A Journey Through Ephesus: Ephesians 3 and the Eleusinian Mysteries

In this episode of the Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast, we explore Paul’s use of mystery religion language in his letter to the Ephesians. ✨ We unpack key words like mystery, revelation, and insight, showing how Paul connected the gospel to the cultural context of his time. 🏛️

We also consider today’s growing hunger for mystical experiences and how the church can respond with depth and meaning. 🌌 Finally, we reflect on the relevance of Paul’s message for our world today and preview what’s coming next—our discussion on the Armor of God. ⚔️

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Read the article 📖: Images in Ephesians

Explore 🗺️: Explore Ephesus

Watch 🖥️: The Site of Eleusis and the Eleusinian Mysteries

Buy the book 📕(Amazon): A Journey Through Ephesus

Buy the book 📕(Apple): A Journey Through Ephesus

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Chapters

• 0:00 Discussing Conspiracy Theories
• 6:57 Exploring The Eleusinian Mysteries
• 21:03 Paul's Use of Mystery Religion Language
• 34:05 Understanding and Insight in Mystery Religions
• 38:14 Paul's Use of Cultural Language
• 46:00 Modern Search for Meaning and Technology
• 51:47 The Role of Mystery in Religion

Transcript

The Eleusinian Mysteries

David: [00:00:00] So this is how you need to go live your life. And so a lot of the rest of Paul's letter actually deals with that side of things. 

JR: Okay. I believe you.

David: okay. 

JR: Okay. I don't know, conspiracy theories are popular now. What's your favorite conspiracy theory? Are there any right now that, pop out at you

that you halfway buy into?

David: uh, man, I don't really follow them. And the problem is a lot of 'em have turned out to be true recently. So it's hard to know.

JR: I know that's,

David: But, I heard

JR: Yeah, so I mean.

David: Someone recently talking about, how 9-11 was a, was a setup job. And I'm like, come on, are we still on this? But then it was someone I kind of respect and they mentioned a couple facts that I was like, I don't know.

I haven't heard that, but I'm too tired to get into it. So that's, that's the latest conspiracy theory that I actually raised an eyebrow <yeah.> You know? So I don't [00:01:00] know. You're

JR: Well, that's one of those. Oh yeah, no, I love them. I mean, I don't buy into all of 'em. I like hearing them and the 9-11 stuff, I've heard a bunch of that stuff that doesn't really resonate just because it's so, I don't know. It's just, there's just too many people that would have to be involved.

But like you said, you said earlier that that, uh, conspiracy theories are kind of making a comeback and it's because there's several of 'em that are real or, you know, have turned out to be something to it. I don't know, maybe it's just when you have this megaphone of the internet and all of those conspiracy theories can be popped out there, you know, out of hundreds of them, I'm sure there are a couple of 'em that hit a little bit close to home.

You know, some of the old CIA stuff, project Blue Book, all that kind of stuff. It is just kind of fascinating. And it wouldn't have been carried in the news 30, 40 years ago. But now we kind of have these avenues of information that you can go back and say, holy cow, they really did hire Nazi scientists to work on our space program or, you know, the CIA really did [00:02:00] dope Johns and set up brothels to test LSD.

But if you'd said that 30 years ago, you'd be like, oh, okay. That sounds, you know, that, that just sounds bananas. So I don't know if the UFOs and stuff are real, but the stuff that does turn out to be real is kind of wild.

David: It is. Yeah. And I, and I think we were talking just before you hit record actually about something else, but I think if a conspiracy theory is almost too outlandish in the internet age, it's very easy to just disprove and then just loses steam, which is, I wonder if that's a reason why the phenomenon is the ones that have some legs to them actually are because they may be based in a little bit of truth. You know what I mean?

Whereas 30 years ago, we were talking about growing up in the eighties,you know, it's like you could tell us anything. So we were talking, yeah, you could tell us anything in the eighties and we believed it. 'cause you couldn't disprove it really, right? You know, and there was all these urban legends and you're like, oh, had, did you hear about the guy, who picked the hitchhiker up, you know, well? It's complete fabrication. It's an urban legend. [00:03:00] But nowadays you can easily debunk that. You can just Google it. And so, I don't know, maybe that's, why conspiracy theories today have a little more legs to them. I don't know. What do you think?

JR: Well, it's not a conspiracy theory, but just recently I've kind of read a couple articles about quicksand in the eighties movies. And, uh, and the funny thing is there's just no such thing. There's never been such thing, and you're like, come on, man. That was every Scooby Doo cartoon. I mean, this's just every kid's cartoon had quicksand in it.

And so, yeah, I was afraid to go in the woods. 'cause you never know when you.

David: danger If you grew up in the eighties,

JR: Yeah. You knew dozens of people who almost died, you know, getting stuck in quicksand.

David: Right. if someone moved

JR: but it is,

David: someone left town and you didn't hear from 'em, you're like, oh, quicksand, got 'em.

JR: Yeah. Quicksand got finally, I knew it. Yeah, exactly. But it is funny 'cause, so I think you may be right that maybe conspiracy theories have a little bit more traction because the ones that can easily [00:04:00] be disproved, like we were talking about the Satanic panic of the eighties and, the childcare satanic worshiping rings and stuff like that, that was all, you know, just debunked to be completely false. And so it's really not a conspiracy theory anymore. But at the time, man, it was like, it was on Geraldo, it was on the nightly news. There were like serious people looking into this and saying, this is a problem.

And so, I don't know. So maybe the information age has both elevated certain conspiracy theories because they can't be debunked necessarily and squash some of the things that we believed in the eighties, because there's just can pretty easily be researched.

How can, yeah, how did nobody know that there was no such thing as quicksand? Or did, the writers know full well and just like, eh, the kids love it, you know?

David: I don't know. Yeah. But I have heard that since then is there really isn't any such thing as quicksand, but every late seventies, yeah, early eighties, yeah it was in every show and you believed that it was [00:05:00] everywhere. You're like, one day I will succumb to quicksand. It's only a matter of time.

JR: Yeah. There was something about growing up in the eighties that just lent to, the world's full of mysterious stuff out there, and I was listening to a podcast, I think it was today, but it, he was, it was a astrophysicist and he was saying that back in the fifties, obviously before our time, the back in the fifties, people just generally believed that, yeah, there's probably people on Mars.

And there was this guy that, uh, apparently with a telescope could look up there and see canals on Mars. And so it was generally believed by, I guess, popular culture that there are martians, there are movies about martians and they pretty much believe, yeah, they're probably up there.

I mean, you can kind of see their little roads and things, uh, turned out to be just kind of empty canals or whatever, but.

David: Yeah.

JR: Anyway, it's funny because we're in this age of information and so kind of all the mystery is gone now, you know, and, I don't know, I kinda liked it back in the eighties when there were these kind of crazy unknown things, that we're out there that you never [00:06:00] know if you're gonna run into or not, like poisonous, you know, crazy pythons in the United States or quicksand or whatever else you came up with.

David: Well, hey, there are pythons in South Florida.

JR: There are now.

David: There are now, yeah.

JR: Uh, yeah, I've heard that, that now that's from pets, you know, but, uh, yeah, I don't know, you'd see a cartoon or read a comic book and you just assumed that must be in the woods. We had a urban legend growing up that there were wild boars, in the woods behind our church.

And, uh, so, you know, after church you'd see how far to the woods you could get, and then some kid would see one and everybody would run and things like that. And then you grow up and you're like, man, this is like, 30 feet to somebody else's backyard. These aren't woods.

