Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast

Decoding the Bible: Beyond the Literal

• Navigating An Ancient Faith • Season 3 • Episode 20

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In the final episode of Season 3, we explore the story of Jonah and the Whale through five layers of meaning: literal, theological, moral, eschatological, and symbolic. 🐳 We look at Assyria’s historical setting, Jonah’s role in God’s mission, and the challenge of aligning our will with the Divine. ✨ We also trace themes like the number 40, the Leviathan, and the hero’s journey, showing how Jonah’s descent and return foreshadow the pattern fulfilled in Christ. 🙏 Together, we uncover how this ancient story invites us into a deeper way of reading Scripture beyond the merely literal. 📖

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David:

And maybe even in their day there were, there are these people who wrestled with, you know, Jesus throws out this idea of the sign of Jonah, and there are people going. Is he gonna be swallowed by a whale? And others are going, I think you're taking this way too literally.

J.R.:

No, no. You know, like, let's don't get stuck on the literal layer, dude.

David:

Yeah. There's layers of meaning here. All right, let's try this again. We just recorded for 10 minutes and I realized that the audio wasn't even plugged in properly to the, yeah, to the box of the computer. So, let's try this again.

J.R.:

Man, we were on a roll too. Oh, we were probably the best stuff we've ever

David:

Brilliant, brilliant, insights.

J.R.:

Insight. And I forget what we said, so here we go.

David:

That's right, alright, so what we gonna do this evening on this episode?

J.R.:

Yeah. Jonah and the whale, we kind of talked about at the end of the previous episode that these two episodes dovetail together. So we thought, yeah, this is a good time to kind of tackle a particular story and look at it through the five layers of meaning that we talked about previous episode. So we talked about let's do Jonah and the whale. Let's kind of look at it through those lenses.

David:

Yeah. So last episode, we talked about layers of meaning just by means review. We talked about the literal historical layer, the theological layer, or the allegorical, ethical and moral layer, the eschatological and mystical layer.

J.R.:

Yeah. That's a tough word.

David:

It is. Yeah. It doesn't just roll off the tongue.

J.R.:

No Uhuh

David:

symbolic and mythic layer.

J.R.:

Right. Symbolic.

David:

So, you and I talked about, we should give an example, we should tell a story of the Bible and go through these and just talk about the different ways you might be able to interpret that. So we thought, yeah. Let's just kick off this final episode of the series by talking about Jonah the whale.

J.R.:

Yeah. Kind of give an example of what we're talking about in a particular story.

David:

Yeah. So the literal historical layer. What are we thinking about here when we talk about Jonah and the whale?

J.R.:

Well, there was a time and a place, there's a historical context.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

We know that Nineveh was hostile to the Jews, and so to send Jonah a Jew, off to a pagan country, there's obviously a lot of tensions there. That poses a problem right at the beginning. We know that that's why Jonah didn't want to go to this other area, you know?

David:

He was not thrilled about the assignments.

J.R.:

Yeah. My gosh. Sure. I mean, you can understand why, right? You know, it's like, man, you're sending me to my enemies and man, what about the psalm that says, you're gonna destroy my enemies, man. Yeah, that's, I play that card right now. Right? And, it's like, no, this is the assignment. And as much as you don't want to deal with it, you gotta deal with it. So yeah, historically we know that that's accurate, that the Assyrians were hostile to the Israelites at the time. It says in the book that it was during the Rule of Jeroboam the Second of Israel. So we kind of know around 700 or so BC because we have historical accounts of that. Oh, this is a cool thought. So, a few years ago, there was a total eclipse that went across the United States, I think it was called the Nineveh Eclipse, because it went across like seven cities that were named Nineveh in the United States.

David:

Huh, okay, yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah, but in any case, that wasn't the point. During that eclipse, I found this NASA website, and it shows all of the eclipses because it's so predictable. All of the eclipses in all of history. And in the future you can just go to a certain date and say, here's the next eclipse, and here is where it's gonna be seen in the world. And so we knew about this story and I've heard before that possibly one of the mitigating factors in why the Ninevites were so quickly to repent was because they might have seen a total eclipse, and they certainly would've seen that as the God sending them a message, right?

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

The sun is blocked out.<Yeah.> Jonah shows up either at the same time or soon after, and says, repent. And they're throwing their hands up saying, yeah, where do we sign? Yeah, you know, all the signs have shown that we're about to be judged, and then a prophet of God shows up and Yeah, we're ready to do this, right?

David:

Yeah. We're listening.

J.R.:

Yeah. You know what I mean?

David:

You have our attention.

J.R.:

Right. And so I thought that was a cool possibility. And so I go pull up the dates of Jonah when this took place. Like we said, it's about the seventh, eighth century BC and sure enough, on the NASA website. I forget the specific date, but there was right in that timeframe there was a total eclipse right across Nineveh. It's kind of this little path that it shows where exactly where it goes. And man, it pinpointed right over top of Nineveh. So one thing we do know, when you're thinking about this historic literal layer, one thing that's absolutely certain is that there was a complete and total eclipse, right in that timeframe that Jonah went and witnessed or prophesied to the Ninevites.

David:

Okay. Yeah. So it makes sense that the Ninevites would've heard this message from Jonah. It was accompanied by the signs and wonders probab, or most likely.

J.R.:

Sure. Yeah.

David:

And so it would make sense that as the Bible says, the city repented. Yeah. They believed Jonah and repented.

J.R.:

Yeah. And those things may be unrelated, but I think it's pretty cool that it's on the NASA website.<Yeah.> We absolutely know for sure that there was a total eclipse right there over top of Nineveh and it does coincide with it and it kind of plays into the story. So again, the literal historical layer, that could be certainly an aspect of that.

David:

Yeah. Yeah, it could be.

J.R.:

Yeah. But the culture, what's going on in the time, what's going on in the place. Yeah. That's all ties into the historic layer.

David:

Yeah. So Jonah is a Jewish prophet, so we can look at who the Ninevites were. We know that it was the capital of the superpower at the time, Assyria.<Yeah.> And yeah, you bring in these ideas that there may have been eclipse at the time. So all that is building this historical context around the story of Jonah.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

That maybe a good way to say it might be, it separates it from just being this, folk tale or something that's included in the Bible.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Because there's all these connections to the historical events going on at the time.

J.R.:

And we're not getting into the meaning of it yet or what any of this means.<Yeah.> But yeah, it sure does tie in some interesting ways historically.

