Ancient Stories: The Nix of the Mill Pond

In this episode of the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast, we dive into the haunting Grimm tale The Nix of the Mill Pond 🌊✨. We follow the story of a desperate bargain 🤝, a lost son, and a long journey back to love and wholeness ❤️. Along the way, we explore themes of generational curses, marital trials 💔, and spiritual transformation 🌿. From the golden comb to the flute 🎶 and spinning wheel 🧵, we unpack the rich symbolism behind each enchanted object and what it reveals about alignment, ritual, and divine wisdom 🕊️. Join us as we uncover the deep moral and spiritual insights hidden in this powerful fairy tale 📖.

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Read 📖 the article, The Wisdom of Ancient Stories

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Chapters

• 0:00 Four Questions to Undersand Fairytales
• 13:46 The Nix of the Mill Pond
• 27:50 The Symbolic Elements
• 31:40 The Foolish Bargain
• 47:04 The Nix's Claim
• 1:00:17 The Comb, The Flute, and the Spinning Wheel
• 1:25:45 Surviving The Flood
• 1:40:32 Recognition and Reconnection

Transcript

The Nix of the Mill Pond

David: [00:00:00] We're jumping ahead, but it says the shepherd pulled the flute out of his pocket, and it's like, well, why does he have the flute?

Yeah. He took it from the underworld. 

JR: Where did he stick it when he was a frog? Answer me that mythological master. 

David: Yeah. Okay. So that's the bonus question. Right? That's our, our listeners, if you can answer that question. tell us. Yeah. How he hid the, there's an old joke in there somewhere.

Yeah. But yeah, answer that riddle there. Where did he put the flute while he was a frog. That's hilarious. 

So I was watching a documentary the other night. My wife wanted to watch it. I dunno. Have you seen the documentary it's on Amazon Prime, and it's a documentary about Nashville songwriters. 

JR: Oh, okay. No, that's right. Up the road from, so no, I need need to watch that. 

David: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. My wife wanted to watch it and I was like, well, okay, we can watch it. And in a lot of ways it was really inspiring.

I really enjoyed it. But, you know, all these songwriters, there's an entire [00:01:00] industry of songwriters behind all the songs. <Mm-hmm.> You hear, right? Because a lot of artists don't write their own music. <Right.> And so it's just a fascinating look behind all these names that you probably never heard of.

Some of 'em have written for years and they're just trying to get that one big hit. And there was one songwriter that he's got 21 number one hits to his name. I'm like, well, okay. That guy knows what he's doing. <Yeah.> And yet you've never heard of him. <Right.> You know what I mean?

JR: But he's a master storyteller.

David: There was a story. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And all he wants to do is write. And that seemed to be a common theme. They're musicians too, but most of 'em, they're like, I just wanna write songs, you know? Yeah. I don't even gotta record 'em. I just wanna write 'em.

So there was this one interesting story that this guy, and this was a while ago, and you'll know when you hear the song, and he was not selling any music. He's not selling any songs. This is all he wants to do though. And he had called his dad and said, you know, I think about giving up, I'm might move back home. And he said, no, no, son, you're doing what you're supposed to do. He's like, don't stop [00:02:00] believing and hung up with his dad, you know? And the guy goes, Hey, that's a catchy lyric..

JR: There you go. That's uh, 

David: And you already know. 

JR: Sure. That that's all you gotta say. That's right. 

David: Right. Yeah, sure. One of the most iconic hits of the eighties, Don't Stop Believing by Journey. Yeah. So he write song.

JR: Yeah. But I was, I was thinking a country song, but Oh no, clearly not right.

David: Journey, yeah. Yeah. So it's, you know, and I think someone even rejected it got passed around and then someone, his agent called and said, Hey, you know, the band Journey wants to try to record this? And there you go. Don't Stop Believing. That's where we get it. 

JR: Yeah. The rest is history.

David: Isn't that interesting?

JR: Yeah. That's pretty cool, man. Yeah. Well, it's just that iconic sound, but yeah. You need the story to go behind it. 

David: Yeah. And it just took that one little phrase and that guy ran with it. And yeah, I like interesting stories behind, you know, all the songs and the bands and all stuff like that. But actually it was a really inspiring documentary.

JR: So I have to check that out. Check it out. Okay. What's the name of it? Or do you remember? 

David: It's something, no, I don't remember. I should just Googled it.

[00:03:00] It all begins with a song. 

JR: It all begins with a song. There you go. I just found that one. Okay. 

David: Yep. It all begins with a song. That's what it's called.

JR: Okay, cool. Yeah. I'll add that to my list.

Yeah. Well that makes sense. 'cause a great story is captivating. It grabs your attention. you know, it's funny that country music especially really fixates on the story. It wants a good story. I'm sure there are nonsensical country musics songs, you know, but it's not like rock where it's, some of it's just the beat and it's the electric guitar, things like that.

You gotta have a good hook and a good story. But yeah, to kind of what we're doing with all the fairytale stuff that ties in pretty well. 

David: Yeah, that is a tie in. I didn't really have a purpose behind telling that story. I just thought it was an interesting story. But now that you say it, yeah, I guess that's the tie in is the good storytelling.

And of course, we're in this series on good stories, right? The fairytales. So today we're going to do a great one. I think you and I both.

JR: Oh man. It's my favorite.

David: Said repeatedly. We enjoy this one. It's called The Nix of the Mill Pond. <Yeah.> And we will walk through [00:04:00] this fairytale, but before we do, we've been doing a little bit of introducing symbolism in fairytales, how to interpret fairytales as a wider idea of look, how do you interpret, or how do you read things like Greek mythology, how do you read parables in the Bible?

Or a lot of the Old Testament stories that have a lot of these elements, right? Right in them. So I was thinking about this and kind of tying together a lot of the things we've been talking about. You know, when you, at least one way I learned how to study the Bible, as you are reading a new book of the Bible, right?

Say you're sitting down, you're gonna read Psalms, or they really lend themselves to Paul's letters in the New Testament. So there's questions you ask before you start, which is, who wrote the book? I don't know if you've heard this, who wrote the book? Who was it written to? When was it written and why was it written?

Right? And if you can kind of answer those four questions up front, then it provides a little bit of context for what you're about to read. Right? And so I was thinking about that in terms of [00:05:00]fairytales. 'cause I was thinking there's almost a list of questions that you could come up with that almost apply to any of these Grimm's fairytales.

So we can just run through them real quick. But I thought it'd be helpful to say, here's some questions you should ask or could ask if you really want to understand a fairytale, first of all, what's the status quo state? Right. Or what's the current state? Okay. Every fairy tale, right. Seems to say, here's the way things are right now.

JR: Right. 

David: So, yeah, I thought it's good to just clarify that. And in fact, you and I were talking a little bit beforehand and we started talking about the status quo state. Right. <Yeah.> of the one we're gonna talk about. <Yeah.> And I didn't really think about it that much because it sets the table and then you get into the story and you kind of forgot this is the way things were.

But, so, okay. So that's the first question. What the status quo? 

JR: Well, I think we mentioned what status quo. Yeah. I think we mentioned before about that when you journey to another kingdom, it's not just the next city over. It's usually a different way of thinking.

You've gone over to something else and have changed [00:06:00] the way you think and it's either better or worse, And then a lot of times you move to the other kingdom. So it's kind of different states of mind a little bit. your current state is a certain way of the status quo of it.

And then most fairytales are about transition, about, obviously it's about a lesson. <Sure.> And it's whether we learn from it and live happily ever after. Or like the fishermen and his wife, we don't learn from it. And there they sit to this very day. You know what I mean? 

David: Yeah, that's right. 

JR: Yeah. Okay. So that's a good first question. Alright. What's the second one? 

David: Okay. Second one is, what's the triggering event or what's the event that prompts a change in the status quo? Right. So every fairytale almost has, everything's going along fine or maybe not going along fine. And then something kind of intervenes in the character's lives and is going to prompt some kind of transition or change, right? <Okay.> So what's the triggering event? Okay. So go back to the fisherman and his wife. The triggering event is he catches this [00:07:00] enchanted flounder.

JR: Yeah. The magic flounder. Okay.

David: And you could just go through all of them and say, here's the triggering event, right? <Right.> Okay. So the third one, and we've said this almost every time, where is the wilderness? <Yeah.> And we've talked about how the wilderness represents chaos, but it also represents opportunity. And it is interesting to me that in almost every one of these fairytales we've talked about, there is a sense of there's a wilderness out there that someone has to traverse.

JR: Yeah. Well this is the hero's journey, or every Marvel movie. <Yeah.> Has that moment where, you know they get the new power and whatever Spider-Man can do his spider stuff, but it's almost like they don't know how to use it. And so they kind of fumble it around and they do some good, but they also don't quite know how to harness the power.

And they almost win, but then they get in their own way and they kind of fall back to the ground and then there's this kind of, this renewed understanding of their purpose. And now they can really fight evil, you know?

Yeah. They never just go out and [00:08:00] fight evil and win. Evil kind of has to knock 'em down a peg. And that whole process is the wilderness. That's going out in the wilderness, that's facing your dragon. And it's that learning aspect of how do I harness this new power? And so yeah. That kind of represents that. Right. 

David: Yeah. And I think these probably very much mirror the hero's journey, but yeah. So where's the wilderness? We talked about the sea in the last episode, right? That was the wilderness, right? Little Red Riding Hood. The wilderness was the forest that the big, bad wolf lived in.

<Right.> You know, so in every one of these you can pick out the wilderness. Alright, so the next question then is what's the quest that must be undertaken? And this is, again, it's the hero's journey, right? <Mm-hmm. Sure.> Circumstances require that someone in the story has to kind of take this quest on that's gonna be difficult for them.

And we'll see that in today's story, right? Also. Okay. And then the final one would be how is society transformed? This is something else we've talked about as well, because once the quest is undertaken [00:09:00] and it's completed, or like the fishermen and his wife, it's not completed. Right? Like, how is society transformed, right? And so we talked about how a lot of times when the king marries the princess <mm-hmm.> That wedding represents a new society. <Yes.> Society has been transformed. 

JR: Yeah. A new start, it's not merely a wedding, it's a shift in the way you think and, yes, society starts anew. 

David: Yeah. So, I don't know, those are just, you could come up with a whole list.

I think in the hero's journey, there's like 12 or 15 man steps that you could probably mirror, but just as a simplified list. I thought that was kind of an interesting set of questions to say, alright, as you're listening to this story, think about these elements, right? 

JR: No, that's helpful. Because a lot of times you hear these stories and they throw you a lot of curve balls. Stuff come from outta left field, talking flounder, all these strange things happen. You're like, Where did that come from? But you're right. If you kind of have that general framework for understanding these stories as the story's being read, and you, you and I talked about this [00:10:00]last week you and I read these stories, five, 10 times before we come up with a lot of the insights that we have on 'em.

so we, kinda recognize that it's not fair to give the listener, first shot of this thing and, and then immediately <Yeah.> Like they're supposed to break all this down. But it is, helpful if you have that framework you can kind of follow along with.

Okay, this is not just the sea, this is the wilderness. This is his, you know, wilderness journey. And you're right. You can kind of follow along that way and it probably is helpful in kind of breaking it down as you go. 

David: Yeah. And I think a lot of these even apply to a lot of the stories you read in the Bible. <Sure.> Especially in the Old Testament. <Yeah.> I mean, think of like, well pick any Old Testament story, Jonah and the whale, right?

Right. You could go down these list of five questions and you could say, okay, what's the status quo? Right. What's the triggering event? Where's the wilderness? Well, the wilderness was the belly of the whale, right? <Mm-hmm.> What's the quest that must be undertaken? Jonah runs, but he has to face the call that God has put on him, right? <Right.> And then how is society [00:11:00] transformed? And I think it says Nineveh repented and at least that generation of Ninevites, you know, turned to Yahweh. <Right.> Actually, and Jonah's not very happy about it. 