David: It was the, it was the forest in the fairytales right to us growing up and yeah,

JR: Right?

David: You walk 10 feet and you're in a residential neighborhood. That was the reality of the woods behind the church.

JR: Yeah. Yeah. But we made something of it. So, anyway. Well, today we're gonna be talking about mysteries. So I kind of [00:07:00] thought, well, let's throw out some good old classic mysteries that we've had and you've already squashed him 'cause you're not a conspiracy theorist. So, I mean, I could do a whole podcast on Bigfoot or the Moon Landing being faked or whatever, but

David: Maybe

JR: you don't seem interested in that.

David: Maybe we'll do a stranger things on it. Something like.

JR: Yeah. New Stranger Things episode. Okay.

Alright. So today we're continuing in Ephesians, we're in Ephesians chapter three, and Paul kind of jumps into this idea of a mystery religion. And, you and I went to Eleusis, it's outside of Athens. And so I guess that's where we're gonna start kind of talking about what's going on with the Eleusinian Mysteries and how that ties into Ephesians chapter three.

David: Yeah. And our listeners are probably going, how are they gonna tie this into something Paul wrote? Right. But we'll get there. No, so last time we went to Greece and I told you, I'm like, I really want to visit the site of Eleusis. Because I had heard a lot about it and because I had studied some of Ephesians, previously, there is this tie in [00:08:00] that we're gonna talk about today, but the last time we went, yeah, I was like, I really want to visit Eleusis. So we wound off the highway and we got in this little town, and gosh the GPS was telling us where to go, and we didn't think there was gonna be anything there. 'cause you never know really. You know, it's like, oh, here's the

JR: Well, most of the ancient, yeah, most of the ancient sites kind of pop up. They're a little bit, some of 'em are in the middle of towns, but I don't know. You kind, the GPS kept on saying like, you're a hundred feet away. And I'm like, I, well, you know, all I see is houses. There's nothing around here.

But sure enough, you literally turned a corner and it's like, oh yeah, there it is. Yeah.

David: You turn the corner and you know, you pass this guy's house and there's a stray cat, and then all of a sudden this whole archeological site just opens up to you and okay, I think we're here, right,? 

JR: Yeah. And right on the other side of the road is some kind of rundown houses, and so it just wasn't a very touristy place. So yeah, we didn't know until we were right up on it.

David: Yeah. But it was a very neat site. 

JR: [00:09:00] Yeah.

David: We'll talk about it in a minute, but just to kind of dial our readers in. So, Eleusis was probably one of the most important religious sites of the ancient world because it was home to the Eleusinian Mysteries, it's just outside of Athens. Athens has a connection to it because, there's this procession, there's actually a temple of Eleusis in Athens, in the Agora. There's nothing left of it really, but they know where it was at.

And yeah, so there's this big tie into the Eleusinian Mysteries that was probably the most popular mystery religion, back in the ancient world.

JR: Right, and it was kind of typical of the ancient site experience. It's both kind of hard to imagine what it originally looked like, because obviously all the structures have been torn down and they kind of rebuilt some of it. But at the same time, it's easy to understand why that particular site was chosen.

You know, it was kind of on an elevated area, but not a mountain. So obviously the Parthenon, your breath is taken away just seeing it from a distance. 'cause it's on [00:10:00] this huge hill. And this was not anything like that, but it was on this elevated hill and it kinda, this elevated spot.

And you could see for miles and miles you could see the ocean on one side, and you could see, you couldn't really see Athens, but you could see toward Athens because it's kind of divided by a little mountain range. So you could see toward Athens and I don't know, the ancient writers would talk about witnessing the procession from Athens and kind of what a remarkable site it was.

And when you could look toward Athens, and you're in this elevated spot, you're like, oh yeah, I could imagine this. You know, they said that 3000 people at a time sometimes would walk from Athens. They would walk the sacred way and they would arrive at nightfall. So they're carrying torches.

And so when you're on site, you can really visualize how that procession along the sacred way would've looked. Don't they do modern processionals to Eleusis from Athens. Is that a thing or did I did. It seems like we had read something about that at the site. You know?

David: Yeah,

JR: it's like an annual festival or what,

David: kind of festival. But [00:11:00] yeah, I could see, could see some kind of festival. I mean, there's parts of a road in Athens and we saw this last time, of the Eleusinian Way, and it was actually the road that connected Athens to Eleusis. 

JR: Right.

David: Popular road. And yeah, if they would've gone over that first little hill, you could have seen 'em from miles away. You could have seen the procession coming to Eleusis that they did that once a year for the grand initialtion, right? And the other thing about the site that was neat, I think wasn't very impressive today, but there was kind of a cave there and a lot of it had been

JR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

David: I don't know, fallen apart or, destroyed or something.

But there was that little cave because part of the ceremony of the Eleusinian Mysteries is, it's kind of a symbolic death and resurrection cult, right?

JR: Right.

David: The cave would've been like the entrance to the underworld and it would've involved Demeter, right? And Persephone. So Persephone,

JR: Persephone. Yep.

David: So Demeter goes to the underworld, [00:12:00] gets her daughter six months out of the year, I think she's on the earth. And then six months outta the year, her daughter goes back to where she's Queen of the underworld with her hubby Hades, right? It

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: happy relationship. Actually, Hades is like

JR: Yeah,

David: a halfway decent guy though in Greek mythology.

He's not like the devil that we think of, but he's the ruler of the Underworld. So there's all that. 

JR: Close enough.

David: Close enough. Yeah. But part of the Eleusinian Mysteries was a symbolic death and resurrection. And when you quote rose again, you would have these insights into, what secret knowledge, right?

The spiritual world, the world of the gods.

JR: Yeah.

David: A better understanding of the world around you. And that was kind of the gist of it. So, already you can kind of see the parallels between, you know, Paul comes along and he's talking about death and resurrection, right? Die to self, be raised to a new life. And so, it kind of had echoes of this thing, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. The dying and descent and return, that type [00:13:00] thing. And you were saying earlier about the, it was the Plutonian cave by the way that just popped in my head.

David: Okay. Okay.

JR: Yeah, it was, again, that they saw that as the entrance to the underworld, and so I was like, oh, this is gonna be cool.

But again, it was a little underwhelming, but it actually, seeing it helped me frame some of these stories, you know, because it's not a typical cave, like if you've been to Mammoth cave or a big cave where you can't see the back of it. It wasn't a typical cave like that.

It was just sort of a scooped out section in the rock, you could easily see the back of the cave and that it doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't go down into a hole or anything like that. And so we hear like a story and expect to see this natural wonder that goes along with this fantastic story, right?

We explain the amazing feature with a cool story, right? So we'll see something like the Grand Canyon and there'll be some amazing story, mythical story maybe, that the Native Americans made up, you know, about how this canyon got there. So we see this amazing thing and we build a [00:14:00] story around it.

What they did is they start with the story. They start with the explanation of reality through the mythic stories, and then they find the location where the story took place. And in this case it was what the division between the earth and the underworld. And so they found this, I guess they found this little cave where the division between the earth and the underworld was thin, right?

It might not be this amazing natural feature like the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls or whatever, but it represents a place where the descent and return can be played out over and over.

David: Yeah.

JR: You know? So we mentioned it when we went to Delphi that it was just kind of this crack in the rock underneath the foundation of the temple there.