David:

Yeah, that's right. And I guess it raises the question then, so you are saying this story literally happened, you know? That's the question where we get to the whale part, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. Right.

David:

And I guess we can put a pin in that,'cause we're gonna talk about that later in this episode.

J.R.:

Yeah. We can come back to that.

David:

Yeah. So put a pin in that one. But yeah, so that's the historical layer. Those are the kind of things you would talk about when you talk about the story of Jonah as a setting in a historical context, right? And all the different things you can bring in. Okay. Yeah. So, alright, the theological layer or the allegorical, but really the theology. How does the story of Jonah then fit in with the larger arc of the story of the Bible?

J.R.:

Yeah, well. Theologically, there's lots of things that can be pulled out of it, but I think one of the interesting things is that it is an Old Testament example, kind of an Old Testament echo of what the New Testament and the new covenant is gonna bring. So you have a Jewish or Israelite prophet going to a pagan nation and telling them to repent, telling them about Yahweh, God saying Yahweh, God's judgment is coming. And they do that. And it's funny'cause I've never really thought about it in that context, but it's an Old Testament story that kind of ushers in perhaps is a reflection of what's to come through Christ and the new Covenant and Gentiles being offered redemption. Just like the Jews always had.

David:

Yeah. So it's an Old Testament example of what was to come in in the New Testament, but I would also add that it actually reflects the intent of God all along in setting apart the people of Israel.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

You're going to bless the nations around you. You're going to act as priests. When it says you're a nation of priests, what he means by that is you are going to be a priestly class to the rest of the nations.

J.R.:

Yes. You'll act as the conduit for Yahweh, for the rest of the nations.

David:

Yeah. And so we think of the Old Testament as Israel fighting for their land, which they did, right?

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Driving out the Pagans, establishing the Promised land. But we don't, I don't know, we kind of lose the idea of, it's almost like you can see Israel as being isolationist. And maybe to some extent they were, because I think part of the reason God is always getting onto them is they don't really take this idea seriously, that you are meant to go bless the nations, to reclaim the 70 nations, right?

J.R.:

Right.

David:

To bring in that aspect of it.<Yeah.> Talking about the theological layer.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And so Jonah then is a story that actually captures God's intent from the beginning, but you really don't see much. In fact, in take one of this we were talking about whether there was another example in the Old Testament of a prophet of Israel who went out to another nation.

J.R.:

I can't thi none come to mind. That's not to say that there aren't any, because there may have been, you know, there were other prophets that I don't know, maybe that they did kind of have a chance to connect with a Pagan people group.

David:

Well, certainly when they're in captivity in Babylon,

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

They kind of could play that priestly role.<Right.> But that wasn't intentional as sending out to say, go to this nation. But in the case of Jonah, you have God sending Jonah out go to Assyria.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Go to the enemy. Right?

J.R.:

Yeah. Right.

David:

And tell them Yahweh is king.<Yeah.> And Jonah's not too thrilled about that.

J.R.:

Right, right. Well, there's a touch of it in Exodus that the Egyptians kind of had the opportunity. They clearly rejected the Israelite's God.

David:

Yeah, you could say that.

J.R.:

But they could have, played a priestly role perhaps. But anyway, yeah. All this ties into the theological layer of looking at the Jonah story. How does this play into the overall redemption arc of the entire biblical narrative? I think this is a really good story that actually connects Old Covenant and New Covenant or Old Testament and New Testament.

David:

Yeah. And in that way it sort of is a forerunner maybe to the Apostle Paul's role of saying, I'm going to take the gospel to the Gentiles, right? Except Paul does it willingly. Right? And so it would kind of almost be a neat study to contrast the Jonah story and the Apostle Paul.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Because they're both, you could say, taking the gospel to<Yeah.> the Gentiles. One does it willingly and one does it grudgingly.

J.R.:

Right, yeah. One's gotta be swallowed and spit out before he

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

Before he walks that direction, right?

David:

But I do think that's an important theological layer though, when you start talking about Jonah being swallowed by the whale. Why does all that happen? Well, because God is saying, you know, my heart is that you all take this larger role in being priests to the other nations.<Right.> And you're not doing it.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And so I'm gonna kind of give you a little boost out the door here.<Yeah.> And get your attention. And if you don't pick up that part in the Jonah story, then you're missing a big part of it, right?

J.R.:

Sure. Okay. So No, that's good. So we have the historical context of what's going on. We have a theological, how it ties into the larger narrative. What's the next layer? Ethical, moral layer?

David:

The ethical. Moral, yeah.

J.R.:

Okay. Yeah. What can we get ethically from this story?

David:

So one thing I jotted down was, I mean, the ethical, moral, there's a lot, but one thing I jotted down was this idea that one of the morals that the Jonah story definitely teaches is it's safer to be aligned with what God is calling you to do.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

You might say it's safer to be in God's will than to be in the comfort and security of your own home, but out of God's will.<Yeah.> Or something like that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's what this layer is, right? Let's really get it down to the personal level and say, what can I take from this for me?

J.R.:

Right.

David:

Right? And the one thing I would take from it off the top of my head is that yeah, I would rather be following God.<Right.> Doing his will. Even something scary.

J.R.:

Yeah, sure. A potentially dangerous situation, which Jonah was clearly in. You know, you going into a hostile nation than being safe and sound, and out of God's will, that's the more dangerous place to be.

David:

That's the more dangerous place because Jonah runs and he ends up being engulfed, swallowed by this whale. Which is basically like saying look, you're not gonna run from God.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

If you think you're gonna ignore the call of God. And you think you're just gonna be safe and secure on your couch playing video games, right? I have, means of getting your attention. And you don't want God trying to get your attention like that.

J.R.:

Right, Yeah. I just immediately think of the Sunday school lesson of you can't run from God and the silliness of, well, I'm gonna go to the bottom of the boat. Which is just absurd, even as a 6-year-old, I kinda laughed at that. But sure, sometimes it's good to have a solid story that kind of demonstrates how absurd and silly that is. You can't run from God.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

I think there's a song about that actually.

David:

Let's see. Any other moral well, yes, there's plenty ethical, I mean, there's a ton, but any that come to mind real quick?