JR: Right, right. But they avoided God's wrath. So, yeah. Society is transformed there. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't know, I thought that was helpful.

JR: No, that is helpful. I like that. Alright, so how are we gonna apply that to this one? I mean, are we gonna have to point these things out now? 

David: Well along. Well, I guess we can keep them in mind, but let's listen to it first. And yeah, let's have these in the back of our heads and as we encounter them in the story. We can point 'em out because I think these apply to most of them. All right. 

JR: Okay. So is there anything that you want to say before we listen to the Nix of the Mill Pond?

Anything you wanna point out? 

David: I don't know that it'll point out a lot. I'll just point out what a nix is because

JR: Yeah, that's helpful.

David: Because we may be sitting here going, you know, the Nix of the Millpond and people going, I don't, you know what, the New York Knicks

JR: Yeah, that's right.

David: They make the playoffs.

JR: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. When you read [00:12:00] it's, but what's a K Nix? NIX That's right. It's, it is NIX. Okay. 

David: And realize that most people are listening, so they're going, what are they saying? Nix I, what is this? You know, but NIX Yes, you're right. And sometimes it's referred to as a nixie. <Mm-hmm.> N-I-X-I-E. Right. But it's basically a water spirit.

And it's known as not being a very friendly water spirit. But back in those day or back in ancient times, a lot of natural things had a spirit associated with them. <Right.> Right. So, and Nix is a water spirit. It's kind of a malevolent water spirit as I understand it. Have you understood anything differently than that?

JR: Yeah, yeah. Sort of.

David: They're not very friendly.

JR: Right. A water fairy and usually kind of has a dual nature, meaning it's kind of an inviting, sort of like the sirens In the Odyssey. Right. That they're inviting, they draw you in, but then there's always kind of a bargain, the Faustian bargain that comes with it.

<Sure.> And that's certainly what we're gonna [00:13:00] see in this story. 

David: Yeah. So that's probably the main thing I would point out before we got started is just understanding what a nix is. 'cause even as you hear the story being read, it's gonna be talking about this nix or nixie or water nix. And so that's what that is referring to.

Anything else that you can think of to point out before we get started? 

JR: I don't know. I say this every time, but every detail matters. So if something, if there's a strange detail that you're like why was it that specific? Or why do you, you know, this didn't make a whole lot of sense. Make a note of that because it certainly plays into it.

And as far as I can tell, I mean, I think I've satisfactory, at least to my satisfaction, all the details make sense once you kind of plug in what this narrative is about. And so, yeah, pay attention to the details and enjoy the story.

The Nix of the Mill Pond

There was once upon a time a Miller who lived with his wife in great contentment. They had money and land and their prosperity increased year by year more and more, [00:14:00] but Ill luck comes like a thief in the night. As their wealth had increased, so did it again, decrease year by year. And at last, the Miller could hardly call the mill in which he lived his own.

He was in great distress and when he laid down after his hard day's work, found no rest, but tossed about in his bed full of care. One morning he rose before daybreak and went out into the open air thinking that perhaps there his heart might become lighter as he was stepping over the mill dam, the first sunbeam was just breaking forth and he heard a rippling sound in the pond.

He turned round and perceived a beautiful woman rising slowly out of the water. Her long hair, which she was holding off her shoulders with her soft hands, fell down on both sides and covered her white body. He soon saw that she was the nicks of [00:15:00] the mill pond, and in his fright, he did not know whether he should run away or stay where he was.

But the Nicks made her sweet voice heard. Called him by his name and asked him why he was so sad. The Miller was at first struck dumb, but when he heard her speak so kindly, he took heart and told her how he had formerly lived in wealth and happiness, but that now he was so poor that he did not know what to do.

Be easy answer. The next, I will make the richer and happier than thou hast ever been before. Only thou must promise to give me the young thing, which has been born just now in the house. What else could that be? Thought the Miller, but a young puppy or kitten, and he promised her what she desired. The Nicks descended into the water again and he hurried back to his mail.[00:16:00]

Consoled and in good spirits. He had not yet reached it when the maid servant came out of the house and cried to him to rejoice for his wife, had just given birth to a little boy. The Miller stood as if struck by lightning. He saw very well that the cunning, Nicks had been aware of it and had cheated him, hanging his head.

He went up to his wife's bedside, and when she said. Why do you not rejoice over the fine boy? He told her what had befallen him and what kind of promise he had given the nicks of what used to me, our riches and prosperity. He added if I'm to lose my child, but what can I do? Even our family who had come hither to wish them joy, did not know what to say to them.

In the meantime, prosperity again returned to the Miller's house. [00:17:00] All that he undertook succeeded. It was as if presses and coffers filled themselves of their own accord and as if money multiplied nightly in the cupboards. It was not long before his wealth was greater than it had ever been before, but he could not rejoice over it.

Untroubled for the bargain, which he had made with the Nicks tormented his soul. Whenever he passed the mill pond, he feared she might ascend and remind him of his debt. He never let the boy himself go near the water beware. He said to him, if thou does, but touch the water, a hand will rise, seize thee, and draw the down.

But as year after year went by and the nicks did not show herself again, the Miller began to feel at ease. The boy grew up to be a youth and was apprentice to a Huntsman when he had learned everything and [00:18:00] had become an excellent Huntsman. The Lord of the village took him into his service in the village, lived a beautiful and true hearted maiden who pleased the Huntsman, and when his master perceived that he gave him a little house.

The two were married, lived peacefully and happily. And loved each other with all their hearts. One day the Huntsman was chasing a row, and when the animal turned aside from the forest into the open country, he pursued it and at last shot it. He did not notice that he was now in the neighborhood of the dangerous mill pond and went after he had disempowered the stag to the water in order to wash his bloodstained hands.

Scarcely, however, had he dipped them in, then the Nicks ascended smilingly wound her dripping arms around him and drew him quickly down under the waves, [00:19:00] which closed over him when it was evening, and the Huntsman did not return home. His wife became alarmed. She went out to seek him and as he had often told her that he had to be on his guard against the snares of the Knicks and dared not venture into the neighborhood of the mill pond, she already suspected what had happened.

She hasted to the water and when she found his hunting pouch lying on the shore, she could no longer have any doubt of his misfortune. Lamenting her sorrow and wring her hands. She called on her beloved by name, but in vain she hurried across to the other side of the pond and called him a new. She reviled the nicks with harsh words but no answer followed.

The surface of the water remained calm. Only the crescent moon stared steadily back at her. The poor [00:20:00] woman did not leave the pond. With hasty steps, she paced round and rounded without resting a moment, sometimes in silence, sometimes uttering a loud cry, sometimes softly sobbing. At last, her strength came to an end.

She sank down on the ground and fell into a heavy sleep. Presently a dream took possession of her. She was anxiously climbing upwards between great masses of rock thorns and briars caught her feet. The rain beat her in the face and the wind tossed her long hair about when she had reached the summit.

Quite a different site presented itself to her. The sky was blue, the air soft. The ground sloped gently downward and on a green meadow. Gay with flowers of every color stood a pretty cottage. She [00:21:00] went up to it and opened the door. There, sat an old woman with white hair who beckoned to her kindly. At that very moment, the poor woman awoke day had already dawned and she had once resolved to act in accordance with her dream.

She laboriously climbed the mountain. Everything was exactly as she had seen it in the night. The woman received her kindly and pointed out a chair on which she might sit. Thou must have met with a misfortune. She said, since thou has sought out my lonely cottage with tears, the woman related what had her be comforted, said, the old woman I will help thee.

Here is a golden comb for thee. Terry here told the full moon has risen. Then go to the mill pond, seed thyself on the shore and comb thy long black hair with this comb. when thou has [00:22:00] done, lay it down on the bank and thou we'll see what will happen. The woman returned home, but the time till the full moon came passed slowly.

At last, the shining disc appeared in the heavens. Then she went out to the mill pond, sat down and combed her long black hair with the gold and comb, and when she had finished, she laid it down at the water's edge. It was not long before there was a movement in the depths. A ave rose roll to the shore and bore the comb away with it.

And not more time than necessary for the comb to sink to the bottom. The surface of the water parted and the head of the Huntsman arose. He did not speak, but looked at his wife with sorrowful glances. At the same instant, a second wave came rushing up and covered the man's head.

All had vanished. The mill pond laid [00:23:00] peaceful as before and nothing but the face of the full moon shown on it full of sorrow. The woman went back, but again, the dream showed her the cottage of the old woman Next morning, she again set out and complained of her woes to the wise woman. The old woman gave her a golden flute and said, Terry, till the full moon comes again.

Then take this flute, play a beautiful air on it, and when thou has finished, lay it on the sand. Then thou will see what will happen. The wife did as the old woman, told her. No sooner was the flute lying on the sand than there was a stirring in the depths, and a wave rushed up and bore the flute away with it.

Immediately afterwards, the water parted. And not only the head of the man, but half of his body also arose. He stretched out his arms longingly towards her, [00:24:00] but a second wave came up, covered him and drew him down again. A last, what does it profit me? Said the unhappy woman that I should see my beloved, only to lose him again.

Despair filled her heart anew, but the dream led her a third time to the house of the old woman she set out and the wise woman gave her a golden spinning wheel, consoled her and said, all is not yet fulfilled, Terry. And until the time of the full moon, then take the spinning wheel seat thyself on the shore and spin the spool full.

And win now has done that place, the spinning wheel near the water, and that will see what happens. the woman obeyed all. She said exactly. As soon as the full Moon showed itself, she carried the golden spinning wheel to the shore and span Industriously until the flax came to an end, and the [00:25:00]spool was quite filled with threads.

No sooner was the wheel standing on the shore than there was more violent movement than before in the depths of the pond and a mighty wave rushed up and bore the wheel away with it. Immediately the head and the whole body of the man rose into the air in a water spout. He quickly sprang to the shore, caught his wife by the hand and fled, but they had scarcely gone a very little distance when the whole pond rose with a frightful roar and streamed out over the open country.

The fugitives already saw death before their eyes. When the woman in her terror implored the help of the old woman, and in an instant they were transformed. She into a toad, he into a frog. The flood, which had overtaken them, could not destroy them. but it tore them apart and carried them far away. When the [00:26:00] water had dispersed and they both touched dry land, again, they regained their human form, but neither knew where the other was.

They found themselves among strange people who did not know their native land, high mountains and deep valleys lay between them in order to keep themselves alive. They were both obliged to tend sheep. For many long years, they drove their flocks through the field and forest and were full of sorrow and longing when Spring had once more broken forth on the earth.

They both went out one day with their flocks, and as chance would have it, they drew near each other. They met in a valley but did not recognize each other yet they rejoice that they were no longer so lonely. Henceforth. They each day drove their flocks to the same place. They did not speak much, but they felt comforted.

One evening when the full moon was shining in the sky and the [00:27:00] sheep were already at rest, the shepherd pulled the flute out of his pocket and played on it a beautiful but sorrowful air. When he had finished, he saw that the shepherdess was weeping bitterly. Why are thou weeping? He asked. Alas answered.

She thus shone the full moon. When I played this air on the flute for the last time and the head of my beloved rose out of the water, he looked at her and it seemed as if a veil fell from his eyes and he recognized his dear wife. And when she looked at him and the moon shown in his face, she knew him also.

They embraced and kissed each other. Yeah, and no one need ask if they were happy, 

David: Hey, we gotta say also thanks to your wife, Amy. 'Cause she's been recording all these stories. We were playing around with AI generated voices and trying to get those British accents. But you were saying [00:28:00] it just wasn't. In a fairytale, you have these conversations and different characters and an AI generated voice just wasn't capturing it. But it's been nice to have a motherly voice.

I was listening to one of our previous episodes today, and I just had to stop my work and go sit in my chair and, you know, listen to a fairytale. <Yeah.> Read by. <Yeah.> Your wife, so, you know. 

JR: Yeah. You just fall asleep. Your wife for doing that? No, she is a master. She's been doing this for well, she's an English teacher by trade anyway, but she's certainly read many stories to our kids and she's kind of known for doing the voices and, you know what I mean?

