the more you get, you know, like the dopamine hit drugs, all these things that we chase after yeah, they kind of have this dulling effect. Where more and more and more, what's the term, the drug term? Is it chasing the dragon? Isn't that it?

David: I don't [01:02:00] know. 

JR: You're not a drug, you don't know drug culture any better than that? Yeah, I've heard that somewhere is chasing the dragon. Basically, you're always chasing your first high. And so addicts, that's what you're always hoping for.

Apparently the first time you, take some of these, I mean, it just, is the greatest feeling ever. And the rest of your life, you're chasing that. So yeah, a little bit of chasing the dragon type of word there. . Okay. So that's interesting. 

David: Okay. So, we'll continue on with the next cycle. The wife says, go back and find the flounder, basically, right? And he's reluctant. He didn't wanna do this. And he said to himself, it's not the right thing to do. Nevertheless, he went.

Now, here again, so that's his conscience, right? I think we said, like, that's his conscience. But then he goes to the seaside and the water's purple and dark and gray, not green and yellow, as before. 

 So he says the line to the flounder. The flounder comes up, says what does she want now? Says, the man's a little bit frightened, but that he said she'd like to live in a large [01:03:00] stone castle. You know that house you provided for us, that was good for a couple of weeks, but now she really has her eyes set on a castle, right? And the same thing happens.

JR: Yeah. 

David: The flounder says, "Go home. It's already done."

JR: Mm-hmm. And then you have this descriptive imagery of this castle of everything being what? Marble, it's not just the castle, it's everything in it is a huge upgrade, right?

David: Yeah, and there's several paragraphs describing the castle and the, the countryside. And I think there might even be servants in this one. All of a sudden the servants appear, right? 

JR: Right. Yeah. Servants appear and so it progresses up really, really fast. You know, to your point about if this were the third progression, I would say, oh yeah, this is the top one. Look at this. They've got servants, they've got a throne, they've got jewels, right? It's not just merely this empty stone castle. 

But yeah, again, we're just starting, we're just getting started.

David: Yeah, we're getting warmed up. So, it says the next morning the wife was awake first, the break of day, [01:04:00] and she looked out and she saw the beautiful country lying all around. She lives in this castle now. The man took no notice of it. Now that's interesting. That's another thing, like we're seeing the two extreme natures right. She looks out and she's like, man, what a beautiful place we live in now. But it says the man took no notice of it. And don't know. That's the first time I actually saw that phrase is just now. 

JR: Well, do you think when I read that, I'm thinking maybe it's a little bit of all this is going on in our own heads. You know what I mean? Like that's the dual nature of all of us is that one side always wants more and another side of us, it doesn't matter what we have, it's almost like, yeah, we take no notice of it.

I don't know. I it What do you think about that kind of this idea that this is all kind of the split nature of everyone, that this is kind of every man's battle inside maybe.

David: Yeah, I could see that battle going on in every person. I also just think it's his extreme nature. He's skeptical of the little [01:05:00] cottage and it's almost like, you know, when you get something nice, it's almost like, I don't wanna get attached to it it's just gonna break, you know? And I'm not gonna be able to afford another one. 

So, you know, it's almost like he took no notice of it. It's like, don't get attached. This is all an illusion. I could almost see. Okay, so here's where I thought you were gonna go with what you just said. 

It's almost like this is going beyond the fairytale. It's almost like you could ask if any of this is real, right? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: It's almost like if this were a sci-fi show, the question in the background would be, is this real? And it's almost like, I think the man is going, man, a magical flounder. I keep asking for these things and they appear. It's almost like I don't really believe any of this is real. 

JR: Oh, well, okay, so you see the absurdity when you see the throne. And I think it's the crown. The throne is what, two miles tall? The crown is a mile tall. It's just this , this overreach of absurdity that, again, you [01:06:00] know, if you are thinking of it in any literal terms, you're thinking, well, how do you even wear a mile?

What good is a mile a two mile throne? Right. You can only set your butt in, you know, one square foot. Right. But yeah, it's so absurd again, 'cause we say when the absurd should be a big red X to start digging here, but also in this case, it's almost like the absurd is so outlandish.

It's almost, maybe, what you're saying is that it's trying to present itself as absurd. Meaning that it's not real. Meaning that this is all going on in his mind. You know, that it's more about the way he views it, as opposed to what really exists. 

David: Yeah. I can see how in his mind he thinks all this is an illusion and you know, maybe she's enjoying it. Maybe she's quickly discontented with everything, but there's something about like, he's not engaging in it. Yeah. I don't know.

JR: Yeah. He refuses. He refuses, to acknowledge the reality of it. And she dramatizes the reality of it maybe. 