And it's where gases used to come out and they built a structure around it to kind of keep the steam in sort of like a natural sauna. And, at the Plutonian cave at Eleusis that's what they did. They built this little temple around this crack.

And you would step down, you remember the well that was built. The well walls [00:15:00] were still there, but again, it wasn't like this deep well that, you know, went down a hundred feet or anything like that. You could just kinda look and it went down whatever, 10 feet. And you're like, well, this is not a big deal.

But you could understand that they built the structure around it so that they could play out this descent and return, so they could do that over and over. This drama of the descent into the underworld. And so they would go into this temple. The gasses would be there, the steam would be there, they would go down into the Well, and then they would emerge.

And to your point, that they would come back with this secret knowledge because they kind of crossed over between the material world and the underworld.

David: Yeah. Yeah. And in the ancient world, first of all, there's no telling what that site may have looked like in the ancient world. You know? Who knows? Maybe the cave had caved in and it's pretty much filled in today. We don't know, but they would choose sites too, because at some point, someone got insight from the gods that this was a special [00:16:00] place. And like you said, it wasn't the grand nature of the place, but something happened there that people said, okay, we have to mark this spot. This is a sacred place. So that Happened too.

JR: Well, to tie it into, the biblical stories is the spot of the crucifixion, the tomb, you know, we don't know where those places are for sure. But there was a desire to kinda, I guess, pinpoint these locations. And so Constantine's mother, I guess got, filled with the Holy Spirit and said, I know where these places are. And she would walk around Israel, and she would say, here's where he was crucified. Here is where he was buried.

Here's the manger in Bethlehem. And she pointed out all these biblical sites. Of course, archeologists centuries later sort of said, yeah, probably not, but nice try. But there's just this desire to kind of locate where these stories started.

Now, obviously in Greek mythology, the stories are myth. So they could be, you know, the naval of the earth is in Delphi but it's just kind of interesting that there's kind of this pull for [00:17:00] all of us to want to be able to go to the place where the story started. The meaningful story, that you've built your life around, you know, where is that? There's just a desire to go see it and to put your hands on it, and that's what they kind of did at Eleusis.

David: Yeah. And it would've had a lot of sacred significance, the whole Eleusinian Mystery. So when we talk about Eleusinian Mysteries, we can start to maybe this towards Ephesians chapter three. We're talking about a mystery religion, which means that it wasn't just the standard belief system in the Olympic gods that most people had in Greece.

It was a secret religion, right? It offered insights into the spiritual world. And one of the things I always like to say is, it was kind of like Fight Club in that the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about Fight Club, right?

JR: Right. Yeah, exactly.

David: It was very secretive and so we don't actually know a whole lot about what it is because no one wrote it down at least you weren't supposed to. But we know that a lot of famous figures from [00:18:00] history were initiated into the Eleusinian Mysteries, and it was an active mystery religion for I think, a thousand years. And people like Socrates and Plato and Marcus Aurelius, they were all part of these Eleusinian Mysteries, right?

JR: Right. Yeah. Augustus, Cicero, I mean, really, anybody that was, anybody back in that time was an initiate and was part of the club, I guess?

David: Yeah. And I guess how secretive could it have been? Like all the influential people were part of it, but

JR: Well, I mean, they didn't put it on their social media 'cause nobody really knows what happened,

David: Yeah.

JR: at these things. So they kept it a pretty good secret.

David: Yeah, today we figured that was probably hallucinogens involved in the ri We talked about this drink Kykeon, they think that they think they kind of like figured out what it might be and, probably it's, what is it? It's like a fungus that grows on wheat?

JR: Yeah.

David: hallucinogenic properties.

JR: Right. Yeah. There were, [00:19:00] several stones and carvings that, you know, the recurring theme was the wheat, the flour, which was sort of the poppy or whatever. And what was the third one? There was a third something.

David: the, just a basket but it carried.

JR: Oh yeah, the basket, right. ' yeah, 'cause whatever was in the mystery potion was able to be carried in a basket from Athens.

And so they wrote this down that they would put all the stuff in the basket. Well, you know, yeah, you get a little bit of ergot on the wheat and some poppies and a little bit of beer or wine mixed in there and, right, you gotta party. And so that's where the,

David: about to see

JR: that's where, that's where the mystery's coming.

Yeah. You're gonna see the underworld.

David: Yeah. The underworld. Yeah, the unseen realm. You're about to see it all, right?

JR: Yeah, there you go. It's about to be right in front of your face. And so they would go through this thing, but again, there was something very transformative about it because, like you said, the most famous people of the time went through it and it was an honor to be included into it. [00:20:00] And people like Plato and Aristotle wrote afterward that it was one of the most significant events of their life.

And so, if it's having that much of a tremendous effect on these brilliant philosophers and leaders, then there really must have been something to it more than really good music, moving music or something like that, you know? There's something more going on.

David: Well, and we know today that hallucinogens can mimic religious experience like that's been documented. And I don't want to go down that path 'cause I don't want this to turn into a Joe Rogan episode where

JR: Joe Rogan. Yeah, sure.

David: gets directed to hallucinogens, right? But the point we're trying to make is that there probably was something truly psychologically transformative about it.

And we've said this about other things as well. It's much more than they just made this silly thing up and people went along with it. That wouldn't happen for a mystery religion to remain active for a thousand years. So we don't know exactly what happened, but, it did seem to be transformative in its [00:21:00] own way.

And it also became a rival to Christianity. And so when you look at Ephesians and the letter that Paul is writing, the reason we're talking about this today is that Paul uses language of mystery religion. And he uses it all throughout the book of Ephesians. And if you don't know what you're listening for or you don't know the context, it's easy to just read right over and go, well, I've read Ephesians 10 times and I don't see what you're talking about, right? So we're gonna try and help draw that out today. So should we just jump into the passage today and then we're gonna talk about it? Or do you have anything else to add?

JR: Yeah, let's go ahead and read the passage and then we'll pick it up on the other side.

David: So this is gonna be Ephesians chapter three. Now, Ephesians chapter one, we already talked about this a little bit, some of the words and language to pay attention to, but chapter one was about the plan of God. But today we're really gonna focus in on some of these words. But chapter three, verses two through 12, you're gonna take a listen to it and pay attention to some of the words that might [00:22:00] fall into this category of mystery religion words. And then we're gonna talk about it. 

Ephesians 3:2-12

AI Winston: Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

This mystery is that through the gospel, the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me to preach to the Gentiles, the boundless riches of Christ and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past, was kept hidden [00:23:00] in God, who created all things.

His intent was that now through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus, our Lord. In Him, and through faith in him, we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

I ask you therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

JR: Okay, there you go. Yeah. If you were listening for some of the mystery religion words, you obviously heard the word mystery. So, when Paul uses the word mystery in verse three, there, what would a first century Ephesian, someone who's steeped in these Eleusinian style rites, how would they have heard that word that maybe a modern listener would miss?

David: Well, if Paul says, I have a mystery for you, right? That's immediately gonna grab your attention, because, you know, you or your family members, people you know, are involved in some [00:24:00] of these my mystery religions, and it's not just the Eleusinian mysteries. We know the cult of Isis was active in Ephesus.

There were other cults as well. So when Paul says, "In reading this, you'll be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ." Just that phrase right there, it's easy for us to pass over that as a modern person, but ancient people would've heard that and they would go, oh, he's about to reveal something, right? He's about to reveal something about this mystery surrounding this person of Jesus Christ that he's been telling us about, right? And so just throwing the idea of mystery out there has a lot of connotations that we easily miss today.

