Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast
Welcome to a podcast that bridges the past and present in a transformative exploration of the Bible and faith. At Navigating An Ancient Faith, we delve into the original context of Scripture, mirroring the perspective of its first listeners. Our travels have taken us to Biblical lands, such as Israel, Greece, Turkey, and Egypt. Through insights from these travels, as well as engaging discussions around philosophy and mythology, we traverse the journey toward our own spiritual transformation. Join us on this journey from ancient faith to modern devotion.
Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast
A Journey Through Ephesus: Ephesians 6 and the Armor of God
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In this final episode of our Journey Through Ephesus series on the Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast, we explore the Apostle Paul’s powerful imagery of spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6. ⚔️ We discuss how virtues like truth, righteousness, peace, and faith serve as essential armor for life’s battles. 🛡️ Drawing from Old Testament roots and Greek cultural context, we uncover how Paul’s audience would have understood the “Armor of God.” 📖 We also reflect on today’s challenges of character formation, offering insights on how to see life as a quest strengthened by God’s Spirit. ✨
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Explore 🗺️: Explore Ephesus
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The Armor of God
JR: [00:00:00] This is one of those things you just need to build a fire and start talking about, for four hours, instead of trying to, lightly mention it on a podcast that you've got limited time on.
I mean, listen, I, I realize we're kind of getting off track and all you gotta do is start getting me on supernatural stuff and
David: Yeah.
JR: The, the godly counsel and you've got me, you got me hooked. Yeah, so went to, uh, church the other day and a buddy of mine stops. He said he listens to the podcast and it was funny because, you know, he's an older man and he's, like one of my favorite people. And, I think he kind of humors us a little bit 'cause he's always got these questions about, what we talk about on the podcast.
But, he stopped me and he goes, all right, I've got a question for you this time. and so I thought we'd kind of kick off with maybe, a question that he had to ask, and I'll pitch it out to you. yeah, so he, he had just listened to the Temple episode that we had, the second Ephesians, episode. And he had listened to that and he had this question that really I hadn't thought about, but he, he asked the question, why is it that [00:01:00] in the new Jerusalem?
Why is there an altar in the temple imagery if Christ has already been. Sacrificial lamb. And I kind of really appreciated the question. and it's a great opener for this one. you know, a lot of Christians gloss over the presence of, an altar in Revelation. Right.
I something that I never really thought of. but if you believe like you and I do, that symbology is important and that it matters, then I think this question is pretty obvious. So I think it was a good read by the listener. And the question is more obvious the more I think about it, but it's also something we don't think about much. and if I can reword the question maybe a little bit, I think it'll help with this explanation. You could frame it as why is there still a reminder of sacrifice in a place where sacrifice was already complete?
Is that a fair way to state the question?
David: Yeah, I think that was the gist of the question. Why is there a need for an altar in the vision of the temple of the future? Right.
JR: Right,
David: And I guess we need to revisit this just a minute because in Ephesians chapter two, [00:02:00]we were talking about the function of temples. And one of the things we talked about was that in the Old Testament, Ezekiel has a vision of the future temple. Right? And
JR: right,
David: I had to go back and remind myself what the timeline was and what the references were because, and the point we're trying to make is this, that in the Old Testament, it is always God who gives the blueprint of the temple,
JR: right.
David: to avoid manmade temples in an effort to capture God, which is what the Pagans did.
JR: Right.
David: Yeah. So as we revisit it, it's a good question. So why does God tell him to build an altar? So Ezekiel has this vision, it does bear mentioning, I can't remember whether he mentioned that episode, but Ezekiel's vision is of the temple in the new Jerusalem. Not to be confused with the temple at the time of Jesus, 'cause the temple was rebuilt, but. Scholars say that when you look at the dimensions of the temple that God gave Ezekiel the blueprint for, it's much bigger than what was actually built by Herod. So that's the first thing to keep [00:03:00] in mind. Right?
JR: Okay.
David: And then of course the second place that this temple in the new Jerusalem is talked about is in a revelation.
So John has this vision of the temple and he sees all these activities going on in the temple. And to the listener's question, it was a good point 'cause I hadn't thought about this. He said, why is there an altar there? so I'll take my shot at it and then you can give your 2 cents. 'cause I think it's one of those, when you, when you look into it just for a couple minutes, you go, okay, this makes sense. So in the book of Revelation, I'll read two passages. Revelation six, nine says, when he opened the fifth seal I saw under the altar. Okay, so there's the altar of this temple. The souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. when you start to pull in symbolic elements, then that tells me that this altar, what functions as a memorial for those who had died
JR: Yeah. No, that's a good word.
David: for the cause of Christ.
Right.
JR: Yep.
David: And so I would say that's the first answer is the altar in the [00:04:00] new temple, in the new Jerusalem stands as a memorial. And we could even extend that to Christ himself, right?
JR: Right.
David: I was trying to think a good example. It's more of a, a reminder that we're going to have an altar to remind us that we don't need it anymore.
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Right,
JR: right. right.
David: Yeah,
So there's a very practical second point too. Also, and again, you can find it in Revelation. Um, another place in Revelation where it talks about the altar is Revelation 8:3. It says, another angel who had a golden sensor came and stood at the altar. was given much incense to offer and the prayers of all god's people on the golden altar in front of the throne. So there's this reference to the altar in front of the throne again. But what is the function of this altar? And we assume it's the same altar. Well, it's an incense holder, right?
JR: Yeah.
David: When you go back to the Old Testament, you have to remember that a lot of the sacrifices were animals,
JR: blood sacrifices, right?
David: a lot of the sacrifices were not also, so they were grain offerings, Right. They were drink offerings. [00:05:00] You burn incense. And so this place in Revelation talks about how, it was an incense that rose up to God. So there's a very practical aspect, and that is that just because there's an altar in the temple, it doesn't mean that there are blood sacrifices happening on it. So that's
JR: Yeah, no, that's, that's, yeah. That, that's a little bit of a narrow definition of, of the altar that it's simply a place where they only do blood sacrifices. There are other sacrifices. No, that's good.
Well, you've read, the Grimm's fairytale, the Juniper Tree. I know you have because it's in that book that we both have, and it's 200 now.
I don't know if you remember it.
David: Okay.
JR: again, it's one of 200, two or 300. Okay. And yeah, unfortunately this is not a fairytale episode, so I'm not gonna spend two hours breaking down the story. But anyway, in the Juniper tree, a boy is killed and he's buried. Under this juniper tree. And from this burial place, a bird emerges that, sings kind of this haunting song about the murder.
Right? And again, without getting into it, breaking down the story, [00:06:00] the juniper tree kind of becomes a living altar. It becomes something like an altar, where the sacrifice, where the boy's death is not only remembered, but it's also where, a kind of a justice and renewal flows out of and emerges from the tree.
'cause again, if you remember the story, the bird is singing this song over and over about the boy's murder. And the person who murdered the boy
David: Yeah.
JR: is constantly trying to kill the bird. It's co covering. You know, he knows justice is coming for him because the bird keeps him. Or you, you know, singing this song.
I'd have to look it up what the line was. You know, it's a classic fairytale where they constantly are repeating the line. But my point is, is that with that in mind, the altar becomes a memorial, like you said, of a past sacrifice. And that the tree in that story, kind of quote unquote remembers the boy's blood, right?
And it transforms it into a song, and that song becomes justice and that song becomes restoration. And so both of those images, both of those idea kinda show [00:07:00] how places of sacrifice can be redefined as places of memory, like you'd said, but also, what hope and transformation of the future, right? And, and so it's a site that I guess bears witness to suffering, or proclaims hope.
And so, to your point, you know, the, the altar in heaven, in the new Jerusalem is not for blood, it's for memory. It's for prayer. It's for surrender. Right. for instance, the motions that we go through in communion or the Eucharist, remember what he says? He says, do this in remembrance of me. And so the point of, of the Eucharist or communion is a memory. And so in that same way, the point of the altar in heaven is do this in memory of me, not the blood sacrifices are needed, but this is a memory of the transformation, the hope of the future.