David: [01:07:00] Yeah, again, yeah, the two extreme natures of both of them. Something like that.

JR: Yeah. Kind of back and forth. Okay.

David: The third cycle starts and she says, husband, get up. Look out the window. Look, just think if we could be king over all this country. Now that's another interesting phrase there. 

Now this is another progression I noticed. She says initially we could have a nicer house, then we could have a castle. Now she's saying we could be king, but from here on out, the next one jumping ahead, she starts saying, "I", right? 'Cause it's no longer we could do this. It's like, I could be this. 

But it is interesting, she says we could be king. You could read into this, I think you brought this up earlier before we hit record, but it doesn't say you could be king and I could be queen, right? She says, we could be king. 

JR: Yeah, you're right. This is not just concise wording. This is very intentional. We could be king. And again, I'll jump ahead in the next progression. Yeah. Not only does she say, I - is the next one, the emperor or the [01:08:00] pope?

The emperor's next. From here on out, these are very also not, unintentional. These are very intentionally typical masculine roles. So the king, the emperor, the pope, those are all men. And she's wanting to assume that what she's wanting to basically put on the role of the masculine in the marriage.

David: You could argue that he's not stepping up to any of these roles and therefore she feels the need to step into them herself. There's something like that going on.

JR: Right. Oh, no, no doubt. Yeah. Don't look at this as simply, man, this is a nagging wife. This woman would drive me crazy. You have to look at the balance of it, the interplay of it. 'cause what would also drive you crazy is a husband that refuses to step up and assume any leadership role at all.

You know, he's happy with not catching anything. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: He's happy coming home to a stinking hovel. Right? Well, what woman wants to be married to that guy? Right?

So, no, it's definitely about the tension between two extremes.

David: Yeah, so we see the [01:09:00] same progression then. He goes back, the water now is dark gray and it rushed far inland and had an ill smell. That's an interesting description of the water now. 

So clearly now, he says again, this is not right to do. He's definitely understanding that this is overreach. To go back to that idea of battling the beast in the wilderness. He knows he's pushing his luck here, right? 

JR: Right. right. But he still never says anything to his wife.

David: No, he just passively does, you know, well, okay. The 

JR: I mean, he, she, he pushes back a little bit. Yeah. He'll say something like, oh, I can't do this. I can't ask him for more, right? But then out the door he goes, right?

David: Yeah, so now he says she wants to be king and we see the same thing. He goes home, she lives in this huge kingdom. Now she is the king. We talked about this throne. And he says, "well wife, so now you are a king." "Yes," the wife said, now I am king. And he stood and looked at her and we had gazed her for [01:10:00] some time.

He said, "Well wife, this is fine for you to be king. Now there's nothing more to wish for." So again, it's easy to pick on the wife in this scenario, but again, he's totally abdicated any kind of role in this relationship. Well now it's fine for you to be king. There's nothing more. I'm gonna go out and go fishing again. Right? 

That's kind of his attitude. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. If you look at this as kind of , you know, we've all seen this relationships where there's a dominant personality and a passive personality. And all that is fine I don't know if you recognize the value of both of those and you see the good in both of those types of personalities. But if you have somebody with maybe not even dominant, maybe you can think of it like as a dramatic personality.

 If you know a really dramatic person, there's a tendency for the more dramatic that person gets, the less dramatic I'm gonna get. Right? I'm gonna pull the other direction. And before long, you're so far apart that you don't even know each other. [01:11:00] Right? it's sort of that dynamic going on also.

David: Yeah, they're reacting to each other. And I think to kind of piggyback on what you're saying is that when you have, let's say an outgoing person and an introvert or a dominant personality and a more passive, that 

JR: Right.

David: works, fact it's probably pretty common. It works if the two learn to respect each other and also to actually know their limits. Like, so the passive person has to understand when they need to have their voice, right? 

JR: Right. 

David: You might say, the more outgoing person needs to understand when they're going beyond the bounds of whatever is comfortable for that relationship. Maybe that's not the best way. 

JR: Right. When they're pushing things too far, right? Yes.

David: I think when those two things are present. When they both understand that they have a voice and they're both respect the limits of the other, then it works. And it works beautifully, right? Clearly that's not happening in this relationship.

JR: Yeah. And the more we dig into this, the more I'm thinking. Yeah. This is [01:12:00] all just about the interplay between really any relationship, but specifically a marriage, kind of understanding each other's strengths, weaknesses, and seeing somebody for, I don't know, seeing, we say that opposites attract.

And it doesn't mean that somebody should be opposite to you, in every respect, but , what we're saying is that when somebody's the opposite from you, you can actually pull to equilibrium that together, you know, maybe the outgoing person can pull me out of my shell or vice versa, right? You know, so you can see the advantage of it.

