Fairy Tales Overthought: Rumpelstiltskin

We originally released this episode on our YouTube channel, but are making it available on our podcast during our break. 🎙️What if the real lesson of Rumpelstiltskin has nothing to do with guessing a name? 🪡 In this episode, we explore the symbolism behind the classic fairy tale and discuss how hidden powers lose their grip when they are brought into the light and named. 🔆 Along the way, we unpack the story's rich imagery and its surprising relevance today. 

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Watch the video version 📺 : Rumpelstiltskin

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Transcript

Rumplestiltskin 
 

David: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. We're taking a short break during the month of July, but we didn't wanna leave you without something to listen to. Last fall, we recorded two episodes exploring classic fairy tales exclusively for our YouTube channel. Those videos included illustrations, graphics, and visual elements that help bring the stories to life. 

For the next couple of weeks, we're releasing audio-only versions here on the podcast for those of you who haven't made your way over to our YouTube channel. Or if you follow us on a video platform like Spotify, you'll get the full video. Of course, you'll miss out on some of the visuals with just the audio, but the stories and the great conversation still stand on their own. 

We hope you enjoy these two fairy tale episodes, and we'll be back with new content soon 

JR: What if Rumpelstiltskin isn't just a story about a strange little man, but about naming the thing that owns you? In this episode, we explore how the act of naming, whether it's an addiction, an ideology, or a [00:01:00] generational curse, breaks its hidden power. Like the miller's daughter, we often inherit impossible debts from those before us, and the only way out is to finally call the thing by its true name. 

All right, we're back Round two. Wanna do this again? Yeah. We're up here at the cabin, and our goal was to get the last episode done- Yeah ... Sleeping Beauty. Right. And we started talking about the next one, and we started talking about Rumpelstiltskin, and we thought, man, let's just do it. Yeah. Let's just try to capture some of our silly and on-the-fly dialog- Bizarre way of thinking, yeah 

David: yeah, some of the, our, our conversations that we have that our wives roll our eyes at when we get deep into them. Right. Well, the funny thing is you and I basically knew, like the listener, we basically knew the general idea of the story of Rumpelstiltskin. Yeah. But, you know, we pulled it up, and we read it, and we're like, oh, wow, this is, has [00:02:00] all kinds of neat imagery. 

JR: And then we batted it around at the coffee shop, and we came back and said, "Okay, we gotta get this down." Yeah. "We gotta get this out. We gotta name it before it goes away." We have to name it, yeah, to give a little preview of what the main theme of this- Yeah, right, so- ... fairy tale is, but ... Yeah, so how, how would you introduce Rumpelstiltskin as conceptually what's this story about? 

What are the ... what's the broader idea behind it? So there's definitely this idea of what you just said, which is naming something that has power over you, and that may harken back to a little bit of medieval times or even ancient times where that's where that idea came from, right? Yeah, right. The power of a name, and there's a positive spin on that, too, that we'll get into in the Bible. 

Right. A name actually carries a lot of meaning. Yeah, yeah. It's not just the most popular name of the day, right? Right. Right. Yeah. But it's something about like, you know, calling something what it is. Yeah. Calling it out, putting, I don't know, embodying an idea. [00:03:00] And so there's this dual concept of when you say something out loud or you name something, you embody it. 

You bring it into- Mm-hmm ... into fruition, but at the same time you can actually destroy it. It ... within the name is something like the seeds of its own self-destruction or something like that, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And there's also right off the bat, and this is a theme we've seen in other fairy tales, but there's also the theme of the generational curse. 

Right. Right? The father or the mother sets the children up for failure, gets them in over their head, and they have to ... The child has to figure out how to break this curse- Right ... and not curse in the terms of hex, but just a generational curse like we would think of today. Sure, yeah. And the child has to figure out how to either live with this or stop it. 

David: And so this is also a, a tale of the daughter who has to figure out what the, the bad hand that's been dealt to her. Right, how to break the [00:04:00] generational cycle that she's found herself in. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So a little bit of background again about Grimm's fairy tales 'cause that's what we're focusing on. 

JR: Mm-hmm. So the Grimm brothers in the late 1700s, early 1800s, they were in Germany. They became fascinated with folktales, and they went around Ger- Germany, and they started collecting stories Right And the nature of these stories is they went back sometimes hundreds of years. And of course, now we can look back at something... 

David: We talked about Sleeping Beauty last time, how- They trace origins of that all the way back to the 1300s. Right. Right? So some of these have lives that go back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Right. And they're enduring stories for a reason. Yeah. They're passed down orally in a village, in a community, and it's continued to pass down, and kinda every time it pass downs, it's kind of gets filtered, all the nonsense gets filtered out, and you kinda have this pure story that communicates the idea [00:05:00] about- Yeah 

JR: reality, right? Yeah. And so they were the first ones to write this down, so they traveled around, wrote these stories down- Yeah ... packaged it, and here we go. And we've said before that if it wasn't a compelling story or an interesting story or a story that was the pattern of reality, right? Mm-hmm. Reflected the pattern of reality, then they wouldn't have preserved it. 

David: It just would've died out. If I told you- Right ... a dumb story, it would last about a day. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Well, we've all experienced kind of, uh, I don't know, trying to get your kid to go to sleep, and so it's like, "Well, I'm just gonna make up a story," and yeah, that's about how long it lasts, until the kid goes to sleep, and then the story's gone because there was no point to it. 

JR: There's no meaning behind it. And so yeah. Yeah. So yeah, these stories have been preserved. And also what's worth saying before we get into reading the story is that this is another one of those stories that have layered meanings, that you can take it one way and say, "Oh, well this is about," whatever, about addiction or something like that.[00:06:00]  

And it's like, okay, you can read it that way, but then you also have to read it on a deeper layer. So there's multiple layers to it, and we'll obviously get into that as we go along. Mm-hmm. But that's the way most of these stories work themselves out. Because it deals with such a fundamental truth, it can go a, a, a lot of different ways, and so the listener has the opportunity to kind of, what, project their own experience on the story and pull out something new. 

And that's why these things are so rich, because it just depends on the person who's reading it, and it doesn't mean ... I think we said this last time. It doesn't mean you can translate it any old way you want to, you know, uh, or change the story any way you want to, but it does mean that it plays on your individual experience, and you can draw multiple things out of this. 

David: Yeah. We were talking earlier about how these stories capture a pattern of reality, and once you have identified that pattern, that pattern, because it's true, because it's a pattern of reality, it, it replicates itself in so many different ways. It [00:07:00] replicates itself at a personal level- Yeah ... in a familial level- Yeah 

at the cultural level. Right. Right? It, so it manifests itself in many different ways in all these different layers, and by the very nature of a story that has captured the pattern of reality, that story has many layers of meaning, and it will endure. And that's why stories like this are actually compelling to us today when we don't even know why they are. 

JR: Yeah. And kinda answers the question of like, why are these two guys talking about fairy tales all the time? Right. Because we're trying to bring out ... Well, you and I are personally fascinated with these patterns- Yeah ... in the stories- But we're trying to bring out this idea of ancient stories capture a pattern that we need to pay attention to. 

Yeah. And so we're not reading into this too much, right? Right. We're trying to identify why are these enduring. Right. Why do they last? What lessons do they hold from us? Yeah. And so yeah, that's what we're gonna do. Well, what's the quote, uh, those who fail to acquaint theirselves with history are doomed to repeat it, or something like that. 

David: [00:08:00] Yeah. And that's what these stories hold, is they hold some reality, and if you just ignore them or if you just say, "This is a silly child's tale," then you're just gonna... You're kind of doomed to repeat the same patterns that they're trying to give you the solution to break, let's say. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I don't know, we'll let you listen to the story, and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna discuss it. 

JR: All right. There once was a miller who was poor, but he had one beautiful daughter. It happened one day that he came to speak with the king, and to give himself consequence, he told him that he had a daughter who could spin gold out of straw. The king said to the miller, "That is an art that pleases me well. 

Reader: If thy daughter is as clever as you say, bring her to my castle tomorrow that I may put her to the proof." When the girl was brought to him, he led her into a room that was quite full of straw, and gave her a wheel and spindle, and said, "Now set to work. And if by [00:09:00] the early morning thou hast not spun this straw to gold, thou shalt die." 

And he shut the door himself and left her there alone. And so the poor miller's daughter was left there sitting, and could not think what to do for her life. She had no notion how to set to work to spin gold from straw, and her distress grew so great that she began to weep. Then all at once, the door opened, and in came a little man who said, "Good evening, miller's daughter. 

Why are you crying?" "Oh," answered the girl, "I have got to spin gold out of straw, and I don't understand the business." Then the little man said, "What will you give me if I spin it for you?" "My necklace," said the girl. The little man took the necklace, seated himself before the wheel, and whir, whir, 

whir, three times round, and the bobbin was full. [00:10:00] Then he took up another and whir, whir, whir three times round, and that was full. And so he went on till the morning, when all the straw had been spun and all the bobbins were full of gold. At sunrise came the king, and when he saw the gold, he was astonished and very much rejoiced, for he was very avaricious. 

He had the miller's daughter taken into another room filled with straw, much bigger than the last, and told her that she, as she valued her life, she must spin it all in one night. The girl did not know what to do, so she began to cry, and the door opened, and the little man appeared and said, "What would you give me if I spin all this straw into gold?" 

"The ring from my finger," answered the girl. So the little man took the ring and began again to send the wheel whirring round, and by the next morning, all the straw was spun into glistening gold. [00:11:00] The king was rejoiced beyond measure at the sight, but as he could never have enough gold, he had the miller's daughter taken into a still larger room full of straw and said, "This too must be spun in one night, and if you accomplish it, you shall be my wife." 

For he thought, "Although she is but a miller's daughter, I'm not likely to find anyone richer in the whole world." As soon as the girl was left alone, the little man appeared for the third time and said, "What will you give me if I spin the straw for you this time?" "I have nothing left to give," answered the girl. 

"Then you must promise me the first child you have after you are queen," said the little man. "But who knows whether that will happen?" thought the girl. But as she did not know what else to do in her necessity, she promised the little man what he desired, upon which he began to spin until all the straw was gold. 