That's kind of the way I saw, I, I thought that was a great fairytale. I actually reread it, because it popped in my head. And, it just tied in well with this idea of why have an altar in the new. Temple when you're not [00:08:00] gonna do blood sacrifices. And I think that's a pretty solid answer.
David: Yeah. It also reminds me of The Singing Bones. That's another fairytale where
JR: Right,
David: of someone who is murdered basically cry out for justice repeatedly. And so we don't wanna get on the fairytale. I was just thinking gonna get an hour into this and people are gonna be thinking, I thought they were gonna talk about Ephesians.
'cause we're still talking about fairytales, but we won't go down
JR: Yeah.
David: in that way, I think it functions back to that first verse in Revelation where it says the souls of those who had been slain. and if you think about it, if this is the new Jerusalem and heaven, those souls are now resurrected people.
JR: Right.
David: There's still something about the souls crying out for justice,
JR: Yeah. Bearing witnessed,
David: does. yeah.
JR: Yeah, sure. Okay. No, that, that's actually, I think that's a pretty good answer. I don't know if that's gonna satisfy him, but you know, that's the best we can do.
David: We'll see. No, it's always great to get listener questions, so keep 'em coming.
JR: Go read the juniper tree. Go back and check that out. And, to the listeners, it's an easy read and it kind of gives you that [00:09:00] image that I think is helpful about the purpose of the altar in the new temple. like you said, this isn't about a fairytale episode as much as I'd like it to be.
We're going with Ephesus, so this is our final episode, right?
David: Yeah. It went quick.
JR: Yeah. It kind of did. And yeah. How in the world do you cover Ephesians? in four episodes. that's a pretty good stretch, although we're kind of taking particular themes of different chapters.
David: Well, so we basically skipped from, remember chapters four and five, just because this isn't a verse by verse study. We're hitting on the big themes, the images that Paul draws on. But it's four is a pretty quick way to cover six chapters in Ephesians, 'cause there's so much there.
But today we're gonna talk about Ephesians chapter six and we're gonna talk about the Armor of God. And I think the image that I had when we visited Ephesus was the great theater, Right.
Because the great theater, of all was really impressive, but it's also where fights took place. It's not only a place for plays,
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: gladiator contests took place. [00:10:00] so if you read the book of Acts where Paul was in Ephesus, you read the letter of Ephesians. I think there's definite imagery there of the theater, and there was the riot in Ephesus.
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: this tie-in to me between Ephesians chapter six and the great theater.
JR: Is it implied that Paul might have spoken this in the great theater, it was there in Paul's time, right?
David: It was the riot takes place and they drag. Gosh, I'd have to look it up. They dragged one of his colleagues into the
JR: Hmm. Yes, that's right.
David: actually is not dragged into the theater, but his colleagues are dragged into the theater. And of course they're all chanting, great is Artemis of the Ephesians, right?
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: of, of
JR: Right,
David: And there was someone who had to come in and calm the crowd down and basically say, you can't just tear these people apart. There's a process they have to go to, but there's a lot of evidence that that event shook Paul up because Paul writes to Corinth, one of his letters in Corinth.
He [00:11:00] actually, I believe, mentions this idea that when, in fact it says in Ephesus, I fought Wild Beast. Now
JR: Yeah.
David: not literally saying, I fought Wild Beast, but he's drawing on this image of being in the arena, right?
JR: Right,
David: And
JR: And, and
David: to this mob that
JR: Right.
David: tore them apart,
JR: And that, was probably drug in the theater. Right. So I remember standing there down, on the, I guess you'd call it the platform, and we've mentioned this before, but the theater Ephesus is immaculate. it's almost completely restored. You get the full idea, the full vision.
This thing held. What, 20 plus thousand people and it was really well done, as far as restored when we were there. But one of the things that was interesting is that you and I stood, we, we were either standing on the platform, the main, you don't really call it stage because it's not lifted up at all.
It, you know, it goes down, but the platform at the very bottom where you, where an orator would speak and things like that. And so me and you were sitting there talking, saying, isn't it cool to think that Paul [00:12:00] might've had an audience here? And, and might've been kind of, projecting his voice and talking about the, the cosmic powers and booming and echoing in this space, right?
That's built for, well, what Roman or Imperial Power, I guess. And it's a, it's a real site when you stand in that spot. But in any case, you and I walked all the way up to the top Of the theater, of the Imagine Stadium seating. And it was really weird that the people that were down on the platform, that were still on the stage, they were just having room level conversations and you could hear every word.
I mean, it just, it just projected. And we're probably what, 150? 200, 200 feet away probably. And it was just clear as a bell. Anyway, it was really cool. acoustically, what was going on there.
David: yeah.
And you really, I can think of a couple other occasions on our travels where you really can't appreciate the acoustics of something like that, where they didn't have microphones and 20,000 people were there watching this performance. And way down on the theater floor, someone could be [00:13:00] speaking and you could hear them very clearly,
JR: Yeah.
David: clearly. I was thinking too of that, uh, Agamemnon's tomb, again, we don't know if it was Agamemnon, but Agamemnon's tomb. There was a place, it was that big dome
JR: Oh yeah, the beehive.
David: Yeah. And you could, there were places in there where you could talk, across the room you could hear very clearly what people were saying.
Just talking
JR: Yeah.
David: voice.
JR: Yeah. You couldn't whisper on the other side of the room without everybody being able to hear it.
David: Yeah.
JR: So yeah, the acoustics are great and it's just kind of a neat thought to imagine Paul actually there preaching. and so yeah, you're right.
when I, when I think about being drug into the theater, I could see Paul pleading his case and preaching and connecting with the people in this theater, and man, that would've been something to. Have been there listening to it, cause it just kind of echoes and booms, you know, and reverberates through the stadium.
It's great.
David: Yeah. And the other theater that we visited that I think is relevant to this today is the one in Philippi, which wasn't nearly as big, but one of the interesting things that they told us, I don't know if you remember this about Philippi, is that, and it was [00:14:00] probably about a hundred AD, so a little after the time of Paul, but they actually had to retrofit the stage area in order to have fights with wild beast because the railings. When you get to the seating, they weren't tall enough. So, you know,
JR: Yeah.
David: fights were spilling into the audience that that's an exciting night at the theater. Right?
JR: Yeah. Well, it's like, uh, I'm thinking of the splash zone at SeaWorld. It's like the blood, zone where they all had their little, uh, parkas and you know,
David: Yeah.
JR: splattering blood, you know,
David: goes after,
JR: drug a spectator into the,
David: guy eating his hot dog on the second row all of a sudden.
So they actually had to build the wall bigger and lower the floor so it could actually accommodate things like gladiator fights, but also animal fights.
But these are the things that happen at the theater. So when we think about even the great theater at Ephesus, we're not just talking about an orator that happened or a play, but we're also talking about there were gladiator fights, there were wild animal fights. Or where, you know, a slave would fight a wild animal to the [00:15:00] death. So these are the things too that Paul probably bore witness to when he was
JR: right? Yeah.
David: that come to his mind when he's talking about dragged before wild beast in Ephesus. You know, very vivid imagery for Paul.
JR: Well, and you'd said that the first five chapters of Ephesians is really kind of practical living. it's practical theology. but then chapter six is kind of cool 'cause he kind of pivots into this spiritual, area and we kind of go a little bit different direction.
and so what are our verses that we're covering today?
David: Yeah. So today we're going to listen to Ephesians 6: 10 through 20. And I guess this is the Armor of God should be very familiar to people if you grew up in church, but if you didn't, this might be not so familiar to you, but it's the armor of God. And what should we just take a listen to it and then we can start talking about it?
JR: Yeah, yeah. Let's take a listen and then we'll pick it up on the other side.
[00:16:00] [00:17:00]
JR: Okay. So there it is. Those are the verses. And like we said earlier, it's interesting that Paul kind of goes from this, practical sort of household order of how the church should function into sort of this, I don't know, maybe, it feels a little cartoonish.