<Yeah.> Just really capturing the story, and you're right about the AI. I wanted to mess with that, and there were moments that the AI was really, really impressive, but it just couldn't capture dialogue, you know, when their speaking parts, things like that. It was all the same voice and it couldn't ever distinguish. It just felt flat, you know? It didn't quite work like we wanted. <Yeah.> But anyway, so yeah. She did a great job.

But yes, this is by far my [00:29:00] favorite fairytale. I've read it multiple times and I noticed something new about it every time. And it's one of those stories that once you understand what it's about, everything falls right into place and every detail means something.

Like I said. In the beginning, but I also like it just because it's just about life, man. It's about family baggage. It's about finding balance. It's about falling in love. It's about getting distracted with the busyness of life and then rediscovering the person you fell in love with, right? It's about all those things.

So yeah, it's about life. And so as we jump in, I don't know if you got that vibe from it the first time you read it, but the first time I read it, I certainly didn't understand all the details, but I got that kind of feeling like, man, this is about something.

Obviously the falling in love and then being separated and the being reunited at the end, it gave me that vibe like, man, this has gotta be about marriage or something like that. What was your first impression the first time you heard it? 

David: I think I had a similar reaction because the first time I read this, I remember it gripped me. 'Cause I was thinking there's a [00:30:00] lot going on here, right? But I didn't have a good grasp of what it all meant. You know? I kind of had this high level, I think it means this. But then when you start talking about the little elements and the symbolic elements here, we'll cover in a minute, I didn't have a good feel for that. But it pulled me in because I knew there was a lot going on in this story. <Right.> And I knew that there was a lot to unpack. <Yeah.> So that was my reaction. 

JR: Yeah. Well, and it was one of those things that I almost couldn't wait to reread. 'cause I'm like, okay, let me really dig into this. 'cause I know, you know, the symbolism of the comb and the flute and the spinning wheel, you knew it meant something, but , it wasn't really intuitive right away.

It didn't just like, fall in your lap. So you gotta do a little bit of work with this one. But man, this is a flawless story. This is a wonderful story once you kind of understand. So where do you wanna start with this? 

David: Yeah. Well, we usually start out by talking about just mentioning the symbolic elements. And we will just throw 'em out here for a minute. But I think this story really lends itself to just jumping in and talking about it, because [00:31:00] obviously the symbolic elements are what you just mentioned, the big ones. There's the comb, there's the flute, and there's the spinning wheel. <Mm-hmm.> And boy, those were head scratchers for me.

Like, you know, it's just so random. Set a gold spinning wheel on the shore. <Right.> You know, and you just go, what is that about? Right. So those are the symbolic elements. I guess we could also mention a reoccurring character, which is the old lady who represents what we said before, divine wisdom, right?

<Mm-hmm.> It's that connection to the divine. She has to ascend a mountain. So that symbolism is definitely very strong in this one, and I enjoyed that. Um, we talked about the nix. What else, or should we just jump in? 

JR: Yeah, I'd say, I, I say we just take it from the top. This kinda lends itself to where it kind of I guess it kind of lays itself out when you take it from the top. Not all of 'em do that. We were talking about that before. This is a good one because you really can just start from the beginning and start to unfold it. And when you dig into some of the elements right off the bat, it starts to make sense for [00:32:00]the rest of the story moving forward. So yeah. Starts off with a miller.

David: Yeah. And if we start with our question of what is the status quo, this story actually gives you a backstory, right? <Yeah.> And it very intentionally says, here's how these events came about. And this backstory is very important to understanding the rest of it. But yeah, like you said, there's a miller and he has a mill.

And I think you got more out of this than I did, because I tend to just, jump right into all these other elements, but yeah. So we have a miller and a mill. So what's going on with that? 

JR: Well, I kind of discovered that a mill worker in fairytales represents, and I didn't realize this, but it makes sense. It kind of represents a lack of resourcefulness, maybe a touch of laziness. Because mills in those days, you know, it's a water mill and, the river is turning the water wheel and then inside you use that force to whatever, to cut wood or whatever you're doing with it, right? They generate [00:33:00] electricity now, things like that.

But anyway, all the work was done by the water, and so the current of the river turns and powers the mill. So I guess it was considered, I guess you could say it was considered kind of the desk job of the old world. You know, you just kind of step back and let the, the water do the work. And you and I have desk job, so. 

David: Yeah. Sounds pretty resourceful to me. I'm not gonna lie, but I mean, yes. But yeah, I could see how it might be perceived as, everyone's out working in the field with their hands and you're just kind of kicked back watching the mill do all the work. I could kind of see that, yeah, before the industrialization of everything kind of took place and that became normal. 

JR: Yeah. And of course, I mean, when we look back at any job, I'm sure working in a mill was hot and sweaty work, things like that. But I think as far as our story is concerned, the mill represents something like unearned success, and to this story, it symbolizes kind of a life of inertia, right?

Letting the current do all the work. So the Miller isn't just lazy, [00:34:00] he's disconnected, right? That moment where he fails to realize that his wife, I know I'm jumping ahead here, but you know, that he fails to realize that his wife has given birth, is this crazy picture of just complete what, emotional absenteeism, right? You know, so it it plays into the, to the mill itself and the Miller, what he does. 

David: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. And so then to set the stage, so we have the miller in the mill and things were going pretty well for a while, right? Yeah. And then it said, "But ill luck comes like a thief in the night." I like that phrase.

JR: Yeah. I thought, it was cool.

David: And so then all of a sudden he hits a down streak. Right? <Right.> His wealth decreases for a while and he gets to the point one day where he says, I've gotta turn things around. So he goes out one morning, at the first Sunbeam, and of course you have the mill right next to the pond. That's where this idea of the mill pond comes in. <Mm-hmm.> And he turns around and he perceived a beautiful woman rising slowly out of the water.

And it describes this water [00:35:00] nix, and he recognizes her as the nix of the mill pond. <Right.> And she basically says, what's troubling you? Right. And so he says, I've been down on my luck. Things were good for a while, but I've hit a bad streak here. And she, makes a bargain with him. She said, "I will make the richer and happier than thou has ever been before. Only thou must promise to give me the young thing, which has just been born in thy house." Now, if that's not a setup for what's about to happen. 

JR: Oh gosh. Yeah. And so I wanna point out the water nix, and we talked about it before, you know, the water fairy, the water spirit, but yeah, that water in stories has always has a dual nature, right? It's it's understood it's opportunity, but it's also kind of disorder and chaos, right? A little water keeps you from dying from thirst, but too much of it drowns you. And so you can see this nix as a goddess of this balance, right? And that's pretty much the role she plays in this story. And so I just wanna point out this cool [00:36:00] connection between the Miller and the nix, because the water that powers his mill is the same water that this chaos monster lives in, right?

So it's like a two-sided coin. It does the hard work and actually provides power to the mill, but it also brings about this generational curse, right? And, so I wanna point that out because this, I think the beginning of this story, maybe it's throughout the story, but certainly the beginning is all about trade-offs, right?

It seems to be about that. There's several elements that point that out. 

David: And I'm glad you brought that up because we're talking about medieval times here when you often associated natural phenomenon with spirits behind them. Right? <Right.> So it actually, more, I think about, it's really interesting because it actually makes sense that if you're trying to harness something in nature, like the mechanics of a water wheel and using a stream or a pond to power it, right.

Or talking about harnessing fire maybe, or <Yeah.> Or something else, you know? <Right.> Like that. There is this sense in the [00:37:00] ancient mindset of as you're trying to harness this natural energy, you are also, you could say, making a bargain with the spirit behind it. <Yeah.> And so, I think you're exactly right.

The water nix actually represents this bargain with what would you say? This bargain with the spirit that he has leveraged to power his mill and only now kind of payment is coming due. Yeah. Something like that. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. It's the very thing that gives power to the mill. And so, it did, it took me two or three times to pull this out, but I never associated the actual water going through the water wheel with the water nix herself.

And that's where that idea, the balance comes from, and it all being about the trade trade-offs between those things. And so, it's interesting that the water nix is completely upfront with the Miller also. One of the characteristics of the water nix is that they're kind of like Loki. Like tricksters or, yeah, trickster, yeah. Yeah, there you go. That there's a bit of a trickster element to the water [00:38:00] nix, at least that's what I had read.

But in this one, I thought it was interesting that she's right up front with the guy, you know, he says, I'll make you richer and happier than you've ever been before, but you have to give me the young thing that's just been born in your house. So there's the trade off, that's the trade that's offered right up front is essentially prosperity for life, right? 

David: Yeah. And of course he makes this fatal assumption that, what else can it be? It's a puppy or a kitten. Right? So he says, sure, let's do this deal. Right? <Yeah.> Which is so like, I can't read this without going back to, is it Jephthah in the judges? 

JR: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

David: Who makes the foolish vow? <Sure.> You know, and, and he makes this vow to God and says, if you grant me the victory, the first thing that runs outta my farmstead will be sacrificed to you. You know? And it's the same attitude of what else can it be? It's probably gonna be a puppy or a kitten. Right? So, yeah. And sure, I'll do it.

And then his little daughter runs out, right? And he realizes like, what have I done? [00:39:00]<Sure.> And you get the same vibe in this story. I think that's really fascinating. 

JR: Yeah. But it kind of points to just this disconnect of what else could it be a puppy or a kitten? Right. But it's almost like, I don't know.

There's something more about this trade off of prosperity for life. It almost lets you know that the Miller doesn't see life as very important. You know? Or that he at least minimizes it and says, ah, you know, if it's a kitten or a puppy, who cares? Like that kind of sucks too.

You know, even if it was a kitten or a puppy, I'm like, okay, you're just gonna trade off your prosperity and just let something die. You know? That doesn't concern you in any way. It obviously turns out to be his son. But you know, even if it's not, I think it just kind of points to, I don't know, the shallowness of the guy, you know?

And we're gonna talk about balance moving forward. But yeah, that, already his life there's this imbalance. He values wealth too much 'cause he had it and lost it, and he's willing to [00:40:00] give up life, any life for it really. You know what I mean? 

David: Well, there's almost a hint in here too, and to go ahead and move the story forward. He goes home and his wife has given birth and it raises the question, well, did you not know that your wife was pregnant? <Oh, sure.> Or maybe, maybe she wasn't due for a couple months and she delivered early. You know, these are the kind of things in fairytales that you just kind of have to, it's the absurd element, right?

But there's almost a hint as you were talking of, it's almost like he may be even knew in the back of his mind, but this water nix, you know, these water nix are always this beautiful, almost seductive spirit of the water. And she's offering him fabulous wealth. I could almost see in the back of his mind, he's like, oh, even if it is a kid.

<Yeah.> You know? Yeah, that's, it might be this trade, right? Like in the moment, like in the moment someone's offering you, you know, a million dollars, who knows what you might be willing to sacrifice in that moment? Right? <Right.> And there is a [00:41:00] sense that this Miller is a bit oblivious to what's going on around him.

JR: Oh, yeah. He's so clueless about what's going on in his own home that he takes the bargain right away. And so, I just think it's interesting that, that trade off prosperity for life is kind of the theme. And we'll see this, pattern recur here as the story moves forward.

But I just think about that idea that when you're young, you give up your health for wealth. But when you're old, you give up your wealth for health. Right? It's that trade off that when you're young man, you'll go at it, you'll work late nights to try to build up the bank account to get the bigger house or the nicer car or whatever, the nice vacations, and you'll just work yourself to the bone for that.

And then by the time you're old, you've got a nice big bank account and you're spending all your money trying to deal with all your ailments, right? And so it's just that idea of trade-offs that I think it captures really well. I just love the first part of this bargain. 

David: Well, even his response when he goes home is interesting because he says, "of what use to me are riches and [00:42:00] prosperity," he added "if I'm to lose my child."