And when in the morning [00:12:00] the king came and found all done according to his wish, he caused the wedding to be held at once, and the miller's pretty daughter became a queen. In a year's time, she brought a fine child into the world, and thought no more of the little man. But one day, he came suddenly into her room and said, "Now give me what you promised me." 

The queen was terrified greatly, and offered the little man all the riches of the kingdom if he would only leave the child. But the little man said, "No, I would rather have something living than all the treasures of the world." Then the queen began to lament and to weep so that the little man had pity on her. 

"I will give you three days," said he, "and if at the end of that time you cannot tell my name, you must give up the child to me." Then the queen spent the whole night thinking over all the names that she had [00:13:00] ever heard, and sent a messenger through the land to ask far and wide for all the names that could be found. 

And when the little man came the next day, beginning with Casper, Melchior, Balthazar, she repeated all she knew, and went through the whole list, but after each the little man said, "That is not my name." The second day the queen sent to inquire of all the neighbors what the servants were called, and told the little man all the most unusual and singular names, saying, "Perhaps you are called Roast Ribs or Sheepshanks or Spittleshanks." 

But he answered nothing but, "That is not my name." The third day the messenger came back again and said, "I have not been able to find one single new name. But as I passed through the woods, I came to a high hill, and near it was a little house. And before the house burned a fire, and round the fire danced a comical little man, and [00:14:00] he hopped on one leg and cried, 'Today do I bake, tomorrow I brew, the day after that the queen's child comes in.' 

And oh, I'm glad that nobody knew that the name I am called is Rumpelstiltskin." You cannot think how pleased the queen was to hear that name. And soon afterwards, when the little man walked in and said, "Now, Mrs. Queen, what is my name?" She said at first, "Are you called Jack?" "No," answered he. "Are you called Harry?" 

she asked again. "No," answered he. And then she said, "Then perhaps your name is Rumpelstiltskin?" "The devil told you that. The devil told you that," cried the little man, and in his anger he stamped with his right foot so hard that it went into the ground above his knee. Then he seized his left foot with both hands in such a fury that he split in two, and there was the end of him.[00:15:00]  

JR: Okay, so there it is. That's the story. Yeah, we start off with a miller and his daughter. And so before we really get into the story, we talked about this in other podcasts, what is the significance specifically of a miller? Yeah. And what's the significance of, let's also say, a beautiful daughter? Yeah, the miller automatically brings to mind another fairy tale, which is The Nix of the Mill Pond, and it starts with a miller. 

Yeah. And the miller, a miller is someone who... Uh, okay, so this is really interesting. Have you ever thought about how many last names today, common- ... actually refer to a job- Sure ... 500 years ago? Yeah. So a name like Fisher Right ... right? Right. A name like a Miller. Miller is a common last name. Right. Yeah. What was a miller? 

Yeah. And I'm, I'm trying to think off the top of my head. Smith. Yeah, a smith- Yeah ... is someone who works with metal, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's funny because there's so many of them. Workmen, that's not very creative. Right. Okay, so your family worked. Got it. Right. Right? But it is interesting, this [00:16:00] idea of we're talking about a name. 

David: Mm-hmm. You know, what's in a name? So I don't know, I just thought I'd throw that out there. It's also neat how what you do attaches itself generationally to- Yeah ... a- and is handed down. Yeah. And, uh, obviously if your name is Miller today, uh, that may or may not mean that your great-great-great-grandfather was a miller, or that certain your, your... 

JR: No, I don't know any Millers today, you know- Yeah ... as a job, as a, as a vocation. But in any case, it is neat how your vocation attaches yourself to the family, and how it so deeply embeds itself into your identity and your family identity, and how that's passed down, because this is a story about generational- Yeah 

blessings and curses- Yeah ... and in this case it's a bit of a curse, and so we start off with the concept of a miller. Yeah. So a miller, and again, I reference this idea of the nix of the mill pond, which we did a podcast about, so you can listen to the audio version of that if you want. But a miller is someone who grinds grain, right? 

David: But actually they end up harnessing [00:17:00] the power of a stream or water- Right ... that actually turns the grinder. Right. Right? Am I getting that right? Yeah. Yeah, so and so you were saying when we did that podcast that a miller almost had a reputation as someone as being a little lazy, because instead of doing the work themselves, they let the water- Right 

do the work for them. Yeah. And I don't know that this was sort of in the context of older generations that they actually looked at millers this way, but in the fairy tales the miller sort of represents somebody who doesn't do the work themselves. They allow the water to do the work, and they just sort of sit back and watch the money roll in, so to speak, right? 

Yeah, yeah. You know, I realize that's not the way it worked- ... and, and we're simplifying the idea. But yeah, a miller inherently has this idea of somebody who wants somebody else or something else to do the work for them in the fairy tale context. Yeah, because the miller in a fairy tale... [00:18:00] Okay, here's a way to say it then, is the miller is susceptible to the bad bargain. 

Right? Right. Which kind of gets into the nature of who they are- Yeah ... to begin with. Yes. It's like I'm doing this work, but if I could just find a get rich quick scheme, I'm all for it. Yeah. And you're gonna see this in this fairy tale too. Yes, it kind of encapsulates that idea. Yeah. Okay? As opposed to, I mean, this is an agrarian society that we're talking about, so people plant seeds, they gotta tend the crops. 

JR: Yeah. They've gotta go harvest at the right time. I mean, it's a lot of work. It's, you know, it's manual labor. Mm-hmm. Whereas the miller sort of encompasses this idea of I'm trying to figure out a way around having to do that work. Yeah. And so I harness nature to do the work for me, which is a bit of a bargain- Yeah 

in and of itself. Okay. And the second thing you mentioned, I think, was the beautiful daughter, right? Right. So a lot of fairy tales, I don't know if there's a handsome prince. There are some, but the beautiful daughter is a common theme, and look, it's not just talking [00:19:00] about her external beauty. Right. The beautiful daughter is a code for this is a virtuous person and a good person. 

Right. Ideal womanhood. That, yeah, yeah. Uh, or, or, yeah The goal is ideal womanhood and, yeah, a virtuous person. And yes, they're physically beautiful, but mainly it's sort of an internal thing. They're beautiful on the inside and outside. They embody all the virtues. Yeah. So when you read that the princess is beautiful or the daughter was the most beautiful woman in the kingdom, things like that, it's really code for this is a genuinely good person. 

Right. In fact, I think there's a couple fairytales where it actually says, "This is a beautiful princess, but she was not good." It almost tells you- Yeah ... so you don't get the code screwed up, right? Right. Yeah. It almost tells you that this is a beautiful woman, but by the way, she's not a very good person. 

Yeah. It'll tell you that. She has an evil heart- Yeah ... or something like that. Yeah. And they kinda spell it out for you. Yeah. Okay. So we start off with this miller, and the first couple lines of the story give us a lot of background. So what [00:20:00] do they say here? Yeah. And we talked about earlier how a lot of times the first sentence or two in a fairytale, there's a whole backstory there- Yeah, right 

David: that it's telling you, so don't skip over it. In this case, it says, "There was once a miller who was poor, but he had one beautiful daughter. And it happened one day that he came to speak with the king to give himself consequence. And he told him that he had a daughter who could spin gold out of straw." 

JR: Okay. Now, before we get to that, there's a backstory here about this miller who was poor. Mm-hmm. What's interesting, one of the first things you recognize is there was no mother in the picture. Yeah. Right? It was just a miller, but he had a beautiful daughter. Right. Yeah. So he has this ideal opportunity for the next generation, right? 

David: Yeah. Okay. So he doesn't have a lot of money. He's poor, but he does have this beautiful daughter. And so as a consequence of this, he kind of runs into the king, which is kinda interesting. And it says... What was the word again that it says [00:21:00] he has something about consequence? To give himself consequence. To give himself consequence. 

JR: So this, that's another way of saying to build himself up to the king. Yeah. Now, what do you do if you're a poor miller and you come into, uh, you come into a conversation with a king- Yeah ... with the highest, right? The lowest is, is now- Yeah ... coming into consequence with the highest, and what do you tell that person? 

And it's like you're trying to build yourself up, but you don't really have... You can't talk about how much money you make- ... or how successful my business is or how I'm the man, right? He knows he doesn't have any of that, but he does have his daughter, and so to give himself consequence, he trumps up the attributes of his daughter. 

David: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Okay. So you already see this. He's poor. He comes in contact with the king. He sees an opportunity to kind of- Build himself up. Like if, I don't know, if you ran into a famous person- Right ... your first tendency might be to say, "All right, how can I build myself up," right? "How can I make myself look really good- Yeah 

in front of this [00:22:00] person?" Right. And to your point, the thing he had going for him was a beautiful daughter. Now keep in mind, it's not just her beauty, it's the fact that she seems to be a genuinely kind-hearted- Right ... good-hearted person. Yeah. And so this is literally him saying, "The best thing I have going for myself is my daughter." 

JR: Yeah. But it's, which is interesting 'cause he doesn't point to anything in himself. He has to go outside of himself. Yeah. It's the, it's the kid saying, "My dad can beat up your dad." And it's like, well, they don't have anything of value to present themselves, and so they have to go one step further and say, "Well, I can't do anything to you, but I bet my dad can beat up your dad." 

And that's sort of what's going in reverse. It's like, "I don't have anything to offer, but I do have this virtuous- Yeah ... beautiful daughter." And, and then he tells this kind of ridiculous tale about she can take straw and spin it into gold. Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute. Yeah, why in the world would you... 

First of all why would you just make up something? Although, again, when you come into [00:23:00] the- proximity of greatness, there's a tendency to kind of get flummoxed and flabbergasted and say, uh, y- you know, "I've got this wonderful daughter that can spin straw into gold," you know? It's like you can almost see the nervousness of it. 

David: All right, so we talked about this earlier. We went to a coffee shop and we talked about some of this, but we talked about this earlier, but okay, so everyone knows the parent. Do you know how many parents like to say- ... "By the way, the school tested my kid and they're a genius"? Right. Right. Yeah, and then the response is, "Well, wait a second, I thought you said that they're failing the third grade." 

Yeah, and then the explanation is, "Well, my kid's just bored. My kid is so smart that they're bored. That's why they're failing." Yeah, they actually found out that he's actually bored with the work that they're giving him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So it just, it just- And so it's kinda- ... kind of funny. And you do the math and you're like, "All right, so my school is filled with 50% geniuses because that's what the parents have told me," right? 