I don't know, maybe a childlike, put on that armor of God. I don't know how you feel about those verses, and maybe it's from, from growing up in Sunday school and these verses kind of lend themselves to
6, 7, 8-year-old boys, of, Getting our attention by Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The plastic sword and,
David: armor. Yeah. No, this is one of these passages that for me, for a while now, I've tried to figure out the deeper symbolic meaning of what Paul might have been getting at, because I, I think you're right. [00:18:00] Growing up in Sunday school, this to me feels a little bit, I don't know, you always saw the flannel graphs, and it kind of drives me crazy.
It's a little personal thing, but a lot of times when people are talking about this, they'll show images of like crusaders in armor.
JR: right.
David: okay, that's the wrong time
JR: Yeah.
David: You know, it comes a, that's a thousand years later. This is not what Paul had in mind, or the medieval knights, you know, the armor of God being this medieval knight. There's so many images that come to mind that for me, I guess I've really tried to dig into what would this first century audience have understood. ' cause I don't think we understand it really well. It's very easy to take a very, maybe shallow, for lack of a better word, a shallow understanding and say, yeah, do spiritual warfare.
Right. Put on your armor and go out there and, fight the evil spirits. But I don't know what, that's what we're gonna unpack today. I guess, let's say that that's the conversation we're gonna have. What do you think Paul's getting at with this whole image?
JR: Well, you're right. it lends itself to many a Sunday school [00:19:00] story that, I've sat through and I've heard, I mean, I've heard everything from. What is it that the majority of these items are defensive and the sword is the only offensive weapon? I don't know. I've, heard people try to break it down and I will say cause you and I love symbology, we love trying to figure out deeper meaning.
And, we find kind of these deep meanings in other verses. And you're right, I've read this and I'm like, man, what do you know, what is, what's the significance of the breastplate versus righteousness and how do those two tie together? And,
David: yeah.
JR: and I don't know, may it, maybe it just doesn't pop.
Maybe somebody else could give a better explanation. To somebody who wants to find meaning But to you and I, who kind of, you know, I'm wanting to find a connection between all these things and it's hard for me to really grab onto what the connection between a breastplate and righteousness is or, the sandals of, peace. You know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to make connections to these, but I'm not sure that there is necessarily a connection from the [00:20:00] item to the item that they represent or the characteristic that they represent. the shield of faith, even the sword, it's the sword of the spirit. I don't know, most of these are defensive, items. One offensive item. to start off? Do you see a connection between the individual items and the characteristic that they represent? Because I never really could find anything.
David: Now I can't say that I have either. And that's, I guess part of my frustration is trying, like you said, trying to find those connections, trying to find the symbolism of what a breastplate represents and how that corresponds to righteousness. But I wonder if this is one of those areas where Paul's just, what?
He's taking that everyone knows what Armor consists of.
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's saying for you, this is what it is. You know, it'd be like if you were talking about a football player, you'd say, alright, you wanna put your helmet, your shoulder pads on, right? Your jersey, you gotta have your knee pads. But there wouldn't, maybe, maybe it's that idea of trying to draw too much. From the individual pieces of equipment and not enough from the whole [00:21:00]maybe. I think
JR: Yeah.
David: I think I fall into the trap. I think a lot of people fall into the trap. 'cause I hear a lot of different explanations. The offensive, the defensive and it's never really that satisfying. So I don't know, I think we can back up for a minute and go back to what Paul is talking about in the first place when he starts to introduce us.
And then we can try to maybe stick with that holistic view of when Paul's describing the armor, what would a Jew here, what would a Greek here? And maybe not try to go down that road so much of trying to find the meaning and symbolism in, every little piece.
JR: No, I'm glad you said that because I do think that's a mistake we make. We see this nice list and we're saying, oh, does that correspond with anything? And I think the point is really more in chapter 12. you know, I think I mentioned earlier that The first five chapters of Ephesians is sort of what you would think of as a common sermon about the order of the church. And he kind of does this shift in chapter six, in verse 12 especially, is that he's shifting to supernatural [00:22:00] warfare. Right. And it it catches the modern reader maybe off guard a little bit because we don't really talk about the supernatural realm very much.
But as you and I have said many times on this podcast, the ancient listeners were much more comfortable with stepping into both worlds kind of on a daily basis, really. Right. What do you think about that?
David: Yeah, I think that's true. spiritual warfare has a range of meanings for us in the modern world. And in the modern church, depending on how you're even raised. Right?
JR: Right.
David: there was a common, there was more of a common idea of what it was in the ancient world. let's just go back and read verse 12 real quick.
'cause that's really what sets up the armor of God. Ephesians 6:12, just to recap, Paul says, "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, against the rulers and authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil the heavenly realms." Okay. There's a lot there.
JR: Right.
David: Right? And I've even heard commentaries, they don't know what to do with this, but this is clearly saying our, our struggle is not against flesh and blood. [00:23:00] It is a spiritual struggle. So in other words, Paul has laid out in the, in the previous chapters, here's how to live virtuously. You know, the things that Paul always says to the church, avoid sexual immorality, encourage each other.
Here's how Christian households are supposed to conduct themselves. But then he comes back and he thought enough of this to say, here's how I'm gonna end my letter. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood. And then he lists all these to us, I think sound, that's the first point I would make.
It sounds like a bunch of just random words, right? Rulers and authorities.
JR: Right,
David: sounds like flesh and blood, but it's not.
JR: right,
David: Right. These are different types of powers in the spiritual realm.
JR: Yeah. He's not talking about physical kings and you know, governments, things like that. He's talking about something supernatural.
David: Yeah. And against the powers of this dark world, against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
JR: Right.
David: So that idea of the heavenly realm then. So Paul is putting the battle in the [00:24:00] spiritual realm in the heavenly realm and he's saying, look, that's where the real war is going to take place. And that's why you'll need to equip yourself accordingly. So even that one verse I think is a lot to unpack because it's easy for us to misunderstand. It's interesting because you and I both read Michael Heiser's book The Unseen Realm, right?
JR: Yes. I just gave that to a friend
I intend to read it again a second time.
David: Yeah. Okay. So recently I thought, well, that's worth reading again. So I'm about halfway through it again, and I'm just reminded of how much the biblical worldview is framed by this idea of the spirits given to
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: nations rebel against God. And the, basically the story of the Bible then is God the world, his creation from these various, and I'm gonna use Paul's words, these various principalities and powers and rulers that ruled a certain domain.
JR: Right.
David: And that's the part I think that's not easy for us moderns to keep in our heads. And I do [00:25:00] think this is Paul's worldview. So when Paul's talking about rulers and authorities, it sounds like he's talking about, well, is he talking about, the governor of that region and then he's talking about Caesar?
No, he's talking about the gods that rule those regions.
JR: Right, right,
David: in Ephesus. Look, he's talking about Artemis,
JR: right. Well, we talked about this before, that you know, it's easy For a modern person to look at Baal and Ashtoreth and Molek and all these gods little g gods that are, described in the Bible and sort of, maybe even laugh a little bit, like, I can't believe these people believed in, these gods and certainly sacrifice children to them.
But to your point, there are actually forces behind that. Now, was Baal one of the literal 70 rulers? I don't know about that. I mean, that's a, that's another long conversation, for another podcast. But the point is, is that the idea that this power of Baal and the worshipers of Baal and the priests of Baal didn't have any [00:26:00] power, that there was nothing behind it, is completely false.
There is a legitimate power. you go to the Book of Exodus where Moses kind of faced off with the, I, I think they called 'em magicians, the priests of the Egyptian gods. And a lot of the things that Moses was doing, the miracles, quote unquote, that he was doing, their, their priests and their magicians could do the same thing.
They could throw down their staffs and they turned into serpents. Uh, they could pick them back up again. and so there were things going on that were what we would call miraculous supernatural, that weren't necessarily from Yahweh, God, they were from one of these other gods, one of these other powers.
And so I just think we downplay that idea a lot and, you know, we love that story about Elijah facing off the prophets of Baal and sort of mocking them and saying, Hey, is maybe your God's asleep? Maybe he's, maybe he's away on vacation. Right? And so I think it's easy to take that story and think, yeah, there was nothing to that. There was, there was nothing to Baal.