And so, yeah. The more I read about this, more, this is just so clearly about just kind of everyday relationships and the interplay and the dynamic between it.

David: I picture a medeval marriage counselor saying, there's a Grimms' fairytale I want you guys to read. 

JR: Let me tell you this story, right?

David: Then go home and they read it and have a fight, you know? It's like, what are you saying? Are you saying I'm the one who wants to be God? Well, ah, ah, I'm just saying. Well go fishing.

JR: I'm saying I'm not. 

David: Just [01:13:00] withdraw. Take your fishing pole and go fishing. Cause a fight.

JR: I'm saying you wanna be the one who, yeah, wants to live in the stinking hovel your whole life. That you're satisfied with that.

David: That's right. Yeah, 'cause it is. There's actually, yeah, it could be a marriage manual almost. That's true.

JR: Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. So we keep going 'cause we're not to the end yet. You know, she, she she's emperor and now she wants to be Pope again, this traditional masculine role. She not only wants to be king, I wanna rule everything around me. Now I want to be Pope, which is something like what I want the religious title as well.

David: Well, you have to remember that, all throughout medieval Europe, what was the one position greater than the king? It was the Pope. 

JR: Right. 

David: And so from that standpoint, it made sense. What's bigger than emperor? Well, it's the pope because that was the reality at that time. 

JR: Right. 

David: The role of the Pope in medieval Europe was God's anointed to [01:14:00] direct the kings of the Earth. Right? So that's the whole Henry VIII thing, right? That the English king breaks with the Pope because he actually didn't want to be under the Pope's authority. So that's just a little bit of context. It makes sense that let's say, if you're discontented with Emperor, what's the next step up? 

Well, it's the pope, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. Yeah. And then he says to her, well, wife, I hope you're contented at last with being Pope. You can be nothing more, right? He's like, this has gotta be the top of the hierarchy. And of course, her common response is, yeah, we'll see about that.

David: Yeah, we'll see about that. Every time, yeah. 

Okay. And so then the last cycle, ' cause then going on where you were reading says she was as far as ever from being contended. 

JR: Right. 

David: Which to your point, you know, I have the picture of sometimes these athletes sign a hundred million dollar contract. 

And I think to myself, man, <Right.> If I had a hundred million dollars, I would never work again. I would just do whatever I wanted to. I would be content. Right. 

But the truth is I probably wouldn't. <Right. [01:15:00] No.> It's just our nature. 

JR: Yeah. There's something about contentment that says, I like where I'm at, and I can still work toward, you know, what, toward retirement. There's something out there. And I think, there's a parallel between the fact that the United States is the richest country in the world and also has the highest suicide rate.

And we've, mentioned this before, that third world countries don't deal with suicide. And part of it is because I think you get to a certain spot and you think that the new house or the nice car, or the great job that that's gonna bring contentment, but you find out that it doesn't, and then you're stuck.

Especially if you're a Hollywood type or a celebrity who has millions of dollars in the bank. And you look around, think, you know, this doesn't make me hap if this doesn't make me happy, what in the world possibly can, you know? And, you become depressed. So, yeah, you're as far the more you gain if your heart isn't in the right place, you're right. The most uncontented you could be is [01:16:00]when you have everything and you're still not happy.

David: Yeah. And she is clearly not content. She's had everything she could ever imagine and she's clearly not content, and this is where it describes that she could not even go to sleep for thinking of what she would like to be next. She hasn't even been Pope for 24 hours. 

JR: Right, right. So I wonder if part of this is saying that she wants more, more, more. And what she really wants is her husband maybe to to what, to be one with her. Maybe she just wants a happy marriage and she's trying to fill it with all this, you know what I'm saying? It's almost like to go back to the extreme of the dramatic person becoming more dramatic.

And that just forces the passive person to downplay everything, you know? Well, the dramatic person just gets louder and louder and louder trying to evoke a reaction, some kind of reaction out of the other person. And the more they do that, the less that other person's is just, you know, basically asleep on the couch.

[01:17:00] You know what I mean? And maybe, maybe it's just like this kind of, we're growing further apart and maybe that's what's driving the discontent, right? I don't know.

It's a layer to it.

David: Yeah. There's kind of that psychoanalytical layer where maybe she's saying, well, if Emperor doesn't get his attention, maybe Pope will. ' cause every time he's just totally checked out, he's asleep on the couch, like you said. He goes about his day, he goes fishing, and so, you know, she's like, well, if this isn't gonna get his attention, I don't know what will.

Maybe it is kind of a, you know, to jump ahead. Maybe it is that whole had he stepped up. and been the proper, what husband, when they had a nice little seaside cottage, maybe she actually would've had some contentment in her own life.