JR: Right. No offense if your kid actually did this. I'm sure your [00:24:00] kid's a brilliant genius. Yeah. Yeah, you're the one outlier. Yeah. We can be snarky if you haven't picked that up. Anyway, so what is the phenomena where the parent feels the need to say, "My kid is a genius," right? Yeah. It's something like, I don't know. 

Again, I think it's probably a little bit of personal low self-esteem that I have to project it on the next generation. Like, and, and I, I realize this is not every case, and I'm, again, I'm probably being a little bit snarky. Some of it... So, so let's just acknowledge that some of it is just every parent is proud of their child. 

David: Yeah, I mean- And there's nothing wrong with that ... I mean, you know, you have a beautiful kid, and that's great, and yes, y- you know, it's the classic open your wallet and show a million pictures of your kid because- Yeah ... y- yeah, so I mean, I get, I get that. But also there's a little bit of maybe I didn't measure up to what I expected of myself, but perhaps the next generation will achieve what I didn't. 

Yeah. How much of it has to do with living [00:25:00] vicariously through the potential of your child? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you see this more in, in maybe athletes. You see the guy that didn't quite, you know, he made it to college, but then he got injured, and so now he's gonna project all of his shortcomings onto his kid, and his gonna, his kid's gonna go in the NBA or the NFL, right? 

JR: Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, 'cause he didn't quite make it. Yeah. Yeah, so it's the... It might be the same thing. You know, I, gosh, I didn't go to college, you know, but I made, I made a living for myself, but daggum it, my kid is a super genius- Oh, yeah ... and- They're going to Harvard ... they're gonna get a doctorate. 

Right. Yeah. Right? Right. Okay. And so how much of that is kind of like, well, you're projecting- kind of your own maybe regrets- Yeah ... onto your kids. Right. And a little bit that's unfair, but a little bit that's understandable too. Yeah. So but that's, that comes into play then, I think, with this ridiculous thing that my beautiful daughter can spin gold out of straw. 

Right. Uh, now what's the meaning of the gold and the straw? Because first [00:26:00] of all, if you're gonna spin something, it wouldn't be straw. I've never seen anyone take straw and spin something. And, and- Yeah ... maybe I'm missing that, but what does that mean? Well, it'd be impressive enough to say my daughter can take cotton and spin it into gold. 

It's like, wow, okay, great. Or my daughter can take straw and weave a shirt. Right. Yeah, either way. It would probably be the most uncomfortable shirt you've ever worn. It'd be a little bit itchy. But yeah. Okay, so let's start with the spinning, and we talked about this in other fairy tales. What is it about the spinning wheel? 

And you see it over and over and over. We saw it in Sleeping Beauty. We see it in the Nix of the Milk. We see it- Over and over again. Right ... and there's a reason, yeah. Right. And spinning represents what? So spinning represents basically the, you might say, the ideal role or the expected role of the woman. 

Right. Like, a woman who can s- okay, so in medieval times, a woman who can spin, that's a woman you can hang onto, right? Right. Sh- yeah. And it means much more than that, and don't be offended by [00:27:00] this. If you're offended, just probably don't bother watching our fairy tales- ... 'cause someone who knows how to spin knows how to manage the household, right? 

David: Yes. And we talked about how there's some of these traditional roles where the man, his role is outside of the house, maybe hunting or working the fields, and the woman will typically say, "My realm is the house," right? Right. "That's where the kids are." Right. "I manage the house." Yep. "I can spin, so I'm bringing in extra income." 

JR: Yeah. I- I'm literally putting clothes on our children- I'm putting clothes on the kid ... and putting clothes on our back. Right. Yeah. I, I'll have food ready. Yeah. Feed my children, feed my husband. Right. And so there's actually a lot of dignity in this idea of a woman who could spin well. Yeah, yeah. Someone who owned a spinning wheel, she knew what she was doing, right? 

Right. Well, okay- So it's not just a, a, it's not just putting something down like, "Oh, that's a woman's work." That's not what it is at all. Well, no more than the hunter- You know, the hunter is the masculine. I can go out into the [00:28:00] woods and I can actually feed my family. I can bring back meat and put it on the table, right? 

Mm-hmm. And again, that's not demeaning to say, "Well, that's all a husband's good for." Well, no, it's saying this is the function of, of a house, and I can go out into the wilderness and bring back food and feed our family, and you can stay and actually take these, what, these disparate threads and weave together a thread that actually makes clothes, that actually- Yeah 

provide, yeah, provides warmth, all those things. And so it's a metaphor for a functional feminine productivity in life and in the culture, right? Yeah. And so that's what, that's what the spinning wheel kind of embodies. And you see that Well, not only the boast that my daughter can spin gold, but the very fact that my daughter is an adept spinner, and the king goes, "Oh, okay, I'm, I'm interested," right? 

Right. I mean, that speaks to the value of that. Right. So it just means she's playing her role well. Spinning, usually it kind of [00:29:00] points to the idea that this is a mature woman who has her stuff together- Yeah ... and would make a great wife and a great mother- Right ... in fairy tales. Yeah. And so not only is she functional with the activity of the house, she can take this worthless material of straw- Yeah 

she can just take regular grass out in the yard, and she can obviously turn it into something valuable. So basically, he's boasting and saying, "My daughter can take nothing and turn it into something extremely valuable." It, it's the lowest, and she can raise it to the highest. Yeah. Right? Right. It's almost like she can take dirt and make diamonds out of it or something 

Yeah, something like that, yeah. It would be something like that, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And so, okay, so yeah, so the king is obviously interested in this, and so he's like- Yeah ... "Man, bring her to me, man. I gotta see this gal that can take straw and spin it into gold." Yeah. So it plays into his, what, his greed or something like that. 

We'll get into that in a second. So yeah, what's our next step? Well, the next step in, like you said, the [00:30:00] king says, uh, "Hey, I've gotta see this. Bring her into my service." And it's interesting be- because the king says, "Now set to work." He puts her in a room full of straw. Mm-hmm. And he says, "Now set to work, and if by the early morning you have not spun the straw into gold, you will die." 

David: That's a bit harsh. Yeah. The stakes have just gotten raised here, right? Yeah. So we're getting a little bit of insight into the king, and in fact, later it says he was very avarice. He's very greedy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay, so it... We've talked about this before. What does the king represent? It's not just a king. 

JR: It's not the president or something like that, right? Yeah, the king, the king represents the kingdom. The king represents the culture. Yeah. So... And it may explain why this poor miller felt the need to boast, because he's lives in this culture that values wealth, right? Yes. Yeah. It's another way to see that. 

Right. The king casts the vision for his culture. Yeah. And so it's another way of saying this is the highest ideal in this culture, in this kingdom, is [00:31:00] turning nothing, something worthless, into gold. And so- Yeah ... right. So the culture is gonna call his bluff and put him to the test. Yeah. Right? So if you're gonna talk this big about how great your kid is, if you're gonna tell me about your kid can dunk a basketball in the fourth grade- Yeah 

okay, I've got a basketball. Bring him over. I wanna see this. Yeah, that's a good point. Before we move on, his boasting actually puts his daughter in a very bad position. Right. We talked about the example of- The parent who has told their child their whole life that they're the most wonderful singer that they've ever heard. 

David: So the kid goes on American Idol- Yeah ... and the judges are like, "You're terrible. Who told you you could sing?" Yeah. And- "Well, my mom said I'm the best there is," right? Right. And so that's kind of a, a modern example of this- Yeah ... idea of, like, the parents boasting, looking to, what, give themself consequence- Yeah 

has put the child in an awkward position. Right. A very- And the result is you're stuck [00:32:00] on TikTok for all eternity as a joke. Yeah. As a laughing stock, you know? I mean, that's, that's what ends up happening. Yeah. So that, that's important to see. So his boast to the king now has resulted in his daughter going to the king's castle and has been given this impossible task. 

JR: Sure. The king says, "I wanna see you pay this off." And what's the idea of, like, he says, "Do this or you will die"? Boy, that escalated quickly. Yeah, yeah. Again, it's like, well, we're not talking about a king, we're talking about a culture. And there's something about this culture that says either what? Put out or shut up, or what is it? 

No, put up or shut up, you know. Put up and shut... Yeah, not put out. That's a different- Yeah, we're talking about, uh, the, the guy's daughter here, so no. That's a different fairy tale, but- Sorry about that. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, produce or die, you know? Show us what you got or you're of no consequence to this culture, and- Yeah, yeah 

yeah, that's kind of interesting because that feels a little [00:33:00] modern, right? Yeah, so you put yourself out there and make your boast on social media. You can pretty much become the meme of the day, right? Yeah, yeah. You can pretty much be the example of what not to do. Right. You're the fool who- The culture 

built a tower and never counted the cost. Yeah, and the culture will consume you faster than you can imagine. Right. Yeah, yeah, and- That might be a way to say that, yeah ... no, that's actually kind of interesting, 'cause, man, you really see that on not just social media, but, you know, I don't know, reality TV, and man, one misstep and suddenly, man, you are just consumed by all the culture. 

David: Yeah. And so yeah, I think there's something there. Yeah, so the king maybe represents the consuming culture that we already know is improperly oriented- Right ... because it's greedy. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, he makes this boast of his daughter's ability to produce wealth, and the culture's gonna consume her. The culture's gonna eat her up and spit her out. 

JR: Right. Okay. [00:34:00] So now she's locked in this room. Yeah. And of course she realizes, "I don't know how to take straw and spin it into gold," and she starts to cry. Yeah, so it's interesting. Yeah, she starts to cry- Mm-hmm ... and in her distress, uh, I'm trying to get the exact word, came in a little man, now that's interesting, who said, "Good evening, miller's daughter. 

David: Why are you crying?" And she kinda says, like, "I've been given this impossible task." And he said, "What will you give me if I spin it for you?" Yeah. Now, we'll stop there because we're introduced to Rumpelstiltskin. Yeah. Although we were talking about should we talk about Rumpelstiltskin, you don't actually know his name till the very end, so it's a bit of a giveaway. 