JR: Yeah. Paul was very good. He was a master at using familiar cultural language to the people at the time, to point people to what he's saying is the mystery of Christ. And he knew automatically the words to use because he knew who his audience was and he knew that these Eleusinian Mysteries was the popular culture at the time.

And [00:25:00] so he knew that that would grab him. And so he was a master at that kind of cultural language.

David: Yeah, the word mystery alone is used, I think, six times in the book of Ephesians, and it's used much more in Ephesians than any other book. So it's not just a word that he drops once or twice, and you can see it elsewhere. He uses it over and over again in the book of Ephesians, as well as some of these other words. And you know, you said, Paul's a master at doing this. Once you understand some of these ancient rituals and rites, you actually see some of the stuff that Paul was writing in a very different light, because in other letters he wrote, you know, he talks about you're gonna put off this and then you're going to immerse yourself in Christ and then you're gonna put on something new.

Well, what is Paul describing there? He's actually describing an initiation rite, right? What any of these mystery religions would walk you through. You would actually go and you would unrobe, right? And you would die this symbolic death. And then they would put a new robe on you, [00:26:00] and then you would walk into this new life as an initiate.

And so it's not, like you said, I think it's a good point. It's not an accident that Paul uses this imagery. The big thing that differentiates what Paul's telling these people, and he says it over and over through his letters, and we need to say this at the outset, is that Paul is saying, what I'm offering you though is the truth, right? I'm offering you the real thing that you're looking for.

But Paul was not afraid to use these words and these images that they were used to hearing when it came to religious initiation, religious rites, mystery religions, right?

JR: Yeah. I just like how Paul is completely comfortable using cultural language and kind of whatever's popular at the time. And I don't know, it seems like the modern church kind of wants to get away from that.

They want to be separate, you know? And so whether you go back, you know, we were talking about eighties kind of growing up in the eighties, whether [00:27:00] it was sort of pushing back against rock and roll music or pushing back about boys having long hair.

It seems like Paul leaned into all that stuff. He saw what the culture was interested in, and he actually used that to point them in the right direction. And so I kind of think that's a little bit different approach than what, I don't know the way you or I grew up. And there are some people that are better at it than others, but sort of using whatever the culture is fascinated and fixated on at the time to actually point them in the right direction.

Paul was completely comfortable embracing that.

David: So yeah, I have this, I don't know. I have this theory that there's a difference between what Paul was doing and what we can sometimes do in the modern world, in the modern church, which is, we try to mimic current culture to be cool, right? And in the eighties, were on the theme of the eighties,

JR: Yeah.

David: there used to be this, I don't know, it was a company that put out these Christian t-shirts and they would take popular logos from, you know, corporate brands,

JR: [00:28:00] I remember this.

David: You know what I'm talking about?

But they would like put

JR: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

David: names or something and, instead of Coca-Cola, it would say Jesus Christ. And then underneath it would say he's the real thing. and it just, it always came across as cheesy to me. Right. And it's like,

JR: Yeah. 

David: We can't come up with our own stuff. We've just gotta take all of these, all these corporate logos and, all of their slogans. But I think there's something different. There's something fundamentally different than that. What Paul's able to do is actually, let's say, tap into the cultural themes of the time that he knew was absolutely pointing towards a deeper hunger for something. Right? So he's not just <Yeah.> pulling in every cheap whatever at the time.

Corporate logo, right? Or whatever slogan.

JR: Right.

David: But he was actually saying, so think of it this way. When he saw people hungering for these mystery religions, he actually saw a real hunger there, right? A desire for something deeper. And Paul says, [00:29:00] I can work with that. I can use that to point you to the real thing.

JR: Right.

David: And it wasn't just a bunch of cheesy stuff that Paul pulls in. He actually uses stuff that points to a what, a deeper longing in the human soul.

JR: Okay. So you see this in modern day with people like Jordan Peterson and, you know, there are people that kind of push away from Jordan Peterson. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't like his theology. He doesn't really come out and claim to be a Christian. And I agree with that, that, yeah, maybe we don't need to build our theology around Jordan Peterson.

But at the same time, if you're a smart person, you look at Jordan Peterson and the kind of wave that he's created and recognize that as a cultural hunger for something, he's tapped into something.

So whether you agree with him or not on a biblical level, he's absolutely tapped into something. And that's something to pay attention to. And I think that's what Paul, he did something like that. He saw what the culture was yearning for, and he just used some of that language to steer them in the right direction.

David: [00:30:00] Yeah, I think it's a good example. Yeah. If you're paying attention to what is driving the deeper hunger, like Paul, Paul had no qualms. You're right about just saying, look, if you're interested in this, I'll point you in the right direction to the, you know, I would say to the real thing, but I just use that as the Coke slogan, so I just ruined that. Anyway,

JR: Okay. You undercut your own argument there.

David: Right. Paul would say to the truth that is in Christ.

JR: Right.

David: So that's the word, mystery. But there's other words in that passage that I wanna get back to. We went on a bit of a rabbit trail. This could be like a two hour episode easily if we start talking about all these different things. Alright, so we

JR: Oh, I know. Well, that's why we edit these things.

David: That's what editing is for. So we talked about the word mystery, alright? Another one in verse three is he talks about the word revelation. So the mystery made known to me by revelation. Now that's another word that has become a church word almost. But it has definite connotations to a pagan [00:31:00] society. A revelation is literally, I'm going to reveal something you, right?

It means, to disclose the truth. And it's interesting because, you know, the book of Revelation sometimes is called the Apocalypse of John because, the Greek word apocalypse is literally the word revelation. It's the same thing.

And so I, think sometimes we don't understand that word because we hear the word apocalypse. And of course we think of zombies. We think the end of the world. The revelation is

JR: Yeah.

David: us how the world ends, right? Well,

JR: Yeah.

David: what, that's not actually what an apocalypse was. So when Paul's talking about revelation, he's talking about how the world is going to be, what Well, it's back to the plan of God, right? How all things are going to be brought under the reign of Christ. So it's not about how the world is coming to an end, it's about actually how it's being brought into its fulfillment under the reign of Christ. Now, a lot of crazy stuff going to happen along with [00:32:00] that, but that's what that idea of apocalypse or revelation is referring to. Does that make sense?

JR: Yeah, no, I, that's cool that you've made that connection between, I didn't realize that, revelation, the original Greek word is apocalypse or stems from it, you know? So at first glance, it kind of seems strange that the ancient word means something so different than what we understand is the modern word.

But it's also pretty interesting that genuine revelation is a world shattering process, right? Or at least a worldview shattering process.

David: Yeah.

JR: And so, it is apocalyptic in a lot of ways. There's a good book that I just finished this just, I don't know if I can get my head around, but this, this is good.

No, it's a really good book. I just finished it. It's called, um, Think Again and it's great. But one of the ideas that the author lays out is that brain chemistry shows us that in our formative years we spend our mental energy trying to build and establish our beliefs.

But after that, we shift our [00:33:00] mental capacity into defending those established beliefs, right? After a certain age, we're just not wired to change our minds easily. So a true revelation is something that undermines our cherished beliefs, and it's seriously very apocalyptic.

David: Yeah. Peterson says something very similar to that, that I, thought's very good. That when you change your mind, when you change your worldview, literally your current view has to die, right?

JR: Yeah. 