J.R.:

Well, the one quick thing that I'll say that the moral layer that I get out of this is that Jonah is four chapters, I believe, and all we really know about it or the Sunday school story is the first three chapters.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

And it's funny to hit that fourth chapter because it's kind of a strange, it may be the first two chapters anyway, you have the Sunday school story of Jonah and the whale. And then he goes and witnesses and happily ever after. But if you read the book right, there's another chapter, maybe two, I forget exactly. But you know, Jonah sulks and pout about it.'Cause he wanted God to destroy the city. And he's like, come on God. You know, you kind of made a promise. If they didn't repent, then you destroy the city. And I was certain they wouldn't repent and dadgummit they did. And so he was upset about that, and so there's kind of a moral there that, I don't know something about you can call for God's justice, but be reluctant to accept God's mercy. Especially when it comes, you know, we're quick to grab God's mercy, but we think it's unfair when other people sometimes get God's mercy.

David:

Yeah. Especially people you would consider your enemies.

J.R.:

Sure.

David:

And, you can think of, I don't know, you can think of Hamas, right? Or something like that. Like they're the enemy. God judged them.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

And then God says, no, actually, I want you to I want you to get on Greta's Flotilla and go witness to them. You know?<Yeah.> And you're like, wait, wait, what? Come again.

J.R.:

Yeah. Do you know what they do to people over there that proclaim this, right? You know, You sure this is the plan, right?

David:

Yeah. But the moral layer there would say, the story of Jonah reflects God's heart for people that you and I would even consider our enemy, right?

J.R.:

Right. Or God's enemy. Sure.

David:

Or God's, yeah.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

The enemy of God even.

J.R.:

Yeah. That we're all created beings and he has a place in his heart for all of us, and yeah, sometimes it can be hard to wrap our head around that. And that's sort of another moral component to the story of Jonah, that Jonah and it never really said that he kind of made peace with it. He was kind of pouting all the way to the end, and then.

David:

In fact, the story ends, I think it ends pretty abruptly where he's still sulking under this plant and<Right.> it's not a happily ever after. It's more like Jonah's is still like in a huff going, Well, that stinks.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

What happens now? And that's kind of where the story ends, right?

J.R.:

And I think that's intentional. I'll get into this later when we talk about the number 40. I wanna talk about this later. Okay. Okay. We'll stick a pin in that one too. I wanna come back to that.'cause I think that's a key part to that story.

David:

Okay.

J.R.:

Yeah. Okay. So there's our, ethical moral layer. What do we got? Esca, I, I should let you say it. Es eschatological. Eschatological. And the, mystical layer, right?

David:

Yeah. This one might be a little more challenging, but this is maybe how the Bible specifically points to the culmination,

J.R.:

right.

David:

Of the Kingdom of God.

J.R.:

Yeah. We talked about last episode, how this eschatological layer is actually pointing to the end of something. Right? Pointing to the culmination. Yes. That's what that word means. Right. And so, I mean, well I think it, it doesn't really point necessarily to end times. That might be a reach, but I think it does point we were just talking about. I think it does point to the end, meaning the New Testament to the new covenant. It does point to the future in that way.

David:

Yeah. So it looks ahead to the new covenant, right? And that's something you could look at, which is basically

J.R.:

the ultimate completion.

David:

Yeah. Yeah. I think in some ways. Alright. You think about, so we've talked about this, we've talked about how the stories in the Bible can kind of be fractals of the larger story.<Yeah.> And if you look at how is the Bible pointing to the culmination of time or the culmination of what God is doing in the world.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

I think it's legitimate to see the story of Jonah going to the Ninevites as a smaller pattern of that.<Yeah.> In that God is saying, my word is going to reach the ends of the world.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And then what? And then my will will culminate.<Yeah.> Or something along those lines. No, it's, but okay. So when you look at it that way, then Nineveh, and even think about it on a map, and this is how these layers fit together, right? Yeah. On a map, it's like Jonah having to go to Nineveh is kind of the extent of the known world at that time.

J.R.:

Okay.

David:

You know what I mean?<Yeah.> That's kind edge is the edge, right? Now we're starting to get into the symbolic, but Ninevah is the edge, right?<Yeah.> So my word will go to the edges of the world, before what? Before the completion of what I'm up to. I dunno if that makes sense, but in a small way,<No.> the story of Jonah and the whale represents God saying this is one little, I can't think of the word.

J.R.:

Well, okay. So it's sort of like, this is like a seed of the gospel. This is something that turns into a gospel story later on, centuries later. And, yeah, it grows into, hindsight, you can see it clearly at the time, obviously they wouldn't have seen this. But in hindsight, you look back and it's like, yeah, this is the ushering in of the kingdom of God. This is a small pattern of the ultimate end of ushering the kingdom of God here on earth. The kingdom of heaven here on earth.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

So yeah, it's sort of a seed of the gospel.

David:

Yeah. And I guess that's more, I was thinking of is the New Testament talks about the word's gonna go from Judea to Samaria to the very ends of the world, right? And in some way, the story of Jonah and the whale is Jonah taking the gospel grudgingly.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

Not the gospel as we know it in the New Testament yet to the ends of the world. And then the end will come.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

So it's a small pattern of that.

J.R.:

Right. No, I think this is actually a good story to pick because there really is kind of a clear pattern of that<Yeah.> in the future. And this is a tricky layer because, I think we had talked about doing maybe the prodigal son or, kind of doing it through these other layers. This is actually an easier one to see that layer maybe than some other stories.

David:

Yeah, yeah.

J.R.:

Perhaps, but okay.

David:

Yeah, we won't spend too much time on that one'cause that's maybe a little tougher.

J.R.:

Yeah. Well, it's just, you know, just trying to give an example of how you can approach it with these five layers and how you can lay it over a story and get a more complete picture, a deeper understanding of what this story represents. As opposed to the Sunday school version of it.

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

Okay. So that's the first four. And then the final one is the symbolic or the mythic layer.

David:

Yeah. This is where you and I can spend a lot of time.

J.R.:

Oh, I know. No, this would be a good one to do a whole episode on.

David:

It would, and we've talked about the idea of maybe taking common stories from the Bible and really unpacking

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

The symbolic meaning.

J.R.:

Yeah. Getting into the mythic part of it. Right. So yeah, on the surface, just right away, man, this is the hero's journey, isn't it?

David:

Yeah. It's a classic hero's journey tale.

J.R.:

Yeah. The hero's journey is the call, the journey, the descent to the underworld, the return.

David:

It's the call, but then it's a reluctance, right?

J.R.:

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

David:

It's being overwhelmed by the task. Of course, you see that in Jonah. And then, yeah, Jonah, he has to take the mythic journey. He gets on this boat, he's thrown overboard. He's swallowed by the whale. And that specifically we should talk about next, but

J.R.:

Oh yeah.