But we know- Well, being, being the fact that it's in the title. Yeah, the title. It's on page one. Yeah, that's true. But right, yeah, we don't, we don't know his name through the story, but yeah, here comes Rumpelstiltskin, and you look that name up, uh, and this is kind of interesting because as we get into this idea that this [00:35:00] story is about ideology and bad ideas and the replication of generational bad ideas and how that's passed down generationally, the name Rumpelstiltskin actually is helpful to know, or, you know, the, the- Yeah 

JR: etymology of it. You may have to remind me, but it means something like rattling sticks or a rattling noise. Yeah. And I'm not getting that exactly right, but Well, it seemed like there was a spirit, a rattling spirit. So y- I mean, you kinda have this idea of- Yeah ... the rattling noise in the back of your head- Yeah 

you know, that you can't let go of. And again, we talk about the layers of this, the layers of analysis. One layer of analysis, kind of the surface layer, is that this is kinda talking maybe a little bit about addiction or generational addiction, and when you have that idea, you kinda have that idea of just it's in the back of your head. 

I want that thing. I can't shake this- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... I can't shake this idea. I can't shake this desire. I want to, but it's just [00:36:00] constantly talking in the back of my head. There you go. There's the name of Rumpelstiltskin for you. Yeah, yeah. So it's, uh ... You said onomatopoeia? Yeah. Right. That's where what? 

Like woof of a dog or ... So it's a name, it's a word that actually brings to mind the sound of whatever activity. Right. That's a really inarticulate way, but that's what it- Right ... basically means. So it also ties together that this idea of a little man. Now, that's another idea in fairy tales that you'll see is the little man- Mm-hmm 

David: and y- we're not really sure who he is, but it's some kind of goblin. Yeah. There's a lot of different variations in fairy tales, but the little man is basically It could be the, what? The troll that lives under the bridge- Yeah ... the elf- Yeah ... in different cultures. Right. It, it's not quite human, and it's kind of a trickster spirit maybe. 

Yeah, yeah. And, and a little bit, like, you can look at it as a half man, an incomplete man. That's why it's a little man, yeah. Right, yeah. So here comes this little [00:37:00] man- Yeah ... and he comes in with a bargain. So here's this Faustian idea. Yeah. Is, "Hey, I can solve your problems," which this is so good when you think about what this story represents. 

JR: "I can solve your problems, but what will you give me?" Yeah. Right? There, there's always a trade-off, right? And the easy way out is, man, this guy knows how to do it. This guy can solve my problem. What do you want, right? Yeah. I mean, it's that or I die, you know? Okay, I don't want the culture to consume me, so what do you want? 

And, and of course she offers what? Yeah, so she says, "My necklace." And the little man took the necklace for her, and he spins all the gold. And so the next day the king walks in and goes, "Wow, you did it." You did it. Right. Okay, so here's the fairy tale, the group of three, right? She does this three nights in a row. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you always see this. You see this, it, just in all the fairy tales. And there's something about... Well, how do we describe the group of three? Why is it that there's something in, in [00:38:00] triplicate in most of the fairy tales? Yeah. I... You said it in another episode. It's something like once is a coincidence. 

David: Once is just an occurrence of something. Right, yeah. Twice you can write it off as a coincidence. Yeah. Three is a pattern. Yes, that's right. And so when you see things happening in threes in fairy tales, it's because it's establishing the pattern. Yes. Yeah, there you go. And it's calling you now to pay attention. 

JR: Right. Yeah, this is not just an aspect of the story. This is a pattern that I'm going to lay out for you. Yeah. Okay, so in this pattern, he does it three nights in a row. The first night she offers him a necklace. Yeah. The second night she offers him a ring. And then the third night, of course, this is where things get really crazy. 

David: Yeah. She has nothing else to offer him, so she offers him her child, her firstborn child. Her firstborn. We'll get to that in a second. Yeah. What is the significance of those two or three items, we'll call it? Yeah. The gifts offered in a fairy tale always mean something. Oh, yeah. [00:39:00] Right. Yeah. Even the ridiculous ones. 

But the idea of a necklace, we talked about this. Okay, so I just watched a Netflix show, and it wasn't particularly good, but- And I, I wanna say it was a Portuguese show, as weird as this sounds. But I always find myself- ... watching some kind of foreign- Where do you find these things? I know. I know. Okay. Some of them are really amazing, and then some are... 

Yeah, okay. But anyway, so I think it's called Nero the Assassin, okay? Okay. And Nero not the Caesar, but Nero, this happened to be this, like- Dude's name ... medieval guy who's... It was kind of a fantasy historical epic. Okay. But anyway, part of it is a witch is trying to lure him in, but he doesn't know she's a witch. 

So sh- he's invited to a banquet, and he gets a gift before he goes to this banquet. Mm-hmm. And it's a necklace. Okay. Okay? So he puts on the necklace, and it immediately tightens around him. And he panics, and he tries to take it off, and he can't take it off. Yeah. And it's that point [00:40:00] that he realizes that this is from the witch. 

JR: Okay. Now, I didn't really think about this at the time, but this is what immediately came to mind when the necklace. So what does the necklace represent? It almost represents the collar that I've got you now. Yeah. Right? Yeah. In the same way that that necklace that the witch gave that guy, she's got him now. 

Yeah. Yeah. Right? So her offering him the necklace is sorta like saying, "I'm allowing you to take control of me. I'm now on the leash. I'm now on your leash." Yeah. And it's funny because, again, there are layers to this. I'm gonna say this 100 times, I guess. The layers to this say addiction in the modern understanding of it, that's what it does. 

It grips you. It's something that kind of, it initially- Yeah ... controls you, right? It's got its hooks in, so to speak, and it's got the collar around your neck, and so that's what the necklace is representing. It's... I, there's a lot of weight, there's a lot of baggage along this idea of the necklace. [00:41:00] Yeah. And I don't think it would've been missed on ancient mythic listeners. 

David: And obviously the immediate meaning is that it's something of value, like the ring. Right. But again, in fairy tales, these always mean something more, but she has- Yeah, it's double meaning ... she has maybe two things of value to offer him. Right. And look, the necklace might be maybe, let's even go so far as to say maybe it was her mother's necklace, and her mother's dead now. 

So she's got a family heirloom- Right ... that's valuable, and now she's faced with this Faustian bargain of- Do I trade Yeah ... do I trade my family heirloom, what, to save my own hide almost? Yeah, it sort of- But I don't know what else to do. I've been put in this bind. Yeah. Man, it sort of has that, uh, Jacob and Esau selling the birthright type of- A little bit, yeah 

JR: feel to it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So she, yes, she gives him the necklace. Uh, he obviously spins it into gold. The, the king is pleased. Well, let's jump forward to the ring. So if the necklace [00:42:00] is kind of control- Mm-hmm ... there, there's that kind of emphasis there, what would the ring be? It's also something of value, but that has a dual meaning too. 

David: Yeah, so obviously something of value, but we talked about how the ring... Look, a ring is, again, now that either is a family heirloom- Mm-hmm ... probably, so it's the past, but it also represents a future marriage, right? Right. Because you would wear a ring to get married. Right. So I think somehow in this case, the ring represents both the past and the future. 

JR: Okay. Okay, so I've given you the past. Now I'm giving you something that represents the past, and I'm starting to give you the future. Yeah. Okay. Uh, so maybe the ring is like a family heirloom that I'm... Maybe I'm, I'm giving this a backstory, but we can go with this, right? Yeah. Maybe it's the family heirloom that this would be my wedding ring. 

David: I'm gonna switch hands, right? Yeah. And I've seen this, people do this, is like my mother's ring, and when I get married I'm gonna wear it on my other hand. Right, [00:43:00] okay. Yeah. Well- But anyway, the ring is now my future betrothal, right? I'm willing to bargain that- Right ... to save my life. Yes. Yeah. But even it's like the ring is, is just in general, it doesn't necessarily have to be a wedding ring, it's the symbol of a commitment. 

JR: It's tying yourself- Yeah ... in a different way, in a committed way, a committed relationship, something like that. And so not only the first night she's controlled by the necklace, by the collar, and the next night she has made a commitment to it. And so you kinda see this progression now. Sure. You see this initial control, and then a, a all-out commitment. 

And then, of course, to go onto the child, now she's sacrificing, she's sacrificing her child. Yeah. She's sacrificing her future even in a greater context of I'm not only willing to give myself and my value, I'm willing to give you the value of my next generation. And that actually ties back to what happened with her father, right? 

David: Right. What does her father do? And this [00:44:00] happens in all these bargains in the fairy tale. Yeah. The father says, "I'm willing to bargain my own future- Mm-hmm ... my daughter- Yeah ... for an immediate payoff of maybe I'm in good standing with the king and he's gonna give me something in exchange." Right. Right? So she is doing the exact same thing that her father did. 

Her father- Doing what she taught, yeah ... bargained his child- Mm-hmm ... right? Yeah. And now she's bargaining her child. So we see the- family or the generational curses, you could say- Mm-hmm ... being passed down, right? Yeah. Well, this is where the story becomes obviously about a generational problem. Yeah. And we've talked about this. 

JR: I mean, you can see it in... I mean, it doesn't have to be necessarily addiction. It can be something like ideology. It can be something broader than a mere addiction. But you do, you embody what your parents taught you a lot of times, and you see these cycles of generational, again, we call it curses, but it's this generational cycle- Yeah 

that you see kind of played out, and [00:45:00] it's up to us as an individual to break that cycle. Yeah. We talk about this in the biblical mandate to honor your father and mother, and the simplistic understanding of that is, okay, obey mom and dad, whatever they say, right? But the deeper understanding of that is how do you honor your father and your mother? 

And sometimes honoring your parents is breaking the cycle that they gave you. That's the deeper understanding. Yeah. You know, if everything's... If, if you grew up in a great family and they taught you well, then honoring your father and mother is embodying what they taught you and passing that on to your children. 

So it can be a positive thing, but it can also be the breaking and the naming of the negative thing. And so honoring your parents is actually saying, "I didn't fall into the same trap that you did, and that your parents did, and that your parents' parents did." Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's that whole pride of saying, "I'm the first person in my family to go to college." 

Yeah. What are you saying by that? You know, that [00:46:00] your, your ancestor's a bunch of dummies? No. It's saying that, you know, I'm the first one that put myself together in a way and achieved this thing that was valuable perhaps to the previous generation, but they just never had an opportunity to live it out. 