JR: Right. Yeah. Maybe what she actually wants is for him to step up and go out and get a normal job and, let's maintain this life. But instead, he goes out and takes what the easy way out. He just goes and asks the enchanted, the enchanted [01:18:00] flounder for more and more, more, right?

I dont' know. Maybe it is something like that.

David: Yeah. 

JR: Okay. But in any case, she obviously is not happy being Pope, so there's really nothing above that. Except for Right.

Except for it. It, they don't explicitly say. Right. Yeah. It doesn't explicitly say that she wants to be God, but she does say that she wants to what to make the sun and moon rise, you know, well, what, what is that if, right.

Sure. There's nothing more than being God himself. Right.

David: So, short of saying, I want to be God myself. Yes. That's what she says. You know, I want control over the elements. I want control over nature. The sun and moon would rise at my command. So this is where the story culminates, because she said, go ask the flounder, tell the flounder that's what I want. 

JR: Real quick. I gotta say, 'cause remember you said at this point she doesn't even sleep through the night, right? Like it gets shorter and shorter. You know, the duration between wanting more, it just gets shorter and shorter. Well, it's funny 'cause she can't sleep through the [01:19:00] night and it says, the man was so fast to sleep. Like she wakes up and it says the man was so fast asleep that he started up and he fell out of bed and then he shook himself together and opened his eyes. So it's almost like as her satisfaction gets less and less, his apathy gets more and more. Right now at this point, he's just completely asleep.

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out. Again, it's just not the progression of the woman, it's also the progression of the husband that should be seen kind of, that they're running two different directions as fast as they can.

David: So he goes off, this is the last one. Again, the ocean now is a dreadful storm that he could hardly keep his feet. All the houses and trees were being blown down the mountains trembled like this is quite the storm. He can barely stand, which should tell you right there. It should tell you you're pushing your luck too far, right? As you approach the sea, if it's basically a hurricane landing, this not maybe the best time to go tap the flounder on the shoulder again. 

I [01:20:00] don't know, do flounders have shoulders? 

JR: This is not, yeah. Right. This is not the opportunity that the wilderness typically presents.

David: He fears his wife more than, he fears almost the wrath and chaos of the sea. 

JR: Yeah, yeah. There's that aspect of it too.

You're going to meet this enchanted creature that can basically do anything, yeah. And you're more afraid of your wife. And we all know guys like this too, that would rather, you know, go to the electric chair than to deal with, to deal with their wife Right. Than to push back a little bit. My goodness. And it's not just, I don't want to say you know, your wife. It can happen, husbands also, you know, the passive person, the extremely passive person would rather have their fingernails pulled out with pliers than to push back a little bit than to make a stand. And that's kind of, yeah. This is the culmination of that, right?

David: So for the last time. He does his little saying, "oh man, oh man, if you be or flounder, flounder in the sea." Right. And the flounder now, it's funny 'cause the [01:21:00] flounder's like, well now what? It's like, oh are, are you kidding me, right? I've given you everything you've ask for. 

JR: No kidding.

David: Oh dear, he says, she wants to order about the sun and the moon and this is the last line and it's great. 

He says, go home with <yeah.> you, says the flounder. You will find her in the old hovel. And there they are sitting to this very day. That's a great ending. Not a happy ending, but it's a great ending to this story. 

JR: Well, it's a great ending because this progression seems to just drag out longer and longer, and you're like, oh my gosh, how many times are we gonna do this? And then the very last one, it's almost like the rug is pulled out from under you. It's like, Nope. And end of story. You know what I mean?

David: Very abruptly, yeah. That's true. So it's really interesting 'cause you said this idea of maybe it drags out on purpose because maybe the reader's supposed to, you know, or they're telling the story and so you're listening to this in some tavern somewhere, right? In Bavaria. 

And 

JR: Right, right. 

David: as the listener, you're supposed to go, what on earth more could she want? [01:22:00] Right? When is he going to stand up? When is this gonna end. Maybe it's supposed to bring you to that point. And as quickly as it gets you to that, all the other times, you know all the descriptions of what she ends up with next. The descriptions of the sea, the founder just says, Nope, go back to your stinking hovel. 

And they live there. 

JR: Yeah. Game over. 

David: That's it. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I think the abruptness is supposed to be, in contrast to the length of the narrative dragging out longer and longer. The descriptions are longer every time. The absurd size of the throne, the size of their crowns, everything just gets absurdly large.

And then it's just so abrupt at the end. Nope. Go back to your hovel; game over. That's it. You know. The end. 

David: I think that's intentional. 