David: Especially the older you get, that can be a very unsettling process. Like you said, it's almost an apocalyptic thing. Like I have to actually let this belief that I've held for a long time die. And which is why, people are so difficult to change their minds, right? Because its too painful of a process to actually change my worldview, even if it's a better worldview than the one I have right now. Because

JR: Right. Yeah.

David: almost. Yeah. That's a good way of

JR: Yeah. So the two words are not as disconnected as we think, maybe.

David: Yeah. That's right. But, you [00:34:00] know, revelation I think is, well, we think of the book, the End of the World, right? But it,

JR: Yeah.

David: it, had more of this connotation of, I'm about to reveal, I'm about to disclose hidden truth to you. That would be that idea of revelation, right?

So a couple other words. He uses understanding, in verse four, he says, "In reading this, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery." Wow, there's three words right there, right? Understanding, insight, and mystery.

So we think, well, understanding that's a pretty common word. But again, it actually is related to mystery religions. It means to perceive with the mind is understanding. It's like to grasp something with your mind, right? When you understand it.

JR: Yeah. It's that light bulb moment.

David: Yeah. Yeah.

JR: And listen, when ideas suddenly click, it often feels like a gift from God. You know, the ancients would say they were visited by the muse or whatever, you know, haven't you experienced that sort of, that light bulb moment where, yeah, [00:35:00] stuff come and it's like, man, where did I come up with that? But it's so, I don't know, insightful. That's, you know, that word understanding is a little bit deeper than simply, I read this chapter in the math textbook, and I think I understand how to do advanced calculus or whatever, right?

David: I told you once, I think I told you this, that it was the craziest thing that I was trying to fix this problem at work, and it was a complex formula as part of a dashboard. And I couldn't figure it out. And like two days I couldn't figure it out. I was Googling things, AI, all that. And like the third night I went to sleep and I had a dream and in my dream, this is crazy. In my dream,

JR: Yeah.

David: I figured out how to do it. And I woke up the next day and I said, I think that'll work. And so I log onto my computer and I do it and it works. I mean, how does that happen?

JR: That is, that's cool. Yeah, no, I've had stuff similar to that. I've gotten in the habit of just walking away. I mean, I like to fix things that are broken. So [00:36:00] I mean, I don't always know what to do, but I've gotten in the habit of just walking away from it because a lot of times, now the dream that is kind of cool, but a lot of times it just pops in my head and I'm like, yeah, I think this'll do it.

And then I can't wait to get home and give it a shot. And yeah, I mean, it pulls together. But that is kind of wild that your subconscious mind and a dream can come up with that.

David: say that it's happened really since then, but yeah, I had that one moment and that was crazy. But that's the word understanding and the similar word insight, that's also in verse four, you know, insight like you said, it's that burst of insight, right? When suddenly everything comes together. I think you and I had this when we were reading the fairytales, you know, go back to the fairytales. So

JR: Oh man. Yeah.

David: and you go, I don't like those British guys. We listen to, you know, what, what does this mean, A talking frog, I don't understand, you know?

JR: This doesn't make any sense who wrote this, right?

David: That's right. But then

JR: But they got cool accents.

David: They're fun to listen to. But when you [00:37:00] start to understand the pattern and the meanings, then you go back and then the insight just jumps off the page at you, right? And you go, how could the frog not talk? Right? How could it not be a flounder? So we talked about,

JR: Yes,

David: that's that idea of 

JR: I know.

David: insight, right?

JR: No, I'm glad you brought that up. 'cause I can't tell you how much our fairytale series has changed the way I think about books and movies and even like current events. I made the mistake of bringing up fairytales when I was talking to a buddy of mine, we always argue about politics and I think I said something like, dude, like that's the wolf dressed as grandma, you know, and he just thought I was nuts.

But it does, it applies in so many ways. Once you understand the pattern and once you understand the symbolism and man, you know, these crazy stories have these deep symbolic meaning. And so it is, it is a burst of insight that actually applies to all kinds of things in our everyday life. And that's how you know you're on the right track.

That what these fairytales and what these [00:38:00] myths, sometimes what they were trying to do is trying to explain reality. And so sometimes when you come face to face with that reality and you can go back to the myth or the fairytale man, it just all comes together and you get this burst of insight.

David: Yeah, right. So that's how those words relate to this idea of mystery religion. No, it'll give you insight, it'll give you understanding, knowledge. And then in verse five, he also talks about, that which was not made known to people in other generations. So it was hidden has now been revealed. And there again, that idea of, uh, revealed is a form of that word apocalypse again. So it's the revealing of something. It's revelation, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: And so all of these words, I mean just in verses three through five, right? Those are densely packed with all of these words that would resonate with someone who's looking for what, more insights into the spiritual realm so they could figure out how to better manage their life in the pagan world.

Right? And then Paul comes along [00:39:00] and uses all these words, right? And then it builds up to verse six. So he says, the mystery is this. Now that right there should get an ancient reader's attention, right?

JR: He's already drawn him in pretty good with some of this language, right? And then he's just gonna pop it out and give you the answer for free. Here's the mystery.

David: Yeah, there's no paywall at this time, right? 

JR: Yeah. But yeah. You can imagine a drum roll.

David: So he says the mystery is that through the gospel, the gentiles are heirs together with Israel members together of one body and shares together in the promise of Jesus Christ. So really what he's doing there is just, he's repeating what he said in chapter one in the prayer, which is what we said Paul likes to do. But he says, this is the mystery and it's this whole thing of, this was the plan of God, that Jews together with the Gentiles will come together, to form the church, the people of God. And that's the big reveal in Paul's letter, I think is, is verse six [00:40:00] actually.

JR: Well, yeah, and if the mystery is that Jews and Gentiles are co-heirs, well, that really reframes the idea of election. You know, we talked about in episode one, not as who's in and who's out, but as, what being a child of God was meant to be from God's plan all along, right?

David: Yeah. And remember what he was doing is he's trying to convince the Gentiles here in Ephesus that they are part of this plan, that they're not an afterthought. That just because, you know, this was a Jewish thing in the Old Testament, that this applies to them. In fact, he says that's what the great mystery is, is God intended now at this appointed time for you to join in to what he's doing along with the Jews. You're going to together form the people of God. 

JR: Do you think that's why he's using the language of the culture at the time that he's trying to meet people where they're at, you know, he is trying, to meet them where they're at, being that they're gentiles and being that, hey, I know that you've got your own mystery religion, but here was God's plan all [00:41:00] along.

And the real mystery is that you can be in with the elect, right? The elect being the Jews initially. And now the ultimate plan is that all of us can be brought in together. So he is kind of meeting people where they're at and using their categories, to reveal a deeper truth.

David: Yeah. And like we'd said earlier, he didn't hesitate to draw on cultural images in order to point people in the right direction. Again, in Paul's worldview, Paul can do this because he believes, of course we do too. He believes that the gospel offers the true pattern of the plan of God, right?

It's not actually in Eleusis. It's not actually in the cult of Isis. It's not in the Roman emperor, right? It's the person of Jesus Christ. He's like, this is the truth, so I'm gonna point you in that direction using language you're used to. You know, we talked about how I think in Paul's worldview, the gospel is the best way to understand the pattern of reality. [00:42:00] And I think that really resonates with me because when you understand that it's the best way to understand the pattern of reality, then you actually do feel free to see what other people are grasping at and saying, No, what you're looking for is this, and I can point you in the right direction, right? I, I don't know, does that make sense? 