David: I was gonna say, it's actually a way of saying, my family has built me up to the point where I've been the first one who can achieve this. Yes. Like, I'm actually carrying out a good legacy that my family gave me. Right. Now, the flip side of that is the Bible also talks about the sins of a father will be visited on his children, right? 

Mm-hmm, yeah. Which kind of sounds weird at first. It's like, God's gonna smite your kids- Right ... because you screwed up. Yeah, it almost seems un- unfair. But that's not what it's talking about. It's actually talking about this very thing. Yeah. Generational patterns. You can think of generational curses and blessings. 

JR: Yeah But so when the Bible says, "The sins of the father will be visited on the children," what it's actually getting at is, hey, [00:47:00] whatever you're doing as parents, you have to know that your kids are watching you, and you are establishing habits and patterns that your children will carry on. Yeah, sure. Well, I mean j- wow, just go back to Sleeping Beauty. 

It's like, look at what her parents did to her. They locked her in a tower. Yeah. And then surprise, surprise, she's so naive that she fumbles around with the spinning wheel- Yeah ... and falls to sleep by stabbing herself with the needle, right? It's like... So yeah, it's like you get what you're handed down, and so it's up to us to eventually try to be, I don't know, try to hold on to the good things that your family gave you while embracing new ideas and the time that you're living in and saying, "This is how I'm gonna live out these ideals in my generation." 

David: Yeah. You know? And it's something like that. Yeah, it's something like that. And not to give away the end, but it's also naming the weaknesses that your family passed on. Yeah. [00:48:00] Yeah. No, that's, that's- But we don't have to go there yet. No, that's perfect. Okay, so let's keep going. So- Uh, it's worth saying, though, that this pattern of three, if it's not obvious in the story, that the stakes are higher every time, because the king puts her in a different room with more straw. 

The stakes are raised. Right. Right? Each time- It's, it's a larger room every time ... each time he says, "If you can't do this, I'm going to kill you. You're gonna die," which speaks to the... Gosh, it speaks to who the king is. We talked about this. It's like if you were given this maiden who can spin gold, why would you threaten to kill her if she can't spin more? 

JR: Yeah. It's the goose that laid the golden egg, man. It's like- It's, it's another fairy tale, yeah, right ... you're killing the very thing that's producing value to you- ... out of your own greed. Yeah. Yeah. And so again, the king represents culture in this sense, and so it's saying they're living in a culture that all they want is more, more, more. 

David: Produce more, produce more- Yeah, give me more ... produce more. Give me more. Yeah. Which is that feels [00:49:00] a little modern, again. I don't know what that sounds like, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. And so again, w- uh, we talked about that and said, man, this story is obviously about the father. We see how the daughter plays in, we see how Rumpelstiltskin plays in. 

JR: What's the deal with the jerk king? But until we, uh, we kind of put our finger on the idea the king represents the culture that they live in- Yeah, exactly ... now that kinda makes sense- Yeah ... uh, for him as a character. Yeah. All right, so the third night, Rumpelstiltskin produces all the gold, and she has promised to give him her future child, which we talked about how it's nothing she has to part with right away. 

Yeah. In fact, there's a good line in there. Um, I don't know. You're gonna have to read it. But where she sort of- Okay, so yeah, the, what she says is she actually says to him, "I have nothing left." And he said, "Then you must promise me the first child that you have after you are queen." So that's interesting, too. 

David: After you're a queen. I didn't pick that up the first time, but he's already promising her- Yeah. [00:50:00] You know, does the story... I don't think it acknowledges, I don't think the king says, "If you can spin this room full of gold, then you'll become queen." I don't... Uh, maybe it does. That slipped by me if it did say that. 

Yeah, I just noticed this idea that he said, "Give me your child when you are the queen And I think that maybe w- we're gonna have to go back and look at that. But she says- But who knows whether that will happen, so she agrees to it. Yeah. So she kinda just, it has that feel of just throwing up your hands of like, what else am I to do? 

Yeah. I don't know of any other path. We talked about this in The Nix of the Mill Pond, that line that the miller says, "But what else am I to do?" But what else can I do? But what else can I do? It's like, well, you can kinda come up with an alternative plan. Yeah . You can come up with plan B. You know. Now, in this case she's kinda stuck. 

JR: It's either produce gold or get her head cut off or whatever. Yeah. And let's, let's acknowledge that she was a beautiful girl- Mm-hmm ... which means [00:51:00] in her heart she's a good person. Right. And we will see that play out at the end. But let's acknowledge that she's been put in a very difficult position. Yeah. 

David: And look, let's be honest, man, good people are put in very difficult positions that will ask you to compromise your integrity. Yeah. And look, it's not as straightforward and say, "Well, just do the right thing, man." Right. It's not, yes, it's not as black and white as we'd like to make it out. Yeah, yeah. Right. 

JR: Okay. Yeah. So she says, "Who knows will that, that'll hap-" So she's bargaining the future, in other words- Right ... which is uncertain- Yeah ... in her eyes. And maybe there's a little bit of an indication that, well, if I'm queen, you know what I mean? Maybe. Yeah. Maybe it's the temptation. Maybe it's like a trade-off. 

Yeah. It's the temptation of the trade-off of saying- Yeah ... you know, he did say, "If I'm queen," and look, I don't wanna give up my firstborn, but at the same time I'm queen now in this scenario? Yeah . Oh, okay. You know, this, this, I can deal with this, right? Yeah. And so she responds with one of my favorite Simpsons lines, [00:52:00] which that's a problem for future Homer. 

Right. I love that line. Right . Yeah, that is absolutely great. Yeah. And so we're constantly trading off, we're constantly bargaining with our future selves, and that's the guy- It's a ongoing temptation, yeah. Yeah. And that's the simplistic answer. The guy who gets hammered and wakes up with the headache and it's like, why would you do that to yourself again? 

It's- We know how this is gonna end. But it's like in the moment, I want the feel-good, I want the initial payoff, and look, the hangover's a problem for future me. It's the temptation of, well, I don't have any money, but I could put it on my credit card. Which is that rattling, right? Oh, yeah. It's the, it's the name, Rumpelstiltskin. 

David: No, that's great. It's the rattling in the back of your head- Yeah, yeah ... that says- Just put it on the credit card, man, and figure it out later. Yeah. That's exactly what this is. Okay, so this is cool because there was a test a long time ago, the marshmallow test. Have you heard this? The [00:53:00] Oreo test- Yeah, yeah 

JR: whatever. Yeah. Okay, so they- We've talked about it ... they basically said that there was this test about kids, and they take these little kids, and they put a marshmallow in front of them, and they say, "You can eat this marshmallow whenever you want. But if you wait until I come back, I'll give you two marshmallows-" Yeah 

or two Oreos or whatever, right? And so they kinda did this test, and it's so funny. You can YouTube it, you know, see how these kids react, and they're smelling it, and they're touching it, and then they put it back down. But in any case, they would see how long the kids waited before they ate the marshmallow, and some of them waited several minutes until the person came back in and gave them a second one, right? 

Well, the cool part of this story is that they followed up on these kids 20, 30 years later Mm-hmm And what they found out is that the kids who were the quickest to just take the marshmallow and eat it, there was a high correlation of they were in jail, they were bankrupt, they were, uh, you know, all these kind of self-destructive behaviors. 

And what they kind of learned from this is that a [00:54:00] child that doesn't know how to forestall immediate gratification and- De- yeah ... wait for the payoff at a later date Delayed gratification Yeah, delayed gratification, man Yeah ... you end up being a person with kind of these self-destructive tendencies. And I mean, think about it, man. 

How does a guy end up bankrupt? Well, sometimes life throws some really hairy stuff at you, and, you know, look, like you acknowledged earlier, it's like sometimes we're in sort of impossible situations, but in general, the person that ends up bankrupt and things like that probably didn't know how to delay gratification, and they were probably a little bit too much of a spendthrift in the immediate as opposed to saving for the future, and they end up in this difficult situation. 

And it's the same thing with- Yeah ... alcoholics, drug addicts, people who end up in prison. It's just, it's sort of a pattern. Yeah. The inability to delay gratification is the same problem as you become susceptible to bargaining the future. Right. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And- I will sell my future [00:55:00] self for the gratification right now. 

Yeah. It's the exact opposite of what you need to do to be successful in life. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So the king comes in after the third night, and there's this whole room full of gold, okay? And it said, "He caused the wedding to be held at once." "And the miller's pretty daughter became queen." So it's interesting that it actually says, "The miller's pretty daughter became queen." 

David: So actually she's immediately queen. Right. It's like right away, right? Yeah. And so inevitably, in a year's time, she brought a child into the world, right? And so now she has this child, and lo and behold, she forgot about the little man. Of course she forgot about the bargain. Now, it's also bears mentioning that this idea of the little man could be a mirror of her father. 

JR: Oh, sure. Right? Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I th- I think there's something to that. I don't know. There's something like the half man that was handed down to her, you know? It... Yeah, there is some kind of- Yeah ... echo of her father. You know, the, I don't know, the incompleteness of her [00:56:00] father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something to that. 

David: Yeah, it could be a mirror of that. But so the little man shows up and he said, "I'm here to claim what you promised me." Sure. "I'm gonna give you my child." Of course, she says she's terrified. She says there's no way. And he says, "No, I would rather have something living than all the treasures in the world." Now, that's interesting idea. 

What do you think he values in saying, "I would rather have something living"? Yeah, we kinda wrestled with this because it's, it's like, man, why would... It's just, again, if there's something odd that's said, it's like that is a big red X, dig here. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, we kinda thought about, well, there's something about destructive tendencies that is not satisfied with material things. 

JR: It's not satisfied with its own success. It's not satisfied with money, you know? Yeah. And again, to kind of view the layer of addiction, it's like you get down the road and you'll talk to these people that are, I don't know, they're [00:57:00] deeply in debt or they're deeply addicted to something, and they're like, "Man, I would give everything in the world to have never taken that first hit," that first whatever, right? 

Yeah. And they'd sell it all to go back. But by this time, the monster has grown. It's got control over you. You've made a commitment to it. You've given up your own family, your own future f- to this monster. And so the monster, the very nature of the monster says, "I'm not interested in what you can give me now. 

All I want is another life." Yeah. And it's sort of like this demonic element of consuming that says, "I don't wanna consume things. I live off of, I don't know, it's like, it's like I suck the life," g- the, the vampire idea. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sucking the life out of something, and I have to have blood to do it to, to continue to live, to continue to grow. 