But I don't [00:27:00] think you have hundreds of prophets that dedicated their lives, if they didn't think something was going to actually happen. You know, I, I feel like that story is a little bit misleading because you could, you could easily look at it and say, yeah, God has all the power and the prophets of Baal had none.
Well, in that interaction, in that contest, that's exactly what happened. But that doesn't mean that, there was never any power behind Baal, that there was never anything behi that the prophets, uh, accomplished and that there were never miracles that Baal actually manifested through their prophets.
Things like that, I don't think you have centuries of Baal worship if there's nothing behind it. That's, that's what I'm guess I'm trying to say.
David: Yeah, and we can also apply that to Paul because one of the things that we misunderstand in the modern day is when the Bible talks about false idols, we have a tendency to think, oh, well, they're not real. There's no power there at all.
JR: Right.
David: But that's not actually what the Bible says. The Bible is saying is they're false in their claim to be one of the supreme [00:28:00] gods, the creator God. And God is saying, no, that's my place, Yahweh these other Gods rebelled against me. But they're very real. Right?
JR: Right,
David: of it this way is if they're not real at all, then why is Paul warning the people of Ephesus, the church there, that their struggle is against something that's not even real?
JR: Right, right.
David: So at least in Paul's worldview, they're very real. They have power, but they don't have supreme power
JR: Right.
David: to Yahweh God.
In fact, they're in a state of rebellion against God.
JR: Right.
David: the whole problem and the conflict. So
JR: Yeah.
David: that, that makes sense. But it's very hard for us to wrap our modern minds around that idea. Because we tend to hear the false idols. We think, well, it's not real. Like you said, Elijah, the prophets of Baal. See, they exposed him as a fraud. We think of it as kind of maybe a faith healer TV that, you know, is exposed to be
JR: Con man.
David: something like that.
JR: Right.
David: that's not at all the worldview of the Old and the New Testament.
JR: [00:29:00] Yeah.
David: Yeah.
JR: think it's easy to take a modern spin on that. And how many sermons have you heard about the modern idols that we have? And you know, you'll hear a preacher say, many of you, your God is football because you're at home watching NFL instead of coming to church. And it's like, man, that's not, these are not the same things.
Uh, obviously our, interests and things like that can get out of hand and, take an unhealthy place in our life, but no, those are not gods, I push back on that idea. You know, football is, is not a god. not the way the ancients understood it.
David: Well, your iPhone is another one. You know, your iPhone
JR: Right,
David: and Yeah. That's not what Paul's talking about. I think Paul might've looked quizzically at us if he started talking about the principalities and powers being football and your iPhone and a television, something
JR: right. Yeah.
David: But we have talked about the spirit of things,
JR: Right.
David: right? And so some of these principalities and powers, a better way to say that can work through those to keep our grip, attention away [00:30:00] from God,
JR: Yeah.
David: right? Because look, in this modern world, this is, this is a whole subject in of itself, but in the modern world where we largely reject the idea of anything supernatural that can't be explained by science, why would the old gods, so to speak, come to us in these forms that we don't even believe in and we just write off? So there's this idea that, well, they're coming to us in different forms, but today you hear more and more, I've heard the phrase, the return of the old gods.
JR: Right.
David: a freaky thing to think about
JR: Yeah.
David: people are starting to pay attention to some of these things again,
JR: Yeah.
David: in a misdirected manner.
JR: Yeah, we've said this before, there really is a spirit behind certain things, and you can see it behind certain movements. You can see it behind. our political divide in the country now is just not what it's ever been in the past. And I don't know, there, there is a spirit behind some of these things.
So maybe, I don't know. I guess we just got done saying that your iPhone is not a God or football is not a God. And maybe not in the, in the ancient [00:31:00] way, but there really is still a spirit behind something. Maybe there is a actual what you and I would call a God little g maybe there is a spirit, not just a metaphor of a spirit behind something. Maybe there is actually a spirit behind some of these things that are going on in the world today.
Put it this way, I really do believe in literal little g gods in the world.
I really do believe that they influence man. They influence kingdoms. They influence, groups of people. They influence movements. And there are malevolent forces behind some of the movements that we've seen throughout history and. I think the idea of a spirit behind that is a little bit more literal than a metaphor.
David: Yeah, that's a better way to talk about it than just well, Paul was speaking metaphorically. 'cause I think the point we're trying to make is, I think the first step in understanding why Paul talks about an armor of God is you have to understand that he is not speaking metaphorically when he says, our struggle is not against flesh and blood. And then he goes on to [00:32:00] list these authorities and rulers. powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of the heavenly realms. None of that's metaphorical.
JR: right?
David: football or television or iPhones.
He is saying there is a spirit behind these things that you can get sucked into. And Paul's point is, that's where your real battle is being fought, right?
JR: Right. And so when verse 13 starts off as, therefore, that's the pivot point.
Verse 10 through 12. That's the real problem. It's a literal problem, but 13 is therefore, now we're gonna move into the metaphor of the armor of God.
David: Yeah. So let's review the armor real quick and then we can talk about it. So in starting verse 14, stand firm then with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, the breast plate of righteousness in place your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one, and then take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. And then he a, also adds and pray in the spirit in [00:33:00] all occasions. And there have some who have said, well, that's an additional of the armor if you want to go there. But, so yeah, that's, Paul then describes putting on this armor, right? And so I guess the question we started with is, is there meaning in all these little things or. Maybe our approach should be to stand back and say, how would a first century person have heard this idea of put on an armor to fight this battle?
JR: Well, it, you know, again, he, uses literal counterparts, but he's saying in the spiritual battle, you need things like truth and righteousness and peace and faith and salvation. Right? That's what, those are the main things he's pointing at. And so how does that pivot into, a spiritual battle and how does that prepare us for that?
David: Yeah. Well, one thing I probably best place to start, and I'm, I have an outline in front of me, but I'm gonna skip around a little bit because I think this conversation lends itself to it. But, so one of the things, the first thing you gotta understand is that Paul is drawing off some Old Testament theology, okay? And this is not an either or thing, because we're gonna talk about how the Greeks would've heard this as well, [00:34:00] but. Paul is drawing some of these references, the breastplate of righteousness, the helmet. These are drawing off some Old Testament images from the prophets, and it comes from this idea. So this is probably the first place to start. This comes from the idea God in several places in the Old Testament is described as a divine warrior. Now that in itself is interesting because I don't think we in the church today maybe are not all that comfortable of this image of God as a divine warrior. Right?
JR: Yeah.
David: a
JR: Yeah.
David: references to this in the Old Testament. I dunno if you started watching, did you watch the first Terminal List, Chris Pratt, that series?
JR: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did. I couldn't tell you much about it, but yes. So, and it, it re-upped for a second season, is that right?
David: Well, so I, they just released what is they're calling a prequel. So
JR: Okay.
David: Chris Pratt, it's got Taylor Kitch, which I really like Taylor Kitch. I don't know if you know who he is, but
JR: Yeah. Yeah. No, he's great.
David: Yeah, he's great. [00:35:00] So it's got, you know, a cast that I really enjoy. But it, the whole idea again is these SEAL team members go undercover and they stop bad guys, right?
JR: Right.
David: I was thinking about that with this idea of God as divine warrior because look, as a guy, it's like, man, I'm a sucker for, show me a good seal team undercover operation, you know, and I'm all in.
JR: Yeah, that's right.
David: I guess I'm trying to say that's the way the Old Testament sometimes talked about God as basically an elite warrior who was taking the enemy out if
JR: Yeah.
David: that.
JR: Well, I mean, listen, that's, that's the way he's portrayed in the Old Testament, and even today there's a little bit of a misunderstanding of, you know, are you talking about the God of the Old Testament or the God of the New Testament? Right. Because the God of the Old Testament, he'd go in there and white people out, and the God of the New Testament, shaped through the image of Jesus is loving and accepting and always there for you,
always there with open arms. And so there's a little bit of a misunderstanding of the distinction between Yeah. Which God are we talking here? And obviously we're talking about the same [00:36:00] one.