But then he says, "but what can I do?" It's like you know, yeah. What am I gonna do? So there's kind of this like resignation of what he's done. And I, we've talked about this in another, I don't know if it's one of these fairytales or not, but this idea that, you know, you're sacrificing your children, which who would make that bargain?

But we do it all the time. <Oh, yeah.> To go to your example, like, well, if I just take that one more business trip and I work overtime and I can provide my family a nice house and I can drive a nice car. And meanwhile your kids are growing up and you're like, okay, finally I've got to a place where I can enjoy life. And you know, your kids are probably resentful to you 'cause you were never around. <Right.> And it's like, what did you do? <Yeah.> You sacrificed your kid. 

JR: Yeah. No, he's, he, perfectly represents the guy who's wildly successful at work and makes a ton of money, but he's on his fourth marriage and doesn't know any of his kids. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it, it just perfectly, perfectly captures that. Sure.

David: All right. So let's [00:43:00] wrap up. I tend to think of these in acts. I'm learning to think like, okay, this is act one, so let's wrap up Act one. Yeah. Here's what's happened and then we can make some final comments on it for moving on. So it says, all that he undertook, succeeded.

So the nix promised him wealth and that's what happens. <Mm-hmm.> He was wildly wealthy. He's filled his coffers, but he could not rejoice over it because of the bargain he had made. And the nix tormented his soul. It says, so his son is there, his son is growing up. But then it says year after year went by and the nix did not show herself again.

And the Miller began to feel at ease. But I would add he began to think, well, maybe I got away with it. Right. And so then the son to kind of finish this act, the son grows up and he's a young man now. He trains to be a Huntsman and in the village lived a beautiful and true hearted maiden. And they got a little house together. They were married. And everyone lives happily ever after. 

JR: Right. Almost right. It seems that way. [00:44:00] Like they forgot about, they forgot about the bargain, which is another cool way of, you know, when you think about the guy who works too much. I don't think anybody goes into life saying, I'm gonna work all the time and ignore my kids.

But you just get lulled into it. Sure. You know, you get opportunities at work that take time away from your family maybe. And, yeah, you just kind of, you forget that you made a bargain or that when that beautiful son or daughter was born that you looked down into their eyes and said, I'm gonna be the best father in the world to you. You know, and you just forget the bargain, I think, and so life moves on, you know? 

David: Yeah. Life moves on. Now your kid's grown, and again, in this days he's probably a teenager, but he's of marrying age now, so he finds his beautiful young maiden marries her, and now they have a little house together. Right. And anything else about act one, and that's kind of the status quo that we talked about in that first question. 

JR: Well, okay. So the son, there's two things that we're [00:45:00] told about the son, and this is cool. Is first he's very successful, right? He's an apprentice to this Huntsman, and he's so good at it that the Lord of the village employs him, right? So he's really successful like his father. Right? But then this other thing, okay, yeah. That is easy to miss is he's raised to never go near the water. Right. And I think that's, and remember what we said about water, that's, too little of it. You die too much of it. You drowned. And that's another way of saying that he was raised to avoid the proper balance, right?

Because water is about balance. And so those two aspects, when you pick up on that, you're like, oh, wow. The son is just like the dad. He's wildly successful and he's not very balanced. 'cause he's told to never ever go around the water. Right. And it, yeah. You know, I don't know, it just kinda reminds me of the way some people are raised to kind of fear emotion or creativity or even rest. You know, too much structure and you become too sterile and too little and you drowned. But if you never engage with water at all, you never [00:46:00] live. But I don't know, I just kind of have that feeling that the son is a lot like the father, even though it doesn't explicitly say that.

David: No, that makes sense. I kind of overlook the idea that the son was also very successful. And so, yeah, he's, I mean, this is how he grew up, right? He watched his dad Maybe even. Well, so the son knew about this, right? Because he's aware not to go to the water. So in some sense, you could say the son is kind of aware that his dad made this bargain, right?

JR: Right. Yeah. His dad. Yeah. How would you like to get that, you know, when you're 10 years old, get mom explaining to you the bargain that was made. You can't, no, never go near the water. You know, why not, you know? Well, your dad made a bargain with a water fairy and you're gonna get sucked down into it. And it's just, it's, yeah. 

David: The good news is it's been a while. We may be outta the woods here, but yeah, your dad basically bargained your soul for his fabulous wealth. 

JR: But just in case, never go in the backyard. I mean, that's a little bit of a bummer. 

David: But be grateful. 'cause you drive a really nice [00:47:00] horse. Right? Your dad made that happen. That's right. Okay, so let's move on to act two then. And again, this is that next question might be what's the triggering event what's the event that's messes up the status quo? Right. And we're about to find that out because just really quickly, so the Huntsman goes out chasing a roe one day.

He's doing what he does, he's tracking a deer. And he's so pursuing this thing, trying to get it, that he loses where he is at and he forgets this idea that he's not supposed to go near water.

<Right.> Right? And at last he shot it, he starts to clean it near the water's edge, and then it says, in order to wash his bloodstained hands, there's a lot of imagery there.

JR: Oh gosh. I love that.

David: Right. He dips them in the lake and the nix ascends smilingly wound her dripping arms around him.

It's interesting too, this really descriptive. <Yeah.> She smilingly wound her dripping arms [00:48:00]around him and drew him quickly down under the waves, which closed over him. Okay. So now the nix has got her bargain. 

JR: Yep. Here we go. So again, one day he's chasing a roe. Right. He pursued it and he shot it. It says, and this is such a great image 'cause he's literally chasing success and he captures what he's Yeah, that's right. He's pursuing, you know what I mean? And of course it goes on to say that the water to wash his bloodstain hands, right? How clear is that imagery? You know, he got exactly what he was looking for. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Well, and the bloodstained hands also, 'cause it really makes this idea of like he disemboweled the stag and there's blood everywhere, and he has bloodstained hand and he dips them into the water. So the blood is actually representative of, it's the bargain, right? It's the sacrifice that had to be made. 

JR: Well, prosperity for life. Right? That's the bargain. The dad made prosperity for life. Yeah. Yeah. And then it turns out again, it's a subtle way. , It doesn't spell it out for you like it does the father, but the [00:49:00] son does the same thing.

He's now a slave to the very thing that he pursued. Right. Prosperity for life. So he is made the same bargain in his father. 

David: Yeah. And that's captured in this idea of the blood. Right? Right. The bloodstained hands and the blood dripping into the water. A sacrifice now has to be made because the deal has to be done.

JR: Yeah. So now this is the first glimpse that we get that this story is starting to look like a cautionary tale of work life imbalance along with a little generational baggage that's been passed down. I mean, what do you think about that? Do you think that's becoming clear here?

David: Yeah. I think it should be starting to become clear. Yeah. And when you go back then and understand that this is a generational thing, I think it helps to see why this is an issue And then how it affects his new bride. Right. Right. 'cause she realizes he's missing and she puts two and two together because she's heard the story.

So it is funny because everyone knows the story. Everyone knows Dad traded your soul Right. For [00:50:00] success. Right? Yeah. And she even knows that too. So she can see the generational, what you might say, the generational patterns, even generational sin that's being passed down.

JR: Oh, yeah. She's fully aware of that.

David: Right. She realizes what's happened and she sees his stuff by the lake and she goes, yep. The nix got him. Yep. Right. 

JR: Yep. Yeah. Another interesting thing is that, when you're reading the story, like you would read a book, you would immediately notice, well, we never mentioned the dad again. Like, the dad's gone, right? There's no closure to that part of the story. And that, that's another indication that this is a generational story of what's passed down from generation to generation. Because we kind of pivot really, the story's about the wife for the most part, the rest of it. She's kind of the hero.

David: It really is. Yeah.

JR: Yeah. Right. And but anyway, I just think it's interesting that I kept waiting for, I don't know, some kind of closure about his mother and father, but they're never mentioned again. And so we had this pivot it's just kind of a clear dividing line.

We're moving from one generation's [00:51:00] decisions to the next generation. And so here we are. Yeah. With the wife. And yes, she goes out looking for her husband and she finds this hunting pouch and she knows he's gone. And and I love how the story describes her grief. It says, "lamenting her sorrow and ringing her hands, she called on her beloved by name, but in vain she hurried across to the other side of the pond and called him a new, she reviled the nix with harsh words, but no answer follows. The surface of the water remained calm. Only the crescent moon stared steadily back at her. The poor woman did not leave the pond with hasty steps. She paced round and round it without resting a moment, sometimes in silence, sometimes uttering a loud cry, sometimes softly sobbing. At last, her strength came to an end and she sank down to the ground and fell into a heavy sleep." Wow. That is such a great description of a wife that's doing everything in her power to get her husband back, but absolutely nothing's working. 

David: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And you know, this idea of, why didn't the dad talked about anymore? [00:52:00] We've seen this in other fairytales.

JR: Oh, right, right.

David: So in One Eye, Two Eyes, Three Eyes, it's like the mother suddenly is just gone. She's not even the picture anymore. Even with Red Riding Hood, where it goes to, it says another time Red Riding Hood, and the mom's not even the picture anymore. Yeah. And I think it represents that idea that this is the situation that this generation created. Right? <Yeah.> But the story isn't about that. <Right.> It just sets the table. And so it goes back to that idea of, you know, it represents society. This is the status quo, but this is about the transformation of society.

So that's why I don't think fairytales feel the need to go back and say, well, what happened to the dad? Right? What happened to Red Riding Hood's, mom? It's like, no, that was the old generation. That was the old way of doing things. And that's about to be transformed, right? Yeah. It's something like that. 

JR: Yeah. Well, it's also a representation that this generation's on their own. Now, you know, what's done is done. The cards have been dealt to 'em, and it, yeah. There's no need in talking [00:53:00]about the father and the mother anymore, because now we've got our own problems, you know, and so now we're gonna deal with it and yeah, the old generations passed. The new generations come along, and that's what the story's about now.

David: Yeah. So I really like this part because she collapses into a heavy sleep and then a dream took possession of her. And she has the, it's really interesting 'cause she has this dream of climbing a mountain. <Oh, yeah.> Right. Thorns are catching her feet. But when she reaches the summit, quite a different site presented itself to her.

The sky was blue, the air soft, and there sat an old woman with white hair who beckoned to her kindly. Gosh, these are classic symbols. Oh yeah. Fairytales, right?

JR: Yeah. Here's the mountain imagery that we've talked about a hundred times.

David: Yeah. So she has to ascend the mountain. and that represents, you know, her connection with God. <Mm-hmm.> At the top of the mountain, there's an old woman, and in this case, the old woman represents divine wisdom. <Mm-hmm.> So she's got to draw on divine wisdom because she's so [00:54:00] distraught, she doesn't know what to do. So then the old woman said, here's what you need to do right now, what's interesting to me, and I'll get your take on this, because all that was a dream.

Right. So then she wakes up and then she actually has to go do these things. Yeah. Right. And to me I'm thinking, well, that's almost redundant, but why do you think she dreams it? And then she actually has to go physically climb this mountain? And physically encounter the old woman.

JR: Right. Yeah, I thought about that.

David: Do you have any thoughts on that? 

JR: Yeah, I'm glad you asked it because it actually took me a couple readings before I even picked up on the fact that, yeah, it was a dream and then she actually followed the dream. But it's something like divine inspiration or something like that. You know, dreams mean something in other cultures, not so much in American Western culture.

And I'm not really sure why, but dreams are really profound in other cultures. And certainly in ancient cultures, they meant something. Like you said, that lots of natural [00:55:00] phenomenon had gods and spirits associated with them and dreams were no different. So if you had a dream, it meant something.

And I don't know it's something like divine wisdom. And then she acted on it. She acted it out. She actually had to take the journey in the real world. Yeah. What was told to her in the spiritual world. 

David: Yeah. I guess another way to think of it is - It's what we talk about with symbols is her dream is almost a pattern of reality.