And so it sorta has- Yeah ... that element to it. Yeah, and again, it continues the pattern of the father bargained the next generation. She was willing to bargain the next generation, and that's what, if you wanna call it, you know, psychologically maybe an addiction or just this [00:58:00] idea of malevolence, right? Yeah. 

David: Once you start kind of bargaining with the future, it- Yeah, I think you're right. It's like, no, I want the next generation. Right. I want your life and I want your next generation's life too. Yeah. I want something living. Yeah. And it's- Right? Yeah, it's sorta like creating your own monster. Yeah. You say that all the time. 

JR: Yeah. And right to that point is, is just that it wants something, I don't know. Yeah, it wants, it finally wants your future. It wants everything. Yeah. It's not happy with staying where it is. It has to grow. Well, it has to either be broken or grow. Yeah. Okay. But she, she cries. We haven't mentioned the significance of this, and maybe there's not much to it, but every time she cries, I don't know if there's something there, but she cries, which maybe shows, like, she's truly in this hopeless situation. 

Yeah. Maybe that's what that represents. But it did notice that she starts to weep again, and the little man had pity on her. And then he says, "I will give you three days, and if at the end of that [00:59:00] time you cannot tell me my name, you must give the child to me." Okay. Okay, so that's the bargain. Right. That's the next bargain, right? 

Yeah. And there's the pattern of three again, right? Yeah. I'll give you three days. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Right. And so over these three days, it's kind of interesting. She sends messengers out into the village and to kinda get these common names. Yeah, common names, which is ... Well, it's Casper, Melchior, and Balthazar. 

Not that common. Not anymore. But hey, you know how names are. Yeah. So today it would be Hannah and Isaac and- Yeah ... whatever, you know. I don't know. That's right. I don't know what the common names are. But, uh, yeah, so names change. But anyway, it's kinda interesting that she sends a messenger out to find the common names. 

Like, "Let me just get the most common names and throw that at this- Yeah ... at this goblin that has me by the throat." Yeah. Right? And so obviously it's not the common names. She tries that. Nope, it's none of those. And then it [01:00:00] specifically says- Then day two, yeah ... day two, it comes in. Here, here we go. Here's our triplicate. 

Day two it says she asked the servants. You know, so she's going outside her- Yeah ... r- r- her realm, I guess l- so to speak, her class. She's going to the servants. She's coming up with these kinda oddball names, and she's like, "Okay, this is a long shot, but I'll, we'll try these." Roast ribs. Okay. Sheep shanks. And Spindleshanks. 

David: Now it says she said the most unusual and singular names, which means that someone named their kid Roast Ribs. I don't know this. I guess that's what that means. Yeah. Somebody named their kids Sheep- I'm just- ... Spindleshanks, right? I'm just saying, this is what the story says, right? Okay, yeah. Let's not take things literally here. 

Spindleshanks. I guess the kid who had really skinny legs, right? Yeah. Yeah, when he was born that, you know- I think the servants actually brought back nicknames and not true names. Let's just go with that. Yeah, yeah. Well, some kid I heard at the [01:01:00] schoolyard is called- ... Spindleshanks, right? Yeah, or maybe they're just kinda gassing her. 

JR: You know, thinking, "We'll just tell her this," you know? Get her off my back. No. Okay, so I think it's kinda interesting 'cause I think there's something there. Again, when we're talking about bad ideas, when we're talking about generational malevolence, when we're talking about addiction, it's like- You're gonna throw the most common thing at it. 

You know what I mean? It's like- Yeah, yeah. Okay ... I'm gonna a doctor and see if, see if I can get some medicine for this, if there's a pill. Yeah. Y- you know. And then you're gonna be creative. You're gonna go to social media and you're gonna say- ... "What can I find? You know, ginger root. Yeah, they say that cures everything," or whatever, right? 

You know, so you're willing to kinda go out on a limb and say, "Okay, this is a long shot. Spindle shanks is a long shot." "But I'm willing to give it a try." And it, it's funny because, I mean, you see this when people are desperate to lose weight or something like that. You know, you'll kind of fall for any dumb gimmick that you see, and that's [01:02:00] why there's constant things about, "Do this to quit smoking. 

Do this to lose weight. Do this to make a quick buck." You know, fast money, you know? It's, it's funny because we saw commercials about get rich quick. Yeah. And then you just see that transfer over to social media, and you come across 'em, and you're like, "Man, people are still falling for this?" Yeah. People are still falling for the... 

What is it? The Saudi prince that has a million dollars- Yeah ... but he needs you to send him 10,000 so he can- ... get the check released, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. You're like, "Who falls for this stuff?" But it is. It kind of embodies this idea of, "Okay, I'm gonna try with everything I know, the common things, and then I'm gonna try with this kinda wild ideas." 

And again, you see this progression of let's try to fix this problem. And it's important to note that what's happening here is she is trying to name what the issue is. That's what's really happening here, right? Yeah. I'm trying to name it, and I like this idea. You brought it up. This, it progresses from the common down to the right, the weird, right? 

David: I'm gonna look [01:03:00] everywhere except within myself. Yeah. Is... And that's what's gonna happen here, right? Yeah. So I'm gonna look at the common things. I'm gonna post something on Reddit and say, "How do I do this?" And then I'm gonna go to the bizarre homemade remedies, right? Or the- Yeah ... whatever. I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to things that tickle my ear and tell me what I wanna hear. 

But it's not really the name of the issue, right? Right. You haven't really put your finger on the problem. Okay, so this is a little bit different than having a literal problem that you're trying to fix. Sometimes it is you have a pattern behavior that you're refusing to name. Yep. Yeah. And so think about the guy who's been married and divorced five times or the guy who's been through six, seven jobs. 

JR: You know, they try to name it at first. They try to say things like, "Oh man, you know, my boss was a jerk. He had it out for me." Yeah, yeah. It's like, "Man, the dumbest thing. You know, they fired me just because I was five minutes late." And you're like, "I'm guessing [01:04:00] that's not the whole story, right?" You know? The... 

People don't fire you for being five minutes late. Yeah. My guess is this has happened 20 times, and they finally had enough, you know? And so it's funny. It's like- You start off by naming the common things. "Oh, you know, he had it out for me. He- Yeah ... they don't like me." And you're like, okay, well, that might happen once, but when that happens five or six times, hmm, may be time to look in the mirror, right? 

You know? And then of course, you know, you get more elaborate. Like, okay, why did, why did your wife leave you this time, you know? Yeah. You know, and it's like, "Oh, man, uh, she's crazy and, uh, they've got this whole family thing going on, and I think she's into mysticism," and, you know, it's... So you, then you start really reaching. 

It's like you're more creative with your explanations of why you're in this fix yet again. Yeah. All as a matter of not looking within yourself or, what we're gonna find out, not looking into the heart of the matter. Yeah. Right? Hey, real quick before we keep going, if you're enjoying this conversation, this actually comes from [01:05:00] our podcast, Navigating an Ancient Faith. 

On the podcast, we cover other fairy tales, parables from the Bible, and other ancient stories. We look at the symbolism, the history, and what they still might be trying to teach us today. So if you like this kind of discussion, you can find Navigating an Ancient Faith on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 

Okay, let's jump back in. Yeah, and one thing I gotta say is that in every fairy tale almost, there's this really simple phrase that captures a key moment of a fairy tale, and you and I have talked about some of these before. Yeah, that nails it, puts a nail on the head, right. Yeah, yeah. It's like this is it right here. 

David: This is the essence of it. And for me, this is when Rumpelstiltskin, after every time she goes through all these names, he says, "That's not my name." And you may think, "Well, well that's really simple." Right. That's a natural response. But there's something about the essence of that that he's saying, "Nope, you haven't named it yet." 

JR: Yes. You don't know. So you gave the example of the guy who's like, "Man, I got [01:06:00] fired again. My boss had it out for me." And that's where I wanna interject and just say, "No, no, no. That's not the name." Nope. You're off base. Yep, you haven't named it yet, right? Yeah. You're still trying to push it, put it out there somewhere, and it's really, it's in the mirror, man. 

Yeah. You've gotta be honest with yourself- Yeah ... and name it. Yeah, own it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I think that's pretty good. Yeah, so I, I love that phrase, "That's not my name," and I think there's a couple places where he says, "Nope, that's not my name. You haven't got it yet." You haven't understood what's going on here. 

Yeah, yeah. No, I like that, I like that interpretation of it because that really is it, man. You gotta- Yeah ... you've gotta be direct. And it's funny that Rumpelstiltskin, which we're gonna about to find out- Yeah ... is sort of like the embodiment of, I don't wanna say evil, but it's like bad ideas, I don't know, self-defeating ideas- Yeah 

things like that. But any, any case, we'll get to that in a second. But it's like even h- even he recognizes, it's like, "Nope, you're not there yet." You haven't got it yet. And the, the interesting thing is what are the three names, the [01:07:00] oddball names? It was something about... Roast ribs- Right ... sheepshanks, or spindle shanks. 

David: I, I th- okay, th- I could be reaching, but there's something about especially spindle shanks. It's like she's getting close. She's... Well, we s- talked about onomatopoeia, right? It's like she's almost getting close to that i- idea of a name that sounds kind of ridiculous that might capture what- Right ... what's going on. 

JR: Yeah. It's a- It's a feeble attempt, but yeah, you might be right. It's an attempt. No, you're right. It's kind of close. I mean, those could be the name of the story, you know, and- Yeah ... Spindleshanks could be the name of the whole s- story, and that could be... But it's like, yeah, it's like she's close, but she hasn't quite named it. 

Yeah. And it's almost like, it's almost like Rumpelstiltskin is almost nervous. It's like, "Uh, nope, nope, that's not it." You know, "Move on." Yeah. "Next question, please." Yeah, that's right. I don't know. I, I could be reaching. But again, yeah, you haven't quite named it. Nope, wrong. Yeah. Move on. Now let's [01:08:00] take a look in the mirror. 

Yeah. Okay, so then we get to the final act. Yeah, the third day then the servants go out, and one of the servants happens to be going through the woods, and he comes to a hill, and he sees a little house, and he sees this crazy little man dancing around. Sits on one leg, dancing around a fire, and this is what he said, "Today do I bake, tomorrow I brew, the day after that the queen's child comes in. 