David: The divine warrior or the God who just hugs everyone. Right. Hugs everything
JR: Right, right. But I mean, it's, it's been shaped by the New Testament for us, for the modern listeners. this is why when Jesus came in Jerusalem on a donkey and he's this man of peace and I mean The Jewish leadership were like, look, this is not our guy. Trust me, the God of the Old Testament isn't rolling into town on a donkey isn't coming in in this peaceful way.
He's gonna come in and clean house. He's gonna come in and, and actually dominate. And so they had trouble wrapping their heads. You know, this isn't the only reason they had a problem getting on board with Jesus. But it's definitely one of the reasons 'cause he didn't fit the mold that they thought the Old Testament God would manifest, and, come to Earth as a man doing.
They didn't think that he fulfilled that role very well. Right. 'cause he didn't, didn't reflect the God of the Old Testament.
David: Yeah, that, that's right. And of course I would reject this whole idea of there's a different God of the Old Testament and new. It's more in our understanding.
JR: Right.
David: just to bring out some examples of this, so [00:37:00] Exodus 15:3 says, "The Lord is a warrior. Yahweh is his name." Just says it right there.
JR: Right.
David: You go to Isaiah, "The Lord looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He was appalled that there was no one to intervene, so his own arm achieved salvation for him and his own righteousness sustained him." And here's where Paul starts to draw on it. "He put on righteousness as his breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head."
So okay, right there. That's interesting because the helmet of salvation. We go, okay, that's my salvation. Why does God need one then?
JR: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. I didn't realize that there was such a direct one-to-one parallel, at least with those two items.
David: those two items, it's not a one-to-one in all the things that Paul listed, but I think for these two, Paul's definitely drawing off Isaiah here.
JR: Sure. Yeah.
David: This one, I'll read one more. Psalm 78. It always cracks me up a little bit because it says, "Then the Lord awoke us from asleep as a warrior wakes from the stupor of wine."
So he is describing God, right?
JR: Yeah. And maybe not the most flattering way.
David: [00:38:00] "He beat his enemies back and he beat them to everlasting shame." And when I think about that, I think about the movie Troy with Brad Pitt, because that's exactly what happens, right?
JR: Oh, yeah.
David: fight and they have to wake him from this stupor of wine
JR: Right.
David: He doesn't want to get up. But now that he's up, yeah, he's going to, what does the Psalm say?
He's going to beat his enemies back and he's gonna put them to everlasting shame. That's exactly what Brad Pitt does.
JR: His heart's not in it, and he's always like, are you serious? I've gotta do this today. And fine. And he gets, like, he goes out there and you know, the quick jump and the guy's dead, Right.
David: The spin move stabs him. Battle over, right? Now
JR: Oh, dude, I'm gonna have to watch that. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go watch that tonight now. Yeah. At least that scene.
David: No, but it's, it's interesting because this is the way, and you know, Isaiah 42, we could go on and on. There's a lot more, but the, this is the way, at least one way that the Old Testament talks about God, Yahweh as a divine warrior, as someone who is roused to battle. [00:39:00] And he puts on a breastplate of righteousness and a helmet of salvation.
So that's at least part of what Paul is drawing on.
JR: Yeah. Okay, so let's, let's land there for just a second. Why, I realize that the helmet of salvation is not salvation in the modern context of are you saved or have you given your life to Christ? What do you think that represents then, in Isaiah? Or do you have any idea and, and I just threw you a massive curve ball.
David: No, actually we were talking about this. I just noticed that. I'm like, yeah, why does God need a helmet of salvation? But salvation, I think in this context is talking about deliverance. God is putting on the helmet and he's going to deliver
JR: Yeah.
David: from his enemies. Right? And so I do think it's interesting because it does inform what Paul might be referring to, He's
JR: Okay.
David: maybe this idea, broader term of deliverance.
JR: No, that, that really is interesting. I think our modern understanding of God is that, he speaks and enemies fall and mountains melt like wax, right? and there's something [00:40:00] about what's the purpose of the imagery of him preparing for battle when, his very word has so much power behind it. It obviously is, the source of creation and, and non-existence, right?
In the same breath. it is kind of strange to think about it in the context of somebody that has to get ready for, you know, don't go to war without your helmet. Don't go to war without your breast plate, you know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
JR: And it seems, I don't know, maybe seems unnecessary. This is an interesting verse. I was not really aware of it.
David: Yeah. Okay. So this is this interesting, 'cause curiosity got better at me. So I went to Isaiah 59. So the Hebrew word is actually, Yeshua, which is the idea of Joshua which would be the same idea of Jesus, right?
JR: Right.
David: So it means deliverance, it means welfare, prosperity, victory. it can have all those range of meanings.
And the other thing I just noticed is that the verse before says that with his own arm, he achieves salvation for him. God is clearly not [00:41:00] saving himself.
JR: Yeah.
David: bringing salvation to himself in the way that we think about it. What he's doing is he's achieving victory for himself. Okay? So
JR: Yeah.
David: puts on the helmet, that's like. Uh, I guess you could, to use a modern idea of if one team is gonna go dominate the other, it's like, alright, I'm putting on the helmet of domination, the sign that I'm about to dominate this game is I'm gonna put the helmet on. I think in that same sense, what, at least the Old Testament reference to the helmet of salvation.
JR: Well that, you're right. That's a little bit different. It's not necessarily the tools necessary for God to go to battle as much as it is, the symbol of, what is it? When the helmet's on, you can hold all your narratives of a loving and, warm and wonderful God, right?
Let's push that to the side for just a minute. 'cause Dad got his helmet on. You know, it's almost like an indication for everybody else that this is where this is about to go.
David: Yeah.
JR: gets his belt, walks in the room with his belt.
David: No, so it is interesting though, because you had brought up idea of why does God need all these weapons?
JR: [00:42:00] Right.
David: Doesn't just the word proceed out of God?
He can win. But we also know from the Old Testament, and look even from modern times is that's not the way God operates.
Because God could speak a word and all of evil would be wiped out instantaneously.
But that's not the way that God has designed the world until he brings all things under the reign of Christ. Ephesians chapter one, right? So until then, what you might say is, God is a warrior fighting on our behalf as we learn to fight this battle, as we go through this struggle ourselves.
JR: Yeah. So you're saying that no, you're saying that some of this imagery is more exemplary, is more designed to be an example for us.
David: Yeah. they're using God in this warrior image as an example of why they should be brave and stand firm.
If God is fighting on your side, what are you really afraid of? And so
JR: Right.
David: have back circle back to Elijah and the prophets of Baal.
Right?
JR: Yeah, no, that's helpful. That's, that's a helpful way to think about it.
David: Elijah has this divine warrior standing [00:43:00] behind him, what, what is he afraid of? A bunch of prophets of Baal?
JR: Yeah, exactly. And if you were to describe God as courageous, that really doesn't even make sense because what does God have to be courageous about? if all he has to do is speak the word, but he defines courageousness so that we will be courageous?
David: Yeah, I think that's
JR: Yeah. No, that, that's actually helpful.
David: the second thing I would say, and then we can move on, is you gotta remember that God is fighting this battle in the spiritual realm, just like Paul has said, in truth, don't know what is going on in the spiritual realm. We don't know how God is fighting that battle, right?
We don't know how the angels are fighting that battle. They probably don't have physical swords and breastplates and helmets, but it does help understand this is the battle that's being fought. And I think that's part of what Paul's point is in this section also.
JR: Okay. Yeah. I think a mistake we make in saying that God is all powerful, it doesn't take into account that God has intentionally set up this plan. He's outside the game, so to speak, but he's [00:44:00] also set up the rules. And so I go back to that verse, where Jesus comes and the demons recognize them and they're like saying, "Hey, have you come before it's time." It's almost like they're saying, I know you have the power to get rid of me.
I know you have the power to cast me out and to completely destroy me, but I thought the rules of engagement were this. I didn't think you were gonna mess with us until the second coming. Does that make any sense? There's this reality that God is all powerful.
But there's also the reality, and I think we overlook this all the time, this is, why doesn't God get rid of evil? Why doesn't God, how does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I think there's another reality that we forget to recognize that God set this, I don't wanna call it a game.