JR: Yeah, I know. I think it is too.

David: So yeah, that's the story. 

JR: Yeah. Well, what do you get out of this? I mean, we've kind of been digging into it, different narratives. It's funny as we talk about it, I'm sitting here thinking well, I'm thinking several [01:23:00]things about the dynamic of every relationship. And you just see it play out.

Again, this is about the third time I've read it, and every time it gets a little bit better, partly because you know how it ends. But once you know how it ends, then you can pick up on all these little elements all along the way. Like, I really never noticed, how did I not notice that the duration between her wanting something else got shorter and shorter, you know, and, and again, you can just see these, I don't know, these timing elements.

What seems like to drag on forever and what seems to end abruptly. I think all that, I mean, that's all through it. It's in the narratives. I don't know. There's just timing all through it, now that I see it.

David: Yeah. The cycles are similar and it takes a couple readings to actually pay attention to what's happening in each cycle. That it's repeating, but it's building. And you're right. I think it was a good way to say it. The last one, he would really rather basically go fishing in a hurricane than go back to the [01:24:00] castle and confront his wife.

JR: Yeah, exactly. And as much as they tell you that, it's like, okay, we get it. This is a lavish castle. Okay, we get it. This's even more lavish, right? As much as you tire of the descriptions. It's like at the end it's like, well, what happened? 

I mean, I wanna know what happened when he went back home. I wanna know what she thought about, you know, I, it's like you want the comeuppance, right? You want the, you want the I don't know, you, it's, in some ways it's a unsatisfying ending because you want this absurdity to kind of fly back in their face. And it obviously does. They go back to the old hovel. But it's like, well, what did they think about it? How did they respond to it? And you don't get any of that, right?

David: That's true. And in that sense it almost is the anti-fairy tale.

Because you'd like to think, well, okay, what was that conversation like when he went home? Right. 

My 

JR: Yeah, you pushed it. I, told you. 

David: Yeah. My first thought was, did she leave him? But then it says they're sitting there to this very day almost pointing to the idea of neither of [01:25:00] them learned anything, right? 

Because if they had come home and said, alright, let's just talk about this whirlwind that just happened to us. 

JR: Right. 

David: What can we learn? Maybe I should be a little more assertive. Well, maybe I should be a little more satisfied. But it's like, no. I think it's interesting that they make a point of saying they are sitting there to this day, neither of them learned a thing.

JR: Yeah. And in that way, you're right. It's absolutely the anti fairytale. There's always a lesson to be learned, whether good or bad, you know? But you're right. These two are just sitting there. It's like, That's great. That's a good observation. Yeah. They're still sitting there, he's still happy living in the hovel and she's still pissed off about it, you know? Been there for 300 years now.

David: Yeah, she just accepts that I'm gonna live in this stink hole the rest of my life. 

JR: Yeah. I get this image. You see this every once in a while. The old couple at Cracker Barrel that set across from each other, and you notice that they've sat there for an hour and a half and never said a word, you know, and it's like, [01:26:00] wow. Is that what I have to look forward to? Yep. They're sitting there to this very day.

David: And they still haven't said a word. 

He grumbles about how his food is cold. And she says, you never take me anywhere other than Cracker Barrel. Right? That's the 

JR: same pattern, man. 

David: culmination of their existence.

JR: Yeah, that's great, man. So what do we get out of this overall? I mean, we've obviously rambled about this for an hour, but what do we get out of this? You know, what are the deeper ideas?

David: Well, so the obvioius one is, you know, don't be greedy, don't overreach. 

I think we've really talked about how this is almost a relational therapy session. in this case it's the passive man and the overreaching wife. But like we've said, let's modernize a little bit.

You know, it could be any kind of interpersonal relationship. And I think to some extent, like every couple, you know, you see power dynamic where one is content with life, and the other's like, okay, so you want a spouse that sees your potential, right. 

And it's it's a good [01:27:00] thing for the spouse to be able to see, you could do so much more. But it's a fine line you might say, of saying, you know, I just want, other people to see what I see in you. And I wanna see the talent and you could do more. It's that fine line between going beyond that. And that's where we talked about understanding the boundaries of saying, no, you're not gonna be content with that promotion now 'cause you can do more. And the other one's like, oh gosh, are you serious? 

And you see that play out in relationships. 

JR: Yeah. I think Jordan Peterson talks about how it's something like the word for wife or woman in the Bible kind of denotes this idea of a beneficial adversary. You know? Have you heard him say that?

David: Yeah. He's actually talking about that idea of the wife in Genesis being the helper. 

JR: Right? Yeah. The help meet, that's right. That's what it was

David: Yeah, that's the term. 