David: And oh, I am glad that nobody knew that my name that I am called is Rumpelstiltskin." And so the servant overhears this, right? And he goes back to the queen and he says, "I think I know the name." Right. It's Rumpelstiltskin, right? So then Rumpelstiltskin comes to the queen the next day. Mm-hmm. It's the third day. 

JR: Yep. And he says, "All right, this is it. What's my name?" And it's funny because she says, "Are you called Jack?" And then, "Are you called Harry?" So two of the most plain names you could come up with, right? Yeah. So we might come back to this, but this is a [01:09:00] little bit of the cleverness of the queen- Yes ... and her true heart showing, right? 

David: We talked about that idea of viewing... She's a little bit toying with him because she knows the answer now. Right. Yeah. No, I think that's interesting- Yeah ... because there's a aspect of this, and we don't have to get into it right now, but it's... An aspect of this is something like female ingenuity. Where as a guy- Yeah 

JR: it's just gonna come straight at you. You know? I'm gonna pound that guy when- Right, right ... he shows up. Sheer strength. Yeah, I'm gonna beat the crap out of... Like sheer strength. But there's something about a female ingenuity that's a little bit subversive, it's a little bit not direct. And so yeah, um, is it Jack? 

Is it Harry? Is it... You know. Yeah. And then what's the next obvious name? Rumpelstiltskin. Really? Yeah. That's what you... You know. And of course which is great, 'cause what's his... You know, his response is, "The devil told you that." Yeah. So she says, "Then perhaps it's Rumpelstiltskin." And he immediately says, "The devil told you that." 

David: [01:10:00] Yeah. "The devil told you that." Yeah. Okay. 'Cause he knows he's been had, right? Yeah, yeah. Right. He knows that there's no way she guessed that. Yeah. And it's almost like- I don't know. I don't, I, I don't know how deep you wanna go in this, but it's almost like- Yeah ... we're gonna start with something common. Is it David? 

JR: Is it James? Is it double-backed Nick Jack? And he's like, "What?" Is it Sheepshanks? Yeah. Like, really? That's your third guess? That's the third guess. Come on, man. And there's something about that that sort of implies, I don't know, you know, that she's toying with him a little bit. I also just noticed that each day, and I don't know that he explicitly says this, but each day she gets three guesses, so it's the three again. 

Oh, I didn't... Yeah, I didn't, never caught that. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, but they list three names day one. Day two, these three ridiculous names, and then he said, "Are you Jack? Are you Harry?" And then she said, "Then perhaps your name is Rumpelstiltskin." So it's the third name. Yeah, so it's kind of like a triple-triple, you know. 

You've got the- It's the threes, yeah ... the three days spinning- It's the threes ... the three guesses, and the three g- Yeah ... the three individual guesses- I just noticed [01:11:00] that ... within the three days. Okay, that's cool. All right. Okay, so he jumps up and down and he says, "The devil told you that," and I'll go ahead and just finish this 'cause we're almost done- Yeah 

David: and then we can wrap it up about the imagery in this last part. Right. So it says, "He stomped his right foot so hard that it went into the ground above his knee. Then he seized his left foot with both of his hands in such a fury that he split in two, and that was the end of him." And that's the end of the story. 

So that's kind of a bizarre ending. Yeah. Well- But there's a lot there in just this last part that we covered ... well, okay, to be honest, you and I struggled with this 'cause it's like, okay, if it's about addiction, that doesn't really make sense. If it's about ideology, it doesn't completely make sense. Yeah. 

JR: It's like, what, what do we do with this? And I think we really kinda landed on what I think is a satisfactory interpretation of just that last part, and it's something like, it's something like- [01:12:00] Evil or ... Okay, let me start here. You mentioned the other day in really just conversation that evil has no choice but to consume itself or to consume. 

David: Evil does not create, it only consumes, yes. Evil does not create, it only consumes. And the extension of that then is evil will consume itself eventually. Right, right. And so I look at the last bit of this and say, okay, this is evil ideas, evil ideologies, and it's almost like a ... It's almost telling us sometimes all you have to do is once you name the problem, once you recognize- Yeah 

JR: evil for what it is, just sit back and let it consume itself because that's the only choice it has. That's the only way, way- Yeah ... that it has to move forward. Yeah. And so yeah, you have this image of Rumpelstiltskin stamping his foot and ripping himself in half, and you're like, "That's a bizarre way to go out." 

You know, it's like, it's [01:13:00] almost like anticlimactic, like I don't know. I j- I just wanted something more than that. But I think what it's saying is once you name evil for what it is, once you name the problem and be direct, sometimes it's within us, you know, in so- in some of these- Yeah ... the way we're interpreting this. 

Once you name it, stand back and watch it destroy itself. And this is more on the cultural level. I'm not trying to say that, you know, once you realize you're an alcoholic and you say, "Hey, I'm an alcoholic," that you just have to sit back and watch it destroy its- You know, there's still work to be done. 

Yeah, yeah. But on the cultural level, sometimes there are crazy cultural circumstances that you're like going, "What are we gonna do?" You know, "What are we supposed to do about this new godless idea that's come into our culture?" And sometimes the answer is name it for what it is, but then sit back there and watch it consume itself. 

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Well, uh- And you- Yeah. Go ahead ... you definitely see that at times that- Well, it's not... [01:14:00] Sometimes it's not even naming it. It, I just know that, okay, as a person of faith, sometimes you always freak out at the latest cultural thing that goes against maybe your own morality. We wouldn't have to get into that, but sometimes I don't have enough faith that evil will consume itself, and yet if I just step back, I actually see that's what happens. 

Yeah. This has no life to it, right? Right. This... And when I say this has no life to it, it's to go back to Sleeping Beauty, I guess. Yeah. It's not a life-giving philosophy. It's, it's a, it's a barren philosophy. Yeah. And I don't have to worry that it's actually going to replicate and reproduce to the extent that it defeats God and God's purposes. 

Right. Right? Yeah. There's a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction to evil that says, what if this idea or philosophy burns the world down? Yeah. And it's like, ah, that's not the way evil works. Look, evil is damaging enough as it is- Yeah ... but at the very core of what it is, it's actually self-defeating. And that goes [01:15:00] back to the whole Rumpelstiltskin, I think I got the image right, dancing around the fire. 

We talked about this. You know, Rumpelstiltskin dancing around the fire on one leg saying whatever the- Yeah ... whatever he said, "My name is Rumpelstiltskin," and you're like, you know, well, what a dummy. Why would he run around singing a song to himself? And it's like, yeah, that's what evil does. It's arrogant and it s- it dances so- Yeah 

close to the fire that it consumes itself. So there's a couple things worth mentioning here, is first of all, they go out into the middle of the forest, and that's where this little man lives, which kind of helps explain who he is. They go past the forest. They go past the forest. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So there's a pattern in fairytales where you have the city and then you have the wilderness. 

Mm-hmm. And then you have the other kingdom. Right. To get to other kingdoms, you have to pass through, and this case is like the German forests, right? Right. In Bible, it's probably the desert. Right. But you have to pass through the wilderness in order to get somewhere. Right. But the wilderness is where you encounter [01:16:00] both opportunity and risk and danger, right? 

Right. So sometimes the wilderness has the wise woman, right? Yeah. Or the sage. Right. But sometimes the wilderness has the crazy little man dancing around the fire- Yeah ... who represents... And we talked about this. He represents not necessarily pure evil like a devil like we would think of, but he more is the mischievous agent of chaos maybe. 

Yeah. Right? Yeah. The agent of chaos, that's a better way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's who the little man is. I think actually when the servant sees where he's at, that actually helps explain who he is. Right? So now let's kind of circle back to this idea of why would he call his own name? And we talked about the example of every now and then a criminal will commit some crime and post it on- Right 

David: social media. Right. Yeah. And it's like you just told on yourself. Yeah, you dummy. Why would you not just keep it to yourself? I, [01:17:00] I heard the police say recently, or some police, law enforcement basically said, "Man, social media's made our job so much easier because these people just get on and brag about what they did." 

Yeah. Right? But it's that same thing of dancing around, calling out my own name, right? Yeah. Well, it's, it's the concept of, what is it? A criminal always returns to the scene of the crime. You've heard that in who knows how many Law & Order episodes. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's like why would you do that? Why would you go back to the place where you committed a crime? 

JR: But there's something about the arrogance of evil that wants to indulge in the chaos that it's created. Yeah. Even if you don't wanna call it chaos, it's the one who stirs up chaos, even you don't wanna call it evil. It's the one who stirs up chaos, and this is kind of this self-defeating, self-consuming cycle, right? 

David: Mm-hmm. There's a hubris about it. Yeah. Right? And then it's the desire ... So that's kind of maybe you can see the dancing around the fire, and then it's the, "I can't keep it [01:18:00] to myself." Right. "I wanna tell other people." That's the calling out my own name, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And then it's ultimately, like, the devil told you that. 

So we talked again about how that is Rumpelstiltskin saying, "You must have gone lower than me," right? Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. You- So then it's the devil told you, and then finally it's destroying myself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that, that's really is the pattern here. Right. I think that's so interesting because once you recognize evil for what it is, and you call it out and you name it, it removes it from all its power, and it actually ends up self-defeating. 

Yeah. Okay, so now let's move... Uh, I, I think that's right, but we gotta pivot into some, some kind of real world application. Like, what is a real world explanation of what we're trying to say? 'Cause I think that'd be helpful. Okay, so, well, as kind of a, a wrap-up of the whole thing, right? Yeah. 'Cause we talked about this idea, uh, this... 

You can see the pattern of addiction in this tale, but [01:19:00] we had this conversation about, well, in 17th century Germany, did they have any kind of notion of addiction? Right. You usually don't see the people getting grog at the pub going- ... "Dude, I think you might have a problem." Yeah, yeah. I, I don't know, maybe, but- Yeah 

but there's another level in this, which is this idea... I mean, let's wrap this up by talking about this idea of the power of naming something, that actually defeats it. Yeah. Which can apply to addictions, but it also applies to a lot of things, 'cause we've given a lot of examples. So there's something about on this journey of self-discovery, say, because this is about this miller's daughter- Mm-hmm 

who has a good heart, uh, who's been kind of shafted by her dad, right? Yeah. Given this impossible task. Yeah. It really is a story of discovering herself, finding her voice, and having the willingness to name, and we talked about this, to name not only your [01:20:00] strengths but also your weaknesses Yeah ... right? And when you're able to name it accurately, you actually start to gain a measure of control over it. 