God set this scenario up a certain way with particular rules of engagement, which is why in Job Satan can go to heaven and visit God and have a council with God, right? Why didn't God just take care of Satan right then and there? Well, that's not the way he set this up. It's intentionally not set up this way.
And so God set up a [00:45:00] particular scenario that over the entire narrative of the human existence, a certain result is completely apparent to everybody about God's power and his glory.
But in the meantime, he's holding a lot of that back because he wants to, because he's engaging in this spiritual battle, and it's almost like he's, Pulling back a little bit and so that we can be a part of that battle.
David: Yeah. I, I think that's it. it's the whole question of why doesn't God just wipe out evil right now? Well, A, because that's not the course that he set the world on, but B, there's something that he wants from us, which I think probably gets to the heart of what Paul's saying here,
JR: Yeah. it,
David: that you are in, right?
JR: right,
David: the battle that you're in.
JR: right.
David: assured, because you're being backed by a divine warrior. We know how the battle ends. put on the armor of God, fight bravely stand firm to use Paul's words. Stand
JR: Yeah.
David: says that four times, I think in that section.
JR: Yeah. If you've ever coached, like a little league team or peewee [00:46:00] football or seven year olds playing basketball, it would be like telling me, why don't you go in and you could dunk on all these kids? You would dominate. Our team would easily win. It's like, well, that's not the point. You know, I'm the coach.
I'm trying to teach you guys how to play this game. Right. And so it is something analogous to that. Right. I, I think you're right. At least that's a helpful way to look at it.
David: Yeah, I think that's right. Okay. So that would be the Jewish image, let's say that. And that is clearly some of what Paul is drawing on, but. Paul is also well aware that this is a gentile audience that he's writing to. We've
JR: Right.
David: in the previous episodes as well. Paul's a smart guy.
He knows what his gentile audience will hear when he uses these terms. Alright, so let's talk for a minute about how they would hear this. I heard this a long time ago, but a light bulb went off for me. If you are a Greek you're steeped in all the Greek gods and all the Greek mythology, and Paul brings up the armor of God, what you hear is the armor of the gods. And [00:47:00] that was a very distinct thing in Greek mythology.
JR: Okay. Sure.
David: Right?
And so his audience is going to make that connection, and I think Paul knew that. All right, so what is the armor of the gods? Without getting too much into the weeds, we know that, Hephaestus is one of the 12 Olympic gods.
Getting into his background, he was crippled, but he ends up being kind of put on this island, but he's the god of metalworking.
JR: Yeah. He's the master. He can build anything. He builds all these elaborate metal items.
David: Right. And so throughout mythology, one of the things that he does is he gives armor to people. who need protection. So one example is Achilles wears divine armor in the Trojan War, and it was
JR: right.
David: to him, at least originally, it was built by Hephaestus, right? Perseus was given a shield to fight Medusa.
JR: Right.
David: this armor comes, it's, it's part of the divine armor.
It's armor of the gods,
And so essentially the armor of the gods meant that the wearer of this armor, [00:48:00] it was gifted from one of the gods, and it made them basically invincible. Now, not totally invincible because Achilles, gets
JR: heel.
David: heel. The heel, yeah. The
JR: Yeah. That daggum heel, right?
David: but otherwise, he's basically invincible. So I think that's a cool aspect of bringing this into the armor of God.
JR: Yeah, in myth, they were equipped to go on a quest, usually. And so it plays into that idea of, not simply that, Hey, how cool is it that you're invincible now? It's like, no, you're now equipped to go on this heroic journey. You know? And, and, and this happens in fairytales too. You know, think of like invisibility cloaks or protective rings that are given to people on a quest, but it's always tied to a quest.
And so it's a common narrative device to give what the flawed character, a symbolic item that safeguards them on their heroic journey. And the point is the journey. The point is the heroic journey. And so this is what we're gonna give them. Yeah. And so you're exactly right. I think the Greeks would understand it that way, [00:49:00] that if you're given a divine sword or a divine helmet, it's not just, oh, how cool is this, that I can take on my enemies.
Now it's like, oh, now I have what I need to go on a spiritual quest.
David: That's right. That, yeah, that's a good point. Just so you were saying that, I'm thinking is given by Galadriel. The what? The Elfin bread and the light.
JR: Right,
David: that lights up when Orcs are around, maybe Galadriel didn't give him that, but she gives him gifts to go on this quest to complete it.
JR: Right. The, the point is that those, those items were worthless in the Shire, right? They, they're only in in,
David: to the Shire and
JR: right?
David: look at this cool stuff I got. Right. Yeah.
JR: Yeah. I wish there were orcs around so I could light it up and show you how it works, right?
David: that. No, that's a great point. So I think when Paul talks about, put on the armor of God, if you are a Greek audience, you, what you hear is the armor of the gods. That's immediate connotation you make. And that conveys a lot of information. I think you're exactly right. It means you're about to go on a quest.
It means [00:50:00] that if you wear this, you are protected from all the things that you would normally be fearful of.
JR: And a quest in mythology means entering into the underworld.
David: Yeah. Yeah.
JR: You know what I mean? It's,
David: Well, no. So one of the quests would be entering the underworld, and that's the other place where you see divine armor in mythology is a descent to the underworld.
JR: Yeah. And it, and, when we say underworld, like a descent to the underworld is considered in mythology. It's kind of the ultimate test, right? It's much more than physical tests of bravery or strength or things like that. And we don't use this language much today, obviously, If you read the, the poem, the Dark Night of the Soul, you'll understand that the underworld in mythological terms is akin to like a deep spiritual crisis, right? Some of the Psalms capture this idea of feeling abandoned by God. God, where are you? Right? It's questioning God.
And so the underworld doesn't have to be this woowoo place of fantasy fiction, right? It's a metaphoric space that if you live long enough, we all go through, right? [00:51:00] And so that's what the journey to the underworld is. It's a spiritual crisis. a psychologist would call it an ego death. It is a complete transformative worldview that you have to go through.
And to your point, you know, the reason that the myths described these quests that go into the underworld, it's almost like a demonstration to us. And this is why Paul uses it. It's a demonstration to us that, hey, you're gonna go through these crises in your life and you need to be prepared for it. And, I think the Greek listeners of the time would be able to associate what he's saying, with the stories of going to the underworld and therefore the stories of what I'm going to need to get through life if I'm gonna live long enough to see, you know, to have a crisis of faith or have a complete collapse of my worldview.
David: Well, and in some ways you can't help but wonder if Paul is warning them about what's coming. In other words, you live in a Greek world and are now He calls them saints and Ephesus.
JR: Mm-hmm.
David: are now representing Christ. One of the things [00:52:00] that maybe Paul is subtly saying is prepare to go through hell,
JR: Yeah.
David: right?
And understand who the battle is against. And look, we know, oh gosh, we know some, some of the places that Paul went, we know that he was, driven out of town. He was imprisoned. We talk about that in Philippi. He's thrown in prison. He's driven out of town. We know that he was constantly warning the churches that he left behind of persecution, life was not gonna be easy for them.
Yeah, I wonder if this is a subtle way of Paul saying, Hey, this is your, armor for the descent to the underworld. And it's like, oh, the underworld, you know, when's that gonna happen? And Paul's like, well, give it
JR: wait.
David: a little bit.
JR: Yeah. Yeah. It.
David: gonna happen, right?
You're gonna descend into your own personal hell when, look, the church comes up against the culture of the time that isn't happy about all this.
JR: No, that's right. And I think what he's saying is not only are you going to deal with pushback from the culture around you, maybe, you get drug into court, maybe you get physically beaten, things like that. But he's, he's [00:53:00] saying that recognize that these are all spiritual forces behind that.
Yes, there's gonna be, you're, you're putting your life on the line. Yes. you're gonna get pushback from the physical culture, the real world to use that language, but recognize that there's actually a spirit behind that. And if you're gonna be prepared for this, if you're gonna be prepared for this descent in the underworld, you gotta have these characteristics to be able to make it through that.