JR: No, it does. And, if you're the type of person that thinks the Bible is a bunch of do's and don'ts, then you're gonna fixate on those things like the Pharisees. And all you're gonna worry about is, oh, you know, I, think you're going too far away and you're doing too much of this and not doing enough of that.

And, if you see the gospel as a pattern of reality, then exactly what you said, you're free to kind of get away from the restrictive rules and to recognize that religion is something more than just a bunch of lanes that you have to stay in your whole life and squash all your fun and, you know what I mean?

It's trying to lay out reality. And once you're okay with [00:43:00] that, then you can actually use that and steer other people in the right direction, just like Paul's doing.

David: Yeah, that's right. And we know that Ephesus was a very, gosh, there was a lot going on, religion-wise in Ephesus. And all you gotta do is go back and read the account of Acts, I think 18, 19, 20, where Paul spends time in Ephesus. 'cause he encounters all kinds of crazy things going on there during his time. Acts chapter 19, verse 18. I'll just read these real quick. Many who believe now this is taking place in Ephesus. "Many of those who believe now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number of them who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly while they calculated the value of the scrolls. The total came to about 50,000 drachmas, which is a lot of money. And in this way, the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power." So it's talking about these idea of there was widespread practice of sorcery.

Now it mentions this idea of [00:44:00] scrolls, in the ancient world, the other thing you could do is you had scrolls.

They found pieces of pottery with curses written on them. Sometimes you see like, um, what is it, like a copper scroll that would have things incribed on them that was like curses and, you know,

JR: Right.

David: things like that. So all these things were very popular in the Roman world. And when I was doing some research on Ephesians a while back, there's even this thing called the Ephesian letters. They're not really sure what it is, but it was a series of letters that would be etched on maybe a scroll or something. And it was thought to have magic power. And so this is the world that Paul is trying to steer towards Christ. And so when you understand now, there wasn't Temple of Eleusis in Ephesus because it didn't necessarily have a temple everywhere. You had the one in Athens and then you had the site of Eleusis, but it wasn't a religion that had temples everywhere. 'cause it was secretive, right? It was Fight Club.

JR: Mm-hmm.[00:45:00]

David: We know that it was full of, you know, temples to Isis. I think there was temples to, Hercules. Right? A temple of Apollo. Like all these things. So my point is like, all you gotta do is read Acts and you could see what there was sorcery going on. There were all these attempts to try and understand the spiritual world, let's say. 

JR: And I love this story because it's just so dramatic. Like people literally burned their old sources of mystery once they encountered the real thing.

David: Yeah.

JR: To go back to that apocalyptic, earth shattering idea, you know, that they're ready to throw their most valuable possessions in some degree, just burn 'em to the ground as a symbol of, yeah, burning the old idea down to make room for the real thing that they've encountered.

David: Yeah, that's right. It's that same idea of an old worldview had to die, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: They were willing to actually burn it, to let it go.

JR: Yeah,

David: Yeah. That is cool.

JR: Well, [00:46:00] yeah. I mean, listen, we see this kind of all the time, we see this in the modern day. Yeah, we're seeing this kind of rationalistic, scientific worldview. We're kind of seeing it coming to an end.

And, you know, you and I have talked about this, and as hard as it is to believe, we're seeing the scientific worldview crumble even in the midst of all these amazing technological breakthroughs. And not because science quote unquote is wrong. It's because it's becoming obvious that it's incomplete.

It's leaving people without meaning, right?

David: Yeah. 

JR: It's interesting that the more we understand and can harness the secrets of our physical world, the more we're drawn to understand the spiritual world. Like I wonder why that is. It's a little counterintuitive, right?

David: Yeah. And I think to start to tie this together then what is the takeaway of Ephesians using all of this language of mystery religion? And I think it's what you're starting to hit on is as we look at this in our modern world, first of all, we're [00:47:00] coming through this era, like you said, where science purported to have all the answers, right? We're more technologically advanced than we've ever been. And yet there is this kind of undercurrent or countercurrent of hunger for mystery. And I think that's exactly right. And I don't know, you and I were talking the other day a little bit about this. When we're so technologically advanced, why is it that there is a growing hunger or there's a growing, you see it in different ways, right?

Talking about reading the culture, which is what Paul does, but like, why is there renewed interest in UFOs all of a sudden? Why is there,

JR: Right.

David: I hear people, I haven't seen this personally, but I hear people talk about how occultism is back on the rise, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: Hallucinogens, all you gotta do, again, listen Rogan. 

JR: We mentioned that earlier. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

David: In this like ultra scientific, rational culture, why is it that there's this undercurrent of all of these people grasping for mystical experiences?

JR: Yeah. It seems [00:48:00] to go along with it. It's something like, you know, when you're broke, you spend all your time trying to put food on the table. But, when people become rich and sort of all your desires are met, you discover that money doesn't bring happiness or meaning, and that leads to a crisis. You know?

If millions of dollars doesn't bring fulfillment, then what in the world will, right? You know, And so they kind of hit this crisis. And so, you actually see a crisis, you see a increase in suicide, in, just mental issues that's not a poor man's problem.

That's a rich man's problem. And it's because when you're poor, you're always telling yourself, well, a little bit more money, or, get in the house or get in the whatever, that's gonna bring fulfillment. And you may spend your whole life trying to reach that and you never quite do it, but it's always out there.

But when you're rich, you find out that there's nothing to it. And so now you've got this big existential crisis in your life that you're like, well, what's gonna fill that gap now? And so I think, it's something like that, is that [00:49:00] technology, you know, before all this technology hit us, I think that it was always out there, you know, we're gonna have the flying cars and we're gonna have this technology, and that's gonna mean that we only work 20 hours a week and we're gonna get so much more from less. You know? And the people the futurists, they painted this picture of basically all of us kind of laying around and the robots would do the work for us.

And were obviously not there yet, but at the same time we also see, yeah, the chances of us working a 10 hour work week is pretty much zero. That we're getting so much more done because of the technology we have of computers and the internet and things like that. But we're still working our fingers to the bone.

And so this promise of less work and more leisure time, that never really came. And so maybe it's something, maybe it's something like, we've got all this technology and there's still wars and there's still people murder each other and we're still working our fingers to the bone and we still maybe can't afford [00:50:00] to buy the house, you know?

And so, I don't know, maybe it ties in to a deeper search for meaning outside of technology. Just like you would search for a deeper search for meaning outside of money if you had it.

David: Yeah. I wonder if a search for meaning, if a person a thousand years ago would just laugh at you. 'cause like meaning was, I hope I survived to 30. Right? Or my wife doesn't die in childbirth. Look, it's legitimate that we search for meaning, but maybe it is more of a, we have more time to sit around and think about it. And the more we think about it, the less we realize we have any meaning. And it's not found in AI and it's not found in all the new technology and the new iPhone and the better car and all that, you know? So maybe it's that idea of that it's being magnified right now. 'cause you do hear people talk about we're in a meaning crisis. And I don't know whether that's a result of technology or whether, I don't know. You think every generation goes through it?

JR: Maybe but I [00:51:00] also think that the people that are behind the technologies are making promises that they can't fulfill.

David: Sure it's a Utopian vision, right?

JR: Right. Yeah.

David: The utopia is the promise of technology. And clearly, I think we're getting to the point where we realize that technology's not going to usher in a utopia. And then maybe that's the way to think about it. So, okay, so what is it? And that's of course where I think Paul would swoop in and say, I have the answer for you, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: in the gospel.