David:

Then he actually gets back on the path. Right? So he gets diverted from the journey, which is classic part of it. Yeah. He gets back on the path and ultimately gets to his final destination. And in the hero's journey, what the completion of the journey somehow transformed society, right?<Right.> And that's what happens in Nineveh.

J.R.:

Right, but it doesn't transform Jonah. That's an interesting aspect to this story.

David:

It is.'cause it diverts from the hero's journey in that aspect because we all expect Jonah to to be transformed by this, right? And he's not. There's no indication of the story that he is.

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah. This is the same pattern you see in Marvel movies. If you wanna take Spider-Man, they never just have this awesome power and go out and save the world. They always stumble, they're always reluctant. They always kind of have that moment where they're saying, I didn't ask for this power. And they're screaming and shaking their fist at the sky, right? Yeah. They don't want this responsibility. And so they kind of stumble and they get knocked down a peg and then they learn from that. And then of course they rise up at the last moment to defeat the foe. You know, so that's the classic hero's journey and,<sure> you see it today.

David:

Alright. So let's talk about specifically being swallowed by the whale.<Yeah.>'cause this is where it really gets interesting.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Okay. So first of all, the big question is always from our modern, rational perspective, is it a whale? The Bible says a fish, right? Could a whale actually swallow a person? Right?<Yeah.> This is the over literalization of the story.

J.R.:

Yeah, I was just about to say, this is where you get in the weeds of the literal, it's like, well, it says it's a fish and a whale's not really a fish. And you're like, this isn't a biology lesson.

David:

Yeah. So what, what do we?

J.R.:

He got swallowed by something.

David:

So what do we think? I mean, it is such a strange thing to say he was swallowed by a whale.

J.R.:

Well, sure. Even if it was a whale, you know, I think biologists have argued that that's impossible or that doesn't work that way. And I obviously don't know these things.

David:

I always heard this story that there was actually someone who was swallowed.

J.R.:

I heard that too.

David:

And he ended up being bleached white because of the stomach acid, but he survived.

J.R.:

Yeah. A Cuban fisherman

David:

A Cuban fisherman. Really?

J.R.:

That's what I re that's what I heard. You know? Okay. This is pre-internet, so I mean, it wasn't easy to check, but I remember hearing that as a kid that some fisherman, a Cuban fisherman, was in a boat and got swallowed by a whale so it can happen. Now, I don't know about the three days part, but again, this is perfect. This is ripe for the symbolism.<Yeah.> who else was swallowed by something and drug to the depth for three days to reemerge? Hmm.

David:

Yeah. What does that mean? What does that remind three days in the underworld, right?

J.R.:

Right.

David:

And I think someone in the New Testament even makes that connection, right?

J.R.:

Yes.

David:

Yeah. So this is worth looking up real quick. So, alright. Yeah. So Luke chapter 11 actually talks about the sign of Jonah. Okay. Couple verses here."As the crowds increase, Jesus said,'this is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be giving it except the sign of Jonah.'" Right? So Jesus says, it's kind of a weird thing to say. As the crowds increase, Jesus says to them, this is a wicked generation. So maybe they understand, he's not directing it completely at them, but at the culture and the generation at the time. But he says none will be given this sign except the sign of Jonah. Okay. So what's the sign of Jonah? Then Jesus says, for as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the son of man be to this generation? So what would he be talking about the sign of Jonah being, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. No, that's cool. I mean, well that's the New Testament looking into the symbolic layer of the Old Testament. It's almost like the, New Testament confirmation of the symbolic layer that we're talking about.

David:

Yeah. It's exactly what is going on here.

J.R.:

Yeah. He's saying, you know.

David:

He's looking back at the story of Jonah, right? And he said there is a what? The story of Jonah represents a sign. Right?<Right.> And what is the sign? It's the three days in the belly of the whale.<Yeah.> It's the three days, and then reemerging.

J.R.:

Yes.

David:

And that would be the sign of Jonas who said, no sign will be given except a sign of Jonah. And also the son of man will be to this generation. Yeah. So he's looking to the time of his own death.<Mm-hmm.> Three days in the grave and rising again. And that would be the sign of Jonah, basically.

J.R.:

Yeah. Which is really cool because the listeners at the time that were literally hearing Jesus say those words, they'd have to be looking at each other. The sign of Jonah. What do you think that means? Yeah. Is there a fish coming? Is there, what's?

David:

Is this guy gonna be swallowed by a whale? Right.

J.R.:

Right. They knew the story, obviously, but they didn't know how that was gonna play itself out in the life of Jesus. But he said that basically for our benefit to look back, he knew that we would look back and that the gospel writers would include this story because it's so obvious in retrospect. But at the time, I don't know that they would've picked up on that.

David:

Yeah. And I don't know that they would've.<Yeah.> But Jesus throws this kind of cryptic idea out there, right? In a way of saying, pay attention to me and what I'm about to do. And this will make sense in hindsight. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Right?

J.R.:

Yeah. But that's cool, you know, that Jesus himself sort of takes that symbolic layer of the story of Jonah. And spells it out for'em.

David:

And then he even ends by saying, the men of Nineveh will stand in judgment with this generation and condemn it. So there again, your enemies, you know, your historic enemies, will stand in judgment of this generation. Yeah.'Cause you're asking for a sign and the only sign that's gonna be given to you is the sign of Jonah.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Go figure that one out, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. No, that's cool.

David:

That's basically, what he's saying to him.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

Because the sign of Jonah is here. Yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah, you're right. We could just go on and on with the mythic stuff, but that's just a taste, that's sort of just a surface level analysis of what we're talking about. So that's really cool. You can actually do this with, most stories kind of go through these five layers and you'll be able to pull the deeper meaning of these stories if you just Yeah. Allow yourself to put on those colored glasses, so to speak.

David:

There is one more part of this that I want to get into before we move on, which is this idea of what the great fish is.

J.R.:

Oh, right. Okay.

David:

And we say you know the children's version, it's a whale, right? Right. It's actually a great fish and people will point out that it says fish. But if you go back through the Old Testament and look at what was the creature that represented the great fish of the ocean, it would be what?

J.R.:

Yeah, the Leviathan.

David:

It would be the Leviathan, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah.

David:

And so the picture then, if you think of it that way, mm-hmm. The picture is the leviathan comes and swallows Jonah up. Yeah. He spends three days and I think actually it even says he pulls him down to the deep. I think the Bible says something like that.

J.R.:

Right.

David:

So he dives down, pulls him down to the deep, but what's that a picture of? It's the Leviathan pulling Jonah into the underworld.