JR: Yeah. I don't know what- No, I think that's right. I think that's right. Okay, we talked about this last episode when we talked about staying on the path, being a virtuous person- Mm-hmm ... aiming up, recognizing when the briars open up and give you an opportunity, and also recognizing when the briars are closed, and don't force it like the other young princes did, right? 

Yeah. Okay, so it's something, it's something like that that makes you say, "Okay, let's move forward. Let's recognize our strengths." 'Cause there's a dual nature to naming. You know, what the father tried to do is tried to force the idea that I have this unbelievable, like, almost miraculous daughter. He tried to name it and embody it into existence. 

I, I was gonna say, he almost gave it a false [01:21:00] name. Yeah. Yeah. It's the parent of the middle school that says, "My kid's going to the NBA." Yeah. It's like, okay, well, maybe, but isn't it a little bit early to guess that? You know, so yeah, it's, it's like sometimes we encounter situations where it's like, "I'm just gonna try to say this over and over. 

My boss likes me, and I'm not gonna get fired. My boss likes me, and I'm not gonna get fired. I'm the best employee that they have." You know, it's like you're almost trying to fool yourself into this false sense of security, and then when the, then when you get the pink slip, you're like, "Well- Well, there's- ... I thought I was the best employee." 

It's like, no, you told yourself that. I've heard people say this, "I'm going to speak it out into the universe and bring it to existence." Right. Right? Yeah. Right. Nonsense. Okay. I, I don't know. I wanna, I don't wanna say- Where do you stand on that? No, I don't wanna say nonsense. There is something about, man, having a goal. 

Okay, uh, we talked about this the other day. It's okay to have a goal, [01:22:00] but be flexible on that goal. Because if you say, "My goal is to get to the top of this mountain," and the path leads you up to the top of another mountain, it does no good to say, "Well, I'm at the top of a mountain, but I was supposed to be over there." 

Well, you were too fixated- Yeah ... on the destination and not focusing on the journey and the way the path guided you. And it's like, look, the path of life can guide you to the top of a mountain. It just may not be your particular mountain of, I want to be a doctor, I want to be in the NBA, I want to be this CEO, wildly successful person. 

Well, look, man, there's very few opportunities for that for people, and it's like, if you just accept what life gives you and you recognize your strengths in yourself, as well as your limitations and your weaknesses, and allow the path to emerge and kind of come in front of you, then you will end up at the top of a mountain perhaps, but you won't be disappointed that you're not at [01:23:00] the top of the particular mountain that you wanted to start out at. 

David: So a lot of people, and you see it in young people, frankly you see it in a lot of people, they're struggling today with meaning, right? Sure. They're struggling to know themselves, and they're struggling to find some kind of fulfillment in the path that they're on One of the most basic ideas to say here's how you start on that journey is you have to be honest with yourself on your strengths, but also on your weaknesses- Oh, yeah 

and your wounds. Yeah. You have to be honest about the blessings and the curses that your family has handed down to you. Right. All that is part of understanding yourself. Yeah. And, and so once you start to understand yourself, but know thyself, right? That's one of the most basic it's- Sure ... in Delphi. It's like the Temple of Apollo, right? 

It's know thyself. Yeah. And [01:24:00] there's more to it than that, but it's one of the most basic things, but it's what people struggle with because a lot of times people will say, "Well, here's what I'm good at," but there's also, I think this is a parable about what are you bad at? Right. Where, where are you broken? 

JR: Yeah. Because that also starts to narrow the paths down. Right. Where are you incomplete? Right. I think this fairy tale is something about having the courage to name specifically your weaknesses, your familial wounds, and be honest with yourself. Yeah. And there's something about naming... Look, you can be vague about... 

David: I hate to keep picking on the guy who lost his job, but- But you know, you can be vague about, "Well, I'm not the most responsible person." And, and there's some, there's a power though in saying, "No, actually, I'm lazy, and I'm too addicted to video games, and it is actually preventing me from moving forward." 

JR: Right. Yeah. Once you have the courage to name that, [01:25:00] now you're actually ready to move forward. No, I'm glad you said that because you're right. Naming it in many times is a courageous act. Yeah. Nobody wants to look in the mirror and say- I'm an ugly person. But we do that all the time. We fake ourse- you know, as far as what's inside. 

You know, I've got a weak heart. I've got a poor work ethic. I've got a lazy constitution. There's all these things about us that we can kind of, if we can name it, we can start to change it. Yeah. And it's like the Alcoholics Anonymous, the very first thing, what's step one? What's the very st- step one. Right. 

I am an alcoholic. I am so, so, and I'm an alcoholic. Right. And the recognition is that you can't start to change something until you have the courage to come out and say- Yeah ...,"Hey, my name is JR and I'm a completely raging, addicted alcoholic." Yeah. It's like good luck trying to change it if you're still kind of, I, I don't know. 

If you- Well, you see the alcoho- you see the alcoholic or the person who struggles with [01:26:00] alcohol, you see them say things like, "Man, I can quit at any time. I just enjoy- Yes ... I just enjoy 24 beers on the weekend." Right. Yeah, yeah. You know? Hey, man, I just come home and drink a few beers. It's not- But you talk to the dude's family and it's like, "Yeah, he drinks three before he goes to work." 

Yeah. And it's like, whoa. And you know, uh, take it past alcoholism and do, do it with anything. Again, the kid who plays too many video games, the person who shops too much. It's- Sure, the workaholic, the- Yeah, it, it's all that. Yeah. So we're not picking on, you know, one particular what bad habit, but you're not... 

David: I think it's a general rule to say you're not gonna get anywhere unless you have the courage to actually name what your problem is. Yeah. Yeah. What is- What is holding you back? Maybe that's a better way to say than what your problem is. Yeah. Yeah. What is holding you back? And there are so many people who say, "Everything else is what's holding me back." 

Yeah. And it's like, that's not my name, right? Right. Right. It's that phrase. Okay. No, that's not the name. So here's a cool, here's a cool idea. Have you talked to people that have all [01:27:00] these weird symptoms, like they'd have no energy or their blood pressure is sky high? You know, it's like I've been to the doctor a dozen times and they don't know what it is. 

JR: And it, and- Yeah ... yeah, we've had this conversation before where you're like, "Man, it's like tell me I've got cancer. Tell me I've got heart disease. Tell me something." Give me a diagnosis. Yes. Name it. That's exactly what this is. Yeah, yeah. Give me a diagnosis so I can move toward healing. But when doctors don't know what it is, when the best physicians are saying, "I, you know, we have no idea why your skin's purple," it's like, well, what, what am I supposed to do moving forward? 

Yeah. And, and so yeah, it's like give me a diagnosis so I can move. That's kind of what we're saying here. Yeah, I think so. It's like look in the mirror and say- Again, to apologies to al- the howchoholics out there, right? You know, look in the mirror and say, "I've been diagnosed as an alcoholic. Now I can move forward. 

I've been diagnosed as a lazy person. I've been diagnosed as a selfish person, and now I can move forward." But if you [01:28:00] don't realize that about yourself, man, you're just languishing in all these weird- Yeah ... symptoms that you don't know what to do with. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a, I think that's a- Yeah 

good way to think about it and a good way to put it. And so it's important to see, because you can get so far removed from what the fairy tale actually says, but the clues have been there all along. Yeah. Right? It's like she was a beautiful girl- Mm-hmm ... which means she was at a, in her heart, a good person. 

V- a virtuous person. Right? Her father kind of wronged her by giving her a wrong name, we might say. Right. Overselling her, right? Yep. And put her in this impossible situation. You have the idea of spinning again, because remember, she didn't have a mother. Right. Yeah. So she doesn't- We haven't talked about that 

David: recognize this essence of womanhood. Yeah, she doesn't have an example to- She doesn't have a role model ... look to. Mm-hmm. So she has no direction, and so she has no idea what the name of the problem is, and the name of the problem, in her case, was Rumpelstiltskin. And when she was able to [01:29:00] name it, it consumed itself. 

Yep. That is the essence of what this story means. Yeah. Man, that's so cool. I love it because, like we've said before, man, the puzzle piece or the Lego just clicks in in a very satisfying way and says, "I think that's absolutely what this is about." And so it becomes this type of thing where we can say, "I don't think that's what this is about. 

JR: This makes perfect sense through this lens." And the other thing we've talked w- about with fairy tales is you're on the right track when your hypothesis about what this means actually explains all the little details- Yeah, the details ... all the way through. Yeah. When all the details fall into place- Yeah 

then you know you're on the right track. So, you know, to continue this idea of how do you think mythically, how do you think in the metaphoric language of the ancient people, ancient fairy tales, ancient myths, and even how do you apply this to the Bible, it's like you have to kinda train yourself to pick up on the, all these little things. 

And that's honestly what we're just [01:30:00] trying to do, you know? Yeah. That's why we have these conversations. Yeah. It's not because we studied this in, i- you know, in university or anything like that. It's like, it's like I'm just interested in it, and these stories have gotta make sense because they've been around for thousands of years. 

And so yeah, man, help us untangle it, man. And if you've got an idea- ... of what's going on that we've missed, and I promise you there's things that we've missed because, again, when you bring your own past into these stories, you'll pick up on all these nuances. Mm-hmm. It's like, man, let us know what we missed 'cause that's w- that's what I wanna know. 

'Cause I really w- do wanna figure out if we're on the right track or not. Yeah. And if you wanna hear more of these, let us know in the comments. Hit Subscribe. I always wanted to do that. I wanna be the guy who goes, "Hit the Subscribe button." That button right there. Right there, right? Right. And let us know and, uh, 'cause we plan on putting out more. 

David: Yeah. I looked today. I think I have 16 fairy tales that I would love to go through and talk about. Dude, I don't have the time. I've got a [01:31:00] full-time job. I can't do this full time, man. All right. I can't spend every week up at this cabin. All right, thanks for checking us out. We will talk to you next episode. 

JR: Yep, can't wait. See you guys.