Her dream actually kind of shows her how the world is, and now she actually has to go do that thing. Which is that extra step of just saying, well, I had a dream and a woman told me what to do. Right? <Yeah.> It's like, no, she has to act on it. I do think there's something there. This is actually the way the world is structured, right?

JR: Yeah. I think, I think you're right.

David: You have to climb the mountain. to attain that divine wisdom that's found in God. Like that's reality. Right? Right. That's not just a nice thought. That's not just a dream. That's reality. And so I think it's something like that, that she [00:56:00] has to have this dream, but then she has to go act on it.

She has to kind of trust that this dream has showed her the way the world actually is if she will open her eyes. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. She has to act it out. I like that.

The fact that she dreamt it and then she had to go do it. it's being given the pattern of reality and then actually going out and carrying it out.

David: This is not just a nice imagery. This is not just a, what, like a metaphor.

JR: It's not a metaphor, right? It is reality. Yeah, that's right.

David: It is reality. It's the way reality is structured. And so it's telling you this is how you have to operate in the world. 

JR: It is something more than just saying, oh, that's cool. That's what this represents, and that's what that represents. And I used to approach fairytales as like a riddle. What does the dog mean and what does the cat mean and what does the witch mean? And it's like a riddle to be unlocked. But it's not that , it really is. It's a pattern of reality that's being laid out for you. And that's why I said at the beginning of it, this is like, almost like a biblical story [00:57:00] because it's so profound.

And the pattern, it comes through divine inspiration. It comes through a dream, and then it's our job to act it out.

Yeah. So she actually has to act that out, and she actually has to climb the mountain. And then she actually meets the old lady, which I think you know, we've said this before, the old woman in the fairytale is either a witch, like our last story, right?

And that's <Mm-hmm.> motherly instinct gone wrong, is what we narrowed that down to in the brother and the sister, or it's a godmother, right? It's proper maternal wisdom. It's, you know, at the top of the mountain where you meet God. And of course, don't confuse the religious. 

David: Well think of it as in Proverbs, wisdom is a woman, right? 

JR: Okay. Yeah. Right. 

David: So think of it that way. 

JR: Yeah. Okay. No, yeah, that's well said. So it's, yeah, where you go to the mountain and you meet God. So this is what she comes up with.

She, interacts now with a proper understanding of maternal wisdom. And remember, this is in [00:58:00] contrast to that beautiful passage about she paced around the pond and she called his name and sobbed right. What she was doing. Her current wisdom was not enough. Everything she did, she yelled at the knicks, tried to get the water nix to come back or something.

Nothing she was doing was working. And so now she's come in contact with proper maternal wisdom, and she's gonna now be equipped to go handle this problem. 

David: Okay, so this just hit me. There's a beautiful contrast that you just brought up what did the dad do? The dad descended into the chaos of the pond, right? <Yeah.> And made a deal with the malevolent spirit. What does this wife do now? She ascends the mountain to divine wisdom.

JR: Oh, wow. Yeah.

David: To say, no, that's good. How, how do I fix this? Right. There's a big contrast right there. The dad descends and makes the bargain. She ascends and seeks out wisdom.

JR: Yeah. Okay. So do you think that that's really one way to think about this story, is [00:59:00] that the contracts between the Miller whose wife couldn't save him, and the son whose wife could.

David: Oh yeah. Okay.

JR: the discent down to the mill Pond and, and sort of his resignation about, of what used to me are riches and prosperity and he added "if I'm to lose my child, but what can I do?" It's that resignation of, yeah, but what do I do about it, right? Well, yeah, yeah. The wife in this does something.

Well, she's inspired to do something at least, and she actually gets up and climbs the mountain where the Miller just sort of resigned himself, like, ah, what do you do? At least we got a nice carriage. 

David: So that's the, Yeah. But she answers that question, right? <Right.> He says, what can I do? And she actually demonstrates what he could have done. 

JR: Right, right. And this is obviously instead descending. Yeah, yeah. You ascend and obviously we figure out a way to break the generational curse. 

David: Yeah, that's right. You ascend, you seek out wisdom, you seek out God. Kind of [01:00:00]like Jephthah, you admit that you are a knucklehead and you're not going to keep this stupid vow and sacrifice your daughter.

Right? <Right.> So you seek out wisdom. Yeah. Oh man. That's fascinating.

JR: No, that's good. I like that.

David: Because she actually answers that question. She answers the question, but what can I do? Right. Oh, that's great. 

JR: Okay, so we get to the three items. Yeah, so she's given these three items one at a time. So the woman says to her, gives her three items, and, the first one, she says, I'll help you. "Here's a golden comb for thee. Tarry until the full moon has risen. Then go to the mill pond, seat thyself on the shore, and comb thy long black hair with this comb. When now it's done it, lay it down on the bank and thou will see what happened."

Right? So she gives her this comb, and then of course she gives three items and she has to do this same thing every time. And this is another one where the details matter. So before we get into kind of what the comb, the flute and the spinning wheel represents, what do you see about kind of the specific [01:01:00] instructions that she was given? What does that represent? 

David: Well, the thought that popped into my head was, it's very much ritual right? There's some ritual that she has to do. It's not just, Hey, toss the comb on the shore. There's something very specific that she has to do each time. With the flute, she has to play a tune and then set it down.

She has to spin yarn or something before she actually, so there's something, gosh, I'm not quite sure, but there's ritual, she has to put these things to use and then she has to give them up, is almost like, yeah. How I would see that. 

JR: Yeah. Well, again, if the water represents balance, then all these items are kind of laid down and the water takes it away, which is a way of saying that these items, or at least what they represent, must be put in their proper balance.

David: Yeah. Another way to think of that is they have to be sacrificed in some sense. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. 

David: Okay. So, and so we'll get into what that means. But, so yeah, she has the comb and the flute and the spinning wheel. But what's also interesting that I wanna get your take on is the instructions are also [01:02:00] very specific.

It says "Tarry until the full moon has risen." Yeah. And she says that each time, so it's not just like, the next night, go do this, right? It's like you have to wait, you have to wait until the next full moon. So what's that a month, right?

JR: Yeah. Yeah. So, no, that's worth pointing out.

David: She gets these instructions. Yeah. So what do you think is behind that? 

JR: Well, I think, again, I kind of see this as this is the process to save her husband, or let's say save your marriage. And I think kind of what it's saying is that the process of saving your husband isn't a quick fix, right? How do you rescue a husband whose life is completely out of balance?

Well, it's gonna take time. And so we'll go through what the three things represent. But whatever those are, just recognize that it's gonna take time. That it's not gonna be, say these three words and this magically happens. It's give each of these time. In other words, maybe you could say don't just do the act. Let it infuse into who you are. Does that make sense? <Yeah.> In other words, give this time, [01:03:00] let this become who you are. In other words. 

David: No, there's definitely that you have to give it time. And as I'm reading this, she says this every time when she says, here's the instructions, and then she says, "then thou will see what will happen."

She doesn't tell her what will happen. Right, right. Yeah. So there is this element of uncertainty. We would almost say there's this element of faith that this is the road that wisdom is telling you to go down. Wisdom's not gonna tell you how everything's gonna turn out. Right, right, right.

But she has to do these things, we would say on faith. And the old lady just says, you know, if you do this, you'll see what will happen next. Right. But yeah, every time I was gonna say, nothing happens, but every time something a little bit more happens. Right. And that's another interesting thing we need to point out. But my point is that it doesn't happen just overnight, right?

It's not a, Hey, if you do this, you'll fix your marriage. It's like, well try this and we'll see what happens. <Yeah.> Right. Which is kind of a more [01:04:00] realistic take on things. But every time, and we can talk about this for a minute, every time something does happen, her husband emerges out of the pond a little bit further. <Right. Yeah.> Every time she does this. 

JR: Yeah. so it's not obvious what's going to happen, but you do see progress with what's happening. And so to your point about wisdom doesn't explain things out. You know what just popped in my head is the whole Mr. Miyagi karate kid wax my car, paint my fence, sand the floor, right?

You know, and right at the Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Right at the point where he's saying, look, I'm just doing all your crappy housework. You're not teaching me how to fight. And then of course, he shows him what he's learned, through the actions. But he didn't explain, Hey, wax this car because that's gonna teach you how to block a punch.

And you know what I mean? He just sort of does the same thing, wax this car, and then he just walks away. And it's like, the wisdom is when, what is it? Wisdom is when you see the results of intentional [01:05:00] actions come together. Maybe that's it. Something like that. 

David: Yeah. I thought you were gonna say this is another aspect of, but wisdom is doing the right thing over and over and over again, even when you don't see an immediate payoff.

JR: Yeah. There you go. That's a better way to say it. Yeah.

David: Which then leads to what you just said. But there is that aspect of wisdom, or we might say integrity. Integrity is like, you know, hey, every day doing this. You don't just have a moment of wisdom, right? <Yeah, yeah.>

Wisdom is usually something that has to be practiced over and over and over again. And it's only at some future time that you actually go, oh, okay, the wise way of living is actually paying off. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. 

JR: Right. Well, I think of spiritual disciplines; it's hard to do these things, but you do them with the faith that there's a understanding and a payoff that is very difficult to express at the beginning. But after it, once you've done these things, once you've integrated the discipline into who you are, that's when you can start to see the [01:06:00] effects of it. 

David: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So in that sense, that actually helps me understand this a lot better. 'cause in that sense, you see the wife going through the ritual, you know, month after month, right?

<Mm-hmm.> New Moon after New Moon, doing these things, not knowing what the payoff's going to be, but she's pursuing wisdom, and so she's going to incorporate these rituals, these disciplines in her life. Because the only I guess you could say like for her, the only way to get her husband back is the long game, right?

<Yeah.> To be consistent and stick with this. 

JR: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I wanna keep talking about this stuff, but I think we're gonna have to get into what the comb and the flute and the spinning wheel represent. Okay. And then we'll kind of get into more of what the moon represented. I think we'll be able to tie it together. Let's jump into these three things.

 The big question is what do these three items represent? I'll let you take a stab at it first. 

David: Okay. I've gone back and forth on this and I've, had a rough idea and then I'm trying to find the [01:07:00] specific words. Right. But, okay. I think I'm on the right track. The comb represents well.

Okay. So first I'd say the comb represents beauty. Right. But the comb represents a lot of things. So, because the comb, the act of comb your hair is bringing order to chaos also.

JR: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Straightening out the tangled mess.

David: So there's that. Yeah. So there's that aspect right now is the comb, actually, I think. Well, and in fairytales, this is what happens. These things can have multiple layers to them, but there is this layer of the comb represents that she has to untangle this mess. Right. But the comb also represents beauty. Right. Right. But the more I thought about it, and I won't jump too far ahead, but it's also represents recognition.

And I may have to explain this later, but it's something like, when something is beautiful, it grabs your attention for the moment. Okay. And so, like I said, we may have to circle back to this, but I'll just leave it at this for now. Is that, [01:08:00] so when he first meets her, right? <Mm-hmm.> When any two people first lock eyes, right? There's something that captures your attention, right? Right, right. And the comb and the beauty represent that, I think. Okay. So we can put a pin in that. But do you want me to list the other two and then you go, or do you want to chime in on the comb?

JR: Okay. So you're saying now I just outta curiosity, you said recognition. <Yeah.> And so Well, okay. Again, it's like a, it's, you're right. I wanna explain it first and then come back and tie it together. But I know what you're saying. Or at least tell me if this is what you were thinking.

His responses to all these things are just as telling as the thing themselves. So, you know, when his head came up out of the water, it says that he looked longingly at her. And so ...

David: Yeah. And that's the recognition. And here's where I'm going with all this. There's a pattern of these three ideas in the first act, the second act, and the third act.

JR: Oh yeah, you were.

David: And so that's why it's, [01:09:00] it's almost more than beauty. It's recognition. And so in the first act, that act of recognition is that he saw a beautiful maiden in the village. Okay. That's the comb. 

JR: Yeah. Right. Okay. Alright. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Okay. Yeah, I never thought about that. You know, I didn't at least go back to the village to the first act, really. But where I understood that idea of recognition is his response to it.