J.R.:

Yes. It's the chaos monster of the sea.<Yes.> Pulling you into the underworld. Yeah.

David:

And so from that standpoint, I think it's really important to see the image of Jonah spending three days in the underworld, right? And again, who does that sound like?

J.R.:

Yeah, sure. Well, that's the point, is when Jesus was, he wasn't just dead in a tomb waiting for his third day so he could wake back up. It says was it Peter,

David:

I think it was Peter that said he was proclaiming the gospel.

J.R.:

Pro proclaiming the gospel to those in chains. Yeah. They're basically saying those in the underworld. Yeah, those in Sheol. Yeah. And so he wasn't just laying there waiting for his time. He was actually busy doing something in the underworld.

David:

Yeah, that's right. And there again, it's a neat idea that Jesus does this willingly. Jonah does it unwillingly. So while Jesus is actually spending three days in the underworld proclaiming the victory of God. Jonah spends three days in the underworld. What, sulking?

J.R.:

Right? Well, yeah. Okay. So I just, this just hit me. Maybe that's why the story of Jonah ends with this unknown. Did he get it? Did he wake up? It's meant to convey here's this prophet of God that is trying to pattern, the redemption that's to come. But he did it incomplete. In fact, he just did an incomplete story. It's intentionally an incomplete story so that when you juxtapose it to the story of Jesus, you can say that's what the completed cycle should have looked like.

David:

This is what it looks like for someone to take the hero's journey of Jonah. Yeah, but do it willingly.

J.R.:

Yeah, and do it completely.

David:

And do it completely.

J.R.:

Yes. No, that's cool. That's actually really, really no, was neat. that's a neat way to look at it. And so in that way, I mean then it's not just, we're missing the last page of the story of Jonah, where they live happily ever after. It's intentionally pulled the plug a little bit early so that we scratch our heads and like, well, is that it? That's weird. Well, again, standing by itself, it is a little strange, but when you tie it into the broader context and you know how to attach these stories together and you accept the symbolic layer and project it forward to the life of Christ, man, now that looks very intentional.

David:

It's meant to be incomplete. It's like a TV show, season one that just leaves you with all these questions.

J.R.:

Yeah. The cliff hanger.

David:

You go, this feels incomplete. Yeah. Well. Because, yeah, they want you to watch next season, right?

J.R.:

Oh yeah. Yeah. You ever watch that movie and it's not even a great movie, but at the end it's like you just roll your eyes thinking, oh, okay. They're trying to set up a part two. Usually it's after the credits, you find, oh yeah, yeah. The egg of the monster starts to hatch. You're like, ah, the first one was bad enough. You gotta deal with another one. Right. No, I think that's what yeah, narratively they're doing, they're leaving a cliffhanger, so you can say, Hey, just wait a few thousand years for part two.

David:

And maybe, I don't know, it's interesting because Jesus says the sign of Jonah, I wonder if there was some idea of the sign of Jonah. It would be interesting to see if Yeah. To see what people, any other writings. Kind of reflect this sign of Jonah is kind of this incomplete story that's not very satisfying that is begging for a completion, right? Yeah. It's begging for someone to come in and complete the cycle.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And do it right.

J.R.:

No, that's cool. I yeah, I'm sure we're not the first ones to figure that one out. You know that some ancient writers have figured that out.

David:

Oh, yeah.

J.R.:

That's cool though. I hadn't thought about that because the sign of Jonah, what would that have been? Yeah, you're exactly right. What would they have been thinking? It's not every day that a fish swallows somebody but the sign of Jonah may be the reluctant witness and the incomplete.<Yeah. Yeah.> The incomplete what prophet or something like that.

David:

And maybe even in their day there were, there are these people who wrestled with, you know, Jesus throws out this idea of the sign of Jonah, and there are people going. Is he gonna be swallowed by a whale? And others are going, I think you're taking this way too literally.

J.R.:

No, no. You know, like, let's don't get stuck on the literal layer, dude.

David:

Yeah. There's layers of meaning here.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

There's some nuance here.

J.R.:

Yeah. Haven't you heard the podcast? Yeah. Right. No, that's a neat idea. No, it is, it is. But okay, so just sitting down here spit balling through these layers, we've come up with a deeper meaning. And we really have something kind of something I've never thought of.

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

Yeah. And, and so I don't know.

David:

So we've talked about these historical connections. We've also talked about how it ties into the larger story of scripture, but in an incomplete way that is begging for completion. So it's pointing to the person of Christ. Yeah. We've talked about the symbolism in the fish in the three days and the underworld, like all that stuff. And suddenly the story of Jonah takes on this whole new life.

J.R.:

Yeah. And so, okay, I guess one of the questions that someone might ask going through these layers would be, it's just our rational mind that wants to say, okay, which one of these layers is true though?

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

You know what I mean? And, And our answer is no. I mean, what happens when all of these layers are true? Yeah. Maybe that's a better way to say it. And this is a great story to do this with because there really is meaning to every one of these layers. And so don't get hung up on, well so tell me was a man swallowed by a whale for 3 24 hour days? It's like, you're stuck on that layer, man. Don't go there, man.

David:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's the sign of Jonah again, like, I love that phrase now because I, it's almost like you wanna say if someone gets hung up on, no, but is it possible that he literally got swallowed by a fish and you want to go, man, I don't know. But it's the sign of Jonah that's begging you to enter into this story and pay attention to what's going on. Yes. Right?

J.R.:

What happens when everything is true?

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

I mean, not merely the literal.

David:

Okay, so this'll kind of tie into how we wrap this whole series up Is it any less true if you read the fish as the leviathan that pulls him into the underworld as part of the hero's journey?

J.R.:

Right. No, I mean, that's more true. Yeah. Okay. So, and this is the problem. When somebody says something like, let's just, pivot off of Jonah for a second and say, the Earth probably wasn't created in 7 24 hour days or something. You've heard these arguments, you know? Yeah. There's a fear that what they're saying is that the Bible isn't true, and that's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that parts of the Bible aren't literal, and you have to understand that tension between literal and true. And what I've learned through these podcasts is that literal and true aren't always the same thing. That truth has a way of capturing meaning, but something literal can be as trivial as brushing my teeth. Right? Yeah. Well, that's true, and that's literal, but it doesn't have any meaning behind it. But truth has meaning. It actually points to something. It captures meaning.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

And that's kind of a good way to look at the difference between literal and truth. Sometimes they can be the same thing. But they don't have to be the same thing.