JR: Yeah. And so maybe that's, I mean, maybe this is the exact time in history to take the cue from Paul and put your finger in the wind and see where the cultural winds are blowing. And take advantage of this kind of meaning crisis that we've got in our culture, and point people to the real source of meaning.

David: Well, okay, so there's another thing that I was thinking about that occurred to me when looking at Ephesians chapter three and why Paul focuses so much on mystery. I think the mo, well, let's say the [00:52:00] churches that we grew up in, right? say the modern church I think has spent so much time, say the last 200 years, is demystifying the Bible. And look, some of it is understandable, right? Because they were trying to answer questions raised by people who were saying, oh, this book is just full of myth, right? There's nothing to it. So they were legitimately trying to answer those questions. But I wonder if we went too far in stripping the Bible of mystery. Because think that's another product of the rational scientific world is, well now we have this book and we understand it completely, right?

There is no more mystery. We have all the answers. And it's funny because at the same time, the church has done that, all of a sudden the culture has shifted to where the culture is saying, give us the mystery, right? Give us these insights, give us any kind of understanding of the spiritual world and how to derive meaning in life.

And I sometimes wonder if the church is almost caught in this shift to where [00:53:00] we're answering questions that the culture isn't an asking anymore.

JR: No, I think that's it. And if we had just stayed anchored and not panicked when the culture shifted 50 years ago, we'd be perfectly positioned to meet this meaning crisis head on now, right?

David: In some ways, Paul is reminding us that the church should have always been the possessor of mystery and we shouldn't have apologized for it. 

So a lot of times some of these well-known atheists, and I'm thinking of I think Alex O'Connor, Sam Harris, you know Richard Dawkins, right? I hear them on some of these podcasts and I think sometimes the person who is trying to debate them gets sucked into this, the same trap, like trying to remove the mystery.

JR: Yeah.

David: think especially nowadays, it's almost like I want someone to go, yeah, it's a mystery, but you're gonna have your mind blown if you will let yourself immerse in this mystery, right? Like that.

JR: Right, right.

David: people I think are hungering for today.

And we don't always have to [00:54:00] have all the answers. And I don't know, sometimes I listen, I've listened to a number of these debates and sometimes I just get to this point where I'm like, man, just say, yeah, it's a mystery. You just have to immerse yourself in

JR: own it. That's okay.

David: Yeah.

JR: Right. But I think you're right. I think the mainstream churches, from the eighties and nineties kind of felt the need to downplay the supernatural because it opened them up to scientific criticism, maybe. Right. And in a lot of ways, they were trying to play a game by someone else's rules.

And in the process, they got caught trying to explain spiritual truths through materialistic logic and that created some unnecessary contradictions. Right? We've talked about this before, that if you treat Genesis like a scientific textbook creation of the world, then you get bogged down in defending a bunch of positions that the text never intended to claim to begin with, right?

And so then you say, how much time and unnecessary debates were held about the [00:55:00] earth being the center of the universe when the Bible never made that claim to begin with. And so there's always a disconnect, I think, between biblical truths and maybe biblical culture. And the disconnect is what you put in there is that idea of mystery.

And Paul was comfortable with this idea of mystery, or at least presenting it as a mystery. Like, I'm not gonna lay it all out in the logical way that the Greeks like to talk and they would like to debate and carry through logically the philosophy and carry all these ideas out to its extent.

If you've read much Plato, you realize, man, they they zone in on any little misstep and try to work it to, you know, work it to its logical end that they're always wanting to get. Well, Paul's not playing by those rules. He's actually embracing the idea of mystery. And to your point, what you were saying is when you see the atheist argue with the theist, sometimes you see the theist try to play through the scientific materialistic rules.

And once [00:56:00] you do that, that's the fatal mistake. It's like, well, okay, you're playing by their rules and, how are you gonna explain the supernatural through natural means? And the answer is you're not. So you're gonna get caught downplaying it. Then you're kind of caught in a trap.

And you're right. I mean, I think there needs to be a space for mystery, and I think that's what we lost. Maybe, I don't know, maybe every generation kind of goes through this a little bit, but we certainly lost it a little bit in the eighties and nineties.

David: Yeah, I don't know where a lot of churches are at today. In fact, it's interesting 'cause the churches that are actually growing are the more liturgical ones that just unapologetically, it's almost like the liturgy itself is the mystery, and you just have to go experience it. And actually young people are flocking to those churches, right? And so,

JR: Yeah. I just heard a podcast talking about how the Orthodox, is kind of has a renewed resurgence and they're, you know, they're trying to figure it out. But I think you're right. I think that's at least part of the answer [00:57:00] to that is that, it allows for this mystery and allows for some of these things that we've tried to explain for the past 50 years through the scientific method and, you know, there's no meaning behind it.

David: Yeah. And so I don't know. That's my big takeaway I think from the letter of Ephesians, at least as it pertains to all this language of mystery religion, all throughout the letters. Paul unapologetically, picks up on the culture, looks at where the hunger is, and then says, I have the answer in the gospel. You know, we're not gonna, look at chapters four and five in Ephesians. Next time we're gonna talk about Ephesians chapter six. But chapters four and five actually talk about some of the practical ways to live, right? So, Paul really does this masterful job of introducing the mystery, but then says, here's the way you live this out. And he doesn't give them all the answers, but he does reveal the big mystery, right? Is that Jew and Gentile together, coming under the reign of Christ. That's the mystery. And the mystery [00:58:00] is maybe now like, here's how you live it out in your life. Here's the outworking of that. Because it's not just knowledge, right?

It's actually the pattern of reality, like we've said. So this is how you need to go live your life. And so a lot of the rest of Paul's letter actually deals with that side of things.

Alright, so to wrap all this up, I guess is, all of this actually reminds me of, I don't know if you ever read Everlasting Man by GK Chesterton.

JR: Oh yeah. Love Chesterton.

David: I had this kind of, all these notes written out, but I went back and I found this quote that I want to just share, from Everlasting Man, by Chesterton, "The moral of all this is an old one. That religion is revelation. In other words, it is a vision and a vision received by faith, but it is a vision of reality that faith consists in a conviction of this reality." I love that quote,

That says it right there.

JR: Yeah. That religion is revelation and revelation is apocalyptic. It is an earth [00:59:00] shattering, world worldview shattering, understanding.

David: Yeah. And it's the uncovering of reality, right? like he says, it's a vision of reality. So it's not just kind of a random apocalypse, it's actually a revealing of the pattern of reality. And then we're to align our lives with that, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: But that's that

JR: Well, I just like the idea of the pattern. The pattern of reality. That resonates. 'cause once you understand the pattern of something, then you can adjust. It doesn't matter if you live in the first century or the 21st century, then you can adjust whatever the culture is around you to that pattern.

Because it's not a prescriptive idea of, you know, I don't know. You run into this all the time, you know, what would Jesus have thought about betting on sports?

Or what would Jesus think about AI or the internet or social media and, if you're stuck in this prescriptive idea, you're gonna try to go back and you're gonna try to say, well, how can we fit the Bible into saying something about social media and making a commentary on [01:00:00] that.

And that's not really helpful. But once you understand that there's a pattern to reality, then you adjust the modern context to that pattern. And then things do start to fit and things do start to, I don't know, we are able to fall into that pattern a little bit more naturally, even though the things that we're dealing with in the modern culture is completely different than things that the first century Christians or non-Christians for that matter, are dealing with and are having thrown at them, right?