You know, when she laid the comb down and the water swallowed up. Right. He comes up out of the water, but just his head and it says that he didn't say anything. I thought that was interesting. He didn't speak, but he looked at her longingly, right? And so I kind of took that to mean Yeah. Like you said, recognition or, I wrote down that he paid her attention.

He sees her , and not just, I looked over there and saw this person. He really, really sees her. Right. That's kind of the way I got that he paid her attention. That was the response to the comb. 

David: Okay. Well, it's so interesting because, so I think there's a pattern of all three of these elements in each of the acts.

So what [01:10:00] you just said, I think ties in perfectly because when did he first meet her? Right? He recognized her in the village. Hey, there's a beautiful maiden. Right. I. Right. And that's that glance, that's the comb, what you just said is that makes sense then because what does he do when she lays the comb? He recognizes her.

Right? Oh, okay. Yeah. But it's just a glance and then he's gone. <Yeah.> So it's almost, it's almost, golly, this is so brilliant. Yeah. It's almost mirroring the time they first met. And of course that's this whole spoiler alert. That's the whole thing is how does she pull 'em out? Well, it's almost like you have to go back and remember how you fell in love. <Yeah.> In the first place. 

JR: No, that's good. And then of course, again, you know, I realize we're jumping to the end, but y'all have already heard the story. The scales fall off his eyes in the third act and he recognizes Yeah. That her again. Wow, okay. 

David: That's the third act. That's cool. That's the recognition. Yeah. 

JR: Wow. Yeah. This is brilliant. 

David: It is, yeah. It really is when you start unpacking it. Okay, so [01:11:00] that's the comb. 

JR: Right. But again, that makes sense. Why he didn't speak, you know? 'cause I thought that was a little bit weird that his head came up and it says that he didn't speak, but he looked at her longingly.

But if the point of that act is to recognize, to pay her attention, then that line is not misplaced, you know? 

David: No. Then that makes total sense. Sure. It's the glance across the room.

JR: Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. I like that. That's good.

David: Yeah. That's interesting. 

JR: Alright, the flute. The flute, what does, what does that represent then? 

David: Okay, so the flute represents, well, one of the words I had is attention, but also enchantment. And that's, there's exactly the word something about, okay, that's your word too, right? So I differentiate attention from recognition because attention is more focused, right?

<Mm-hmm.> It's, I'm going to pay attention to this now. It's more than just, oh, hey, I like the looks of that person across the room. It's attention, right? Yeah. And why I think the flute represents that is because, [01:12:00] well, of a couple things we've said in previous fairy tales, and I'll get your take, is when Two Eyes sings to her sisters, right?

<Mm-hmm.> There was that moment of music transcended their, what did we say? Their ideologies, right? <Yes.> For a moment and lulled them to sleep, right? <Right.> So it's almost that enchantment, that focused attention just for a moment. And we also saw it, I think we talked about that episode, but it's the same reason why when King David or the Shepherd David, not King yet, plays his flute before King Saul.

<Yeah.> It stills the spirit in him. Right? <Right.> It's that focused attention. It's that enchantment. We were talking about. We started off by talking about documentaries we were watching. The next night I watched a Tom Petty, I love Tom Petty documentary and there was the moment where this song came on the beginning of Free Falling.

Yeah. And, gosh, there was just a moment of enchantment, right? Yeah. 'cause the beginning of that song is [01:13:00] beautiful. Yeah. And you just hear that as opening chords, you know that I'm not gonna attempt to do it, but those opening chords and you just go, okay, everyone hush. Everyone stop. Free Fallin's about to play.

Yeah. Right, right. But it's that same idea, right? It's the flute, it's the music. It's something that captures your attention. Maybe that's the better way of say it. Well, there's also, it totally captures your attention. 

JR: Yeah. And there's also an element of music that is, when you said the Tom Petty it popped in my head, there's an element of music that takes you to a time and a place, right?

<Yeah.> It's not just the first time you hear a great song, you're like, oh wow, this is beautiful. I mean, it can have that effect, but what's great about great music is it usually takes you back to a time, you know, how many times has a song come on and you've said, Hey, the first time I heard this song I was with my buddies and we were doing whatever, right? You know, it's like it takes you back to a certain time and place. And so there's something about that idea of enchantment or the flute that also paints that picture of drawing him back to a time and a place, [01:14:00] maybe back to that first time in the village when he saw her, right? 

David: Yeah, that's right.

JR: There's a little bit of that memory , you know, is tied with music, okay. Yeah. So enchantment is exactly what I wrote down. Yes. 

David: Okay. Alright. So we're on the same page on that one. And I'll also point out that I say these are repeated in each act, and it doesn't jump out at you in the first act about, okay, there's no flute.

Like they didn't have a song, right? <Mm-hmm.> Remember when you're growing up and dating someone, it's, I remember when I was high school, it's like, what's y'all's song? And I'm like, what? We have to have a song? Like we've been out twice, you know? <Oh wow.> That was the thing. You remember that? Did you guys do that?

JR: I don't remember that. I mean, I guess, there's music that you liked that again, you associate it with that time period, but yeah, you had to have an official song. I guess you had to post it on your Facebook profile or something. 

David: Like there's a lot of couples. Yeah. Yeah. Well we didn't have any of that when I was in high school, but yeah, it wasn't uncommon for a couple to have a song that this is our song anyway.

So back in act one, [01:15:00] here's where I think it's a bit subtle, but I think it's there. In the Village, lived a beautiful and true hearted maiden. Okay, now this idea, true hearted, it's like that goes beyond just, she was beautiful. <Mm-hmm.> Now we talked about in fairytales that beautiful represents actually, being true hearted. But there's something beyond beauty that had to focus his attention, enchantment. Right, right. And that's that idea of true hearted. So I do think maybe, I don't know if you buy it, but I do think the flute captures that idea of she was not only a beautiful maiden, but she was true hearted.

<Yeah.> And how could he know if she's true hearted until he gets to know her and that's when he really falls for her. You could say. 

JR: Yeah, no, that's right. Well one, the beauty is external beauty and the flute maybe is internal beauty, or at least ties into that, you know, in the first act. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, again, you can see from his response, the flute, you know, his body comes all [01:16:00] the way up. Only half of him, his body came out, right? And he has these outstretched arms. Right. It's like he desires her. So 

David: Yeah. Now he's reaching for her. Yeah. 

JR: Right. Yeah. Right. So the first time he notices her or he pays her attention the second time he desires her.

And so here's that, yeah, that original pattern, I think you're exactly right. It's finding that original pattern of why you fell in love to begin with. It seems to have that ring to it, I think. 

David: Yeah. Definitely. 

JR: Okay, so then we're onto the spinning wheel. And this is a trickier one. I had more difficulty with this one. What did you come up with? The spinning wheel. 

David: Okay. So, yeah, this is one I probably had to think the most about. So it's something like, initially, and I think we both said this a while ago, is the spinning wheel basically, I wanna say domestication, that's totally the wrong word. And so I came up with another word. Okay. Yeah. And it even may sound like, you know, a bit sexist in our modern culture, but there is something about the spinning wheel that represents proper alignment with [01:17:00] your role in the relationship.

Okay? And so the words that I came up with was alignment and orientation. So the spinning wheel represents that she is not only a pretty face, right? <Mm-hmm.> But she's also true hearted.

But the spinning wheel somehow represents that she is also properly aligned in this relationship with her marriage. Okay. Like she knows her role. Okay. And I may have to explain this for a minute, but 

JR: Yeah, that sounded sexist right there. But I see she knows her place in the kitchen, is that what you're saying?

David: Alright, well let me explain this ' alright. 'cause you may represent the thoughts of a lot of women right now going like, are you kidding me? 

JR: No, this is dead on. It is exactly what it is. And, we're trying to find a right way to say it. I really do think both people have their roles. Like he's a Huntsman, he's going out and Exactly. Putting food on the table. Exactly. And she has her domestic role, but she shows him the proper balance of the role.

He obviously remember he chased after [01:18:00] success just like his father. And now he's out of balance. Right. And she's showing him the proper way to do that. So Yeah. Before you get all worked up, I mean, the, look, in the old world, there were proper roles for both husband and wife, and neither of them just sat around and did nothing.

Or at least if you did your, the fishermen and his wife. Right. But yeah. Yeah. It's like things get outta whack. So yeah. It is, more difficult to talk about it in this modern day because the fear that you're saying, get the wife back in the kitchen or whatever, you know, clean the floors.

But back then it's like the wife took care of, they 

David: make me a sandwich. 

JR: Yeah, right. The wife took care of the work that had to be done within the home, and the husband took care of the work that had to be done outside in the fields, outside the home. And I think that was, that seems like a reasonable balance, you know? I don't know. 

David: Yeah. Well, it was the balance for thousands and thousands of years. Now, I'm not saying it's the right balance for today, because, you know, people have [01:19:00] careers and all. But here's the thing that really helped it make sense to me. And it, actually frames this entire story.

So maybe getting ahead of myself, but in the Odyssey. So Odysseus leaves Troy, right, and he sets on this 10 year journey to get back to Ithaca. Well, waiting at home for him is his wife Penelope. And if you know the story of the Odyssey, Penelope, what is she spending her time doing? She's at her loom weaving a tapestry, right?

JR: Oh, that's right. Yeah.

David: Okay. So, and this is why I think it's so important to understand this because this is what the spinning wheel represents. Now, if you know the story of the Odyssey, Penelope at her loom weaving a tapestry is not just woman's work. It's not a picture of like a sewing circle, right?

<Right.> I was at, although that's popular now, I was at a coffee shop yesterday and the gal at the next table, she got some yarn and started knitting. 

JR: So yeah, you came across a literal sewing circle. I thought that was <That's right.> kind of done away with. Alright. 

David: Yeah, that's right. I know it [01:20:00] was popular for a while, but apparently it still is. And hey, there's nothing wrong with that. But back to Penelope, right? So if you know the Odyssey, what is the tapestry that she's weaving? What does that represent? It's not just busy work. She's actually fending off all the suitors who wanna take her husband's kingdom from her. They're telling her, her husband's dead, right?

<Mm-hmm.> She's protecting her son, Telemicus because they're bullying him around and he's starting to grow up and become a man. And, but he doesn't know his place in the world. So all of that is captured in this idea of Penelope at her tapestry. 

JR: And doesn't Yeah. Doesn't she undo it every night?

Like, 'cause, because I think Yeah, she undo it every night. Yeah. The point of it was that once she's done, then she'll, take a suitor because she was basically, I, I forget the specifics of it. You would know better than me, but that she tells her suitors yes, I know I need to take a suitor.

I know that this has to be done, but I need to finish this tapestry first. And then behind the scenes, she undoes [01:21:00] whatever sewing progress she made that day, she undoes it every night. 

David: That's right. Yeah. So the tapestry, or you could think of the idea of the spinning wheel is the same thing. It represents more than just she's part of a knitting club.

Right? <Right.> It, it represents her protection of the home, her protection of her son, Telemicus, her protection of the kingdom while her husband is away. And it also represents her cunning. Right. Okay. It's the cunning of it's the female cunningness. <Yeah.> That says, you know, look, I'm not gonna pick a fight with these guys, but I'm gonna outwit them.

Right. And again, do any kind of research into the Odyssey, that's what Penelope at her loom represents, and I think the spinning wheel represents something very similar here. 

JR: Okay. No, that's, does that make sense? Well, you went way deeper than me. Mine was a much shallower take, but I do like that. But to your point about the cunning or the thought behind it, like I said, mine's a little bit more simplistic.

You know, a [01:22:00] spinning wheel takes loose individual fibers and spins them into a functional thread. Right? And so it's this image of resourceful productivity, right? And again, all these items are laid at the water's edge and swallowed by the pond. So that's a way of saying they're put in their proper balance.