David:

So we went through a story of Jonah, but there are other parts of the Bible that we have said throughout this podcast of it's true, but it's pointing something different. We've talked before about the number 40.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Right. You talk about the number 40, how many times you see it in the Bible and is it really talking about a literal 40 calendar year period.

J.R.:

Right, yeah. Never 38 and never 46.

David:

Why is it never, yeah.

J.R.:

It always lands on 40, right? Yeah. 40 years in the wilderness. 40 days and 40 nights of rain, 40 days in the wilderness for Jesus being tempted.

David:

Okay, so by the way, I just saw this in this story as we were reading, how long does God give the Ninevites to repent?

J.R.:

Oh, yeah. 40 days.

David:

40 days, right?

J.R.:

Well, doesn't Jonah preach for 40 days? Yeah. Something like that. Well, I guess, yeah, same thing. That's how long he gives him.'cause that's how long Jonah preaches. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a mistake. And I wanna come back to that idea of 40. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So there's all these numbers of 40. And so again, if you get hung up on the literal, you get into these questions like, how can a man survive in the wilderness 40 days and 40 nights without any water or food?'Cause that's what Jesus did when he was tempted in the wilderness. And you get hung up. That's impossible. You'll die of dehydration the longest anybody's gone, you know, is 22 days or something like that. You have all this scientific, literal interpretation and you just miss the broader context. So we've said this in previous episodes, the number 40 means the division between two separate epochs, two separate time periods, and the often difficult journey across that division. Okay. So now take that framework and lay it over all these number forties that you see in the Bible. So, the flood in Noah, you know, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. Well, that's a clear division between timeframes, you know, you have the pre-flood. We even speak in terms of, what's the term that means pre-flood?

David:

Anti-diluvian.

J.R.:

Anti-diluvian. Yeah, the anti-deluvian. So there's clear division in timeframe to andi-deluvian and post-deluvian. And the difficult journey across that is obviously that you're on the ark, and if you're gonna make it across the wilderness, you need to build an ark that's gonna take you across that. Yeah. Right. And so that's how you journey through the wilderness. But yeah, you overload that idea of 40 with Jesus in the wilderness. That's a clear delineation; that was his official call to ministry. Right? That's how we see that. Yeah. And so before that, Jesus is a child on earth. He's a boy. He's growing up to be a young man, and we really don't know much about that because that's his pre ministry. And then John the Baptist baptizes him. He immediately gets called out into the wilderness. That's his difficult journey across these two epochs. And you can do this with every time you come into contact with the number 40, you can see that it's a clear journey. The Israelites and the wilderness. I mean, that's a clear division.

David:

40 years. Yeah. Yeah. So you can think of it as 40 is the time between one world ending and a new one beginning, right? Another way to say that, right? Yeah. 40. In fact, I think the ancients, I'll ask you too, I think the ancient would see that is, that's 40, that's what the time period is. But do you think, is the ancients we're hearing this, do you think they heard 40 as 40 calendar years or it would automatically click to them that a transformation is taking place?

J.R.:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm convinced of that. The ancients, they immediately see 40 and it pops up, you know, I'm trying to think of a number that does that to us.

David:

Well, okay, so one number of this might be 18, right? What does 18 represent? It's 18 is your childhood.

J.R.:

Oh, okay. Yeah.

David:

And so you could say 18 is the distance between your birth and when you're ready to set out into the world, right? Yeah. Right. And again, we don't employ a lot of symbolism today, but you could say you know, 18 is the number of years required before someone is ready to set out into the world, or something like that, right?

J.R.:

Yeah. Or the number 13. I don't think anybody really gets hung up too much on this, but you know, like lots of buildings don't have 13th floor because there's a Right?

David:

Superstitious, right.

J.R.:

Yeah. Superstitious. So that's about, I mean, you're right, we don't have much of that, but no, to go back to the idea of 40. Yes, I think when they heard 40, they immediately understood this idea of it. This is yeah, one world ending a difficult transition into another world. Yeah. A new world beginning. Yeah. No, I think they immediately knew that.

David:

Yeah. Okay. So when we go back to the story of Jonah, and I did find it here, Jonah, chapter three, verse four. Jonah began by going a day's journey into the city, proclaiming 40 more days, and Nineveh will be overthrown, right? So what does he mean by saying in 40 days, if you don't repent? This world will end basically, your world will end.

J.R.:

Right. Okay. So this goes back to what we talked about last episode. The pattern of water, wilderness, mountaintop, and the mountain specifically is ascending to the top of the mountain. You meet God and then descending the mountain to bring that news to the people. And the wilderness is typically 40. We run into that over and over. So now, I mean, just overlay that symbolism to this story and it brings on new meaning.'Cause what you obviously have the water component, you know, the sea, being thrown in the sea. Yeah, yeah. Obviously being swallowed up. And then is the wilderness. And this is interesting because Jonah's wilderness journey was actually preaching to the Ninevites.

David:

Yeah, that's right.

J.R.:

I mean, that was his miserable quest to get across one world ending in the other world emerging. So that's a cool aspect to think that was Jonah's wilderness was preaching. You know, normally you'd say, that's what every prophet wants to do is proclaim the word of God, but he was in complete misery. That was his wilderness experience is actually preaching the word of God to that.

David:

That was his 40 days in the wilderness. Yes. And again, well, okay, so this is interesting because again, Jonah spends that 40 days in his own wilderness grumbling, reluctant.<Yep.> it's the anti-pattern, right? To Christ who spends 40 days in the wilderness willingly<Right.> preparing himself.

J.R.:

Yep. Absolutely.

David:

Wow, that's really cool.

J.R.:

Yeah. Okay. And then you got the mountain, right? So it doesn't really say mountain, but Jonah ascends the hill and speaks to God, right? He does his wilderness journey. He does his duty and preaches to the Ninevites, and then he goes up on a hill.'cause he's expecting to set back and watch the fireworks. Right?<Yeah.> There's no way they're gonna buy into this. So he climbs the mountain. He meets God there, right?'cause he has this whole conversation to God. Yeah. And this is the interesting part of the story. The incompleteness, another incomplete image symbolically. It pulls the plug. Remember Moses, he ascends the mountain, he meets God, he gets the 10 Commandments. What does he do? He brings it back to the people. Mm-hmm. Elijah, he ascends, I forget the mountain. He ascends a mountain. He meets God. He brings that back to the people. You could do this over and over and over with the pattern.

David:

So what's missing in the Jonas story?