David: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I like in Chesterton's book. And he kinda walks Everlasting Man. He kind of walks through, well, a pattern. And so I was writing this down. So he says how the world started out with Paganism, right? And then Paganism led to mythology. Mythology is the stories to kind of attempt to explain what was happening in Paganism. And then mythology leads to philosophy, right? So now we're at Plato and Socrates who are kind of in both worlds, right? They talk about the myth, but then they're trying to [01:01:00] develop a higher philosophy out of them, right? So then philosophy really paved the way for Christianity. And after a long run of Christianity, then around the 1500s is this whole idea of rationalism, right? So for a while there it was like, well, we don't need Christianity more because we're figuring all this stuff out. Well, it's interesting because then Rationalism has led to Atheism, right? Well, and then you, what comes next after that is nihilism. So I think that's an interesting pattern is like rationalism and you can almost picture it as like climbing a mountain, right?

So it's like Christianity leads to Rationalism, leads to atheism, and instead of going higher and higher, it actually starts to descend. 'cause now we're like atheism, then nihilism. And 

JR: then

Mm-hmm.

David: after nihilism we're back to paganism, right? Because if you have no worldview at all, you're wide open to, again getting involved in like the occult and [01:02:00] different things that offer some kind of meaning.

And I, when I saw that pattern in Chesterton's book, I almost think, okay, so we are almost in the phase of nihilism and paganism. We're almost in this return to paganism. And I've thought that several times, right?

JR: No, I think we are in the return to Paganism and it's neat because Everlasting Man was written in what, the fifties or sixties? I don't know.

David: Yeah, early 1900s.

JR: It's not, it's

David: Yeah,

JR: Was it that old? Lemme see.

David: All right. Look it up.

JR: Yeah. 1925. Golly, for some reason, I think of Chesterton and CS Lewis as contemporaries, but Chesterton was a good bit older or before CS Lewis.

David: Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess so.

JR: Yeah. CS Lewis died the day Kennedy was shot. Did you know that?

David: No.

JR: Yeah. So he died in the what? Sixties or whatever. Okay. So anyway, yeah.

Chesterton wrote this in 1925. Is that not crazy? And now we're sitting there looking at that cycle and able to say, yeah, I think we're right here [01:03:00] back to Paganism. Which means the next step

David: Is

JR: mythology. And maybe that explains kind of our, yeah, return to the interest in these mythic ideas.

David: I think it's fascinating 'cause what it tells you then is exactly what you said. The way to reach a pagan culture is through stories that are embodied with meaning. And that's really what mythology is, right?

JR: Oh yeah.

David: And here again, like pay attention to what Paul's doing.

We talked about this before, but when we're talking about the Bible, then we're not talking about just a book of mythology. We're talking one that actually contains the story, the pattern of reality, right? Go back to what Chesterton said. It's the vision of reality, but we have to package it in the right story because that's what people,

JR: Yeah.

David: the Pagan culture is looking for, a story to make sense of it all.

JR: Right. And stories seem to be the only medium that communicate kind of both information and meaning at the same time. They've always been one of the most effective [01:04:00] bridges for the gospel also is you tell that through story. And so you kind of pack these stories with meaning. And you're right, that's what reaches a pagan culture that's coming out of nihilism.

Yeah. That's sort of just, there's no meaning in life. So of course we're gonna reach for all these hallucinogens and cults and even conspiracy theories that we started with. There's a desire to understand this, to find deeper meaning. And you're right, the right story can use that and point them the right direction.

David: Yeah. So bottom line, Paul kind of knew what he was doing.

JR: Yeah. Surprise, surprise. Maybe that's why this story has lasted so long, you know.

David: No, I seriously though, I think a book like Ephesians actually, when you understand how to read it, I think it's very relevant for our time and our culture today. I think that's why,

JR: Yeah,

David: There's a lot of interest in Ephesians and why I continually go back to it. And, to kind of wrap things up, I guess, you know, I forgot to do this last time, which is probably why I [01:05:00] don't sell any books.

'cause I always forget to mention that I wrote a book on A Journey Through Ephesus.

JR: Right.

David: But I did write a book called A Journey Through Ephesus. You can pick it up on Amazon or Apple or wherever you download eBooks as well. You can get paper copies on Amazon. I'm gonna put links in the show notes. But I do think that's the relevance of a book, like Ephesians for our culture today.

JR: Yeah. To embrace the mystery, right? And so when you read scripture, don't just read it for information. Be ready to encounter mystery and embrace that. And that's the story that Paul's trying to tell the Ephesians, about the Gentiles being brought into this new plan.

David: Yeah, and so I think we said this last time as well, but I would encourage you to go back and read through Ephesians. It's six chapters, so our next episode comes out in, you know, a couple weeks. So you actually have time to read through the book, a couple times and read it through this lens of Paul trying to reach a pagan culture and how that relates to our culture [01:06:00] today.

I guess that's what I would encourage the listeners to do. 

JR: Yeah. And when you do that, I think you just draw out the deeper thing that Paul's trying to do. 'cause Paul's doing two or three things at the same time, and in really a fascinating way. He's trying to tell the Jews that there is a broader plan to bring the Gentiles in. And that was always God's plan. So that's kind of scandalous to the Jews. And then he's also trying to get the pagans, or the Gentiles to be brought in. And he's using this mystery religion. He's using the cultural religion at the time, and he's drawing them in to this sort of mystery.

And he's got the hook in. And then the mystery is that, hey, this is God's playing all along. So he is doing two or three things. He's juggling some interesting balls and he's keeping 'em in the air and really a fascinating way. And when you understand that the culture of the time was kind of steeped in this mystery religion, that even gives another layer of what Paul's doing kind of in a brilliant way that he's able to pull off all these things and pull from all these different sources and still make it relevant for the ancient [01:07:00] reader at the time. And it's relevant for the reader even today because the way he explains it, it's timeless, you know? And so it just pulls you in that way. I love it.

David: Yeah, yeah. Agreed.

JR: Okay. So what you said you were going to chapter six, next episode. Where are we going with that?

David: to chapter six and we're gonna talk. Alright, speaking of mystery, we're gonna talk about the Armor of God. I say mystery because I'm still trying to crack that nut. I think there's more to that than what Paul's talking about. So we're gonna have that conversation next episode, but that's the last major image that Paul uses is the Armor of God.

So we're gonna talk about all the connotations of that.

JR: Huh? You're saying the metaphor runs a little bit deeper than maybe what's on the surface.

David: I think so. I think there's a lot of places you could take it. And, uh, yeah, we're gonna bat some of those ideas around next time.

JR: Okay. That sounds good.

David: Alright. Check the show notes because, there are a couple articles on the website. I've also failed to mention that we [01:08:00] have a whole thing on the city of Ephesus from our time there on the website, you can look at pictures, you can read, you know, the places we went there. And we also have a video on YouTube, on Eleusis that I'm gonna put in the show notes.

So check out the show notes. There's a lot of great information more information on everything we've been talking about, but specifically around Ephesus as well. We'll talk to you next episode.

JR: There we go. We'll see you.

David: Step back into the world of the New Testament with my book, A Journey through Ephesus. In it, I not only explore the historical and cultural setting of this ancient city, but also share my personal experience of walking its streets and standing where Paul once taught. It's part of my series that also includes a journey through Philippi and a journey through Colossi.

You can find a journey through Ephesus in print or ebook on Amazon and anywhere else where you purchase eBooks. [01:09:00]