And so, again, if the husband's problem was imbalance right, that he made this bargain of prosperity for life, and he's been pulled into the water, he's completely out of balance. What's the best way to pull him out of it? Because the spinning wheel is what pulls him out, right? And I think it's because when he saw That's right.

Yeah. And I think it's because when he saw that her productivity was in the proper balance, that he could do the same, right? What do you think about that? 

David: Yeah. That's right. I think that's right. It's not so much productivity. I think it is actually your role in the household. Yeah. And look, everyone has a role in the household, right?

Right. So we've seen their [01:23:00] relationship progress from like, you know, oh, there's a cute guy, or there's a cute girl across the room to now I got to know them and now I'm kind of enchanted. But you know that once you get married or once you establish a relationship, you're both gonna have roles to play in that.

And there's a lot of give and take in that. And I think the spinning wheel represents her role. And, to your point, it's proper, it's her properly balanced role in the relationship. And in a way it's like she's modeling what this looks like, right? Because the counterpart to that we've talked about the pattern is her working the spinning wheel is him being the Huntsman. And we know that he got outta balance with that.

JR: Right. Yeah. I think that's it.

David: That took him down the wrong path. Yeah, I think it makes total sense. 

JR: Yeah. Okay. So, to summarize, you got the comb, that's that sort of external beauty. The flute is that enchantment and then the spinning wheel is her role or each of their roles in this relationship.

So if you're [01:24:00] gonna say beauty is the most shallow thing. Then obviously when you find your role in the relationship and you get in the groove, right? And you have expectations of each other and you call out the best in each other and you both find your roles.

That's the depth of the relationship. And so you can kind of see this ever deepening pattern going on with these three things. Okay, I like that. 

David: Yeah, I think that makes total sense. Yeah, that's right. 

JR: Yeah. So now let's go back to the, wait until the full moon has risen. Now when we put all these pieces together, in other words, the process of saving your husband isn't a quick fix. We already said that, but you know, how do you save the husband whose life is out of balance?

Well, you become a wife that's beautiful, enchanting, and resourceful, and you recognize that it's gonna take some time doing that, you're gonna actually demonstrate it. It's not just a quick flash of beauty or a quick flash of resourcefulness. It's, we're gonna weave these into our lives and actually become these things.

And once you do that, [01:25:00] you become the model for your husband to look at. And that pulls him back into balance. Right? It's something like that. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. and I like that idea of faithful adherence to wisdom day after day after day, the consistency of it. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Not, guaranteeing the outcome. Right. But it's gonna take that consistency of, you know, following the path of wisdom. Yeah. I think that makes total sense.

JR: Yeah. Trust the process.

David: Trust the process. That's right. You use a coaching slogan there.

JR: Yeah, that's right.

David: Alright, so anything else about act two? Or should we jump in and finish the story? Because hey, there's a lot. 

JR: Oh, I know. We could go on and on, but yeah, let's move on to act three kind of, because I don't know, there's fascinating stuff all through this, but yeah. Let's jump into act three. So the husband comes out, he gets pulled out of the water, he grabs her hand and happily ever after, right? 

David: All kinds of crazy stuff starts to happen. But yeah, this is another point where in a [01:26:00]fairytale you'd go, okay, they're about to wrap things up and then, No. 

JR: No, everything goes sideways now. Right? 

David: This was a hard one to figure out, right? So she pulls him outta the water and they start to leave.

But then, and it describes, "But they had scarcely gone a very little distance. Then the whole pond rose with a frightful roar." <Mm-hmm.> And streamed out over the open country and basically floods everything. And then there's this really, I mean, there's so many little interesting things here because she cries out to the old woman, which is saying a prayer, right?

<Mm-hmm.> Because they're running away, the flood's coming. What does she do? She cries out to wisdom. She says a prayer. Right, right. What do we do? And the woman transforms him into a frog and her into a toad. There's a lot there that we could talk about. 

JR: Yeah. I think that's interesting. First, do you have a, take on, on the meaning of the frog and the toad?

Why not just two frogs, do you think that's intentional? Maybe that's what I'm [01:27:00] saying. 

David: I hadn't really thought about one a frog and one a toad. But there is something like they're still separate, right? Yeah. We think they're together, but they're not. And that's what's gonna happen here, because this torrent basically pushes them to different ends of the kingdom, you could say. Right. And when the, flood recedes, they become people again.

But now they're still separate. So I think something like the toad and the frog represent that they're not quite together yet, right? 

JR: Yeah. I kinda looked at it like they are both made for water, but in different ways. Right? She doesn't turn them into birds so that they can fly away, but a frog and a toad they're gonna get washed away, but they're suited for the water without being drowned.

And so I think the distinction between one's a frog and one's a toad is sort of like saying, you're both equipped to handle this, but you're gonna handle it in slightly different ways.

David: Okay. Yeah, I could see that too.

JR: I mean, that's kind of the way I say. Okay. I, I guess I'm saying at this point in the story, I think the generational curse has been broken. Right? He's out of the [01:28:00] water, but it's not quite happily ever after yet. Right. Life and marriage are still hard. They're still gonna lose each other for a while, but they're both equipped to survive the chaos in their own way. That's the way I saw the frog in the toad. 

David: Well, I was going a little bit. Well, it's, man, it's hard to talk about any one thing in this last act without Right. Summarizing the whole act as a whole, because it all ties together. Yeah. Well we can do that. This is one where, okay. So, but this is one where, the first time I read this, it's like. Okay.

The lake explodes and floods everything. They turn into frogs, you know, they're on separate sides of the kingdom, and both become shepherds. And I'm just like, what the heck is going on? Like, what did I just start a different fairytale, right? Yeah. But everything actually ties together. Yeah. And I guess we can maybe try and attempt that.

So let's start with the pond overflows and floods everything. 

JR: Okay. 

David: Right. So it ties back to the flute, I think, [01:29:00] because, and again, we gotta jump ahead a little bit because all this ties together, but one of the ways they recognize each other is he plays a song on the flute. Right, right. Okay. So he has the flute, he has the golden flute, which means that he took it from the lake. 

JR: Yeah. I don't even think about that, but sure. 

David: Yeah. So if you see him being dragged down by the nix of the mill pond as a descent to the underworld, which that's essentially what it is. Right? <Right.> Then if you know your, mythological rules, you can't take things from the underworld. And if you do, then the king of the underworld gets very upset with you. Okay.

JR: Oh, okay. Yeah. You're saying that he, this, he tried to sneak out the flute.

David: So he sneaks the flute out. Right. And it's at that point where the nix of the mill pond realized that she's been basically conned.

So something that was offered in sacrifice to her, right? The golden flute. <Mm-hmm.> The golden comb. Right. He snuck that out's and so oh's Cool. I think that's what's happening here. 

JR: Yeah. [01:30:00] No, that makes sense. That's actually really, I didn't pull all that together. I mean, I, when you said that he had the flute, I was like, oh, yeah, I guess he does have it at the end, but not the comb and the spinning wheel, but yeah, he snuck the flute out. Yeah. And so Yeah, the nix is, is pissed. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Right. He, he just incurred the wrath of the nix because , it's like, okay, she's been conned. Not only did she pull him out of the underworld, and again, like you go back to the Odyssey, like Odysseus has to descend to the underworld, right?

<Mm-hmm.> At one point. So that's kind of part of this theme, but he also takes something from the underworld, and so that causes chaos. And that makes sense, right? Because what is chaos? The world floods. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But then I think this is brilliant the way this story's written because then she cries out for help to wisdom.

Well, how do you survive the flood? Well, she turns them in to creatures who can survive in water land. Right. Water creatures. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so all of a [01:31:00] sudden, like, it makes perfect sense. 

JR: No, it does. That's actually really good. Mine was, I mean, I kind of had this idea of just the chaos of marriage.

'cause again, I'm going with this marital generational baggage. You find somebody, you fall in love, but it's not easy. You work at it and you, you know, oh, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you grow apart and then of course you rediscover each other. So I'm going with that theme. So I'm just kinda looking at the water as just sort of the chaos of marriage, you know, but I think, no, I like the underworld tie in.

And you're right. If you know your mythological rules, you know, you can't take anything out of the underworld. And I think that's exactly what's going on here. 

David: Yeah. Because it says the shepherd, we're jumping ahead, but it says the shepherd pulled the flute out of his pocket, and it's like, well, why does he have the flute?

Yeah. He took it from the underworld. 

JR: Where did he stick it when he was a frog? Answer me that mythological master. 

David: Yeah. Okay. So that's the bonus question. Right? That's our, our listeners, if you can answer that question. [01:32:00] tell us. Yeah. How he hid the, there's an old joke in there somewhere.

Yeah. But yeah, answer that riddle there. Where did he put the flute while he was a frog. That's hilarious. 

JR: Yeah. Okay. So , no, that's really good. I like that. 

David: Well, I would say what you're doing is you're going right to the practical application of all this, because that is the practical application of all this backstory that I'm talking about. Right? Right. So it's not necessarily different takes because ultimately I am with you that this is about a marriage relationship and how to save it.

And ultimately that Yes. That's where all this is going, what you just said, right? <Right.> I'm more stuck on the symbolic elements. So I just say that to say that we're not saying two different things. We're actually, I think pretty much in alignment on this No. When we're just talking about different aspects of it.

JR: Yeah. When your life is out balance, when there's chaos, you're in the underworld. I mean, that's what that means. Yeah. that's right. So anyway, yeah, okay. So they get separated, they go to distant lands, [01:33:00] and then they go back to their human form. And I think it's funny that it says that they wake up and they're kind of around strangers that don't speak the same language as them.

Was there anything to that that you 

David: Oh, I didn't, really catch that. No. Yeah, but you're right. 

JR: Yeah. There is a strange land think going on there. I, well, I don't know. I just kind of, I looked at that and I thought, okay, how does that play into, especially if we're going to this relationship thing?

If you are assuming that this is about a marriage and I think it is, and you're married to somebody, they're obviously still married, right? They're coming home from work every day. They're passing each other every night, but there are around strangers that don't speak the same language.

I think that's a way of saying that's where their relationship had gone, you know? And we've all seen, yeah, we've all kind of seen relationships like that. Maybe your own relationship has had a season that way where, you know, I don't know. We, yeah, we talk, but man, we are not communicating, you know what I mean?

And that's the way, see, that, that's the vibe I got from that.

David: It's like we've done the [01:34:00] hard work. She's pulled me back in, but we're kind of in new territory, you could say. Right. And well, you know, I mean, look, one of the things I've said before too is like, in relationships, especially you get married young, you both grow and mature, but sometimes it happens at different points, right?

Yeah. And so, one person's growing and the other person's not, and then they grow and they're, and those times where people are growing, kind of maturing, in the relationship at different, what would you say, at different pace. At a different pace. Yeah. It's almost like there are those moments where you're like, I feel like I'm in the house with a stranger, right? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: But we're trying to figure this out. Right? Maybe it's something like that. 

JR: No, I think that is it. Yeah. Well, okay. So then to move on to the next step, they both became shepherds, and I kind of took this, I don't know if you took it this way, but I don't know, there's something about they both raised sheep.

So do you think that means children came along?

David: Oh, wow.

JR: Did you get that vibe at all? 

David: Could be. I didn't think about [01:35:00] children came along, but I do think the role of Shepherd it's almost back to the most basic level of understanding your role in the relationship.

So for him, he was a Huntsman, right? <Mm-hmm.> And in my mind, shepherd is a step down from a Huntsman, I would think. So I don't if that's the case, but in my mind, I would rather be a Huntsman. That sounds a lot more cool than a shepherd, right? 

JR: Well, yeah. Heck yeah. 

David: And so in a, so, in a weird way too, I think the spinning wheel, like this is where it ties back to those three elements.

Because in this new reality, it's not her at a spinning wheel. It's not Penelope at the tapestry. It's the most basic of care for the family, right? So she's a shepherd too. It's something like that. Does that make sense? Well, well, you're right. It may involve that kids come along.