J.R.:

Yes. There you go. That's the point. And I think the ancient listeners would've immediately said, wait, he's supposed to bring that back. He brings it back to the people, right? No, we don't know that. You know, again, just an abrupt end, an awkward ending that makes you say, wait, that can't be the end. That is no happily ever after. And it's that incompleteness that is the sign of Jonah.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

I think that's it.

David:

It's waiting for the completion.

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

And the completion comes with Christ.

J.R.:

Okay. You just read something else that I jump saw into. This is great. You gotta say this.

David:

I just saw this because a couple verses later before that it said,"Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord, and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city. It took three days to go through it." Now, I've heard people get hung up on this to say, how does it take three days to walk around a city, right? What does that mean?

J.R.:

Right. You could walk around New York City in three days.

David:

Oh sure. Yeah.

J.R.:

Right. You know, Nineveh can't be that big as one of our largest cities in the world, right? So here, let's get stuck on the literal, let's get hung up here, right?

David:

Yeah. Okay. So what does it mean then that it took three days to journey through? Gosh.

J.R.:

Yeah. Well, okay, so you got that symbolism of Christ witnessing to those in chains in Sheol.<Yeah.> And how long did he do that?

David:

Three days in the tomb. Yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah. So it's almost like it's painting this picture of, it took three days to walk through the city and connect with the people to witness. Not literally three days to make the walk. It's three days to journey and get to all the little villages, the burrows and to proclaim this message. And so it's, a complete mirror of Jesus proclaiming the message to those in the underworld, in Sheol.

David:

But it's also a mirror image of Jonah spending three days in the whale, right? So in that sense, man, this is really cool because to go to Nineveh and it took three days to go through, is another picture of Jonah going to the underworld where he's supposed to proclaim, right? Yeah. He's supposed to spend three days proclaiming to the underworld. And here, Nineveh is the underworld. Because they're, the pagan city. They're set against God. And so it's almost like a second opportunity for Jonah to go to the underworld and proclaim for three days and he doesn't do it right. Yeah. It's incomplete. Well, he, he, it's a subtle way of saying that.

J.R.:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does it begrudgingly.

David:

He does eventually. And that's where we get to the 40 days. So he has 40 days now. But that's such a weird detail to say it took three days to go through the city. Well, it's a picture of spending three days in the underworld, right? Just like he did in the whale. And just like Christ is going to do with his death on the cross.

J.R.:

Right. No, that is so cool. And, if you were trying to measure distance or something, you would do it in qubits or spans or however the Bible does it, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because it does this in other places, this city is so and so wide and, a mile wide, you know, all these types of other measurements. But that's a strange way to portray it. That it took three days to walk across it and again, in our rational minds we looked at and say, oh, it's trying to say this is a heck of a big city. Takes three days to walk across it. Yeah. When that's not at all what it's trying to say.

David:

Right. Yeah.

J.R.:

I mean, you know, you just stick with the pattern.

David:

Yeah.

J.R.:

Okay, Well this is so good because it's just one of those, this is exactly in our wheelhouse of what we love to do is try to break down these stories in a symbolic way, and sometimes just in the middle of the conversation, the light bulb goes off for both of us. I think this is what the Bible is supposed to do. It's supposed to draw you into the story. And again, if you fixate on one single layer or if you fixate on interpreting every aspect as literal. Man, you're just missing so much. There's so much more than the children's flannel graft story of the man being swallowed by a fish. And that's perfectly fine and acceptable. There's lessons to be learned for six year olds, but we're, I won't even say our age, but we're, we're way past six. And so, man, we want something deeper. And the thing is, it's been there the whole time. It's just we miss it sometimes. Yeah.'cause we insist on a particular way of interpreting it.

David:

And so the more we unpack this and look, we didn't even sit here and study Jonah. No. This is just you and I batting some ideas around and I pull it up on my laptop and some of these patterns start to jump out. But the more you study even a story like Jonah, the more real, the whole thing becomes to me.

J.R.:

Oh yeah.

David:

And the more I'm like, man, I want to dig into this now. Yeah. And the more, gosh, all these layers we were talking about, the theological layer, right? The symbolic layer.<Yeah.> Actually, I will say truly, I haven't seen the story of Jonah and this whole sign of Jonah as a picture of what happens to Christ<Oh yeah.> in the grave so clearly as we just talked about.

J.R.:

Oh yeah. One of the first things I'm gonna do after this episode is Google the sign of Jonah and say, what does that mean? You know, kind of dig in a little bit to what some ancient church writers, said about that.'cause I think that's a key to this whole story.

David:

And so then you circle around, back to the question of, cause I could still hear people saying, but you haven't answered my question.

J.R.:

Yeah. You're not answering the question.

David:

Did he get swallowed by a whale? Right. And the answer is, to quote one of the people that we both like, you know, it's like, I don't know what else to tell you. Yeah. Except we've just unpacked so much truth and meaning in this story. Yeah. That if you're actually hung up on whether or not he got literally swallowed by a fish. I don't know what else to tell you.

J.R.:

Yeah, no. You've seen a wonderful painting of the pattern of reality right in front of you, and we're going to worry about what day of the week this happened on, or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's just it does seem so trite when you have this beautiful picture of the symbolic and the historic shaking hands, you know, and you see this amazing symphony to use that term from last episode. Mm-hmm. This amazing symphony come forward, and it just seems so trite to worry about those things. I'm so far past that.

David:

Here's Yeah. Here's another way to say it. If we go back to the scientist who, I guess you say it was a Cuban fisherman, right? Who got swallowed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the stomach acid bleached his skin white so that we have proof.

J.R.:

Somewhere there's a Peruvian fisherman saying,"I'm telling you it was me." Quit calling me Cuban. I'm from Peru.

David:

Well, and I go back to Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea, right? It was the marlin. It was the great marlin.

J.R.:

Yeah. Yeah.

David:

It wasn't a flounder. Right, right. It was talking about symbolism. Right?

J.R.:

Oh, yeah, yeah, there you go.

David:

I guess another way to say it is, if you come back and say, well, there, see, the Bible is true because now we know that a fish swallowed a man.

J.R.:

Right, right. That's not helpful.

David:

Would that make the story more satisfying?

J.R.:

Right. I mean, to some people.

David:

Would you have gotten the point of the story?

J.R.:

Yeah. Some people it satisfies them. Yeah, but not me. When you unpack all these layers and you see the amazing picture with the depth that's right in front of you with all those layers and all of it being true at the same time. Yeah, man, that's a picture. That's the depth that we want to go. Yeah. That's what I strive for and that's what I think, I don't know, I think it's lacking in particularly guys our age.