David: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right And I think that helps me now that we've talked through this, I think that helps me more than trying to identify what each individual piece of armor symbolizes more talking about the whole.
I guess to recap, first of all, and this is where we start to apply it to world today.
First of all, understand who the battle is against.
JR: Yeah.
David: So it's not against your cranky neighbor, and it's not against the guy who voted in the way that you didn't want 'em to, right?
JR: Right, right.
David: against that, like Paul's like, understand the battle that you're fighting and it's not. I would also go a step further and say it's not even spiritual [00:54:00] warfare in the way that the church often talks about it. I don't know.
JR: Yeah, no, we trivialize that a little bit too, that if you're sort of made fun of at work, for whatever reason, well, you know, it's probably because they know you're a believer and, you know, I don't, I don't know. You can go a little bit too far with that line of thinking.
I don't know. I'm not a fan of victim mentality anyway, and I'm not saying that there's haven't been times in history where being a Christian really did put a big red X on your head and, and a target on your back and you really are in some mortal danger. But I think we kind of use some of those metaphors for the little problems that we run into in life.
I like the Instagram first world problems. You know,
David: Yeah,
JR: latte wasn't, yeah, my latte wasn't, wasn't hot or there wasn't enough caramel drizzle on top. You know, it's like
David: personal descent to the underworld
JR: Right?
David: morning. Right? 'cause I didn't get
JR: Yeah.
David: on my caramel latte.
JR: Yeah. They misspelled my name when they wrote it on the side of my latte cup.
Yeah, we can, we can kind of trivialize some of these things of [00:55:00] real things that people go through. So I'm not, saying that being a Christian doesn't have real ramifications, certainly in other cultures, but in the culture we're in right now, I don't know. I, I just, I don't like the idea of playing that victim card of saying, you know, I probably didn't get that promotion at work because my boss, he's an atheist, or, I, I just don't like that type of language.
And it's not to say that in our lifetime we're not gonna really face some true persecution. we said earlier, it feels like we're at the end of something. And so when you're at the end of something, things change really quick. So that could be the reality that we end with in our lifetime.
But, I'm, I'm just not a big. playing the persecution card very much.
David: Well, as, so as you were talking too, I was thinking about, and it's not just, them out there. Right? It's the battle within me and,
JR: yeah,
David: and it's like, why, why can't I kick this habit? It's like, why do I feel the need to lie?
JR: yeah.
David: off the handle? And I think one of the things that Paul's saying, even, look [00:56:00] it, you're fighting a character flaw. Yeah. But understand you're fighting something bigger than you too.
JR: Yes.
David: And in that case, okay, so here's a thought.
So in that case, let's take the example of lying. It's like, you know, why do I feel the need to lie? Why do I stretch the truth? One of the things that Paul says is put on the belt of truth. Well, how do you combat that? Well tell the truth. And it sounds so simplistic, but maybe that's starting to be some of those connections. It's like, how do I fight this battle? Well, a good place to start, this would be sounds like Jordan Peterson, right? Is
JR: Right?
David: by telling the truth.
JR: Yeah. All the time to everybody. Yeah.
David: That becomes now a very practical thing. You know?
And maybe you could go through that with this idea in mind and start to apply some of those things. Look, these really are good ways to live, right? So we talked about the Belt of Truth. The breastplate of righteousness. Like the righteousness is just right action. Basically, that's what it means. Again,
JR: Right.
David: theological sounding word, but okay. Tell the truth, and then it's like, act right.
JR: Yeah. Live that out.
David: Okay, the gospel of peace. What does [00:57:00] that mean? Well pursue peace. Like when your neighbor irritates you pursue peace with that person.
JR: If you're a person with a temper, you have, you struggle with that because, you know, you always wanna be combative. You always wanna get your way, and it's like, yeah, let's put that to the side and choose peace when everything in me wants to go a different direction.
David: Yeah. So maybe there is some practicality to this. Once you have a better, broader standing of, you know, Hey, here's just places to start.
JR: Yeah.
David: the truth. shooting yourself in the foot. Quit cooperating with the spirit of lies and exaggeration, right?
JR: You're right, I think I'm, as I'm reading through this list as you're saying it, I'm sitting there thinking, yeah, we've, It's easy to churchify these words and to just sort of say righteousness, peace, faith, salvation. Of course, I want all these things, but it's a little bit different to, you know, to talk about truth.
What does it mean to tell the truth all the time? Well, it's actually easier said than done.
David: Right.
JR: Don't think of myself as a liar, but if I'm actually conscious and saying, okay, let's not, stretch the truth at all today, I mean, [00:58:00] listen, I'm a storyteller. I love getting the guys around me at work and telling a good yarn.
Well, why do I do that? You know, do I do that 'cause I don't think they'll accept the story the way it is. Do I do that because of my need for attention? Do I do that? Because, you know, there's all kinds of things that you can work out within yourself that why do I do that? Why do I have this need to make a story bigger than what it is?
Again, I don't think of myself as a liar, but when you say, yeah, I'm gonna make a dedication to telling the truth all the time, you find that you run into that pole a lot more than you realize. And it doesn't necessarily mean that, I'm completely making up fabrications for y,
David: Yeah. And it's the moments, you know, where your wife said, Hey, did you do this thing I asked you? And you go, oh yeah, I did. And you go, all right, I'm gonna go do it right now.
JR: Right. I'm gonna do that right now.
David: it's, it's simple. It is to say, no, I forgot, but you know what? I'm gonna go do that right now.
JR: Yeah.
David: difference between telling the truth and what? Stretching a story to preserve your, you know, what your own,
JR: Well, to, to, rather than exposing your own [00:59:00] weaknesses, it's easier for me to say, man, I'm sorry. I got, I got a call at work at the last second, man, I just, Well, maybe, I just plain forgot. Maybe 'cause it wasn't important to me as it was to you that I just stuck it on the back burner and didn't follow through with it.
But yes, there's this need to kind of justify why.
David: Yeah.
JR: What you're trying to do is, is put a positive thing forward why I didn't do this thing for you. Yeah. It's just, a weird internal game that we're always playing with ourselves and you know, again, we can read these words of truth and righteousness and faith and sort of have that church spin on it.
Or you can just read it as you know, where's my faith weak? What are the things that I'm skeptical of, even when it comes to the Bible, when it comes to God? What are those things that I'm a little bit cynical about when it comes to maybe the church you're right, it's an internal battle.
And that's why I think, Paul uses that language and it's helpful to talk about the spiritual battle as opposed to, again, when he's coming off these first five chapters of these practical matters of here's, here's how to be sexually [01:00:00] pure, here's how to, you know, be a community, be a congregation.
He's saying all these kind of practical matters, and then he pivots to this spiritual side and a component of that spiritual side is what's going on inside of me. That battle of why can't I get this right, why do I do the same things over and over and over?
David: Exactly, that's where your battle is gonna be. And maybe the practicality in these is tying back to some of the previous things Paul has said. Maybe that's it. But first you gotta get this framework. And so again, like, know the battle. I like the idea of the divine warrior because I think one of the thing Paul is saying is know who's fighting, in the spiritual realm for you. Maybe something like that.
JR: Yeah.
David: Then the idea of divine armor would say, now you can go on this quest. Right? You can go without fear.
So,
JR: Yeah.
David: go out in the world and, be the gospel to other people. But know that you have this armor. I dunno, I think I think the more we've talked about it, I, I think it's a very compelling image and it would've been for a first [01:01:00] century audience as well.
JR: Oh yeah.
Well, when I was a kid, I used to think of how cool it would be to have whatever was on the Saturday morning cartoons. You know, how how cool would it be to have a magic amulet or like a cloak of invisibility or whatever, right? But as I get older, I can see that those things represent characteristics and traits that need to develop in order for me to make it through.
Like I said earlier, those dark nights of the soul and what Paul does, he replaces the pagan talismans that the Greeks would've understood with virtues and divine gifts. Right? And that's the true equipment we need for this unseen journey that we're part of.
David: And I'll add one thing to that because I think it's a great point, and one of the things we do in the church today sometimes is we just come back with these spiritual talismans, right? A magic
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Say this, right. And the devil will flee from you.