JR: Yeah. Well, it's a better translation to say a beneficial adversary, which is a really interesting idea of what you were saying about. You know, you want your spouse to call out the best, you [01:28:00]know, let me know when I'm being a bonehead. But at the same time, nobody wants to be nagged every tiny thing, all day, every day, right? And so yeah, it's finding that balance of calling out the best in someone, but being that beneficial adversary. I think that's a good, a descriptive way of saying it.

David: That's right. And I think you can also look at it from what your own perspective of saying, you know, whether it's a spouse or whether it's a friend or maybe it's children. I mean, look, you can do this with children too, right? 

Say 

JR: Sure, sure. 

David: I want the best for my children. I want to call out the best in them that they can't even see. But then you also see the kid in college who can never live up to mom and dad's expectations, right? 

 And the same thing happens. They withdraw. Sometimes they even self-sabotage. You know, they're the fishermen that says, man none of this is real. You know, it's all just an illusion. 'cause it doesn't matter what I do

JR: I'll never satisfy mom and dad. Right? 

David: That's right, so its the same dynamic even in that kind of relationship.

JR: Yeah. In narrative form, the [01:29:00] feminine mother loves you where you're at, and the masculine father loves what you could be, right? And you have to have both of those to your point of children. You have to a) know that you're loved unconditionally, but also know that I could be more than what I am right now because who peaks at 18, right?

I mean, please tell me I've got the potential to be more right? And if, all you have is sort of the mother behind you saying you're perfect the way you are and, you're wonderful then you don't strive for anything more. And if all you have behind you is the father who's never satisfied, who just says, well, you know law school's nice, but you could have been a doctor.

You know, it's like, come on man. You just constant, you never feel like you can measure up. And you have to have that balance between those two things. And that's why, you know, we always tie this into a biblical concept. That's why God's love kind of encompasses both of those things together, right?

The perfect mother and the perfect father. I love you where you're at, but I certainly love what you could be also. And it [01:30:00] captures both of those things. And so anyway, yeah, it's just one of those things of masculine and feminine and narrative. You see that. 

David: That's a good call out because I think the ideal of that kind of dynamic is actually captured in the love of God, because I've run into people that basically God's love to them just accepts everything the way it is, right? 

JR: Right. 

David: I'm imperfect, but God loves me. I know I have struggles over here, but God loves me. Right? 

And that's true. But like you said, that's only the feminine, you might say. That's like the divine - well, this might upset some here. I'm gonna say that's the divine mother part of God, right. 

But, 

JR: Right. 

David: But God is Father, right? That's like that aspect of him, but it's not the divine father part of God. That part actually says, I created you to be something more, right? 

I didn't mean for you to just exist in your sin and your shortcomings. [01:31:00] I want something more of you. And that's the Divine Father part of that, right?

So yeah, I think that's a good call out. I didn't think of that aspect.

JR: Well, it's just the duality that we are on one hand, filthy sinners. We're described in all this disgusting, descriptive language on one hand. But then we're children of kings. We're princes and princesses, right? on the other hand. How do you keep those two things together? Well, in a narrative understanding, that's what it is. It's in one sense you are an image of the divine. And in another sense you have a long way to go. Like, we can't even come close.

The best person doesn't even measure up an inch. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's, it is just that kind of tension that you see all through the Bible. So this fairytale kind of captures that idea a little bit.

 Yeah. And that's one of the things you see in these stories. It's so hard to do it nowadays, you know, to say that something is masculine or something is feminine because people take this kind of political idea that I'm trying to put women in a box or men in a box, and that's not it.

[01:32:00] That's not what you see in narrative. But, it's this idea that in narrative, that you have a masculine narrative and a feminine narrative, and that's not trying to say that all women are this, or all men are this. It's saying that from a storytelling aspect of it that are feminine and masculine elements, right? That are kind of inside all of us, but they are expressed as one or the other. You've noticed that, right?

David: Oh yeah. Well, another aspect of that is that, again, traditional storytelling is masculinity represents order, and I think we talked about this last time, right? the king. The king represents order. 

The feminine can sometimes represent chaos. And think of the wicked stepmother. Think of the witch. But it's also not always bad. 'cause we've talked several times about chaos presents opportunity. So okay, so that's interesting. So this another dynamic that the fishermen may represent the extreme. We've talked about the extremes, right? He represents the extreme [01:33:00] masculine, in terms of order. Okay, not in like masculine in terms of, maybe aggression. 

JR: No chaos and order. I think that's the way to see it. Chaos and order that he is.

David: He is almost overly ordered. His life set every day. He gets up, he gets his fishing pole, and he goes to the ocean, right? 

JR: Same old, same old. No growth.