JR: Well, when you said that,

David: but they don't know each other either. So. 

JR: Yeah. But also, you're right. You know, the spinning wheel is the production of taking wool and spinning into functional thread. And again, it's [01:36:00] almost like you're going back to the more fundamental role, right. You now, now she's raising sheep.

David: Yeah, that's right. 

JR: As opposed to spinning wool or spinning thread or whatever, you know? Yeah. I, there may be something like that. I don't know. It could be multiple things, but I took it to mean sort of the raising of children. It's like, okay, so the most likely time for a divorce, they say is in the first five years of marriages.

And that's not a real surprise, right? You married the wrong person, whatever it is, and you know, you Yeah. Start living together, you start fighting, right. The divorce happens. But the interesting thing is that the second most likely time to get a divorce is around 20 years of marriage.

And if you think about that, you're like, well, that's kind of strange. You would think that the longer you're married, the likelihood of divorce simply goes down, right? But there's not, there's a big spike in divorces around the time that kids are grown and leaving the house. And so it's kind of this moment of you put all your energy into raising the kids.

You find out that you don't know your husband or your wife anymore, because all you're doing is dealing [01:37:00] with kids and making sure that they're on the straight and narrow and raising them. And then when they go, you have this moment where you don't know your wife, or you don't know your husband.

You have to rediscover each other. And so I think that, this being washed away, different lands don't speak the language, raising sheep. I think that's kind of what that's saying. It's the chaos of raising a family, drifting apart. To your point about they seem to be steps backwards in their roles.

It's almost like, yeah, that's a good point. You may be a doctor or a lawyer, but when you have kids, you're changing diapers and cleaning up throw up. You know what I mean? And so it's sort of a back to the basics type thing. And yeah, they drift apart just like it probably happens in any relationship.

That's the way I view this whole third act. 

David: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that's right. You know, and you can also think of it in terms of we've been through a hard time together. We've done the hard work. You know, we've been to [01:38:00] therapy maybe, he's cut back on his hours.

She's trying to do better, whatever the case may be. But it's almost like, ok, now we're in this uncomfortable it's like I don't really know who this new person is. Right, right, right. Yeah. It's like this is what I wanted and fought for, but at the same time, it's like I've gotta get to know this person again now or something like that. Yeah. 

JR: Yeah. And to your idea about the three items represented in each act. Now we have the three items pop back up again. The comb. <That's right.> The flute and the spinning wheel. So, well, I'll let you take it away. So they obviously happen to stumble across each other. Right.

Which I think is funny. 'cause if you're in a far away land, you don't stumble across each other. But again, the far away land is metaphorical, you know, you can be in the same room, but miles apart. Right. That's just the way the saying goes. Yeah. Far away land. Yeah, exactly. That's right. So they see each other and then I think it's interesting that they not just see each other.

It says they met in a valley, but they didn't recognize each other, but they rejoice. Because they were no longer [01:39:00] lonely. And then it says, they brought their flocks to the same place, but they didn't speak much, but they felt comforted. See, I think that's a very specific line, you know what I mean? If you run into somebody, first of all, you're with people that you can't speak to. You're surrounded by strangers, right?

That's that whole language difference. And now you come across somebody else. Imagine going to a foreign country, and this has actually happened to me. You go to a foreign country where they're speaking a different language, and then you see somebody on the street saying whatever, Hey, taxi over here, I need you.

You know? I'd be like, oh, hey, you speak my language. Where are you from? You sound like you're from the states. Right. And it, yeah.

David: Do you wanna have coffee? Do you wanna have dinner with me?

JR: Right. But I think it's funny that in this story, they don't speak much. And it's like, why would you not be speaking your head off when you've been surrounded by people who speak a different language?

But the reason is, because that's a way of saying they're starting to reconnect. You know, they're starting to rediscover who they are, but they're not speaking much yet. The communication lines aren't completely open. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. [01:40:00] that's right. That makes sense. They're together, but they're not speaking the same language yet.

Yeah. Well, yeah. And which is, which again, is captured in that basic of role of they're both shepherds at this point. Yeah. He's not a Huntsman yet. Right. She's not weaving a beautiful tapestry yet. Right, right. And so they're together, but they're not speaking the same language. Yeah. 

JR: Which is Yeah. Which plays right in line with the fact that they don't recognize each other either, because that's another thing you're like, how do you not recognize your wife or your husband? Right. But obviously that's metaphorical, but they're also not speaking the same language. So I think that's kind of interesting.

David: Okay, so then it all wraps up, and this is a interesting detail. It said one evening when the full moon was shining.

JR: Yeah. There's that moon motif again.

David: Yep. Everything has happened on a full moon. The shepherd pulled his flute out of his pocket. Again, we have the great mystery of where it was when he was a frog, and he played on it a beautiful but sorrowful air.

And when he had finished, this is actually a beautiful ending of the story. He saw that [01:41:00] she was weeping bitterly, and he said, why are you weeping? And she said thus shown the full moon when I played this air on the flute for the last time, and the head of my beloved rose out of the water. That's a great line.

JR: It is, it is.

David: Then he looked at her and it seemed as if a veil fell from his eyes and he recognized his dear wife. Ah, that's, yeah. They embraced and kissed and now we get to the happily ever after, right? 

JR: Right. In fact, I love the last line. "No one need to ask if they were happy."

David: Oh, yeah. That's a great line. Don't even bother asking.

JR: You know, we're not even gonna say, and they lived happily ever after because that's a given. Right.

David: You get the picture.

JR: After that narrative. Yeah.

David: So again, this happens on a full moon. And again, like, it's a very important detail that he has the flute in his pocket.

And so we have the spinning wheel, we have the flute, and then we have again, that comb the recognition, right, right. Which is that moment when the veil fell from his eyes and he recognized his dear wife. And so we [01:42:00] have the three elements there in this last act too. I think it's brilliant.

JR: No, I think, I think this, the, this was written, yeah, amazingly crafted. And it's one of these stories that again, when you read it for the first time, there's something that calls to you. It's interesting, but of course you can't untangle it in one set down with it. But the more you sit down with it, the more you see the patterns and the more man I wanna know who wrote this, 'cause whoever did it is absolutely brilliant and was able to have this recurring theme throughout and this kind of, these multiple layers throughout.

And yeah, I just think it's a brilliant story and it certainly ends with the happily ever after. 

David: Yeah, that's right. And I like the fact, the other reason I think it's brilliant is I like the fact that the symbols are subtle. You have to pull them out, but it's also what makes you dig for them because you know they're there.

Right. Sometimes I watch a movie and you know, one of the characters will say something or do something and you go, ah, they're subtly referencing this. And then the character, basically [01:43:00]explains what just happened and you're like, you just ruined it. Yeah. You just ruined the moment. Yep. 'cause you're trying to explain this movie to the dumbest person watching it, right?

JR: Yep, exactly.

David: And, and so, there's something about the art of subtlety that this fairytale captures that I like it, it's like if it were a movie, you'd have to watch it several times and go, did you see it this time? Did you catch this this time? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Because they don't overexplain anything, but it's all there. 

JR: Well, one of the things I would encourage the listeners to do is to go back and read it. And with, all of our insights and go back and read it. And again, the last time I read it, that's when I noticed the difference between the frog and the toad.

I'm like, I'm certain there's a reason for every specific word, every detail. And so you kind of dig into that and you're like, huh. Just for brevity's sake, why wouldn't you say she turned them into frogs? You know? But I think it's a way of holding onto that thread of they're going to be able to survive this chaos, this water chaos, because they're gonna be created for the water, [01:44:00] but they're gonna be done in slightly different ways, right?

The husband wife dynamic. Anybody who's married knows a guy thinks about something from one direction and a gal thinks about it from another direction. You know? And that's kind of what makes marriage both infuriating and it helps us grow. And it wonderful at the same time, right?

I mean, that we have these two different ways of looking at things, and that's what, I kind of pulled from the frog and the toad. But there's just a dozen little details like that, you know, I know you and I were talking beforehand and it's like, should we talk about this? Should we talk about that?

And it's like, golly, we're never gonna get through it if we do that. I mean, That's right. We're a couple hours into this and there's still details to be talked about. But that's it in a nutshell. And I really think we captured the meaning behind it because all of the symbols and details make sense once you kind of plug it into that framework.

David: Yeah, that's right. And we've talked about before how you can tell if you're on the right track with what something means if [01:45:00] a light bulb comes on and it illuminates everything around it. Right? Yeah. And yeah, so I felt like that's what happened with this story, with the takes that both of us were taking on it because yeah, it's like every little detail now pretty much makes sense to me.

And the first time I read it, I certainly did not have that sense. <Oh yeah.> There was a lot of head scratching the first time I read it. 

JR: Yeah, you had a feeling about it and you said earlier that you had the idea that, man, this means something. I wanna come back and dig. And that was sort of the fun of kind of dissecting this story is we had a chance to really kind of read it several times.

And of course we talk about it off air and kind of dig and figure out what it means. There's just a satisfaction when it all, it's like that Lego click. I've said that before. When that Lego clicks together, you're like, that's it. These two things were made for each other. And that's when you understand the symbols, that's the satisfaction you get from it.

David: Well, my final thought is just the fact that we've talked about all this stuff, but just stepping back, I don't know, it really [01:46:00] jumps out at you that she's the hero of this story.

JR: Oh, no doubt.

David: And that's why I love the contrast or the comparison with Penelope in the Odyssey because she's meant to be not just a domesticated housewife in that story. She's meant to be one of the heroes of the story that protects the kingdom. And in a very similar way, I think she is undoubtedly, the wife here is undoubtedly the hero in this story. The lengths that she goes to . We talked about the full moons, the time spans, the lengths that she goes to, to fight, to save this relationship.

I don't know. Yeah. Kudos. That's to her. Yeah. Like, well, that's why she's definitely the hero. 

JR: That's why I read that section where, she's walking around the pond and sobbing. Sometimes she's screaming out loud, sometimes she's silent. Because once you understand that this is a wife trying to save her marriage, man, that resonates.

It resonates deeper than if you just took on face value that her husband's been swallowed up by this water pond, right? Yeah, that's right. And [01:47:00] so it just, man, that just was so, it was just so deep when you understand that Yeah. She's fighting for her marriage. 

David: Yeah. Wow. Alright, so we have one more to go.

JR: Okay. What are we doing next episode?

David: We are doing King Thrushbeard.

JR: Oh yeah, that's right.

David: Well, so this one, I think the moral of the story is fairly obvious, but it's also a beautiful picture that has a lot of biblical parallels. Let's put it that way. 

JR: Okay. So like, Red Riding Hood, the surface moral is fairly obvious, but then there's all kinds of subtleties to it. You know, one thing that, I'm glad you brought up King Thrush beard, because I kind of wish we had at the end of every episode said what we were gonna read next. 'cause that would give the listener a chance to go, man, go dissect it yourself before you listen to the episode and see if you come up with some of the same things we did. That's been the fun of this is, well, Red Riding Hood, there's a lot of people out there having that conversation.

But with some of these others, man, it's difficult to find information on it, you know what I mean? [01:48:00] And so, yeah, it's, I plug it into chat, GPT sometimes, like, what would the significance of this be? You know? and so yeah, it would be more interesting if you could sit down and read it and have these thoughts on it yourself, and then listen to the episode.

So yeah, next couple weeks, go out and read King Thrush Beard and see if you can find the same patterns. Taking all the information from the previous episodes that we've kind of tried to point out about symbolism, things like that. See what you can come up with that. And yeah, join us in a couple weeks.

David: Yeah, and as we said last time too all you gotta do is Google 'em. They're all online. You can find 'em. If you just Google King Thrushbeard, you'll be able to read it online. And if you're enjoying this series, tell your friends. This is a little bit different series than we've done in the past, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

So if you're enjoying it, the best way to get word out is word of mouth. Recommend this podcast to people who you think would enjoy it. And we'll talk to you next episode.

JR: Alright, we'll see you next time. [01:49:00]