JR: Right by Satan.
David: Yeah. The sword of the spirit.
And we almost make that into kind of a talisman, an object instead of a [01:02:00] character development within me.
JR: Yeah. instead of developing a character trait, we develop a meme and we think that that's gonna do it right. It's just magic.
David: Magic,
JR: Yeah. The talisman, the, Protective cloak. Yeah, we want something external. That way we don't have to develop it in ourselves.
David: Yeah,
JR: And maybe what Paul is doing is saying, quit looking for the magic helmet.
Let's deal with salvation or deliverance. Quit looking for the, the Batman tool belt that has the shark repellent and every possible thing on it. And why don't you just start by telling the truth, you know, I wonder if there's a little bit of that imagery going in, snarkiness going, what he's saying.
David: some of the people in the Ephesian congregation, next time Paul shows up, they said, Paul, look what I got at the market. I got the sweet helmet. Right. So you were talking about the helmet and Paul's like, um,
JR: Yeah. Just eye roll. Yeah.
David: I think.
JR: You're doing it again, dude. You know,
David: But I do think it speaks though to A magic phrase or an amulet. Or a talisman, even in a spiritual sense, something to [01:03:00] ward off evil instead of developing a character that refuses to cooperate with evil. And it's
JR: Yeah. I don't know, it's just easy to jump into that way of thinking. It's easy to put John three 16 on the eye black under your eyes when you play football. And, and again, I'm not, I'm, I don't wanna discredit any of that stuff. I'm just saying that it's interesting that we do tend to lean toward, yeah, the magic phrase, the talisman aspect of it.
And maybe he's, maybe he's kind of addressing that a little bit.
David: Yeah, maybe so, because we talked about it in a previous episode, this idea of the Ephesian letters where people burned their scrolls. And so we talked about how it was widespread in Ephesus. This idea of amulets and talismans and, and magic scrolls and sayings.
This is the environment that Paul is fighting. And no doubt had to fight to make sure it didn't rear its ugly head in the church there also,
JR: Yeah,
David: for these magic things that I can do to ward off the evil that Paul's talking about. And Paul's like, no, no, [01:04:00] no. I'm talking about developing virtue here. I'm talking about the understanding of scripture, I'm talking about prayer, I'm talking about
JR: yeah,
David: these things, you know, and look, we had a, maybe I'm stepping in it, but we just had another tragedy this week.
And people started talking about prayer. And of course then the people are like, don't talk to me about prayer. We want action. And it drives me crazy 'cause I'm like, you don't understand prayer.
JR: Right. You don't know, you don't understand the enemy that you're against.
David: Yeah,
JR: You don't understand the spiritual forces that are behind it. Exactly.
David: Yeah, I thought about this week when we were talking about Ephesians chapter six here.
JR: Yeah, and Paul does this in earlier chapters when he talks about the mystery religion. You know, we had the whole podcast about that, he recognizes what the culture's looking for right in front of him. They're looking for this inside information. They're looking for secret knowledge. And he uses that language and says, Hey, I've got a mystery for you. How about the mystery of, Christ, the mystery of God becoming man, the, the mystery of the resurrection? Let's talk about that [01:05:00] mystery.
And so he kind of does the same thing. It's, I'm glad you said that about the, the Greeks understanding the armor of God a little bit differently than the Sunday school 2020, type of phenomenon that we experienced maybe, that he takes what the culture's doing and he says, you guys are doing this for improper motives, you just want to have this secret information, you know, this hallucinogenic experience, and I'm telling you, I've got a, the real mystery is right in front of you and this is what you wanna do. So in one sense, he's kind of sweeping away, the cultural references that are right in front of him while bringing in that same language, but applying it to Christ and the resurrection and the gospel.
And I think it's kind of just a fascinating thing that he's doing.
David: Yeah. And having it all now, I think there's a reason why he spends two chapters talking about developing virtue, right? Remaining sexually pure, how to be a good husband, how to be a good wife, how, how to treat servants, right? He goes through all these things and it's [01:06:00] only then that he brings this idea of the armor in because I think there was probably a danger if he brought this into early, it's like that's what they would've fixated on.
Right? Where can I get this magic armor?
JR: Right.
David: this stuff, you know, I'll magically be protected? And Paul's like, no, no, no. Go back and read the last two chapters I
JR: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Right?
JR: It's, the woman at the, well, you know, where can I have this water that'll, that I'll never thirst again. You know, she's, she's saying, sign me up. I don't wanna walk to this well every day. Right. he kinda leads up with, Yeah. These virtues that need to be developed in us, and then he can kind of engage in the spiritual warfare conversation.
David: And then he is saying, you are not doing this by yourself. You've got the backing of the armor of God. You've got a divine warrior behind you. So go again. It it, I like that idea of the quest. So set out on this quest to develop virtue, to be a good person, to be loving, to be a truth teller, to be a peace promoter, know that you are protected and know that you are backed, right?[01:07:00]
JR: Yeah.
David: Don't shortcut all this. No, I like that. I think that's what he's saying.
JR: Yeah. I mean, listen, there's a meaning crisis in the world today, and people want to feel like they're on their own heroic journey. And that's why we kind of slide into, latest protest, or I'm going to be outspoken on Facebook or social media and, gripe about this or that.
it's directed in the wrong way. And I think what Paul is saying, or what Paul would say to today's generation is, man, I've got a spiritual quest for you. But it's gonna take work. It's gonna take character development, it's gonna take, putting on the armor of God and then engaging in the spiritual quest that God has for you.
Quit doing all these silly attempts at meaning To try to find value in your life because they're all dead ends. And, think you're right. The hero's quest, I think is what he's, calling people to do the adventure that God has for you.
David: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense then why he ends with this. Like, here, put on your armor now go on your quest. Right.
JR: Yeah,
David: Go live the adventure. [01:08:00] That's really what he's saying.
JR: Yeah, But I think you're right. I think he, that's why he couldn't start with that.
It's like you gotta build up to that. so at the end of the letter, he's saying, okay, now that we've covered all this, now take your heroic journey.
David: Yeah, that's right. That's a great way to end it actually.
JR: That was, this was a fun one because we went off the outline a little bit, a little bit off the cuff, which is usually the best conversations. And hopefully you were able to follow along, and sometimes when you have these conversations, the listeners are pulling their hair out and it's like, no, no, no. Stay there for a second. I want to talk, talk about that.
And so if you had those moments, leave us a question 'cause we'll pick it up on the next episode. We'll, uh, have these conversations on Facebook. We'll have these conversations via email. Man, I, I really enjoy engaging with the listeners and hearing what other people have to say because we cover such a wide, variety of things. And we tend to go on little rabbit trails on the podcast and stuff like that. I think that makes it fun. But it also, that leaves from some, probably a lot of loose ends that people, would like to engage in. So that's an invitation to you guys, to let's have that conversation.
David: [01:09:00] Yeah, that's right. Check out the show notes. This wraps up the journey through Ephesus series and next we're gonna do some stranger things.
JR: Oh, dude, I can't wait. what's the first episode of Stranger Things?
David: So we're gonna talk about these conflicting ideas, right?
Which we didn't plan it this way, but we're gonna talk about the end of the world. And then the next one we're gonna talk about immortality, two ideas that are running out there in our strange world today.
JR: Yeah, oddly enough, they do seem incompatible, but in a strange way, it's kind of, well, we talked about it today. It feels like the end of the world right now. A little bit, you know, we feel like we're coming to the end of something, so that'll be a fun conversation. But you're right. There's also, probably because of everything from AI and medical advancements, there's just this push for, man, what if I can live to be 120?
What if I can live to be 150? And I can tell you right now, I'm not interested.
David: Yeah.
JR: I'm interested. I mean, you know, I'd like to be a, a ripe old 90, that'd be great. But, uh, I'm not looking to leave anytime soon. But no, the idea of living to be 150 years old or something like [01:10:00] that. Anyway, that's a conversation for a few weeks.
David: Yep. That'll be a fun conversation. I look forward to that series.