David: Yeah, and what's the result? Well, he lives in a stinking hovel, and he's okay with that, right? 

And the feminine represents chaos. And so she represents the extreme version of this feminine chaos, which should have pushed him out of his hovel. But in the extreme version, it's nothing but chaos, right? It's more and more. 

JR: Yeah. You're right. 

David: And so, you do see these masculine and feminine roles, almost kind of, both of those have their good points, but you could almost see these at their extreme worst. manifestations of them, right? Him and his hovel and her just causing chaos in this world because nothing is ever good enough.

JR: [01:34:00] Right. And order and chaos doesn't mean, you know, 'cause there's tendency to see order as good and chaos as bad, and that's not the way it should be understood. It's that both of them are bad in the extreme, okay? If you live such an ordered life that everything that you expect to happen to you happens to you, then it means you're not growing.

It means you're not pushing yourself in any reasonable way. It means you're just kind of stagnant and you're just sitting there. Right? And then of course, on the other side, if there's too much chaos, it means that nothing is going your way. It means that I can't, I mean, it's just complete random chance every time I step out of the door, right?

What happens to me? And so it's like your life is so chaotic that there's no foundation, there's no center, there's no flag at the center, so to speak, that you can build around. And so both of them have their good and bad points, but yes, you're right. I forgot all about that, that the masculine is always a representation of extreme order and the feminine, it seems to be a representation of extreme [01:35:00]chaos, and that plays out perfectly in this fairytale.

David: Alright, there's one more thing I wanna end with and then we wrap this up. I'm going back to our, okay, point 7. It's like no three points. Anyway, 

JR: We need to take our own notes.

David: Yeah. 

JR: Take our own advice, stick to three points, and move on.

David: That's right. Alright, so this will be quick. But wanna throw it out there because it did help me see, because I like the flounder and I was trying to figure out the flounder, right? Because we never know what really happens to him, but he seems to have all this unending power, right? So I thought about Philippians chapter two. There's this idea of the humility of Christ, right? And there's this poem in Philippians chapter two that says, even though he was God, he did not think equality with God is something he needed to grasp, right? But, he descends. We talked about this in our Philippians series. I'll put it in our show notes, right? 

He descends and becomes a human, which if you're divine that is a step down, right? But not only human <Sure.> he becomes a servant, a [01:36:00] slave, right? So here is this simple, you might say, slave born sometime, you know, in Israel, around three BC or something like that. Just a simple kid. But he has all the divine power available to him, which only starts to manifest in little bits and pieces, right? 

But he's kind of trapped in, trapped is maybe not the right word because he does it voluntarily. Right? He's limited to this human form. Now, what does all that mean? it actually helps me, and you can say, I'm push this one too far.

It actually helps me understand the flounder. Because, the flounder says I'm actually a prince. Right? And clearly the flounder has extraordinary power because every time the guy asks for something, he goes home and it's manifested itself, right? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: So clearly, you might say clearly he says he's a prince. Clearly he has all this, you might even say divine power. And here's the interesting [01:37:00] part. What is the request that pushes the flounder too far? It's to be equated with God and the flounder says,

JR: Yes. 

David: No, no, no. You've crossed the line. Now. I don't know?

JR: Yeah. No, that's, that's interesting. I like that. No, it does. It helps me too. I mean, I think I said

David: Yeah, flounder right? It's the lowest, it's the bottom dweller, right? 

That's another way to think of the flounder. It's the thing that sits on the bottom of the ocean. It's not a majestic shark. It's not the beautiful marlin, like the Old Man and The Sea. It's the lowest you can get basically. 'cause it literally lives on the bottom.

JR: If This were an American fairytale, it'd be the catfish, you know, just the bottom, the mud sucker. Right. You know?

David: Yeah, that's right. Live down in the muck and you what? There used to be TV shows about catfishing, you know, like you'd go actually pull these catfish out of the hole. 

But, yeah, it's something like that. And that picture actually helps me understand who the flounder is in this fairytale.

JR: Yeah. That's good. I like that. Well, I think I said at the beginning, divine power and humble form. That's what [01:38:00] Jesus represents. 

David: That's right.

JR: Yeah. I like that. Well, another theological undertone that I got out of this is kind of from a Christian lens, the flounder could represent what God's permissive will, rather than his directive will, right? The flounder allows the wishes to be granted, but not because they're good, but it's almost like a way of revealing the corruption of the human heart. Right? So, so, I think it's in Romans where God, what gives them up to their desires. <Yeah, right.> Isn't that Romans 1? 

Yeah, so even in Romans 1:21 think about the sea, the ocean, how it just got darker and more corrupt, we can say. In Romans 1:21, it says, their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. And so it kind of has that, I don't know. It has that idea of the flounder grants, the wishes not to reward, but to expose, right?