David:

And, yeah, to tie off that,'cause I was just thinking of that exact same thing So if you say okay, now we know that Jonah's swallowed by a fish. Okay, so what does that mean for how I go live tomorrow? Yeah. That doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Maybe stay outta the ocean, But if you talk about this idea of this is Jonah's quest and he's wrestling with God, and what does he do in response to being dragged to the underworld versus what did Jesus do when he was dragged to the underworld, and what will my response be to whatever it is that drags me to my underworld, right?

J.R.:

Yeah.

David:

Because that's part of the hero's journey that we all go on. Sure. And as a guy our age who sits in church, I don't know. That's inspiring to me.

J.R.:

Sure it is, man. I wanna be a part of that journey. I wanna be a part of that adventure. And like we said before, man, the truth calls you, man. The truth is so much more than literal than what I ate for breakfast. You know, this kind of goes back to our truth episode where we talked about the hierarchies of truth. And the layers to truth that there is, I know that in church it's, not really, you know, you kind of bristle at the idea of my truth, this is my truth, you know?'cause you hear people kind of proclaiming that online, things like that. There's a pushback to that, say, no, no, there is no such thing as your truth. There's just such thing as truth. And we broke that down and we're like, well, there is such thing as your truth. It just has its place. You know, I do like pepperoni pizza, and you may not, and there is my truth, my path, my journey, whether I had a loving family or a messed up family, all that plays into my truth and the way I view the world. It's just that it's at the bottom rung of the hierarchy. And when you have a deeper truth, like, what we're pulling out of this Jonah story, well you know, my truth suddenly doesn't matter as much. You can see the deeper layers of truth on top of that. So my point is, is if you get stuck on that scientific, literal insistence of the truth and that's your narrow definition of it, you're gonna miss all the symbolism. Yeah. And you're gonna miss that deep adventure that you're being called into, that truth is actually pulling us into.

David:

Yeah. And I guess to wrap it up, I would say a couple things. One is this idea of, you know, don't take any of this the wrong way, to wrestle with the possibility that God can do miracles and these things literally happened is certainly in the realm of possibility.

J.R.:

Yeah, that's fine.

David:

What we're saying is if that's the main takeaway from stories of the Bible. That there was a global flood and Noah built an ark and survived; that Jonah was swallowed by a literal fish.

J.R.:

Yeah. That the world was created in 7 24-hour days, right.

David:

And all those things may be possible.<Sure.> But if that's your main takeaway, you're missing, just a wellspring of meaning. Oh, yeah. In all of these stories.

J.R.:

Yeah. If that's the hill you're willing to die on, then man, there's so much more to the journey that we're trying to kind of open up to you and say, get the complete thing, man. Get the complete picture, not the partial picture that reinforces your particular hangup. You know what I mean? Take the whole thing in.'cause the whole thing is an invitation to us. And, again, I mean, I can tell you how much I enjoyed this episode just breaking this down kind of on the fly. Again, we've always said our best episodes are the ones that go off script and that we don't really have an outline for. And yeah. Yeah. We kind of dug into, this. We actually started off the episode saying, okay, let's spend about 15, 20 minutes on the layers of meaning in Jonah and then we'll get onto the rest of the episode. And no just the whole episode was pretty much that.

David:

Weaving it in.

J.R.:

Yeah. Kind of pulling out that whole story. Enjoy the whole symphony'cause it's all there.

David:

And to tie the whole series together, we've been talking about allow for the fact that the authors might have written these stories in a way that packs all the symbolism in it. Yeah. Because I think, you know, that goes back to, allow the author to convey their intent. Right. And their intent was not always a scientific textbook or a book on oceanography and ocean creatures, right? Right. Their intent was something much deeper. So it raises the question then so do you think the authors were writing this much symbolism into the story? And the answer is yes, because that's how the ancients thought. We are the ones who are trying to catch up Yes. To that kind of thinking, right?

J.R.:

Yes. But to tie in the supernatural, there's no way that the author of the story of Jonah had the forethought to tie in how this was gonna be a reflection of the future work of Christ.

David:

And that's where we tie in this idea of it's the inspired word of God because only God could orchestrate that kind of

J.R.:

Yeah, different books.

David:

800 years difference between events that tie together so beautifully, right? Yeah.

J.R.:

Yeah, that's right. That's where you look at it and say, okay. I mean, look, the authors did have this kind of symbolic meaning in their writing initially, but yeah, to tie it to the future and to stitch that together in such an amazing way, Yeah, that has to be divinely inspired. Yeah. No doubt. Wow.

David:

No, this was fun.

J.R.:

Man, we ought to consider doing this to other stories, you know, kinda like we do for the fairytales, except we can do it kind of for Bible stories.

David:

Yeah. Common Bible stories and really just unpacking the crap out of all the symbolism.

J.R.:

Yeah. Dig into the symbolism. But no, I'm glad we kind of accidentally,'cause like we said, we had the prodigal son we were thinking about doing it with. We had, what was the other one?

David:

Well, you can always do, Noah, we've talked about Noah and the ark, you know? Yeah. What does that mean.

J.R.:

Right. But it's kind of cool that we landed on Jonah because man, there's just so much there that No, I like that. Yeah. We didn't even realize until we started talking about it. Yeah, that's right. But this is the journey that the Bible invites you to.

David:

Well, if we do with season four Yeah. Maybe we'll work that in because this is the end of season.

J.R.:

Yeah. Three, right? Yeah, that's right. Alright. What are you gonna do on your break?

David:

I'm going to the cabin in North Carolina.

J.R.:

There you go. Okay. I may join you.

David:

Yeah. If you join me, we'll start batting ideas around for season four.

J.R.:

Yeah. And we would love to hear what the listeners have. I mean, if you have an idea for Stranger Things, you're familiar with that series, if you have an idea for kind of how to decode the Bible, we'd love to hear your opinion on it.

David:

Yeah. If there's something you wanna hear, we really would love to hear your input and we'll try and work it in.

J.R.:

Yeah, that'd be great.

David:

Some, so there's a lot of ways to contact us. You can check out show notes. There's a link to just to send us a quick text message, email address. You can always go to the website Navigating an Ancient Faith. Yep. And we will see you in season four, God willing.

J.R.:

There you go. Okay. Sounds good.

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David Gwartney

Host
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J.R. Gwartney

Co-host