It's the flounder, obviously more than a . Yeah. It's more than a magic fish. He's the story's embodiment of something like [01:39:00] divine justice, right? Not only divine justice, but divine restraint.

He doesn't punish the wife directly. He doesn't punish the family directly. He simply lets her reach the natural end of her greed. Right. Which is to return to the very beginning. Right? That his power basically kind of reveals the true characters of both the husband and the wife of those who ask.

David: Yeah, there is a bit of divine what? There is a bit of divine permissiveness going on with the flounder, because at a certain point you go, this is absurd. Why does a flounder keep granting wishes? But it wasn't until you just said that, that that actually makes sense.

It's like, I'm giving you over to your own devices until you figure this out. And then the end of the story is they don't actually ever figure it out, right? 

But the request too far is the request to become like God.

JR: Yeah. An Old Testament parallel would be the what in Samuel, the Israelites asking for a King. Samuel says, look, we don't need a king. We have God. Right? But they demand a king, and [01:40:00] so God grants it, right? And then of course, all the chaos that ensues from all of that. It's almost like he allows the request to be made to expose the people. You know, 'cause again, at first reading, you're thinking, man, what is this flounder doing?

Why is he just, why is he not at least pushing back a little bit? Why is he not telling the man, Hey, this is not a good idea. It's gonna end badly. Right? He just kind of calmly and passively says, go home, and it'll be that way. Right. And it almost kind of drives you crazy. You're like, man, somebody say something.

If, if not the husband, then maybe the flounder is gonna talk some sense into the husband. But no, nobody says anything. But yeah. It's all to expose the character of both the husband and the wife.

David: And it's just, a humorous picture once you see that of the character in the story that had it most together is actually the flounder. <Right.> you know? 

JR: Oh, well, you know, I could have told you that one. Yeah. Right off the bat.

David: Yeah, I don't know if you remember our dad, we used to watch Green Acres. This is way back, and it featured a pig. They had a pig, and our dad used to say, the most [01:41:00] intelligent person on that show is the pig. 

So it's kind of like that. 

JR: No, that's right. That's a throwback. Yeah, you're right.

David: That is, reaching way back.But its kind of the same thing. It's like, man, the character in this story that actually embodies what, like divine wisdom is actually this flounder. And there's a little hint of that when it says, I'm an enchanted prince you know, who's under a spell? 

Yeah. I think that's actually really fascenating.

JR: I like that. Well, I also like how you pointed out the flounder is the lowest of the low, because in my mind, well, it could have been a goldfish. You know, I can see now why it's not a shark or a marlin. But why a flounder, well, a flounder really actually makes perfect sense now.

It's the only fish that makes perfect sense because it really is the bottom dweller. There's nothing lower than the flounder, right?

David: Yeah, and yet all this divine power and all this divine wisdom is kind of trapped in this lowest of the low, like this bottom feeder, right? 

JR: Yeah, man. There's some pretty cool theological undertones once you get to digging a little bit and looking for it. Right?

David: Well, you never know [01:42:00] where these fairytales will take you. 

JR: I know. Well, somehow they always take us to something like this, you know, and it takes us a couple hours, but we get there eventually.

David: Alright, so that was the third one in this series, I think. Next episode we are going to do a fairytale called The Brother and the Sister. 'cause there's a lot going on in that one.

JR: Yeah. This is an interesting one. I'd encourage the listeners to go out and read that one, find that on the internet. That's an interesting one. But yeah, so read ahead homework. There you go. Read The Brother and The Sister. It's great.

David: That's right. Start reading ahea and start forming your own thoughts. And if you wanna share some of those thoughts, you can email us. You can go to our website. I threw an article on our website also, and you're certainly free to make comments on the article.

That has to do with, you know, the ancient wisdom that are found in fairytales. There are ways to reach out to us and what's been fun is after Little Red Riding Hood, we had some people reaching out and making some of their own observations too. [01:43:00] So that's been fun as well.

JR: Yeah, it is been great. Well, these stories just can go a hundred different directions, so I love to hear everybody else's insights because there's a lot of stuff we miss. So yeah, leave us a comment: Navigating An Ancient Faith.com. Go read that article. And there you go. We will see you next week.

David: Be a flounder next week. 

JR: Be a flounder.

David: Be the flounder. Come on.

JR: Be the flounder. 

Alright, let's put that on a bumper sticker. We're gonna have shirts on the merch store. 

David: Hey, Jordan Peterson's like, is Hey, be a lobster. You know, ours is Be a flounder.

JR: Be a lobster. Be the flounder. Okay. Yeah, I like it. There you go,